The Astrology Podcast
Transcript of Episode 47, titled:
Astrology Forecast and Elections for October 2015
With Chris Brennan and guests Austin Coppock and Kelly Surtees
Episode originally released on September 29, 2015
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Note: This is a transcript of a spoken word podcast. If possible, we encourage you to listen to the audio or video version, since they include inflections that may not translate well when written out. Our transcripts are created by human transcribers, and the text may contain errors and differences from the spoken audio. If you find any errors then please send them to us by email: theastrologypodcast@gmail.com
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Transcribed by Andrea Johnson
Transcription released September 29th, 2024
Copyright © 2024 TheAstrologyPodcast.com
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CHRIS BRENNAN: Hi, my name is Chris Brennan, and you’re listening to The Astrology Podcast. Today is Sunday, September 27, 2015, and this is the 47th episode of the show. In this episode, I’m gonna be talking with Kelly Surtees and Austin Coppock about some of the major astrological alignments coming up over the course of the next month in October of 2015, as well as highlighting some of the most auspicious electional dates for starting different types of ventures using the principles of electional astrology. This episode was recorded in front of a live audience via our monthly webinar format, and the recording will be available in both audio and video formats at theastrologypodcast.com. For more information about Kelly, see her website at kellysastrology.com. For more about Austin, visit his website at austincoppock.com. And for myself, visit chrisbrennanastrologer.com.
This podcast is made possible by listeners of the show who pledge their support through Patreon. If you enjoy the show and would like to support the production of future episodes, then please consider donating a dollar or more through Patreon, and in return you’ll get access to some great subscriber benefits, such as access to a private discussion forum, early access to new episodes, the opportunity to take part in one of our live monthly webinars, and more. For more information about subscribing to the show, please visit theastrologypodcast.com/subscribe. So let’s get started with our topic by welcoming my two co-hosts. Austin and Kelly, welcome back to the show.
AUSTIN COPPOCK: Happy to be here.
KELLY SURTEES: Thanks, Chris.
CB: All right. Well, let’s start with just a few announcements before we jump into the monthly forecast and the elections that I found this month. So, first off, Austin, I think you’ve got the most pressing one. Cuz you have a couple of classes that you’re starting this week, right?
AC: Yeah. I have one class which is starting Wednesday evening and that is my class on the decans. I’m really excited about this class. As a lot of people know, I spent years researching the decans, and I wrote a book about it, and now I’m beginning a six-week class where I’m gonna basically guide everybody through every decan. And so, it’s sort of like the audible and interactive companion to the book. You certainly don’t need to have read the book. So I’m really excited to start teaching this material in an interactive environment. And then on Saturday, this coming Saturday, October 3, I’m gonna begin teaching a basics class on dignity and rulership, looking at the entire stack of traditional dignities and looking at how rulership functions in a chart. That’s sort of a hang-up or a place that people get stuck in their astrological education, so I’m really excited to be able to do a month-long class on that. I think it’s gonna be really good.
CB: Excellent. And, Kelly, your ebook on Saturn in Sagittarius that we talked about in the last episode is now out, right?
KS: It is. It is out, and you can grab it from my website, kellysastrology.com. It’s under the Resources tab, where you’ll find all my ebooks. It’s doing really well. We had a great launch. Lots of people already have a copy. But if you don’t and you would like one, it is like a workbook of Saturn in Sag, full of information on cycles generally, but also that you can then apply to your chart. So there’s a whole series of Check Your Chart sections in the book that make it interactive, I guess. And then the other thing that I’ve got is, at the end of October, I’m starting my next beginners online astrology class. So this is the first time in two years that I’m taking on new students. So for anyone who’s interested, you can find information for that via my website too.
CB: Excellent. That sounds good. Well, I definitely recommend both of your courses. And people can find out more information about Austin’s at austincoppock.com and Kelly’s at kellysastrology.com. As for myself, I’m finishing recording some new revised lectures on time-lord systems right now for my course on Hellenistic astrology. I’m probably gonna be raising the price because I’ve reached now about 70 or 80 hours of lectures and audio in the course. So I’m gonna raise it up a little bit, probably sometime by November. So if you’re interested in signing up for the course at a discounted price, you can check it out at hellenisticastrology.com.
Other announcements, just a couple of things happening in the astrological community that might be worth mentioning, first, Kepler College recently reopened their library through the efforts of three astrologers Jenn Zahrt, Wonder Bright, and Shannon Garcia. They took the library—which had been in storage for several years, after Kepler fell on hard times—and recently moved it to a new office. And they’re gonna be reopening it soon—in the next month or so, I believe—and offering access to the public. And it’s probably one of the best astrological libraries in the world, and it’s now available in Seattle, if you happen to be in the area or happen to be visiting. So I think you’ll be able to find out more information about when it’s available at kepler.edu.
Other than that, another announcement, there’s a new astrology-themed movie called Changing of the Gods which recently launched a Kickstarter campaign. And right now, as of this recording, they’re about halfway to their goal of $100,000 in order to fund the movie. It’s based on the work of Richard Tarnas and especially some of his work on outer planet cycles. It’s largely gonna be focused on the recent square of Uranus-Pluto and some of the things that coincided with in terms of changes in society, culture, and world events, and they’re shooting for a 2017 release. So if you’re interested in finding out more information about that, just do a search for ‘Changing of the Gods Kickstarter’, and I think you’ll find the movie.
Other than that, one thing I did want to put out—mainly for the listeners of the podcast that are listening to this episode once it’s released—is I’m starting to think about potentially doing a conference with contributors to the podcast sometime early next summer. So I’d like to just put some feelers in order to gauge interest, if people would be interested and would be willing to pay to attend a conference in person that would be put on by people. A core group would be me and Austin and Kelly—and maybe a few other people like perhaps Benjamin Dykes and Demetra George—basically doing a conference and doing an intensive program on many different aspects of astrology. So if you’d be interested in attending something like that potentially, then please send me an email or post a comment in the Comments section to let us know. All right, well, that’s it for the announcements for this month. So let’s get into our topic. Kelly, what are some of the major astrological alignments that you’re looking forward to and that kind of characterize October for you?
KS: I’m just laughing from our Saturn in Sag episode where I’m like, “Oh, this is gonna be great,” and then Austin’s like, “Yes, and this is gonna be challenging.” So I’m looking forward to your take, Austin. I guess the biggest aspect for October is Jupiter in Virgo trine Pluto in Capricorn; so two of the larger or more significant planets. That aspect is going to form mid-month, October 11-12, around 13° Virgo and Capricorn. That’s actually the Canadian Thanksgiving long weekend, which may or may not be of interest. And then, in addition to that Jupiter-Pluto trine of the earth signs, Mars will also trine Jupiter. So Mars will also trine Pluto, and then Mars will then conjunct Jupiter, and that’s around October 17-18. So we’ve got some triggers to those longer trends of Pluto in Capricorn and Jupiter in Virgo. So the keyword that I came up with to really summarize it all the way down was this idea of ‘productivity’ and ‘getting things done’ or ‘cutting away things that aren’t efficient and aren’t functional or aren’t supporting progress’. So I’m interested to hear what you guys think about particularly the Jupiter trine Pluto.
CB: I’ll let Austin take that. But while he’s doing it, I’m gonna actually share the chart for right now.
KS: Oh, excellent.
CB: Since we’re doing this partially as video, that is an option. So, Austin?
AC: Well, I suppose I was a little blinded to Jupiter’s trine with Pluto because of all of the planets in Virgo during October.
KS: Yes.
AC: And I have sort of this doctor’s habit of looking over charts and trying to find the problems—
KS: Love it.
AC: —being that those are the things I need to solve. But, yeah, Jupiter trine Pluto is interesting. When Jupiter eventually retrogrades back, does it station right next to a trine with Pluto?
KS: I’m gonna double-check.
AC: I imagine it’ll station pretty close.
KS: Yeah, 13. It’s a little behind actually. It’ll be at 13 when it stations in May 2016. Pluto will be at 17 Cap at that point.
AC: Okay. So we’ll get a full three trines between bodies.
KS: Yes. Well, this is the first.
AC: So that helps kind of contextualize this, in October, the sort of emergence of an opportunity (Jupiter) to improve the way that we are dealing with this ongoing initiation that Pluto in Capricorn is conducting, right? Pluto’s been in Capricorn since 2008 and will be there for quite some time yet. We’ve got almost I believe 10 years left. I suppose when I’m thinking about this, what is it that Pluto in Capricorn has been teaching? Probably because of the television I watch, the thing that I’m thinking about right now is The Walking Dead as far as what is Pluto in Capricorn teaching, right? The ‘initiation’—which is sort of my new pet word for what Pluto does—is an initiation into what happens when there’s not enough. What are the real pressures that our material needs put on our lives? If you watch The Walking Dead or a lot of programs, there’s this, “Oh, my God, there’s not enough,” and what does that do to people. And so, what’s called for is this sort of adaptation to the environment, right? We need to figure out, okay, the world is changing, and so, how do we need to change with it? But how can we change to become more practical, heartier, better survivors of whatever world that we find ourselves in without sacrificing the soft and tender bits that ‘make us human’? And so, Jupiter’s time in Virgo, it’s Jupiter in an earth sign. It’s in a trine. It’s compatible by element, by triplicity. And so, it’s offering us this opportunity to sharpen up the details to improve what we’re doing, not necessarily in a dramatic way but in a microscopic way, right? And so, I don’t know, that’s a little bit or my thinking on that. Do you have any responses to that?
CB: What was that, Kelly?
KS: I said I like the idea of sharpening up the details. And the idea of sharpening up the details—particularly with Mars going into Virgo as well, where it’s gonna spend all of October—I think one of you, maybe Chris, had said it’s a very ‘Virgo’ October, and it really is. We’ve got Mars and Jupiter—two superior planets—in the same sign, Venus coming in. Venus has been trying to get in Virgo for months. She got delayed by that retrograde in Leo. And so, there’s a real emphasis I guess on the Virgo approach, or that idea of the focus on efficiency and detail and specifics. It’s just interesting that in addition to that we are getting these trines thrown out to Pluto in Capricorn. So it’s sort of a highlighting or perhaps an emphasis on that longer Pluto in Capricorn theme as well.
CB: Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting that, for most of the month, Mars comes in and kind of crashes Jupiter’s party in Virgo, where it’s kind of been hanging out and doing relatively okay there, especially as it’s moved past the square with Saturn. But then eventually Venus shows up and most of the month is this interesting exchange between—at the beginning of the month—Venus and Jupiter enclosing Mars in a besiegement, where each benefic is on either side of a conjunction, and that continues. And they actually trade off a few times throughout the course of the month of Venus and Jupiter being on either side of Mars, which is kind of positive—especially when I get into the elections—in terms of downplaying some of the more negative tendencies of Mars going through Virgo and perhaps allowing for more of positive or constructive outlet for whatever that indicates.
AC: Well, one thing about Mars in Virgo—and I’m thinking dignity here—Mars is the only one of those three planets that’s considered to be even reasonably comfortable in Virgo.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And Jupiter is very far from home and Venus is often considered to be in her fall, whereas Mars at least has a triplicity dignity in Virgo. And if we think about the type of labor that Virgo entails, it’s not contrary to martial traits. You’re going around and doing a bunch of stuff and getting everything done and then polishing all the details—that is somewhat martial work. It’s certainly more martial than it is Venusian or Jupiterian, right? Jupiter’s all about, “Oh, let the little things slide and just focus on the big picture,” and Venus is having to do with ease and comfort and luxury. And so, not to contradict what you’re saying, Chris, but perhaps just to add to it, the Mars will signify for many people the labor that needs to be done, as well as the thrust towards that. Yeah, these things need to get done and there’s a little fire in the belly, at least when Mars is not opposing Neptune, which is another thing that all these planets in Virgo will be doing. They’ll trine Pluto—which is fine—but they’re also gonna have to oppose Neptune, and Jupiter’s already done that.
KS: We’ve got Mars around the 6th of October opposing Neptune and Venus around the 16th.
CB: Yeah, and that becomes a huge issue in the elections because actually most of the elections I end up recommending this month in October are Scorpio rising elections where Mars is the ruler of the ascendant. Although you run into this issue where—during the first part of the month—it’s applying to Neptune all the way until the 8th. But by the 8th and afterwards, it’s separating, so you get a little bit of alleviation from the tension with that significator. Maybe I should actually get into some of those elections, some of the first elections for October, since we’re already talking about Mars and some of those Virgo placements. So, yeah, like I said before, one of the issues that I ran into in looking at elections for this month is that I actually ran into this issue, first, with Patrick Watson, because he is getting ready to have a baby, and it’s supposed to due sometime in October and they might have had the option to do a cesarean section. And so, he almost had to pick the birth chart again for his second child, and he was running into this issue where it had to be sometime during the day, obviously, when the doctor was awake and at work, and preferably sometime in the morning, because the surgery is usually done in the morning when it’s planned ahead of time. So I’ll pull up one of the charts right now to show you what I’m looking at for the election.
AC: So this is when we should have our babies?
CB: One of the problems or the downsides is if you want to have ‘evil’ babies, this is the election to go with. Patrick and I, we had this debate, and it was an interesting conceptual and philosophical debate, because we basically had two signs to choose from. There was either—and maybe I should do this as the ‘animate chart’ feature. There was an option of either doing Scorpio rising or Sagittarius rising as the chart for that day. And when you do the elections for this month, really, those are mainly the two signs that you would go with anyways for most daytime elections—either a Mars-ruled ascendant or a Jupiter-ruled ascendant, since most of the other ones get ruled out for a good duration of the month. So let me share the ‘animate chart’ feature, so that I can show you the specific distinction between those two. Okay, there it is. So here’s the Scorpio rising chart. And so, with the Scorpio rising chart, you have Scorpio rising, and you have Mars in the 11th house in a day chart and applying to a conjunction with Jupiter versus if you delay it by a couple of hours—let’s say three hours—then you have Sagittarius rising and you have Jupiter ruling the ascendant, but then you have Mars applying to it. And in a day chart, due to the principle and the concept of sect, Jupiter is the most positive planet in day charts, whereas Mars is the most negative or challenging planet in day charts.
So the question becomes—which is especially relevant if you’re trying to pick the birth chart of a person, but to a lesser extent, it’s also relevant if you’re trying to choose an election—do you want the ruler of the ascendant to be the most positive planet in the chart? So do you want it to be Sagittarius rising with Jupiter as the ruler of the ascendant? So the most positive planet in the chart is the ruler of the ascendant, and thus, representing the native or whatever is initiated at that time, but then it has the most negative planet in the chart applying to a conjunction with it, so that there’s some kind of external force or external person or circumstance or something that’s moving towards it in the future and will eventually complete a conjunction with the ruler of the ascendant, that represents either the person most closely or the election most closely. The alternative is, do you want Scorpio rising, so that the most negative or difficult planet in the chart is Mars and is the ruler of the ascendant itself, but the ruler of the ascendant is applying to a conjunction with the most positive planet in the chart? So it essentially just becomes the distinction, do you want to make yourself the most negative planet in the chart, so that there’s something essentially wrong with you, or something that you do causes problems either in your life or in the election itself, but you’ll still meet with good fortune in the future and things will work out positively for you at some point because your significator is moving towards the most possible scenario? Or do you want your significator to be the most positive, so that you or whatever you initiate is essentially positive or is a do-gooder in some sense, but then you get this negative external circumstance that eventually befalls you at some point and causes major problems in terms of your success or failure in the future?
What we chose in the end—at least certainly from the natal perspective, and I think even from the electional perspective—was it made more sense to make your significator the one that’s more difficult, essentially, the malefic. Because then at least what you’re doing is you’re prioritizing the person or the election and their internal safety or coherency. You’re prioritizing them and either the person that’s born at that time or the election that’s born at that time, and you’re ensuring that they’ll have positive things developing in their future rather than the reverse, in saying that they’re positive inherently, but they’re gonna meet with terrible circumstances. I guess that was the debate we ran into. And so, that led me to recommend this chart over some of the other possible ones. So it has Scorpio rising, Mars applying to a conjunction with Jupiter, the Moon in Cancer in the ninth whole sign house, and the Moon is applying to a square with the Sun in Libra, and more importantly, a sextile with Jupiter in Virgo in the 11th. So it’s a pretty strong chart. The major downside with the chart—or the area where there will be problems—is the ruler of the ascendant is Mars in a day chart in the 11th house. So you, or whatever you initiate at that time, could cause some tension or some strife in the area of friendship and alliances. But, ultimately, I think with Jupiter being applied to it, things will work out for the best and be sort of okay. So that’s my first election. What do you guys think? Or what are your thoughts on that debate?
AC: I think there are two many mitigating factors to discuss in this format.
KS: Love it, Austin.
CB: Sure.
KS: It’s a big topic, isn’t it? A big, philosophical topic.
CB: Right. What are the other factors involved besides just those two placements?
AC: I mean, there’s the sect light. Do you want the sect light in the 12th or the 11th? It’s kind of a big deal.
CB: Yeah, that was one of my alternate charts. If you wanted to focus on the Sun, for example, and focus on the sect light, there was an earlier chart, on October 4, that would work. It wasn’t great because I didn’t feel like the ruler of the ascendant was very well-placed. For example, let me—
AC: I can look through that day’s elections. Are there no good night charts? Cuz we have that nice—
KS: You can’t do a night chart for an elected C-section.
AC: Oh, I thought this was a general election that possibly could be used for a C-section. I thought this was one of Chris’ general elections.
KS: Oh, I beg your pardon.
CB: Yeah, it is one of the general elections. Although I had some problems with the night charts. And one of the issues I found is just I tend to favor night charts. Most people give me difficulties if I tell them they have to start their business at 2:00 in the morning, so I tend to favor the day charts just in terms of my focus in general. Although, you’re right, you could check out the night charts. One of the problems I had around this time is because Saturn is so closely squared to Mars and to Venus—and to a lesser extent, Jupiter, during this time—if you switch it to a night chart, you start getting some major problems with Jupiter afflicting the three other planets around Virgo in most of October. So this is the alternate chart though. If you wanted to focus on the sect light, you could do Libra rising, with Venus in Leo in the eleventh whole sign house. So, again, it’s an 11th house-focused chart. Venus is exchanging signs. It’s not a full mutual reception, but it’s a kind of loose mutual reception where the Sun and Venus are in each other’s domiciles, and the Moon is in Cancer in the 10th, applying to the square with the Sun, but also a sextile with Jupiter, which is now, unfortunately, in the 12th. So that’s an alternate chart if you wanted to prioritize the sect light, though the Sun is not in great condition anyways due to its placement in Libra. Although that’s not a huge deal-breaker.
Yeah, so that’s the first election, the Scorpio rising election and that general debate about this issue that came up. Cuz that actually came up cuz somebody asked me recently and raised a philosophical issue, but it raised an issue I’ve run into a couple of times, which is I’ve had a few astrologers in the past object to the concept of sect with me. And for the most part, most astrologers are pretty onboard with this. They learn about it and they’re like, “Oh, yeah, that works really well. I’m surprised this concept has only been recovered in the past 20 years and we didn’t use it already.” And everybody’s kind of surprised that astrologers don’t have this distinction between day and night charts already built into contemporary, 20th and 21st century astrology. But I’ve had at least a handful or maybe two or three, maybe four astrologers tops who’ve I’ve come across every once in a while that really object to the concept of sect. And one of the things that I found funny—because it came up again with this other person recently—is the people that tend to object to it or have a hard time with sect happen to be people where the malefic—that’s the most difficult one due to sect—is also the ruler of the ascendant. Because in those instances, sometimes when the malefic that’s the most difficult one in the chart is also the ruler of the ascendant, the native themselves in some ways takes on the agency of the malefic. And so, they have some way of either directly or indirectly causing some tensions or difficulties or problems in a certain part of their lives, usually dictated by whatever house that malefic is placed in. But it raised an interesting question just in terms of the distinction you get into when you’re talking about the rulers of the houses and how the ruler of the ascendant shows the native themselves and what they do and bring about in their lives, whereas the rulers of the other houses indicate other people and circumstances and events that will occur in the person’s life that are not necessarily represented by the native themselves. So do you guys have any thoughts on that?
AC: Well, I’ll say two things. I think, one, sect is tremendously useful and helpful and descriptive. Some people call it a form of accidental dignity and very useful for understanding what power a planet has in a particular chart. But I would also maybe not re-characterize all opposition to sect as people who have ‘bad’ charts.
CB: No. I’m not trying to characterize it like that. I’m just saying I have noticed two or three people who have objected to it, not strongly. The one person I know that’s ever really gone overboard in objecting to it was because of that implication, partially, but also because he just couldn’t see it because it was not in his field of vision. He was expecting some external thing that was a problem in that area of his life, but that wasn’t the issue at all. I’m not saying that you have to have that sort of issue in order to object to sect. I’m just saying I’ve noticed a bit of a pattern, which is an issue if you’re trying to evaluate the efficacy of the technique, if the ruler of your ascendant happens to be one of those planets.
AC: Yeah. Well, I have the out-of-sect malefic—which is Mars, in my case, for a day chart—very near, some might say, conjunct the Sun, which is the sect light. And so, I’ve definitely struggled with not messing things up, shall we say. For me, it’s ended up being a lifelong focus on martial arts as a form of self-refinement, which is dealing with the out-of-sect malefic Mars, where the potential problems are. And so, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about being attacked or using this sort of attack or this negative terminology to characterize the action of the out-of-sect malefic. And so, having that conjoined my Sun, I’ve spent a lot of time considering that and sort of placing myself in the context of that. So I appreciate you are your own worst enemy or you are considering situations where there’s confrontation and that might be distracting, if the out-of-sect malefic Mars in a day chart is prominently placed and configured to those factors which represent the native. If that makes any sense.
CB: Yeah. I mean, it’s just a consideration that has to be brought into account. And it’s interesting because it’s something I never would have considered in modern astrology. What would you expect to see in a chart if a person caused themselves problems in their life or was the reason for their own downfall, in an extreme, extreme sense versus what would you expect if a person was constantly to run into external opposition or fell into hardship as a result of other people in the person’s life? Like what would you expect to see? And that’s one of the things, the distinction between whether it’s tied into the ruler of the ascendant or whether it’s coming from other rulers of the chart. All right, so let’s get back to some of the actual astrological weather. Aside from the Jupiter-Pluto trine, what are some of the other major configurations this month?
KS: Well, as Austin pointed out, we do have a big opposition to Neptune. So we’ve got Mars opposite Neptune early in the month, around October 6-7-8. And that’s probably one of the most problematic aspects of the month which we should probably definitely talk about. And the other thing—given that it’s October and we’ve got the Sun in Libra—we’re also gonna have Mercury, once it gets out of retrograde, going through Libra. And so, both those planets will be squaring Pluto and opposing Uranus, and that’s gonna create a little bit of hiccup along the way. So the Mars opposite Neptune and Venus will also oppose Neptune mid-month. So there in terms of things to watch out for—and I love, Austin, how you said this—so often in our client work, we’re looking for the problems, because that’s where we have to strategize or provide support to the client. So in terms, yes, of scheduling for the month, the interesting thing about the Mars-Neptune opposition—just in terms of the timing—is that October 6-7 is right around Mercury’s station direct, and Venus is just crossing into Virgo; so coming out of her shadow, from her retrograde. So that October 6-9 we’ve got the blurriness or the confusion or that idea of ‘foggy’ facts of Mars-Neptune, people not seeing clearly or not planning well. With Neptune, I often think you don’t even know what you don’t know. And at least if you can be mindful of the fact that there’s something you don’t know, but it’s just gonna take a few days to be clear, that idea of not knowing what you don’t know is really important. And then we’ve got Mercury’s station on top of that. So I think the two create this general confusion or blocked energy around that early part of the month. What do you guys think about that?
CB: Definitely, yeah. And that’s like a huge distinction with the second-half of the month where we’re finally moving away from that. And I think the Jupiter-Neptune opposition was something we focused on a bit in talking about September because it was like one of the primary signatures. And I definitely noticed it in some of the elections that I ended up recommending because some of the Sagittarius or Pisces rising charts—where Jupiter was the ruler of the ascendant—were the only charts that I really could recommend in terms of the ruler of the ascendant being well-placed. But most of the month, the major downside to those elections was Jupiter applying to that opposition with Neptune. Issues with things being more nebulous or more murky or the details getting lost and other things like that really did seem to come up in some of those elections. Not in a way that meant that you shouldn’t have done it, or meant that it was a major disaster, but it was definitely very prominent as a theme. And it’ll be interesting to see with Mars and Venus moving in there how that becomes more prominent in different ways versus the second-half of October where that suddenly becomes much less of an issue.
KS: Very different.
AC: Yeah, I mean—
KS: Yeah, sorry, you go, Austin.
AC: Oh, I was just gonna say on a broader level, October sees two retrograde cycles finish up, right? We finally move out of the shadow of the Venus retrograde cycle. Venus has been direct for a while, but she’s still in those degrees which she retrograded through, and it’s those degrees which represent the complicated issues which have arisen over the summer. But relatively early in the month, Venus clears those. Part of her entry into Virgo is this not necessarily finishing up—because we don’t always finish things—but it’s sort of no longer time to dwell on particular issues. Things were kind of moving beyond that, right? And then, also, within the first-half of the month, Mercury goes direct. And in addition to these shorter-term factors—the retrogrades of Venus and Mercury—we’re sort of being introduced into a new set of affairs, which we discussed last month, which is, hey, Saturn’s in Sagittarius almost until 2018. This Jupiter in Virgo thing is through. And so, whereas the summer was very much sort of dealing with the themes and topics which have been a big deal over the last couple of years, and September has been this sort of changing of the guard—the eclipses, Saturn moves, etc., etc.—October is very an entry point into a state of affairs that we’re gonna be dealing with for a while. And with all the planets in Virgo, there’s a lot to do, right? There’s a lot to do to be ready for this
these new set of themes, this new configuration.
KS: A lot to do. That’s a really good take on the Virgo energy. Cuz the other thing that happens early in the month is that eclipse season ends around October 11-12 too. So there is a real transition or shift around that just as we head into mid-month, I guess. And, yeah, Austin, I think you put it beautifully, this idea that with all this activity with Jupiter in Virgo, there’s also a little square from Venus to Saturn this month as well, and Saturn of course now in Sag, so we’re starting to get some of these themes. So what is Saturn in Sag gonna be about? What is Jupiter in Virgo going to be about? And I think that’s why it’s so important to notice some of those almost passing or smaller aspects because they help draw out the themes. So Jupiter in Virgo—Jupiter in Virgo touches Pluto in Capricorn, and we get a sense about what those two cycles are about. Mars in Virgo joins Jupiter in Virgo, and it may not necessarily be the most positive of combinations, but events and actions that come out around that time are somehow tied to the theme or the cycle of that Jupiter in Virgo.
CB: And when is Jupiter—or sorry, when is Venus getting out of its shadow again?
KS: October 8th or 9th. She goes into Virgo, and then as soon as she gets up to 1° Virgo, she’s out of the shadow, cuz she went retrograde at 0 Virgo.
CB: Okay. So that’s right when Mercury’s stationing direct in Libra as well?
KS: Yeah, it basically happens within 24 hours of each other.
CB: That’s really interesting. I mean, that was one of the things Nick was really emphasizing during our webinar, which was just the Venus retrograde is not over until it passes that shadow degree. So until the end of the first week of October basically, we’re still in ‘Venus retrograde’ land, and many of the people that are affected by that, or where there’s been a series of events in their life that have been keyed into that are still dealing either with those events or the aftereffects of those events in a very real way. One of the things that I thought was funny that I wanted to mention—that’s like a continuation since we’ve been talking about this Venus retrograde all summer—is I started noticing a bunch of celebrity magazines and other stuff like that, like People magazine calling this ‘the summer of splits’ and the Huffington Post calling it ‘the summer of celebrity splits’. And if you do a search for this (‘the summer of splits’) there’s just all sorts of tabloids and other news stations and things like that talking about the subjectively high number of major celebrity couples that have decided to break up over the course of this summer. And it’s been kind of an interesting phenomenon to see that—we anticipated the Venus retrograde coming up—but then seeing that work out in this kind of interesting and notable way with something like that. So that seems to have been one of the themes. And I expect many of the people that went through things like that are probably still dealing with some of the immediate aftereffects until we pass that shadow after the first week of October.
KS: Yeah. And I just checked the date, Venus comes out of shadow by about the 9th of October, but that’s the day that she squares Saturn in Sag as well. It’s like she just gets out of the shadow and then, bam, here’s Saturn in Sag. And that’s tricky. Venus and Saturn—I don’t know. Ben writes in his book, Traditional Astrology for Today—a kind of beginner traditional astrology book—he talks about Venus and Saturn both being interested in establishing things that are going to last. But I suspect that the Venus square Saturn will bring a test of some kind, where there’s a challenge or a threat to a commitment or security. It’s like, are the foundations as strong as you think? And some adjustments may be required.
CB: Yeah, that sounds like it’s saying it’s really over by that point, at least for the people where—
KS: For the people where ‘being over’ has been the theme.
CB: Right.
AC: Wherever you’re dealing with a Venus and Saturn combination, you’re looking at the structure of relationships and agreements between people. And it’s also important to note that this is the third square between Venus and Saturn, right? Venus’ square to Saturn is absolutely part of her whole retrograde cycle. And so, in addition to moving out of the degrees, finishing up this set of aspects with Saturn is a really important part of Venus’ cycle this year.
CB: Definitely.
KS: Yeah. And I guess the difference on this square is that it’s happening from Virgo to Sag, whereas the last two squares were Leo to Scorpio.
AC: Which is very interesting cuz the Venus retrograde cycle largely took place in Leo and configured itself to Saturn in Scorpio, which is this sort of chapter of collective and individual life that we’re kind of moving out of, right? And now we’re moving into Saturn in Sag. This new chapter is dawning with its own difficulties and challenges and advantages, right? And so, Venus ends up sort of having to come to terms with that. With Venus-Saturn, we’re talking about the structure of an agreement. We’re talking about the nature of the contract either between entities or people, right? The contract is based on the needs of the time, what is necessary. And so, Venus is about being happy with things or being able to establish harmony with things. And so, this last Venus-Saturn square was about figuring out, okay, what is this new deal? How do I get—maybe not comfortable—but how do I come to terms with where things have started to go and where it seems like they’re gonna be going for a while? Who determines with this new chapter? And its structure.
CB: It’s interesting that there’s a whole pile-up in Virgo at that time. You have Mercury stationing direct, but then also the Moon in Virgo, which hits that Venus-Saturn square at the same time. It’s also at the very end of its waning cycle, so it’s getting ready to hit a New Moon in Libra like a couple of days later. But that’s almost implying some sense of closure and things ending, or at least finishing up that chapter in some sense.
KS: Yeah, very much about an ending. And I liked something Austin just said there I wanted to bounce—the idea of the structure and the agreements between people, and that under something like a Venus-Saturn angle, it’s almost like having to think about whether the agreements you have are still suitable for the future, cuz the agreements we have usually originate sometime in the past. And then you get this angle, like a hard Venus-Saturn or what have you, between the people that are important: professional partnerships, family relationships, romantic liaisons. It’s about reflecting on, and when necessary, changing or ending those agreements that have become dated or that circumstances have now moved beyond, I guess.
CB: Definitely. And for many people, I’m sure that’s taking things back years and years into the past, if we’re talking about questions surrounding long, established relationships. Although even in the short term, Austin’s comment about this being the third square in the cycle, it takes us all the way back to about July 12, which was the first time that Venus squared Saturn at 28 Leo and 28 Scorpio. So we’re talking about—in some instances, for people that are dealing with this as more of a short-term thing—a series of events or circumstances that have been playing out over the course of the summer that may have their origins back in the middle of July.
KS: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s good to kind of hone in a little bit on Venus in Virgo for a number of reasons. She’s not super comfortable there. It is the sign of her fall. But in October, we have two lunations. We have the Libra New Moon, and we also have the Taurus Full Moon. So Venus in Virgo is just bringing something extra in—that idea that Venus is the ruler of both the New Moon and the Full Moon that we’re gonna have in October, and she will be ruling those New and Full Moons from her place in Virgo.
AC: That’s an interesting point.
CB: Nice. All right, let’s see, so we covered the Jupiter trine Pluto, the Mars conjunct Jupiter, and the pile-up in Virgo. Are there any other major—
KS: I didn’t, Austin, if you wanted to speak a little about the Mars opposite at all, cuz we sort of mentioned it, but didn’t.
AC: Sure. I’ll just say a couple of things. One of the things that I see—where you have a strong Mars-Neptune configuration—is that it soon takes the edge off the Mars if you’re experiencing Mars as a malefic. And one of the very common ways people experience Mars as a malefic by transit is that a particular area of their life gets really busy and stressful and they feel like they don’t have enough energy. Mars often sets a punishing pace. A lot of times a configuration to Neptune will actually be experienced as a relief from that tension, cuz Neptune and Mars, Mars is trying to drive a tank into the ocean, right?
CB: Right.
KS: Great.
AC: Mars is action. Temporarily, it’ll neutralize it, and so it can be that a certain number of people will experience it as a period of relief. And then in terms of if you’re more identifying with the Mars—or you’re the martial figure and you want to go get things done from acting ‘Mars in Virgo’, the gears or something—and you’re running around trying to fix things and trying to accomplish things on your to-do list, there may be a period of confusion while Mars is opposite Neptune, where it’s not clear what the priorities are. And some people may work really hard to accomplish something that didn’t end up being important. Neptune has this power to delude people. I would say those are the two ways it’ll go for people: one, relief, and then, two, not knowing what direction to turn one’s efforts.
CB: That makes a lot of sense. I mean, in terms of that, what’s the solution to Mars-Neptune problems? If you run into a Mars-Neptune problem, how do you deal with it if you’ve driven your tank into the ocean, so to speak?
KS: Start bailing water out or swim.
AC: Wait for the tide to go back out.
CB: So what’s that saying? There’s another saying like that about trying to grip sand or something like that, like a fistful of sand. And the harder you squeeze, the more it slips between your fingers. Is that the type of analogy you’re using?
AC: I think that will be the experience for some people. When you’re gripping sand, you really haven’t got your hands around the problem, you’re digging for it. When I’ve seen difficulties which are signified by Mars-Neptune come up for people, usually what happens is that there’s a period of confusion and maybe seeking false answers or answers that don’t end up being answers. The real challenge is to correctly identify what the problem is, and then once that veil has been torn aside, then it’s just a normal problem. But that’s difficult—actually identifying it and not wasting one’s efforts or emotional energies in trying to just move forward quickly and solve the problem when you don’t know what the answer is, right? It’s like if you’re having computer problems, a lot of times you don’t know what the problem is. You can’t just attack the problem because you don’t know what it is. So I would say if you run into difficulties during that period, spend some time identifying what the problem is first.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah. So it’s almost like taking a step back or hitting ‘pause’ so that you can get a better sense of the picture kind of thing.
CB: That makes sense.
AC: Yeah.
CB: Well, then that brings me to some of the other Mars elections basically. The ones I’d really start recommending, the Mars elections—that you can use if you’ve got time to pick and you can wait and get past the first week of October—are some of those Scorpio rising elections where Mars is finally separating from Neptune. So while you still have some of the tensions associated with that opposition, at least you start getting them as things that are moving into the past, rather than developing and coming up as obstacles in the future. So the first one of those is right here, on October 8, and it has Scorpio rising, Mars in Virgo in the eleventh whole sign house again, applying more closely, within about 4° to a conjunction with Jupiter, so it’s getting really tight. Mercury is in the 12th, along with the Sun, but they’re stationing direct at this point. The Sun’s 12th house placement—which Austin had objected to earlier—is mitigated through the close sextile to the midheaven, which is part of why I chose this time, around 9:00 AM, in order to put that midheaven exactly sextile or as close to sextile as you can get to the degree of the Sun, in order to help build the sect light out a little from that declining or that cadent position. And, yeah, you can see that Mars is now about a degree off of separating from Neptune, so it’s still pretty tight. But again, for just about any election, applying aspects are gonna be a bit more potent and more prominent, and potentially, when they’re difficult, more problematic when they’re applying, and slightly less problematic and less challenging—especially as things develop in the future—when they’re separating, as in this chart. So that’s one I’d recommend. And then another one I would recommend is October 14.
So by this point, it’s the same chart, but now Mars is within about a degree of conjoining Jupiter, and it’s enclosed on the other side by Venus, which is now at 5° of Virgo. It’s out of its shadow, it’s fully moving direct, and it’s about to start picking up pace and moving swiftly again. And basically Mars, as the ruler of the ascendant, is getting sandwiched between the two benefics. The Moon is in Scorpio, which most people otherwise wouldn’t recommend. Although I do have it applying to a close sextile with Mars with reception. So if you’re gonna get a positive Scorpio Moon, or a Scorpio Moon that’s gonna work out somewhat constructively, then this is probably gonna be a chart closer to matching that compared to anything else, where you might run into more problems in terms of a Scorpio Moon-type placement. So this is one of the later Scorpio rising elections I would recommend. I think there might be a few more that you could do, but this is probably the best one of that month. It’s either the one that takes place on October 8 or the one that takes place on October 14.
KS: Quick question, Chris, on this October 14 election.
CB: Sure.
KS: I mean, obviously, it’s very Mars, very Mars. What kinds of things would this election chart be good for?
CB: Sure. So when you’re dealing with Mars elections, and especially Scorpio elections, the year that I lived with Robert Zoller, one of the funny ‘Zollerisms’ that he told me once is he said that Mars rules both Aries and Scorpio, but Mars in Aries is like a machine gun, but he said Mars in Scorpio is like a sniper rifle.
KS: Yeah, great.
CB: So I think—especially when you combine that with Mars being in Virgo—of that idea of focusing in on specific things with a sort of intent and fixity and determination, like things that really have to go all the way and that you have to put everything into, but you have to do it in a really determined and methodical sense. In the broadest scheme of things, I think that’s what this type of election would be appropriate for, and when described in that way, could be applied to a number of different areas or a number of different ventures or things like that successfully. So I think more specifically that if you try to tie it into methodical and technical things that are tied in with 11th house activities, that you’ll probably have the greatest success, just because it also focuses on the 11th house heavily, with the ruler of the ascendant there and both benefics there. I mean, I’m trying to think of specific scenarios where you would want to be aggressive or assertive in a Martian sense.
KS: Yeah, the sniper rifle was really good. Like the difference between a machine gun, which is a bit indiscriminate—it’s just splaying everywhere—versus the sniper rifle, which has that stealth and strategy and almost that obsessive focus behind it, that’s strategic, seems to be a really great way of summarizing it.
CB: Yeah.
AC: My abbreviations for Scorpio and Aries are ‘gladiator’ and ‘ninja’.
KS: Great. Same concept.
CB: Very good. So these are the ‘ninja’ elections of—
KS: Of October 2015. I mean, it’s Mars in both cases, the Aries versus Scorpio, but there’s that sense of you see it with Aries and you don’t see it with Scorpio.
CB: Yeah. Cuz there’s times when—I don’t know if ‘force’ is the right word. But there’s times when aggressive or assertive action is called for or when strategic action is called for, strategic action that may be aggressive on the part of the person who’s initiating it and other things like that. And sometimes I run into issues with recommending these elections because the most ideal circumstances surrounding that sound kind of negative, like a sniper or something, or like Austin’s recommendation of a ninja, which is essentially an assassin. Like this would be a great election for an assassin or something like that.
KS: Right.
CB: I’m not saying anyone should use it in that way, but there may be more positive or constructive things. It’s like when astrology deals with and encompasses everything, then one of the issues you run into sometimes when you get elections like this is that would be a really good election for certain things that you shouldn’t do, but maybe you can find more constructive things to apply them to that take some of the same archetypes and apply them in similar ways.
AC: We can attack problems, right?
KS: Totally.
CB: Right.
AC: You can attack the day, which doesn’t actually involve killing anyone.
CB: Yeah. I mean, in Virgo, maybe that is all it is, like attacking your health regimen. Or viciously or aggressively getting yourself back into shape or cleaning your apartment or something like that. Yeah, there’s certainly different ways that you can take these same energies and apply them in constructive manners using essentially the same chart.
AC: So what you’re saying is that you’re not advocating assassination, just to be clear.
CB: I’m saying not in October of 2015. I wouldn’t advocate that. I mean, we’ll have to see what the forecast for November brings.
KS: Fantastic.
CB: Okay.
KS: Oh, gosh.
CB: All right. Unfortunately, we can’t edit that part out, so I may get in trouble for that in that future.
AC: We’re advising against it.
CB: Right. I advised against it. All right, so let’s move on before I get into any more trouble or have anyone knocking on my door.
KS: The NRA will have you as their poster child.
CB: Right.
KS: I don’t know. Maybe that’s really not a joke you should say to Americans.
CB: Yeah.
AC: Yeah, kill you.
KS: Okay.
CB: All right, are there any major things that we haven’t gotten to yet in terms of alignments or signatures? I mean, we got to the Mercury station, Venus leaving its shadow. What else is there?
KS: I mean, the second-half of the month—just from major aspects—it’s a little bit less stuff, like major stuff. We’ve Sun trine Neptune, Friday, October 30, over Halloween. The one thing that is really nice—that’s probably got nothing to do with assassination or guns—is the Full Moon in Taurus. I mean, the exaltation of the Moon by sign, but the Full Moon is at 4°, or 3.5° of Taurus. So it’s not just the sign exaltation of the Moon, but it’s very close by degree.
AC: To the exaltation degree.
KS: To the degree of the Moon, yeah. So that’s nice.
AC: Traditionally, planets are not just exalted in signs. There’s a single degree in each sign where they are the most exalted, and that’s the third degree of Taurus. And so, this Full Moon will be extremely close to that.
CB: And what day is that?
AC: So maybe you reach stabilization after—
KS: October 27. And stabilization, did you say, Austin?
AC: Yeah, so maybe some nice stabilization after all of these changes. Not to mention the Sun and Mercury have to do with this toned-down version of the Uranus-Pluto T-square that they’ve been doing for years, where a planet that goes through the middle of Libra has to square Pluto and then oppose Uranus. That’s made for the last several years a tense and somewhat destabilizing week or so; maybe a little bit less than a week. But after that, after these retrogrades, after these pair of eclipses in September—all of which are signifiers of change—there’s some nice stabilization that comes with the Full Moon in Taurus, especially unafflicted, as it is this year.
CB: And it’s the first one where you’ve got a lunation in one of those two signs that doesn’t have Saturn there for the first time in like three years.
AC: Yay.
KS: Yeah, and it is. I mean, the Moon, as it completes the Full Moon, is then moving to trine Pluto, trine Jupiter, trine Venus. So ‘stabilization’ is definitely the word for that eclipse.
CB: Yeah, that’s actually one of the elections—or around one of the elections that I recommended later in the month, which is just after eclipse day, or I think the same day as the eclipse. Or not the eclipse, I’m sorry, the Full Moon. So later in the month, there starts being some alternates. Instead of using Scorpio rising all of the time, you can try an Aquarius rising election, since now Saturn is in Sagittarius, it’s in the eleventh whole sign house. So you can do Aquarius rising, Saturn in the 11th house conjunct the degree of the midheaven in a day chart, so that Saturn is more constructive or more positive and its negative tendencies are ratcheted down. The Moon is exalted in Taurus in the 4th house, and it’s applying to a trine with Jupiter in the 8th in Virgo. Yeah, I mean, the only thing that made me hesitant about recommending this election is that, normally, having Mars in the tenth sign relative to Saturn as the ruler of the ascendant would be problematic. That’s a condition known as ‘overcoming’ or ‘domination’ or ‘decimation’ when you have another planet—especially a malefic—in the tenth sign from another planet. It’s like a tough square, even if it’s just sign-based. But, in this instance, at least it’s balanced and offset significantly by the fact that you have both benefics in that sign as well. So you have Venus and Jupiter overcoming and dominating Saturn in Sagittarius at the same time through that wide sign-based square. So I think that’s enough, where I would recommend this as a decent, all-purpose election, because both the ruler of the ascendant and the Moon are relatively well-placed. So I thought I would bring that up just in terms of talking about the Full Moon in Taurus, since that’s definitely highlighted in this chart, with the Sun in the 10th in Scorpio and the Moon in Taurus in the 4th.
KS: It’s a juicy Full Moon. It’s great that you’ve got an election there as well.
CB: Sure.
KS: There was a question from one of our listeners. I don’t know if you guys want to take this. Barbara had asked: “Can all these concepts or the electional concepts be applied to a natal chart with these same kinds of configurations?”
CB: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things that happened in late 20th century astrology is there was a fragmentation of all of the different branches of astrology, so that they were all treated as if they were different entities that had different rules and required different specializations and things like that. The way that I see it at least is, for the most part, all of Western astrology is largely using the same technical apparatus to the extent that you’re using the fourfold framework of the planets, the signs, the houses, and the aspects. And you should be able to see the carryover between those in the four different branches of astrology, which are mundane, natal, electional, and horary. I mean, even though there are some differences and some technical differences and different techniques that you can use, there’s a lot of overlap between the fundamentals techniques and the fundamental technical apparatus. So, yeah, I do think you can use a lot of these or apply them in natal charts, in addition to elections.
AC: Yeah. I would say that the principles are different—excuse me, the principles are different. The principles are exactly the same and a lot of the things that you look for—like is ‘this’ overcoming ‘that’, is this applying or departing to that—you look at all of the same things, but it will play out a little bit differently in those different astrological contexts. Like a single horary question, people are often looking at whether this will or will not happen or come to pass. And so, it’s different to look at things in the context of a single situation versus a lifetime where everything that’s in a chart will play out if you live for 90 years, right? Whereas if you’re looking at something that’s just one situation, you may only see the biggest, strongest configurations. You’re applying the same technical procedures, just in different types of situations, if that makes sense.
CB: Definitely. And with a different scope or a different timeline involved. As you said, a horary will have a month-long timeline, whereas a natal chart will have a 90-year timeline, whereas mundane—like the chart for the United States, it’s been around for 2-or-300 years. 200 years actually.
AC: Something like that.
CB: Something like that.
KS: Something random along those lines.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Yeah, when you take some of these techniques—like electional techniques or horary or what have you—and you start applying them or thinking about them in the context of a natal chart, it will really deepen your understanding of how a natal chart operates. So when you look at the natal chart, forget about thinking ‘good’ or ‘bad’ to start with, but just start thinking which planets are applying to which planets, which aspect is actually a separating aspect. I mean, these are very simple ideas, but if you haven’t started considering them in a natal chart, it will really help you shift your focus. If something is separating in a natal chart, it’s not going to be as strong or as dominant or as dramatically manifested as an aspect that might be applying in the natal chart, which is then kind of being reinforced throughout the lifetime. That’s just a very simple example of the idea of movement, which is often not considered in a natal chart. It’s just more like, oh, this aspect has a 6° orb, or a 2° orb, and you might think, well, a 2° orb’s more important. But if it’s 2° orb separating and 6° orb applying, and it’s the Moon going to Jupiter, for instance, or Saturn, you want to accommodate or adjust for some of those specifics. So it’s definitely a really great way to deepen your understanding of the natal chart, to start incorporating these older or different ideas, I guess.
AC: So speaking of timelines, I know that we meant to discuss the immigration crisis a little bit more thoroughly this month than we did last month.
CB: Yeah. I mean, it’s like we can, because that was something that I think we touched upon briefly, towards the very end. And I know a lot of our listeners of the “Saturn in Sag” episode were a little surprised or disappointed that we didn’t go into that more or sort of emphasize that point more as like an obvious thing that’s developing right now and that’s been developing for a little while now, that seems to be something that would really coincide with and be a really crucial issue, especially in Europe, but even globally to some extent, as Saturn is going through Sagittarius in the next couple of years. I mean, do either of you have any thoughts on that?
AC: I do. I got to thinking about it after we did that last podcast. So one of the very simplest ways of looking at this in timing the crisis has to do with the configuration of Saturn and Neptune. We talked a little bit about how we’re heading into a Saturn-Neptune square, and it is the first of three rather than a standalone event. Whereas Saturn is legality and borders, Neptune refers to that which cannot be solidified, or those waves which overcome walls or sneak through the cracks, right? So it’s very classically a ‘Saturn-Neptune’ thing. People often use oceanic metaphors for immigration—waves of immigration, right? And so, if these are the signifiers, then when that square was developing during the first-half of this year that crisis would have been developing, but it’s interesting that it came to a crisis point just as Saturn moved back into Sagittarius and Jupiter joined in, which suggests a crisis of generosity, which is very much how it was framed in a lot of the press around the European situation. But because these waves of immigration—it’s not one thing happened and there’s one group of people which came and are looking for a place, it’s an ongoing situation and it’s about the relationship between the rules—who do we let in, and under what circumstances, what do we provide for them, etc., etc.—that all these countries are having to ask themselves. This is a Saturn framework question. And so, the suggestion is that it will take the next year—or a lot of the next year to get everything sorted. And we can probably time peaks in the action of this crisis and its resolution by looking at the Saturn-Neptune configuration. I believe we also had an immigration crisis, the Cuban one, in 1980. Is that correct?
KS: Yeah.
AC: Also, Saturn-Neptune.
KS: It was. You’re 100% right, Austin. I was just double-checking. Saturn was in Virgo, about the middle of the degrees, squaring Neptune in Sag. And that was a three-hit transit that started in late ‘79 and continued until late 1980. And there was an event—well, Chris, you weren’t even here then, but Austin and I were really, really young then. So unless we had a history obsession, I mean, I had to look this up today. So between April and September 1980, 125,000 Cuban refugees showed up in Florida as a result of the changing political climate there. I mean, that’s massive. And, yeah, Saturn-Neptune—the rules and the generosity and where are the boundaries and guidelines.
CB: Another thing in terms of this—and in terms of the immigration crisis and everything that’s going on in Europe—is that this is part of a broader mundane theme that I think is largely the aftereffects that started with the Uranus-Pluto square, and some of that coincided with the destabilization of the Middle East, which a lot of astrologers, with Uranus-Pluto square, associate with the Arab Spring and everything happening between 2010 and 2015 in terms of the destabilization of different countries and what that did in terms life in those countries. Now as we’ve just had the final exact pass of the last Uranus-Pluto square, we get the ingress of Saturn into Sagittarius. And what I think that is largely about is not just the immigration crisis in and of itself because this is something that’s been developing—I think you pointed out, Kelly—for a little while now. But it’s something where the aftereffects of that—and then the results of a movement of large groups of people into different countries and either the clash or the intermingling of cultures that results from that, and the different political and philosophical and religious intermingling and sometimes disagreements that might come as a result of that—that’s gonna be the focal point of a large part of the Saturn in Sagittarius transit over the next couple of years, that we’re only seeing the starting point of. But the genesis of that was not Saturn in Sagittarius so much as it was the Uranus-Pluto square over the past half of a decade and the large disruptions that that caused—or not caused, but coincided with in different countries.
AC: Yeah, but there are different players in the same story.
CB: Yeah, it’s interesting how we had the last of those squares though, and it’s gonna be moving apart at this point. But there’s the question of to what extent that Uranus-Pluto square is still gonna be active or still relevant because they’re still pretty close to each other and because we’re still feeling some of the aftereffects of what took place during that time.
AC: Go ahead, Kelly.
KS: Oh, I was just gonna say the idea of the Uranus-Pluto square, yes, it’s separating for sure. Jupiter will go into Libra late 2016, first-half of 2017, opposed to the Saturn-Neptune square. And it’s not as though the Uranus-Pluto square comes back, but we will have a third planet there interacting between Uranus and Pluto.
CB: Okay. Yeah, and that can definitely tie them back together even if they’re not closely touching each other themselves. That’s kind of like the Medieval concept of a ‘transfer of light’ where you have a third planet acting as an intermediary and tying together two planets that are no longer connected.
KS: Yeah, just reconnecting the last dregs of that. Where were you gonna go, Austin? Sorry.
AC: Oh, I was just gonna say you began talking about the difference between applying and separating aspects, and I think that we can apply that concept, right? So when things are in orb but separating, that means that it’s a thing that you’re dealing with, but you’re dealing with the results of that thing. My way of teaching applying and separating is usually the ‘punch in the face’ metaphor.
KS: Great.
AC: The applying aspect is ‘I’m gonna punch you in the face in five minutes’ and there’s a lot of building tension and whatever, and then you get punched in the face and we can look at five minutes after that, right? And so, you’re dealing with whatever damage has been done to your face, but at the same time, you’re not anticipating it. Like it’s happened, you’re dealing with it, if you need to put a steak on your eye or whatever thing that people do on television. I’ve been punched but I’ve never put a steak on my face.
KS: A bag of frozen peas.
AC: Right. We’ve had tons of Uranus-Pluto stuff, right? We’ve had a collection of revolutions that we called the ‘Arab Spring’, we had a revolution in Ukraine, we had a regime change in Thailand—we had all this stuff. This has all happened and now we’re living in that world, and figuring out what to do with the displaced people is part of living in that world, right? Fretting about what will become of these regions where things are uncertain—like the United States—is part of that world. And so, it’s in orb in the sense that we are definitely dealing with it—it is being focused on—but it is the result of events which have already occurred. The punches in the face already happened.
KS: Already happened. I like that, Austin. And I love you’re still applying your out-of-sect Mars. Like every analogy has to do with war or fighting.
CB: Driving tanks.
KS: Driving tanks into the ocean.
AC: Declaring war on Poseidon.
KS: I love it. No, it’s true. And then after you get punched in the face, you can talk about it a little bit, right? You’re calling that guy names. He’s walked away. He’s punched you in the face and he’s left, and you’re cursing him, and that’s what happens in this
aspect.
AC: But the interaction is still happening, it’s just the tail-end of it.
KS: The lingering of it, yeah. I love it, love it. It’s so colorful.
CB: All right, well, I think that’s a good way to address—
KS: Finish?
CB: At least in terms of that topic that some people were asking us to readdress.
KS: Oh, yeah, of course, the immigration. Got it.
CB: Sure. So we’ve covered most of the major configurations and alignments for October. Maybe we should open it up to whether there’s any questions from people that are attending our live session. This is our first live session, so this has been kind of an interesting experiment. Yeah, let us know if there’s any questions that you have that are either relevant to things that we’ve already talked about or maybe if you have any other general astrology questions that are not ‘interpret this in my natal chart’ type questions, but sort of broader questions.
KS: Oh, I love it. I’m still thinking about putting a steak on Austin’s eye.
CB: I’m sure somebody, a listener, could Photoshop that for us.
KS: Oh, my gosh, crazy.
AC: A punch in the face, I have much better recommendations than a steak. Helichrysum essential oil is actually really good for bruises.
KS: Yeah, or some arnica. Helichrysum, okay, good one.
AC: Helichrysum. I always pronounce it wrong.
KS: Or I could be saying it wrong. I just blame it on my accent these days.
AC: It’s a stinky Mediterranean herb with healing properties.
KS: Fantastic. Well, maybe stinky and healing is—I don’t know. Oh, my goodness. People might need a minute to get their questions together, but maybe nobody has any.
CB: So Jo Gleason asks: “Do you have any specific examples of Venus and Jupiter being on either side of Mars and how that could mitigate/negate Mars’ signification?”
KS: Very good question.
CB: Yeah, it’s like this is one of the classical conditions of what’s known as ‘bonification’ or—actually I guess that’s the only term for it. She says: “Or any situation like that with benefics mitigating in that way.” Yeah, let me pull some up. Let me give this to you guys, if you have any examples. Cuz I actually have specific examples in a lecture I’ve done on the topic, but let me see if I can find it.
KS: Okay. Well, you look for it, Chris.
CB: Okay.
AC: So this is basically the reversal of a more commonly discussed condition, which is ‘besiegement’, where a planet is hemmed by malefics. And so, the metaphor is like a castle that’s surrounded. But in this case, we’re looking at being besieged by benefics. It’s sort of like the evildoer is surrounded by hippies.
KS: Can’t do evil.
AC: Yeah, and there’s no evil to be done. I know I’ve referred to this with people—it’s sort of like a menage. We were trying to come up with—
KS: We called it the ‘benefic sandwich’ last time.
AC: There’s been a couple different versions of them. But, yeah, it’s encirclement by hippies. I’m gonna stick with that for now.
KS: Encirclement by hippies, cool.
CB: I mean, there’s other situations. In older forms of astrology you can have situations where either the malefics have the upper hand on other planets in the chart and what happens when the more difficult planets in a person’s chart are in charge versus the opposite scenario which also happens, like in this instance, which is what happens when the benefics or the most positive planets in your chart have the upper hand. One of the core things that the benefics want to do is they want to say ‘yes’ to things, and they want to confirm things, and they want to stabilize things. Whereas one of the general tendencies of the malefics in their extreme form is to want to say ‘no’ to things or want to negate things or want to corrupt things in certain parts of the chart. And if the benefics have the upper hand over a malefic, then they’re gonna force him to be better and to be more affirming and be more positive and stable than it would like to be otherwise, which has this tendency to counteract or contradict the inherent tendency of the malefic to want to be more destructive or more destabilizing, as well as its general tendency to want to say ‘no’ to things.
So when you apply that malefic tendency to want to say ‘no’ to different parts of the chart and actually think about what that means in concrete scenarios—if you have a question like, will I have children, and you look at the 5th house and you have a malefic there, the malefic could be saying, “No, you will not be able to have children for some reason.” Whether that’s biologically a person can’t—which was actually a consultation that I had very recently with somebody that had malefics in the 5th house, and they just could not have children despite how hard they tried—or you will lose children or something like that, it’s somehow negating that topic of your life. Or let’s say you have them in the 7th house. And so, the malefics are attempting to say ‘no’ or attempting to negate the topic of relationships for you. So somebody that never gets in a relationship in their life or never gets married or loses a partner tragically or something like that. When the benefics are in this special role, and one of them is enclosing on either side of a malefic, the benefics are able to mitigate that tendency and ratchet it down. So what ends up happening is the person still encounters some obstacles in that part of their life, but they don’t usually go to that extreme so that they’re never able to do it. There’s like an obstacle, but then they’re able to overcome it and there’s some positive things that end up happening as well. So in the end, it’s a happy story in that area of the native’s life rather than a fully negative one.
KS: That’s a really good way of putting it, the idea of saying ‘yes’ or saying ‘no’ to things. It’s really helpful to think about it that way.
CB: And the other thing that happens with enclosure is that you get into a situation where, typically, the planet in the middle is separating from one benefic and applying to another benefic, especially if it’s more swift-moving. And so, what does it mean when you have benefics in your past as well as benefics in your future? I mean, that’s a situation where you’re coming from positive, stable, supportive things in your background, but you’re also moving towards, in the future, positive, stable, supportive things that are coming up. So it also gets into that dynamic quality of, what did you come into the situation with, and what are you moving forward into the future with? And if you benefics on either side of that, it’s just a positive omen symbolically about both your past as well as your future.
KS: Jo actually had a follow-up, Chris—and, Austin, you might want to pipe in here too—about the strengths. So with Venus and Jupiter both being in detriment or in fall, does that somehow diminish slightly the goodness? I guess I’m thinking it would be better if it was Venus and Jupiter on either side of Mars in Pisces perhaps, where Venus and Jupiter have strength. But does that come into it? Cuz I know the Hellenistic take on strength is a bit different?
CB: Yeah, I mean, I personally don’t think it would diminish the positive effect that the two benefics would have on Mars. I think it would be more positive, for example, if there was reception between Mars and one of those two benefics, which you don’t really have here, which would require, at least in this instance, since they’re all in the same sign, one of them to be in one of their own domiciles. So we don’t really have that here and that would help, but otherwise, I don’t think the fact that one of them is in their detriment and ones in their fall is necessarily gonna hold them back from helping Mars to a very significant extent because they’re enclosing it. Cuz it’s more of an aspect-based consideration than a sign-based one.
KS: Cool.
CB: What do you think, Austin?
AC: I don’t know. I think it’s worth taking into consideration generally. We’re coming up on a Venus-Jupiter conjunction again this month.
KS: Yeah, late October.
AC: Oh, my God, two benefics conjoined.
KS: You’ve got Virgo.
AC: This is as humble a conjunction between the two benefics as you can have. They’re in a sign where they are both as disabled as Virgo. And so, a lack of essential dignity like this doesn’t often totally disable or change what Venus and Jupiter are trying to do as benefics, but the results will tend to be humble. One thing I’ve seen with Jupiter in Virgo is people get excited about big Jupiterian expansions—and those don’t happen. There are ‘humble’ gains to be made. There are gains in efficiency. There are gains in just recognizing and appreciating what you have accomplished, doing little, sort of microscopic corrections. The sort of big, fancy, explosive, joyous stuff that one might desire from a conjunction of the benefics is probably not going to occur. It’s good, but it’s probably not amazing. And so, I’m thinking that keeping expectations humble is an important part of working with the benefics in the same sign this month.
CB: Sure. Yeah, I definitely think that makes sense, especially just talking about the Venus-Jupiter conjunction on its own and the sign it’s taking place in, since that’s the context. And that will contrast with earlier this summer, where you had that Venus-Jupiter conjunction in Leo at the end of June and some of the world events that took place.
KS: Weddings, weddings.
CB: Yeah, the weddings and the Supreme Court decision in the United States and some of the excitement with different people surrounding that, and then subsequent weddings and things like that.
AC: And one thing to note, just this configuration we’re talking about, this Venus, Jupiter and Mars things. This is something everybody can see every morning before the Sun rises for almost the entire month.
KS: Oh, yeah, good point.
AC: If you want to think about it, wake up early or stay up late and just look at it.
KS: Yeah, get physical with the planets.
CB: And that’s actually a good idea. Cuz people aren’t used to knowing what that looks like, because most astrologers are so divorced from the actual observational astronomy. But when you’re looking at a chart, what that actually looks like is—let’s go to early this morning, for example, in the chart wheel. Yeah, so this is about an hour or something before sunrise. So we have Virgo rising, Jupiter, Mars, and Venus are over on the left-side of the chart. So they’re literally rising up over the horizon, which you can visualize if you actually animate it. The ascendant keeps moving forward every few minutes, and the stars or the planets rise up over the horizon when they hit the ascendant. And then eventually, an hour or something later, the Sun in Libra rises over the horizon and it becomes daytime and all of the stars disappear. But that’s a really good point because Venus and Jupiter are so bright—and to a lesser extent Mars is kind of like a reddish star—we’re gonna be seeing those rising up over the horizon just before dawn, or just before daybreak for the next month basically.
KS: Definitely worth getting up early for.
CB: Yeah.
AC: Worth staying up.
KS: Austin, you’re staying up late for sure.
CB: All right. Let’s see, another question. Barbara Farrar says: “When you’re looking for a good election, do you give more weight to the ruler of the ascendant and where it’s place, or sect, where the Sun and Moon are? I know you said you try to find more daytime charts because that’s more practical, but some of them have the Moon above the horizon. And also, what part of the cycle the Moon is in, does that have any effect on the election?” Yeah, so in my approach to electional astrology—and the approach that’s based on my understanding especially of the early Hellenistic tradition and some of the early Medieval tradition and how they did elections—is that in almost every electional chart, if you look at those handbooks, the primary things that they focused on, no matter what type of election it was, they would focus on the ruler of the ascendant and they would focus on Moon, just making sure that those two significators were well-placed in the chart above anything else. So that’s always been a really core thing for any election that I do, focusing on those two significators. And you’ll find that that’s actually surprisingly difficult and surprisingly complicated to do, especially on a regular basis. Cuz oftentimes you just have a really tough time finding dates or months in which you can get both of those planets in a good position by sign, by house, and by aspect. Those are the three considerations that you want to make them well-place by and that can be tough, but that’s the first order of things, for me personally, as far as I’m concerned. I think, Austin, you sometimes put a little bit more emphasis on other things, right?
AC: I think I place greater weight on essential dignity than you do.
CB: Okay.
AC: I consider sect. I don’t make sect as fundamental to my elections. I mean, the Moon and the ruler of the ascendant are obviously important. I just won’t do things if I don’t like the chart. I don’t like trying to monkey around with things. Occasionally, you have to. But if it’s not a great chart, a lot of times I’ll take that as a suggestion to be patient and that maybe this isn’t the best time to conduct whatever business.
CB: Sure. And when you say you focus on things like sect, do you mean you’ll focus on the sect light, like the Sun in a day chart, for example?
AC: I think I focus less on sect than you do.
CB: Oh, right.
KS: Essential dignity.
AC: Yeah, I place greater emphasis on essential dignity.
CB: Right. And so, in elections, like the ones I was doing, for example, last month, you might have more of an issue with using Jupiter as the ruler of the ascendant because it was placed in Virgo.
AC: Yeah. I’m skeptical of the good that it can provide.
CB: Okay. Yeah, so those are different approaches. But still I guess you would end up focusing on the ruler of the ascendant and the Moon as an emphasis.
AC: I think those are great places to start.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah. It’s interesting because I think we probably all have that same focus, but the idea of what’s a good ruler of the 1st house or ruler of the ascendant—depending on whether you’re emphasizing sect or essential dignity—you might come up with a slightly different take on things.
CB: Right. I mean, you had a personal experience with that recently, Austin, cuz you had to pick the chart for your wedding coming up, right?
AC: Yeah, I did. We all sat around and realized that nothing is ever perfect.
KS: It’s hard. I remember when we did the chart for our wedding a couple of years ago. It’s when you really start doing it for yourself around obviously a momentous occasion—like a wedding or the birth of a baby, like we were talking about with Patrick—then you realize, “Wow, I can only get a couple of really good things. So what is the most important?”
CB: Right. And how do you prioritize what to focus on versus what you can let go?
KS: Yeah. You find yourself letting go of a hell of a lot of things.
CB: Right.
KS: Is that kind of how you went with yours, Austin, getting your wedding chart?
AC: Well, when you’re doing elections there are always practical considerations, especially when it’s something that involves this many people, such as a marriage ceremony, a gathering.
KS: Sure.
AC: And so, we emphasized Venus in the election. I think Venus probably has a more important relationship to marriage than most of the other planets.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Yeah, it was really built around Venus. It’s got Venus in Libra on the North Node. It’s Venus on steroids, or whatever kind of steroids you take that make you more graceful and loving.
KS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s in Libra on the North Node too, right?
AC: Yeah.
KS: It’s funny. Actually this is a really good point. With wedding elections that I’ve done—not just for myself but for other people—the emphasis on Venus I do great with. It’s almost like a primary. It will become equally important to the ascendant and the Moon when you’re looking at a wedding chart.
AC: Yeah, it’s the primary significator of that type of activity.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Sure. And Jo Gleason comments that she started learning electional astrology recently when she was trying to pick a closing date on buying a new house and how brutal it was just trying to narrow that down.
KS: It is horrible. I just recently bought and sold a house in a very weird set of circumstances quite quickly over the northern summer. I think I spoke to you a little bit about it, Chris. I had to give up looking at the astrology because it was just brutal. It’s hard, especially with something like buying or selling a house. There’s a huge amount of money on the line.
CB: Definitely.
KS: I like Austin’s take, that idea of sometimes if the chart keeps saying ‘no’, maybe it’s a sign. But then the flip-side of that is sometimes when the momentum is carrying towards something, that in itself is also a sign separate to the specifics of the astrological significators.
CB: Right. And that brings in a whole separate issue, which is just the natal chart—your natal chart and the chart of the other people involved—and sometimes that indicating really positive things even if you’re not finding great electional charts, or even sometimes a not-great electional chart being tied in so well to your birth chart or the people involved; that almost becomes sufficient in and of itself so that the person’s own positive fate surrounding that situation overwhelms the lack of an amazing electional chart just as a standalone thing.
KS: Yeah, that’s a really good point, the individual’s karma or energy or symbols. The electional chart is a way of kind of tweaking or enhancing what is already underlying in the natal chart.
CB: Right. All right, well, we’ve been doing this show for about 1-hour-30. So that’s our usual 1-hour-37 minutes, so that’s our usual time. I think we’ve covered everything in terms of the alignments that we wanted to mention. Is there anything else you guys wanted to bring up or mention before we sign off?
KS: No. Great fun as always, guys. Thank you.
AC: Yeah, definitely.
CB: Awesome. Well, that was great. All right, well, this was a good first experiment with using this format to record the October forecast episode. So I’ll be posting this on the podcast website. And if you’re listening to the audio, then you already know that this is an audio episode on its own. But if you’d like to see the video, then I’ll include a link to the YouTube video, which I’ll upload shortly in the post, on theastrologypodcast.com. So just look for that if you’d like to see the webcams or see the charts that we were sharing during the course of this show. If you like the episode, be sure to rate it on iTunes, which always helps us out, because it helps people to find us basically if it has more positive ratings. Yeah, I think that’s it for our October episode. So I’ll be doing four more episodes in October, so I look forward to that. I look forward to Sam Reynolds who’s coming back to address criticisms of astrology from religious communities.
KS: Fantastic.
CB: Yeah, it was actually a really good episode last time on scientific criticisms of astrology, and we were gonna do religious criticisms in the second-half of the show, but we just got to talking about the scientific criticisms and stuck with that for an episode. So he’ll be back early in the month, and we’ll have some other episodes lined up as well. So thanks everybody for listening, and we’ll see you next time.