In episode 91 astrologer Patrick Watson joins the show for a followup discussion about Hillary Clinton’s birth time, in order to talk about some new developments that have taken place over the past few weeks since we originally covered this topic in episode 90.
Since this is a followup discussion to the one we had in episode 90 we would highly recommend listening that that episode first, since this one is mainly meant to fill people in on what happened after we ended the previous episode on a bit of a cliffhanger.
Below you will find links to some of the articles mentioned at various points during the episode, followed by links to download or stream the recording of this episode of the show.
Giveaway Prizes for October/November Announced
At the top of the show I announce our two sponsors for this month, as well as the giveaway that we are doing in cooperation with them for patrons of the show.
For this month’s raffle we will be giving away a pass to the upcoming NCGR 2017 astrology conference, as well as a copy of the astrology software program Delphic Oracle.
For more information about the giveaway and how to enter for a chance to win see the description page for the October giveaway.
Relevant Links for This Episode
Here are some links to pages that we mentioned at different points in this episode:
- The Astrology Podcast episode 90 released September 29: 2016 US Presidential Election Birth Data Issues
- Wall Street Journal article by Yogita Patel on September 29: Who’s Demanding to See Hillary Clinton’s Birth Certificate? Baffled Astrologers
- October 2 YouTube video: interview with Ray Merriman, Shelley Ackerman, and Marc Penfield
- Eric Francis on the TMA blog on October 4: It’s October 2016 And We’re Still Speculating About Hillary Clinton’s Missing Birth Data
- The Guardian on October 12: Astrologers predict the election: Trump is from Mars, Clinton is from Venus
- Los Angeles Times on October 12: These astrologists vow to predict who the next U.S. president will be
- Washington Post article by Justin Moyer on October 14: ‘This is not to be trusted’: Astrologers are battling over Hillary Clinton’s true birth time
- Los Angeles Times on October 18: Astrologers predict a Hillary Clinton victory is in the stars
New Lecture Recordings Mentioned
Two of the lecture recordings from the 2016 ISAR conference mentioned in this episode that are now available for purchase:
- Chris Brennan: Timing Peaks and Transitions in Your Career and Life Direction (zodiacal releasing)
- Leisa Schaim: Repeating Years, Repeating Themes: A Simple But Powerful Technique (annual profections)
Transcript
A full transcript of this episode is available: Episode 91 transcript
Listen to This Episode
You can either play this episode of the podcast directly from the website or download it as an MP3 to your computer by using the buttons below:
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 1:56:47 — 53.9MB)
While someone may or may not be “off”, when one looks at all the various charts and HRC history the 2:08 or 2:18 fit better than any other chart, especially if you turn the charts for partners, home, etc.. Forget the personality differences and objectively look at all the options compared to history and factual knowledge regarding the Clintons, not illusions.
Astrologers that use times based on personal preferences and not facts will be mislead by their own hubris. What someone with any of these charts says is subject to trust or veiling issues. Look at WikiLeaks. Trust is an issue with this person no matter which chart you look at. Can anyone physically go and see the supposed birthchart?
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From the thread: @ skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9257&highlight
Mark Cullen
“However, I corresponded with Zayin Cohen a few weeks ago. Zayin Cohen then claimed the time he had actually found was 02.08am not 02.18am. He said it was incorrectly reported on ADB and elsewhere. However, with the death of Louis Rodden it never got resolved. Like Marc Penfield, Zayin Cohen claimed to have an anonymous source in the Chicago Public Records office. He has long said he cannot give out the certificate or details of the official as this is illegal.
But I have been in contact with Patrick Watson today and he showed me evidence of a FB conversation with Zayin Cohen back in August when he was informed by Zayin Cohen that the right time was actually 01.18am not 02.18am. I am trying not to throw out accusations here but Zayin Cohen is clearly giving out conflicting times. So was the time on the birth certificate always really 02.18am which has been corroborated by Marc Penfield? In which case why is Zayin Cohen now altering his time? Did Marc Penfield really source this directly or is he just using the time that was widely attributed to Zayin Cohen earlier which he now himself disputes? Or maybe Zayin Cohen is playing games with us and the time was always 02.18am. Presumably, like Zayin Cohen , Marc Penfield will not be able to produce a scan of the birth certificate for legal reasons.”
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What does get retracted is the confirmation of the 2:18. This does not refute the 2:08 time. The 2:08 does have the possibility of being correct and the recorder of the data could have transposed the time to 8:02. Irregardless of whether it is 2:08 (more likely) or 2:18 the real Hillary R Clinton now being exposed by the WikiLeaks document releases fits the early a.m. charts rather nicely. Objectivity is key.
The analysis of which chart/time “fits” better is a separate investigation from determining the validity of a source who is proposing a new time from a document, and we have investigated both of those things separately and thoroughly with each proposed time.
The underlying issue here is that Zayin is a liar, and he has given out three different times: 2:18, 2:08, and 1:18. It is obvious then that these were all rectified times to begin with, which gives them no independent value since it means that they were not originally derived from an actual legitimate source, and there is no external non-astrological corroboration for that time.
If you still choose to base your analysis on that time even knowing all of that then that is your prerogative, but it certainly places you in a much weaker position with any conclusions you draw from the chart because then your only authority for starting to use that specific time is that you got it from some crazy astrologer who attempted to rectify it. That doesn’t seem like a very solid basis to proceed from, regardless of whether you feel like the chart fits better or not.
That was the main focus of our discussion here, and I’m not going to get into a debate over which chart people think fits better, as that is kind of beside the point.
We may get a copy of Hillary’s birth certificate in about 6 years, but many birth certificates don’t record the birth time. Mine didn’t in New York which was recorded in 1961. It was even more rare for a birth time to be recorded on such a document in the past (before personal computers). Also keep in mind that different states have different laws about how it’s recorded such as the strange law in (I believe in Pennsylvania, not sure when) that required birth time recorded in standard time at various times in history even if the clock was showing daylight savings time.
I would not be up to predicting with 2:18am. I saw a video clip and was left wondering if the ISAR panel of astrologers had to use it. Basically, roughly it is either 8pm or 8:02am because it rectifies the MC from so many events. It is just too hard to believe this away. Today, I spent a few hours after picking this up again and finished some more and worked out a judgement that it’s the 8:02am and I rectify to 8:01:40am 41n59’07” 87w40’13”
Hillary Clinton … On an energetic level feels pretty divisive. The fact that she herself has given different birth times to astrologers is very frustrating. Why? She could have simply said ‘NO. Not into a bunch of astrologers analysing me’ instead she has contributed to and allowed space for, the current conflict and confusion. I think the Penfield affair reflects badly on ISAR., however, I do sympathise with Mark Penfield – who probably fell in love with his Hillary chart. He made a mistake. Bizarre state of affairs. I have a feeling that we are already having a taste of the Clinton presidency.
Interesting that you say she feels divisive on an energetic level. Precise birth time aside, it can still be said for sure that she has Sun, Chiron, Venus, Mercury and the SN in Scorpio, with Venus square to a Mars Pluto Saturn lineup in Leo. So – energetically two distinct areas of her life are in constant tension and five traditional planets including the Sun and Sun ruler Mars/Pluto are involved. Add that to the Saturn/Pluto conjunction and a Pisces Moon – what else do we really need to know? All this fuss and big egos and waste of everyone’s time over the release of exact time seems pretty petty and embarrassing, adding even more venom to what is already a very ugly campaign, (oh that NASTY Scorpio woman….JK), and that forked tongue man.
This is why astrology used to be kept private and was not popularly disseminated. This kind of mess is where you end up.
What did you say to Hillary when you asked the birth time ? It’s a weird question to ask.
If I had to do that, I think I would just say I’m an astrologer that would love to to do her birth chart – with a big smile. And I would give her my visit card too (hey it could be nice to be the astrologer of the White House lol).
Dear Chris:
I take your point about wanting legitimate or verifiable birth times and sources and you’re right of course. It might be interesting, though, to note that Hillary is a Scorpio, so can we really trust her to tell the truth about her time of birth? Maybe she has been playing with people. 8:02 and 2:08 use the same numbers, and I wouldn’t put it past her to muddy the waters, so to speak.
She has a law degree from Yale, and that’s not easy to get, and we might consider three different midheavens, for 8 am; 8 pm and 2.08 pm.
8am puts 5 Virgo on the MC with Mercury in the 12th and retrograde. I’m not sure if this would make her a lawyer or able to pass bar exams.
8pm puts 5 Pisces on the MC with Jupiter in the 6th in Sagittarius and the Moon in Pisces in the 10th. This is more like a lawyer with a record of public service.
What is interesting is the 2:08 pm chart with 10 Sagittarius on the MC, Jupiter in the 9th in Sagittarius, and Mars, ruling the decanate in the 6th in the same degree as Pluto. This is not bad for all that travel, as well as law and public service.
Just my 2 cents, as they say.
The entire point of this podcast and the last one was pointing out that there was never any legitimate basis for using any of the circa 2:00 am times that came from Zayin to begin with. Zayin used and promoted the 2:18 time for nearly a decade while claiming that it was exact from the birth certificate, and then only recently decided to adjust his rectification to 2:08 in the past few months, which gives the 2:08 time even less standing than the already baseless 2:18 time.
While it is fine if people want to keep using one version of Zayin’s rectified times or the other in their own work (2:18, 2:08, 1:18), I’m not really personally interested in the astrological arguments for why people think that it is still a valid time at this point, and I’d prefer those sorts of discussions about rectifying the chart take place elsewhere.
Thank you for this episode.
Whistleblowing is stressful, and often risky, yet necessary for the free exchange of ideas and the health of any community.
The presentation seemed thorough, rational and fact-based. Moreover, thank you for cogently pointing out that investigating the veracity of a source (or the validity of a document) is different from analyzing which birth time seems best to “fit” an individual.
I commend you both for having the courage of your convictions.
Now that Trump has won, it seems likely that the 8:02 AM birth time is incorrect. When asked, Hillary typically says 8 PM as her time of birth. Maybe we need to stick to the 8 PM time until we have a copy of the birth certificate.
Maybe, but I think there may be an issue with comparing ZR between two candidates without some sort of absolute standard that could guarantee that we’re not comparing apples and oranges. I think a fairly compelling case can be made for a time around 8 am based upon the life and career using ZR spirit, but what we don’t know is if it’s correct to assume that all angular periods have the same level of being centered on the world (or just for a particular nativity or group of nativities). In other words, can we say that Hillary’s angular periods trump Trump’s more cadent periods? It’s something that’s been bothering me if it should be compared in that way. Clearly Hillary peaked, but it just wasn’t enough, and malefics were in her 10th house profection. There are so many factors to fit in that I think it’s humanly impossible to sort them all out unless there’s some rather “large elephant” in the room.
Hello. What does ZR mean?
Zodiacal Releasing
Dear Curtis:
Thanks for that. I googled zodiacal releasing and found an article on John Kerry and his ZRS and how the method shows how two different periods of his life are connected, but then I checked with astrodienst and found that the accuracy of the time of birth used is questionable, so that presumably would change dates, so I’m thinking there must be an easier way to arrive at a conclusion.
I think that the 8 AM (26 October 1947) is correct. Her ascendant lord is Venus. On 8th November 2016, Her Lord of ascendant Venus is dead. Her Lord of fate (Mercury) is dead. Here lord of karma Moon is dead. Here Lord of gain Sun goes in the sign of debilitation. The plant of wisdom Jupiter is in the 12th house (House of losses). So, she lost.
However, her Lord of 7th House (the house of popularity) Mars, is in the sign of exaltation. So she won the popular vote.
Well, using perhaps “modern” techniques, Trump has Solar Arc Pluto conjunct Jupiter, exact now and over Inauguration Day — a signal for success in some area of life.
Meanwhile, Hillary, on the 8:02 am birth time, has Saturn descending below the Ascendant into the first quadrant — usually not a time for outer, public success, but more a time for inward re-visioning. John F. Kennedy won despite this condition, but he was an exception, and his Presidency violently cut short.