The Astrology Podcast
Transcript of Episode 130, titled:
Astrology Forecast and Election for November 2017
With Chris Brennan and guests Austin Coppock and Kelly Surtees
Episode originally released on October 30, 2017
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Note: This is a transcript of a spoken word podcast. If possible, we encourage you to listen to the audio or video version, since they include inflections that may not translate well when written out. Our transcripts are created by human transcribers, and the text may contain errors and differences from the spoken audio. If you find any errors then please send them to us by email: theastrologypodcast@gmail.com
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Transcribed by Andrea Johnson
Transcription released February 13th, 2025
Copyright © 2025 TheAstrologyPodcast.com
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CHRIS BRENNAN: Hi, my name is Chris Brennan, and you’re listening to The Astrology Podcast. This episode is recorded on Thursday, October 26, 2017, starting at, what is it, 2:20 PM in Denver, Colorado, and this is the 130th episode of the show. For more information about how to subscribe to the podcast and help support the production of future episodes by becoming a patron, please visit theastrologypodcast.com/subscribe. In this episode, I’m gonna be talking with Kelly Surtees and Austin Coppock about the astrological forecast for November of 2017. So let’s jump right into it. Hey, guys, welcome back to the show.
AUSTIN COPPOCK: Hey, Chris. Hey, Kelly.
KELLY SURTEES: Hey, guys.
CB: Hey. It’s good to see you again. It’s been actually exactly one month somehow since our last episode. We recorded the last one on September 26. So time flies, I guess.
KS: It does.
AC: That went very swiftly for me.
CB: Yeah, it’s kind of weird how quickly that month went in some ways. Kelly, you got back from Australia and finished your trip where you did some workshops and stuff in the meantime, right?
KS: I did, yes, since we last spoke. But I’ve been home for about two weeks now, so definitely feeling settled and over the jet lag, which is great. But I can’t believe it’s November next week.
CB: Right. And you did a Hellenistic workshop. Are you gonna release the recording for that at some point?
KS: Yeah, I’m taking a cue from you, Chris. I feel like I need to just check to see if it’s good enough. Because what I’m learning is when you teach in person, you’ve got your theory that you get across. But later in the day it can get a little bit more free-form, and that doesn’t always translate on a recording. So I just need to go over and double-check. But the material was fantastic. So if I don’t release the whole day, maybe I’ll release part of it. Or I’m gonna do a re-record. So I’ll totally be vibing you as I strive to improve my audio quality.
CB: Sure. Awesome. And, Austin, how are you doing? Are you guys finally coming out—in the Pacific Northwest—that ‘fire and brimstone’ thing that was going on for a while? Or where’s that at?
AC: Yeah, the air no longer smells like a barbecue. It’s interesting to live here. I haven’t done a full year here yet. And so far, like clockwork, within literally like two or three days of the equinoxes and solstices, the season changes radically. And so, it’s fall. It’s inarguably fall. It’s like 30° colder than a month ago. Many of the leaves have changed and litter the ground. Everything feels different. And that’s the way it’s been every season so far.
CB: Right. Yeah, I had the same experience here. And that’s actually really causing me to struggle with that a little bit in terms of the tropical/sidereal zodiac. Specifically, not the sidereal zodiac, but the tropical zodiac and the Northern/Southern Hemisphere seasonal things. Because there is something very stark about the seasonal shifts in the Northern Hemisphere and the way that that aligns with the way that especially modern Western astrologers often talk about the zodiacal signs. And I’m having a difficulty with that because I still want to be able to use that symbolism while realizing that, for example, where Kelly’s from in Australia, the seasons are flipped in the opposite. I mean, how do you reconcile that, Austin? Or have you thought about that?
AC: Yeah, well, I think it’s a matter of disentangling what is local and seasonal from what is not local and seasonal. I don’t think all of the symbolism attributed to the signs is dependent on seasons. But, I don’t know, if you’ve lived your whole life in a temperate climate where it basically changes like clockwork with the ingresses—the solstitial and equinoctial ingresses—those two naturally are going to get confused. And so, I don’t know, I think it’s something that I’ve discovered sort of moment-by-moment, no, I don’t want to put those two things together. I didn’t learn the signs through a primarily ‘seasonal storytelling’ perspective, and so a lot of that is just not part of the way I learned them. Although there is some of that in there. I don’t know. I think it’s a complicated thing that we could probably pick apart for a long time.
CB: Yeah. And I didn’t mean to necessarily get stuck on it. It’s just one of those things.
AC: Yeah, it’s a good question.
KS: It’s a great question. And it’s something that I used to get a lot once I came to Canada. At 29, the classic, cliché Saturn return story, I moved from Australia to Canada, and literally turned my world upside-down. But the season shift, for sure. But similar to you, Austin, I didn’t learn the signs so deeply entrenched in the seasonal qualities, if you like. So it wasn’t difficult to hold the separateness that Aries can be ‘this and the season’, cuz in Australia, Aries is in the autumn or the fall. So yeah, it’s a good topic to discuss.
CB: Sure. Yeah, I guess it was just Western/tropical astrology very often noted or commented on ‘Northern Hemispheric’ tendencies, or proponents or astrologers. And oftentimes they’ll talk about Aries being the beginning of the year, the beginning of the season, because everything starts growing, or the plants start growing in the Northern Hemisphere and it becomes the start of the growing season. And some of those seasonal metaphors sometimes have leached into the discussion of the signs in certain relatively standard, contemporary astrological texts, like Dane Rudhyar or some of the modern psychological astrologers. But there’s a sort of tension for me in seeing the way that the symbolism of the seasons could be relevant and how you could incorporate versus understanding you really need to create an astrology that’s relevant for both hemispheres, that isn’t tied into something that’s purely relative. Yeah, that’s the issue.
KS: Yeah, totally. And I think, historically, not just historically, even today—I don’t know, correct me if I’m wrong anyone—but I believe that most people live in the Northern Hemisphere. There’s larger landmasses in the Northern Hemisphere.
AC: Oh, it’s actually a shocking proportion.
KS: Yeah.
AC: It’s like 80-plus-percent of the humans live in the Northern Hemisphere. I won a bet with somebody I was talking to about this, and they were like, “No way it’s that many.” And I was like, “Yeah, it’s shocking.”
KS: Yeah.
AC: It’s not even remotely 50/50. And you’re right. There’s a lot more water than land down south.
KS: In the Southern Hemisphere, absolutely. So in some ways, anthropologically, I guess it makes sense that the seasonal associations of the Northern Hemisphere are what are there. But I don’t know. If you live closer to the equator, the seasonal changes—there aren’t four distinct seasons in the tropics. There are two seasons: a wet and a dry season. And so, this seasonal association doesn’t actually apply in the entire Northern Hemisphere as clearly as it does in certain parts. You know, there’s a certain band I suspect where they have—as you were discovering, Austin—cuz you’ve moved quite a lot, a long way north, from where you guys were.
AC: Yeah, I mean, I’m in a pretty thoroughly temperate zone. You know, I grew up primarily in Ohio. And Ohio is definitely four seasons, you know, four spokes on that wheel. But, you know, I lived in Southern California, in New England, in Georgia, and it’s actually a pretty thin, temperate band where you get those four distinct.
KS: Yes.
AC: And it makes me wonder about the weather patterns of the Eastern Mediterranean during that initial Hellenistic period and how much those patterns corresponded with four seasons—if they did at all. Egypt basically had three seasons. I was looking at traditional Hindu calendars today, and I believe there are five seasons, etc., etc.
CB: I mean, part of Ptolemy’s basic rationalizations for the meaning of the signs and the modalities was this seasonal thing, saying that the cardinal signs initiate activity because they coincide with the beginning of the seasons, just after the solstices and the equinoxes; therefore, there’s a change and a shift to something that’s new or into a new phase. And then the fixed signs are solid and immovable because they lie in the middle of the seasons, where there’s not much change one way or another; but instead, you just have an intensification in the middle of the seasons. And then finally, the mutable signs are transitional because you’re moving from the stability of one season into the preview phase of the next season. So it’s like there’s—
AC: Sorry, but that holds up perfectly. It doesn’t matter where you are.
KS: That translates north and south.
AC: I tend to look at the seasons in terms of their ‘raw’ ratios of light and darkness.
KS: Yes.
AC: You begin more light than dark in the spring and then you get to maximum light, and that ends spring and begins summer, etc., etc. And so, you can quarter those ratios outside of explicitly physical seasonal weather stuff, and that holds true because of the proportion of day and night everywhere. So I feel like the modes work great there. But if you’re gonna say, “Oh, Saturn rules Capricorn because it’s cold when the Sun’s in Capricorn,” that’s problematic, right? Cuz that’s not true in Australia.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Right.
CB: I mean, it’s just tricky because tropical astrologers—and nobody’s sufficiently answered this as far as I know—still need to come up with an explanation of why what we call 0° of Aries, which coincides with the vernal equinox, should act as the starting point for the tropical zodiac, that’s true in both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres. One of the issues is it does seem because the Western astrological system, with the rulership scheme, was created in the Northern Hemisphere in Egypt that they may have built in a ‘Northern Hemisphere-centric’ basis in that. Because like you were saying with the cycles of light and darkness, they did assign the Sun and the Moon to the two signs that coincided with the hottest and brightest part of the year in the Northern Hemisphere, which is Cancer and Leo. And then Saturn does get assigned to the opposite of that, which is the coldest and darkest part of the year in the Northern Hemisphere. And there’s something problematic about that because it may have originally been Northern Hemisphere-centric. But that’s not to say that there couldn’t be some rationale that’s true for both hemispheres, but I’ve just never seen anyone really fully sufficiently find one.
AC: Yeah. Just to go back to your point about the start point being 0 Aries, I’m pretty sure the answer is because that’s what the Persians did. You know, if you look at, for example, the Egyptian calendar, they picked a different quarter, right? They said, “Let’s start on the solstice.” That’s why that Thema Mundi has Cancer rising.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And lots of other cultures pick a different point and there’s almost always just a good rationale. There are some cultures that start the year just about now because this is the ‘death’ part in the Northern Hemisphere, like the beginning of the soul’s journey around the wheel. But I think you can make good cases. You know, I’m not comfortable with saying that a perfect circle starts at any one point; there are certainly critical stations. Like if somebody wanted to argue that we should start the year when the Sun was at 3 Virgo, I would have to be convinced by very careful argumentation. But if somebody said, “Yeah, we’d like to start it on the winter solstice,” I’d be like, “That’s cool.” That makes just as much sense as the vernal equinox.
CB: Sure, sure. Well, that could be a whole episode and a whole discussion topic, so I won’t drag us away from it anymore. But the starting point was just that it is interesting for us, living in the Northern Hemisphere—and seeing the seasons change and seeing all of the leaves start falling off the trees really dramatically—that it can be notable and sort of striking.
AC: Yeah, yeah. I guess this all came from you asking me about the weather.
CB: Yeah, right.
KS: Dangerous topic.
CB: Sure.
AC: Right. It’s supposed to be safe, small talk.
CB: Right, yeah.
KS: I mean, the other thing—just from the Aries beginning point—in Britain, until the middle of the 18th century, they actually celebrated their new year on that Aries equinox point.
CB: In March?
KS: In March. March was New Year’s. So before 1770, and before Australia and before America had its events—and Australia was landed by the British in the late 18th century, too—Britain changed to celebrate New Year’s on the 1st of Jan. But prior to then, this sort of cultural New Year’s celebration was in the spring for them.
CB: Okay, interesting.
KS: This is a fascinating thing to look at. And you’re right, Chris. It could be a whole episode unto itself.
CB: Yeah. And patron Michael Beson who’s here in the audience today—who’s one of the patrons, who’s joining us live—he asked the question: “How much does cultural history matter to astrology versus more objective influences?” And that’s really the underlying theme I guess that we’re getting at here, which is the underlying issue. Both of those are probably relevant, and the question is to what extent. So maybe we could make that a separate discussion topic at some point in the future. So moving onto other things, we should probably get some news and announcements out of the way. Kelly, do you have anything going on or coming up in the next month?
KS: I do. I have my next online chart interpretation course starting next week, Monday, the 30th of October.
CB: Okay.
KS: And we’re doing four weeks. So we’re looking at Moon phases and their role in chart interpretation. We’re going to look at a very brief intro to fixed stars and how they might add to chart interpretation. And we’ll also be looking at qualifying aspects according to some of the principles of sect. And I’m gonna highlight just a couple of conditions of bonification and maltreatment, ones that can be really specific about some of the aspects. So just to round out, it’s the final four weeks in a longer series. Any intermediate student is welcome. Or if you’ve studied before and you’re wanting to brush up or deepen some of your chart interpretation skills, you are welcome to join us. So the live class is Monday night, 7:00 PM Eastern. If you can’t make it live, there is a video recording, notes, and weekly homework. So if you’re really motivated, you can send in homework for classroom feedback. So that starts next week.
CB: Awesome. That sounds great. And your website is kellysastrology.com.
KS: Yes, thank you.
CB: Okay. Austin, do you have anything coming up this month, in the next few weeks?
AC: Yeah. It actually sounds shockingly similar to what—
KS: How is that a surprise anymore, Austin?
AC: So it’s the last four-week unit in a longer-running series of classes that I scheduled like last year.
KS: And this was scheduled. Yeah, of course.
AC: It’s the end of the year. It’s natural.
KS: Right.
AC: And this is the last unit in my fundamentals of astrology class. It’s the synthesis unit where we’ll be putting together the phase, the house, the sign, the aspects of the planet. And it’s a little bit less linear, much more of a workshop than a series of lectures. Although I’ll be presenting principles and orders of operations and priorities for chart interpretation and sharing what I know how to do. And so, that’s going to begin on Saturday, November 11, and it will end on December 2. And even though it’s part of a longer-running series, anybody who wants to participate is welcome to enroll.
CB: Brilliant. And people can find out more information about that on your website, which is austincoppock.com, right?
AC: Mm-hmm.
CB: All right, great. And let’s see, other news. One of the pieces of news is people should sign up for UAC soon because the United Astrology Conference—which is the big, mega conference—is taking place in May, in Chicago, next year and is coming up. And the closer and closer you get to the event, the prices keep going up. So if you plan on attending, or if you’re thinking about attending, the sooner you sign up, the better. I’m doing a post-conference workshop there on timing events using a Hellenistic time-lord technique called annual profections. So if anyone’s interested in joining me for that, you can sign up for the post-conference workshop. Kelly, you are not—
KS: Yeah, I’m not.
CB: You’re not doing—okay.
KS: I was very flattered that you thought I might be doing a pre- or post-conference workshop, but, no.
CB: Yeah, I must have been mixing up NORWAC or something like that.
KS: Yeah, yeah. I’ve gotta do a keynote lecture at NORWAC. Not ‘I’ve gotta do’. I’ve been invited to do, and of course I’m very excited, but also very scared. And I’m doing a pre-conference or a post-conference workshop at the SOTA conference, but that’s later next year.
CB: Terrific.
KS: It’s really all about UAC. Yeah, cuz you gotta sign up asap. And I think if you’re gonna come, you gotta get your hotel room reserved because they can sometimes book out.
CB: Yeah, they can run out of rooms, just cuz it’s such a huge conference, with somewhere between 1,500 to 2,000 astrologers in attendance. So all three of us are gonna be speaking there, right?
KS: Yeah.
AC: Yep.
CB: All right, well, if anyone wants to join us then or wants to see us speak or meet us in person, they should definitely sign up for that conference.
KS: And I’m still trying to push the whole podcast live or ‘drinks’ night or something.
CB: Yeah, and I just finished completing an in-person recording solution. Usually when I do podcasts, it’s through Skype or through Zoom, and we’ve got a mic hooked up to a computer and then we record the files directly to the computer. I just finished getting an in-person home—not like a studio, but at least the basic equipment for recording podcasts locally, and I’m learning how to do that. And the first one went relatively well. Leisa and I recorded the second episode of The Casual Astrology Podcast and released it as a preview to all patrons of the show. And that’s gonna be a new private series that’s available to patrons who are signed up on the $10 tier, where we just sort of riff on some topics that I’ve been researching or thinking about lately in a more casual format than these usual podcast, interview-style episodes. Anyway, I got a mixer and a couple of mics and some other equipment and it went successfully, so that’s actually the first step to being able to do some podcast episodes in person at conferences. So if I can get it together in time, we might be able to do something like that for UAC, and that’s definitely the goal.
KS: Fantastic.
CB: So we’ll see what we can do. Let’s see, other news and announcements. So I’m getting prepared right now to do a ‘Saturn returns in Sagittarius’ retrospective podcast. Now that Saturn is getting ready to leave Sagittarius that means everybody with Saturn in Sag is pretty much wrapping up their Saturn returns. And it’s pretty clear at this point for most of them what that whole thing was about. So in light of that I wanted to do an episode—and I’ve been planning an episode for a while—where I get together a bunch of different stories about people who have just had Saturn returns to explore what that looked like for people with specific placements. So I am soliciting stories at this point, even though I have a bunch already. If you just finished your Saturn return and you have Saturn in Sagittarius, and you want to share your story and share your chart—you have to have a timed chart—then go ahead and send me an email. You can find my email address on the contact form on my website. And just tell me what your experience has been. And if it’s something that’s sort of unique or different in terms of fitting in with the other stories that I’m trying to collect, then it may end up being on that show. So I’m gonna record that in the next few weeks, so definitely send those to me as soon as you get a chance. I’m still trying to figure out the format of that, actually. It’s like there’s different celebrity stories, for example, that we saw, where there’s different people I’d like to talk to who would be better at explaining the significance of those stories than I would. Austin, two of them were Ronda Rousey and the other MMA fighter.
AC: Yeah, Conor McGregor.
CB: Right. So those are two Saturn return stories involving mixed martial arts fighters we talked about on last month’s podcast. Articulating what happened with them and what a sort of contrast it was, you’d be able to talk probably more fluently about that than I would.
AC: Yeah, well, I’ve kinda followed their stories. I actually used both of them as examples in my zodiacal releasing class. One thing I’ll just say even if you’re not interested in people beating each other up in cages, one thing that’s really nice for judging favorability in a fighter’s life is that success and failure are coded in a rather binary manner. You either are triumphant in front of millions of people, or you get beat up in front of millions of people, right? There’s not quite as much gray area as there is in most of life.
CB: Right. That’s much more straightforward than how you felt about it or something like that. Although even in those two examples, it’s interesting because she was on top of the world career-wise and then had this great fall through losing those two fights, whereas Conor McGregor also similarly lost a fight, but it was not necessarily as significant.
AC: No. In some ways, his losses ended up being wins. One of them paved the way for him to have a comeback story. Everybody loves a comeback story. And the other loss was him competing in boxing—which is a related but different sport—against what some people would say is one of the greatest boxers of all time, and going I think 9 or 10 rounds with him, and getting paid a hundred million dollars. He earned a lot of respect and literally enough money for generations and generations of people. So is that really a loss? I guess. Whereas poor Ronda went from being probably one of the most famous female athletes in the world to losing a fight, which was fine, but then coming back in what was supposed to be her comeback and getting destroyed in 45 seconds and a lot of people casting doubt on her legacy as a whole. And so, yeah, two Saturn return stories, very different.
CB: Yeah. So I’m still trying to figure out how I’m gonna do that—if I’m gonna get together a panel and we’re just gonna talk about these stories, or if I’m actually gonna do interview clips of 10 to 15 minutes to talk to some individuals, to get their direct story about what happened to them over the course of the past two or three years, but I’ll be putting that together over the next few weeks. And if anybody has an interesting story, then please send them in as soon as you get a chance. Let’s see, other news. One of the things in preparation for that—I mean, this may end up being the ‘month of Saturn’ on the podcast, so I’m trying to decide if I’m gonna go crazy like that. But Leisa Schaim is actually doing a free webinar for nightlightastrology.com on November 15 where she’s gonna show how to interpret Saturn returns, and especially how the sect of a chart—whether it’s a day or night chart—can really impact the interpretation and the experience of the Saturn return. So that’ll actually be a useful free webinar that people can check out through nightlightastrology.com that’ll be relevant to what I’m doing with the Saturn returns retrospective podcast as well. And then eventually we actually should talk about the potential of doing a Saturn in Capricorn episode. Our one with Saturn in Sagittarius I felt went so well, it might be interesting to do sort of a follow-up to that in some ways for the period of the next two to three years.
AC: I would like that.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Cool. All right, so those are the primary news and announcements-type deals right now. I had one—well, I had a few. I had one primary ‘astrology, pre-forecast discussion’ thing that I wanted to talk about with you guys and that was the nodes. So the very first episode this month was gonna be a Q&A episode that Adam Sommer and I did, where we got a bunch of questions from patrons and from listeners of the podcast and then we were gonna go through and answer them. But we actually got stuck on the very first question, which was a question about the significance of the nodes and how we use them or what we think about them in practice. And this turned what was supposed to be a 15-minute discussion into a full 90-minute discussion about the nodes because I hadn’t ever really done a full episode on the nodes before, even though I’d been intending to do for quite a while. So, you know, Adam and I did our whole riff on the nodes, but I know that there was one listener at least who said that they would have been curious to hear what Austin and Kelly thought about the nodes and just what your perspectives are on that topic, just because it can be something that’s treated very differently in the different traditions. And that was really the primary angle that I came at the topic from, which was one of uncertainty. I backed off from using the nodes about 5 or 10 years ago because of the widely different ways that they’re sometimes used in different traditions, and have only started integrating them more over the past few years sort of cautiously. So yeah, I was curious to get your take. Kelly, before we started recording this episode, I know you shared some similar reservations or something. Or what are your feelings?
KS: Yeah, look, I do find the nodes can be really helpful in the chart, but I know that I use them differently from how modern Western astrologers do. Because when I do get a client who’s a little bit more grounded in the modern Western tradition, they’re sometimes like, “Well, what do you want to say about the nodes?” And I’m like, “Well, in your chart, not much.” I’m sort of interested in the nodes in charts where they might have a planet that is on the South Node or on the North Node—that’ll tend to be why I would go with them—or if the nodes are on an angle. So if the nodal axis is conjunct the ascendant axis or the midheaven axis, they tend to be the conditions under which I would speak to them. And I do struggle a little bit with the intensive focus on past lives with the nodes. I’m just not sure the value of that direction of interpretation. I do think that the North and South Nodes can enhance chart interpretation. So they can amplify the expression of a planet, or they can change the nature of a planet, or they can even diminish some of the topics associated with the planet, depending on whether the planet’s on the North Node or the South Node. So it is one of those weird things where I think in modern astrology, everybody does their own thing with it, and so that would be how I would approach it. I definitely think that they can be useful, but they’re not something that I have to talk about in every chart. And I would use very lightly the incarnation or past life. I don’t always speak to that. I find you can get a lot of interpretation using keywords like ‘amplification’ or ‘diminishing’, or the idea of the South Node being a ‘spiritualizing’ influence, which was a word that our friend Kenneth Miller had shared with me about the South Node, and I really liked that. You know, things pour out of us. So planets on the South Node want to put things out in the world, and that can be done with some consciousness in a way that serves or helps, or it can be done in a way that diminishes. So that’s probably a summary of how I think, but I’m intrigued to hear what Austin has to say.
CB: Sure. Yeah, I know you have more, not firm, but developed views about your approach to the nodes. Right, Austin?
AC: Yeah, I don’t talk about any one set of things in every reading, right? You know, it’s about you answer the questions that you are asked. You know, you look to the chart to see—anyway. I don’t know. You know, I taught a six-hour thing on the nodes a couple of years ago, and I felt like that was barely enough time to reconcile those perspectives; cuz the first 10 minutes of it were like, hey, here’s the outline of the basic evolutionary perspective, here’s the traditional Western perspective, and then here’s the outline of the Jyotish perspective.
CB: So your thing was presenting the different traditions and how they present the nodes differently and then trying to reconcile that.
AC: I would say exploring their points of convergence and divergence. At this point, it doesn’t freak me out to hold all three of those together in my mind. I think that if you held in a dogmatic way to one particular set of ideas about the nodes, you would probably end up saying some incorrect things. So just to take the North Node, right, the North Node or Rahu is considered to be sometimes a problematically materialistic influence. The person’s mind can get caught in snares of greed or ambition. They don’t see clearly where Rahu is. The effect is likened to ash in the air, right? You can’t see through it, and it’s kind of poisonous to breathe from the perspective of a soul or a mind. But this reconciles actually quite easily with the idea that the North Node is an intensifier; it does more. And you see this in Jyotish texts and among practitioners, ‘more’ can very easily be too much, especially when you consider the fundamentally spiritual viewpoint of Jyotish. Of course more material things could be trouble. I read in Bepin Behari’s book 10 years ago, yeah, the North Node can make you rich, but it won’t make you happy, right? That’s a thing. Those are two different looks at something. And then as far as the evolutionary tension between the nodes, I think people do experience a soul-deep tension between those areas of life, especially if there are planets there. Like you said, Kelly, if there’s a planet there, it makes the nodes much more important. I remember one of the little chapters in my nodes class was: “Figure out how nodal your chart is.”
KS: Yeah.
AC: Because if you’re a ‘super-nodal’ chart, every eclipse matters. It’s gonna get pinged over and over again. Whereas if they’re there, but they’re not really doing much, you’ll notice sometimes but it’s not a big deal. But anyway, I do think that the evolutionary astrologers are onto something with that tension and story. Although I think that transmigration is the best explanation by far of what happens after and before life, I am a little bit wary of getting too detailed about ‘you’re exactly this because your South Node’s in Pisces’. It’s not that I think past lives are silly or whatever. It’s just I’m not sure that’s entirely within the scope of just looking at the nodes. Actually I wanted to bring up one thing. I know I’m kind of ‘rant-y, lecture-y, interrupt-y’ today. I haven’t had much sleep. So the South Node is associated in Jyotish with the past, right? And to a certain degree everything in Jyotish can be associated to past lives cuz that’s just a fundamental piece of that metaphysics.
CB: Right. That’s a really important point. I mean, there’s not some specific thing—especially with the nodes—that they attribute to past lives. It’s like the entire chart is the result of past karmas.
AC: Yeah. Oh, I mean, the South Node is explicitly connected with ghosts and insubstantial, ghostly, potentially ancestral stuff. So it’s there, but it’s not the only place that it’s there in Jyotish, right? Anyway, they do past (South Node)/future (North Node). Like they do North Node, and technology is a thing, right? That’s not necessarily your soul’s purpose, that’s just the ‘new’ thing versus the ‘old’ thing. That has to do with the ascending and descending quality of the nodes, I believe, physically. But what I was trying to get to was a very specific anecdote that taught me something and maybe taught me to ask better questions. So there was a solar eclipse on the South Node right next to my Sun, like a day or two after my birthday a couple of months ago, right? And in that span of a couple of days—it was like two days between my birthday and the eclipse—I learned all of this stuff about my mom’s side of the family that really changed my understanding of how I got here and what my roots were. You know, it was just a massive download about the past, and I would say the deep past. None of that was my past life. It was literally the lives of my ancestors, right? And so, there was that connection to the past on what felt like a very meaningful, soul-deep level. And it wasn’t the immediately accessible past; it was a concealed past. And so, I was like, oh, that’s interesting cuz that’s such a hit in some ways, but it’s the past lives of the people who are responsible for 50% of my body rather than my past life as a butcher in Germany or something.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Right. Yeah, I mean, that’s really interesting. One of the assumptions, though, that’s interesting in just studying Indian astrology—especially older Indian texts—one of the issues I’ve noticed is that there’s cross-pollination going on today. So there’s some Indian astrologers today, like when you look at—I forget the name. I think it’s Komilla Sutton’s book on the nodes. She’s clearly taking some of the modern, Western, contemporary ideas about past lives from Western astrology and applying it to Indian astrology, whereas if you go into older Indian traditions, they’re usually not that explicit about saying the South Node indicates your past life.
AC: Yeah, I have not seen that in older texts either. I have seen the explicit association with the ghostly, the non-corporeal, and the past, but not ‘this is where you see your past lives’. I believe they have specific divisional chart techniques for looking at that.
CB: Right. Like looking at ‘twelfth parts’ or dwadasamsas, or looking at navamsas and stuff like that. But it’s important because there’s often an assumption that most modern astrologers, I’ve noticed, implicitly or sometimes explicitly make, which is just that they assume Indian astrologers do attribute ‘past life’ stuff to the South Node, and that’s been there forever. Because modern Western astrologers have a general idea that karma and reincarnation exists in Hinduism and that Indian astrologers use the nodes a lot, they assume they’ve been doing that all along, when in fact that’s not actually the case. Anyway, so that was really besides the point. There was one point that I wanted to mention as a follow-up to that episode, which is that during the course of the discussion with Adam, I was thinking about it and trying to come up with a counterpoint to my own argument against reincarnation theory as applied to the nodes. Because it seemed like the only thing that was based on originally was just Rudhyar theorizing that the ascending node is increasing and the descending node is decreasing; he sort of theorized in The Astrology of Personality in 1936 that it must pertain to past lives and future lives. And then you had this whole modern tradition that sort of generated out of that subsequently in the next few decades. But as I was thinking about that with Adam, I came up with a sort of rationalization where you could rationalize it from a traditional standpoint. And even though I’m not necessarily advocating this, I think it’s interesting conceptually, traditionally, the Sun is the part of the chart that represents the spirit, and the Moon is the part of the chart associated with the body. And the nodes actually being the intersection point between the path of the Sun (representing the spirit) and the Moon (as representing the path of the body) is actually kind of an interesting way that you could approach that from an astronomical or conceptual standpoint to say that’s why it’s associated with reincarnation or what have you, because of this intersection point between the spirit and the body, or something like that conceptually.
AC: Yeah, I think that’s good. And I would also say just from client observation and working with them for a while that the nodes do indicate areas where there is unusual density of seemingly fated or experiences that are felt as soul-deep. And that has to be a phenomenological category because we can’t weigh that. You know, we have experiences where we like, “Oh, this is what it’s been about the entire time.” You know, I’ve come back to this point, but haven’t I always been here? Like that kind of stuff. I’ve felt that, and a lot of clients have. I’ve actually been surprised a number of times where I’m just kinda doing a tour of the chart, and I’ll just do a little delineation of the tension between the natal nodes, and people were like, “Oh, my God, that’s it.” And it’s not that I’m going out of my way to sell it or make it sound cool, but there’s dense, buried, layered stuff there.
CB: Sure.
KS: That’s a beautiful way of putting it. And that point, Chris, that is something that I definitely encountered early in my training—the idea of the nodes representing some sort of interface between the Sun and Moon. And that also makes me think of a totally different thing in astrology, the Part of Fortune, which is a summary of the Sun and the Moon and the ascendant. That’s a little bit more arbitrary, but it leads you to something in the chart that describes a more ethereal take on how these physical things—the Sun and Moon—are being driven perhaps, if you want to think about some of those fated or unconscious things that grab our attention when they pop up even if we’re not focused on them at the time.
CB: Right. I mean, what was interesting about that, I thought it was clever and I just came up with something interesting. But then the patron who originally posed that question on the Q&A—her name is Sheila Roher—she basically pointed out that an astrologer from the UK named Clare Martin had already proposed or written basically a similar theory in a book about a decade ago, with an additional twist that I think actually deepens that interpretive metaphor even further. She pointed out that the nodes actually move backwards. Unlike the planets and the luminaries, they actually move backwards through the zodiac. So this is what she wrote. Cuz I just wanted to write it as a follow-up for the sake of making sure this is documented in the podcast as a series, as part of that discussion. She wrote: “UK astrologer Clare Martin, in volume two of Mapping the Psyche, notes that because the nodal axis symbolically marks the intersection of Sun, Moon, and Earth, drawing on Neoplatonism, says, ‘They are the meeting place symbolically of spirit, soul, and matter, both collectively and individually.’” And she also notes that: “the nodal axis moves in the opposite direction of the Sun and the other planets.” She’s explaining that this provides an astronomical or a symbolic rationalization for some of those past life associations with the nodes. Anyway, for whatever reason, I had never heard a rationalization like that. It was usually more just an assumption or something that everybody took for granted. Typically, when I read modern, contemporary discussions on the nodes, it was just something that people took for granted rather than something that people had as an astronomical thing that they came up with. But, Kelly, are you saying you’ve heard a similar rationale before as well?
KS: Yeah. And my first teacher in Australia probably would have been aware of Clare’s work, I guess, because my original training was very modern Western psychological; so that idea of those coming together. I don’t know. The dreamer in me likes the symbolism of that, of—
CB: Yeah, I mean, I think—go ahead.
KS: I was gonna say just the way it pulls it all together, or the way these points kinda represent the amalgamation or the alchemical stuff that happens when you think about this Moon and that Sun.
CB: Yeah, I mean, even though I’m not personally interested in trying to interpret the chart within the context of past lives at this point in time, I at least think that’s a more respectable, symbolic, rationale for trying to approach it in that way, rather than just taking it for granted that it’s always been this way, or it’s always meant that. Because it’s weird that that’s not necessarily been the case even in traditions like in India, where they’ve had traditions of karma and reincarnation, and they haven’t necessarily used the nodes in that way for 2,000 years.
KS: Yeah, I think that’s a good point for people to be aware of.
CB: What were you gonna say, Austin?
AC: Oh, well, Kelly mentioned alchemy, and that was actually one of the synthetic approaches that I offered in the class. You know, a very useful way of looking at the North and South Nodes of the Moon (or Rahu and Ketu) is to parallel them to the two fundamental processes or operations in alchemy, which are solve and coagula. Solve is when you separate a substance into its component pieces. But it’s not just separating the sock from the shoe. It’s separating the body from the soul of a plant or the soul of a mineral from its body, and that’s pretty much everything alchemy, everywhere. So that’s solve. And then coagula is when you recombine things that have been separated. And so, that language is applied to a great number of operations, both mineral and plant-based and otherwise. And the North Node is about coagulating spirit and matter, right? It’s about becoming more attached to something in your life, more attached to outcomes. Which can be a huge problem, especially if you’re into detachment. But it’s about bringing something’s priority up and getting really attached to something and maybe getting in trouble for that; that’s coagula. And then the solve is the South Node: it’s separating from something; it’s detaching; it’s letting go of something. Those two operations are, I would say, pretty easy to find in all three of those methods of interpreting the nodes. You know, when you combine, you get more. When you separate, things disperse, etc., etc.
CB: Right. And that’s really interesting. In connection, you mentioned the Lot of Fortune, Kelly. I mean, one of the things that’s interesting about the lots is that for the Lot of Fortune and the Lot of Spirit, even though they involve those three points of the Sun, the Moon, and the ascendant, it’s not necessarily trying to blend them all together, but instead it’s actually trying to separate out and focus in on a specific signification of one of them. So the Lot of Fortune becomes specifically associated with the body and the physical incarnation of the native, and it’s really emphasizing one specific signification of the Moon. And then the Lot of Spirit signification oftentimes takes the concept of the Sun and the idea of the intellect or the spirit, and it focuses in on that as being the primary signification of that lot. So it takes one of the significations of the Sun and then that becomes the focal point of that mathematical point. And that’s what a lot of the lots do. They involve three points, but they’re usually trying to take the significations from one of them and really focus in on it.
AC: Yeah, I think of it as filtering, right? You’re running things through a couple of filters in order to get just this one signification.
CB: Right. Whereas with the nodes—from what we’re talking about here being the intersection of those points with each other—that’s definitely bringing those points together, and the point at which they unite and bring those concepts together in some way. I don’t know. Anyway—
AC: No, no.
KS: No, no, for sure.
AC: No, that’s a meaningful distinction.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Sure. It was just where my mind was going when you guys were bringing some of those points up. So yeah, anyway, that was the little follow-up to that discussion that I wanted to mention, just cuz I was curious how you guys dealt with the nodes. And my ambivalent take towards them I realize is not necessarily representative of everybody’s approaches. So I definitely wanted to hear what you guys thought.
KS: Cool.
CB: All right, cool. So let’s jump into the forecast then. So we’re about 50 minutes into this episode. I think that’s a good transition point to start talking about the astrology of November of 2017. And right at the top of that, I wanted to talk to you guys before we get into the sequential stuff. We are now fully in Jupiter in Scorpio, and we’re already starting to see manifestations of that in the news, right?
AC: Yeah, well, I would also say that they’re conjunct within six minutes as of this discussion, the Sun and Jupiter.
CB: Right. So as you’ve pointed out in the past, that’s our first synodic conjunction of the Sun and Jupiter. In the past, as you’ve pointed out with Saturn, those often end up being important turning points in terms of the manifestation of that transit through that sign.
AC: Yeah, I mean, it’s the beginning of the cycle, right? It’s Jupiter being purified in the furnace of the Sun. And in a couple of weeks, Jupiter’s gonna become visible again, and Jupiter will become visible in the East, whereas last time it was visible, it was visible in the West, right? So we get that same sort of jump of visibility. And I think to a certain degree, sure, there were some ingress events. But I think if we really want to start looking for Jupiter in Scorpio, we should really be looking at when it becomes visible, right? Cuz it’s been under the beams, and then combust, and now I suppose cazimi as of this moment, but its light will be visible to the naked eye by mid-month. And so, I think things will be increasingly visible. Not that there’s nothing we can talk about now.
CB: Sure. I mean, one of the things I love that I noticed in the past 24 hours is there’s just been two separate news stories that I think are connected with Jupiter in Scorpio, with this Sun-Jupiter conjunction. So one of them was Amazon released an announcement in a video yesterday promoting this thing called Amazon Key. Have you guys heard of this?
AC: No.
CB: Kelly, you saw it?
KS: Yeah, I saw the video. So it’s some kind of pass code that just allows anybody into your home, but the Amazon delivery people specifically.
CB: Yeah, it’s like a new delivery system where you replace the key on your home’s front door with an electronic or a digital key. And in doing so, you can give permission for Amazon delivery drivers, when they get there, to deliver the package to your house. Just swipe the electronic key and walk right in and leave the package in your home rather than leaving it out front where it can get stolen or something like that. Initially, it’s just an attempt for them to stop having to lose so much money when packages get stolen and they have to send them back out. But I thought it was interesting because one of the traditional associations with Jupiter is ‘faith’. And it kinda requires a little bit of faith or a little bit of trust—‘trust’ is another signification of Jupiter, traditionally—to let somebody basically have the key to your house and come in and trust that they’ll leave a package right there or something like that. And obviously it raises all sorts of privacy questions and other things like that. But I just think that the contrast between, what was it, four years ago or something like that, when Saturn went into Scorpio. You had all these issues surrounding fear about secrets and privacy issues and the ‘Edward Snowden’ stuff and the NSA revelations that everybody’s communications were being monitored. And here you have Jupiter going into Scorpio and it’s like this program where they’re like, “Let us come into your home to deliver a package” or whatever.
KS: Yeah.
AC: I think that’s perfect. And also, Jupiter coming, bearing gifts.
CB: Right.
KS: That’s true.
AC: I think that shows some of the contrariety between the concerns of Scorpio as a sign. I think we could agree that ‘security’ is a Scorpionic priority. And in order to get anything, in order to get something from Jupiter here, there’s potentially the sacrifice of security, right? Do you let the benefic in through the defenses? And is he really a benefic?
CB: Right. Well, he’s supposed to be a friend. Or he’s somebody bringing you something positive. That’s interesting, cuz it almost made me think of what would you associate ‘keys’ or ‘locks’ with. And I could see an argument for—
AC: Mercury.
CB: Yeah, as a transitional thing, but I could also see it as being a ‘Scorpio-type’ thing. Because sometimes what you use locks for is to hide something or to keep something away from something, like a safe or like a dropbox or whatever. So it ends up being involved with not just secrecy, but also these issues of privacy, which can be a very ‘Scorpio-type’ thing. And through that, that might be the access point for why something like the first Sun-Jupiter conjunction might have something like that happening. It’s like a new phase publicly for a lot of people in terms of privacy and trust and what that means.
AC: Yeah. Well, and also the first planet, even before the Moon, to conjoin Jupiter once it ingressed into Scorpio was Mercury.
KS: Was Mercury.
CB: Interesting.
KS: And the other thing, too, this is the only Sun-Jupiter conjunction that we’ll have in this cycle.
CB: Oh, really? Interesting.
KS: Yeah.
AC: You only get one.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Wow. Okay.
KS: Yeah, cuz when the Sun goes into Scorpio next year, Jupiter’s at the tail-end. And Jupiter’s hot-footing it into Sag before the Sun gets far enough into Scorp.
CB: Okay, that makes sense. I thought for some reason it would catch it, but I guess that wouldn’t actually make that much sense. So the other major news thing that’s happening today—that’s really interesting and probably relevant—is today the US government is supposed to release the rest of the Kennedy papers. So there was a law passed in 1992 to make all remaining 3,000-some-odd files—mainly from the FBI and the CIA documents—surrounding the Kennedy assassination and the government’s investigation into that, which had been secret up to this point, public, and release them to the public. So that’s kind of an interesting thing about the public disclosure of something that there’s been many conspiracy theories about, something that a lot of people have made conspiracy theories about or think that there’s additional pieces to the story that have not been made public. I mean, I’m not really a big ‘Kennedy assassination’ conspiracy theorist, but just the fact that there are so many conspiracy theories surrounding it and that today there’s supposed to be this disclosure and unveiling of whatever it is that’s in those documents is kind of interesting.
AC: Yeah, definitely. Well, Jupiter in Scorpio, a lot of secrets, right?
KS: A lot. And even that idea of exposure or revelations to do with secrets. Or secrets being in the press, because Jupiter will put those things out there quite loudly and proudly or openly.
CB: Right. There’s almost something about the opening up or the releasing of something versus Saturn’s more constricting.
KS: Pushing down.
CB: Right. It’s almost like hiding or keeping concealed versus releasing or disclosing.
KS: Well, and just as you were saying that, Chris, it made me think of the qualities of Saturn, cold and dry, which is kind of like slowing, the tamping-down. Jupiter, hot and moist, which naturally is raising up. And so, we’re sort of seeing that raising up. And as this thing’s raised up or it’s amplified or it’s activated, it’s really gonna get bigger, and it’ll be interesting to watch how this continues to unfold.
CB: Sure. And the other one that goes along with that, when you used some of those phrases and those keywords, of course it makes me think—that a lot of astrologers have commented on—of the whole ‘Harvey Weinstein’ scandal and some of the disclosures that have come out about that, and some of the conversation that started coming out about things that are otherwise difficult or secret or private and stuff.
AC: Yeah, I haven’t looked at his chart—I haven’t pondered it seriously—but I was wondering if that was maybe a delayed ‘solar eclipse’ thing. Because if we take kings not literally, but people who are of a high rank and have tremendous power within a society in American society, he’s certainly someone who qualifies for that. And so, I wonder if that wasn’t like a delayed blast ‘solar eclipse’ thing. But I haven’t investigated. It just crossed my mind.
CB: Sure. Yeah, definitely. I mean, that would make a lot of sense to me. And we don’t have his birth time, unfortunately, so we can’t look at the precise placements. But I know some people have focused in on this close Mars-Pluto square that he has. And I think Pluto’s in Leo, and Mars is in, what sign is Mars in?
KS: Scorpio.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah, Mars is in Scorpio.
AC: That makes sense.
KS: The Sun is in late Pisces, like maybe 29, and the Moon is in Capricorn, depending on time.
CB: Sure. I mean, what was interesting about that—of course from an astrological and a timing and an almost conceptual standpoint—was The New York Times story, and I think it was The New York Post story, came out in close succession, while Jupiter was still in Libra.
KS: Yeah.
CB: But it was the aftereffect that caused with the ‘MeToo’ hashtag and some of the social media discussions subsequently. There was just this torrent of it after Jupiter went into Scorpio sort of coinciding with that transit.
AC: I mean, regardless of whether that event was timed in his life by Jupiter in Scorpio, if we’re talking about secrets coming out and disclosure, ‘MeToo’ was absolutely that. It was sharing things that are usually private or secretive.
CB: Right. Exactly.
KS: Yeah, it’s the truth-telling about taboo topics.
AC: I was so busy, I didn’t even think about it.
KS: Yeah.
AC: I’ve been traveling, and family and all of that, and I haven’t really paid attention to the news. And also, again, Mercury was the first planet to conjoin Jupiter, right? That’s so Jupiter conjunct Mercury in Scorpio.
KS: And I think the ‘Weinstein’ story broke in The New York Times on the Full Moon in Aries conjunct Uranus, which was just at the very tail-end of Jupiter in Libra. And I think, Austin, to your point earlier, you’re sort of alluding to what are we gonna see revealed or coming forward when Jupiter actually becomes visible; because we haven’t had Jupiter in Scorpio in a visible condition in the sky yet.
CB: Right.
KS: And that is gonna be interesting. Because this whole ‘Weinstein’ story has prompted this larger conversation about sexual safety and the abuse of power around sexual interactions, which is all very ‘Scorpio’ territory. And more and more things are sort of coming out about other people in positions of power who have been abusing that power in a way that has created unsafe and illegal situations for people. And so, it is gonna be interesting to see what that leads to. And I’m looking to the second-half of November—as we get Jupiter emerging from the sunbeams—to see where that goes.
AC: Yeah. And even though the events which are prompting the conversation are certainly not benefic, it seems to me that the ‘MeToo’ thing and a lot of the talking and listening that is coming out of it are having some pretty unambiguously-positive effects. You know, Jupiter is a benefic, right? Getting something good out of something bad, with Jupiter in the sign of a malefic, seems to be very much on theme.
CB: Yeah, definitely. Even when talking about past events that were ‘traumatic’ or ‘difficult’ or other keywords like that. But these three different stories, it’s interesting seeing some of the similar, underlying themes in terms of disclosures and things like that.
KS: Yeah. And it does make me think of therapy and healing, and the known healing power of discussing trauma. Not that you have to necessarily discuss it in a public forum, but even just writing about it can create more of a positive framework. That’s maybe not the right term. It can help you process what you’ve been through and move you into a place where there’s a little bit more healing around that. So yeah, the idea of something good coming out of this, or that there is value in having difficult conversations or highlighting hard-to-look-at topics, I think you’re really onto something there. And, Austin, the idea, yeah, of a benefic in a malefic sign, that’s kind of a theme.
AC: If you want with Jupiter’s offering, you have to go to that place.
CB: Or like ‘the righting of wrongs’ maybe could be another keyword.
KS: Ooh, that’s a good one, yeah.
AC: Mm-hmm.
KS: Or the ‘justice’ component for wrongs.
CB: Oh, yeah, a huge, consistent, traditional signification of Jupiter is justice. Interesting.
KS: Yeah, I think we’ve seen a lot come through just in the last month with this transition, and it will be interesting when we connect at the end of November to see how things have shifted or what’s emerged once Jupiter has become visible.
CB: Right. And it’s interesting with almost all of these stories that sometimes people aren’t sure. You might initially have an inkling of this has to do with this transit that just started, but initially you don’t realize it’s gonna become this much larger thing that becomes a societal phenomenon, and then in retrospect you see how significant it was. But sometimes when you’re right at the start of it, it’s not always immediately clear. That’s kind of an interesting observation for me from just learning mundane astrology.
AC: Totally. I think there are usually ingress clues, especially for outer planets. And then you’ll see something, and you’ll be like, “Maybe that was a blip,” and then eight months later, you’re like, “Oh, it’s a huge thing.” I remember it was the day that Pluto entered Capricorn, there was this terrible terrorist attack in Mumbai. And it wasn’t like other terrorist attacks. Instead of blowing some stuff up and hurting people, this group—I don’t even remember which group it was—took over a giant hotel, and they tried to hold that territory. And I remember thinking at the time whether the pattern of terror would move from Pluto in Sagittarius (I fire a missile or an arrow at you and it blows up) to Pluto in Capricorn (I attempt to hold the ground). You know, I remember thinking that in 2008 and being like, “Oh, I wonder,” and then fast-forward to the last couple of years and you had a terrorist organization, ISIS or ISIL, literally holding large swaths of land, and that wasn’t happening before. And so, anyway, yeah, that’s the kind of thing. It’s like, “Oh” in 2008, and then when 2014 rolls around, you’re like, “Oh, definitely.” But I think the planets do give those ‘first week of ingress’ clues, and it’s important to watch for those.
CB: Yeah, there was another one of those back a few years ago, like a few weeks after Saturn ingressed into Scorpio. When was that? Like 2013 or 2012. Like a month or something later, there was the ‘Petraeus’ scandal, when the head of the CIA was caught having an affair and sharing secrets with his mistress, and they were communicating through Gmail. They would write messages to each other in the drafts folder and then save it, doing this whole ‘cloak-and-dagger’ thing in order to exchange messages. And he was caught because the FBI ended up investigating it, and then there was a disclosure about it. And it was like this little news story in November of 2012, right after Saturn went into Scorpio. And all of a sudden a bunch of articles were written at the time about privacy and about online privacy and things like that. And it was this little blip for like a few weeks in November of 2012, but it ended up actually being really prophetic or like a preview of what the next few years would be like. Because then about six months later, you had the ‘Edward Snowden’ disclosures, and then suddenly that was the topic for like a year or two, which was online privacy and being spied on by the NSA or what have you and all these other things happening. So that sort of speaks to your point as well, Austin, about an initial set of events sometimes being a preview of what will become larger themes as that outer planet moves further into that sign.
AC: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it’s just something to watch for. Just pay attention. You don’t have to know exactly what it means, right? But just note what happens like the first week for Jupiter and further out.
CB: Right. And sometimes trying to meditate on that or sit and think about what is underlying, which is basically what we’re doing here with some of these stories; trying to draw out what are the underlying themes and keywords that are being raised or brought forth by these events. And then sometimes what you’ll find is those end up being larger keywords; or those keywords get blown up and drawn out even more later on, during the course of the transit.
AC: Yeah. What is the pattern or formula?
CB: Right. All right, well, that is a good, free forecast discussion. So why don’t we move into talking about the specific transits of November at this point. So, Kelly, I think you mentioned and you were excited about the very first hit of November, right?
KS: Yeah. Well, it’s the Taurus Full Moon. Which I think, Austin, you and I are very ‘pro’ on, if I remember from last year.
AC: Yes.
KS: So that’s coming up the first weekend in November. Saturday, November 4. May Sunday, November 4, actually. Yeah, and it’s gonna be ruled by Venus, who will be in Libra. I don’t know. There’s just something very solid, substantial, grounding, even an essential component of Taurus. Venus will be ruling the Full Moon and in an opposition to Uranus. So I think that’s interesting because that Venus-Uranus opposition at this Taurus Full Moon harks back to the exact degrees of the Full Moon last month, previously. So I don’t know if you guys had thought about that since that was such an explosive Full Moon.
AC: No, New Moon.
KS: No.
CB: This month or last month?
KS: Hang on.
AC: The New Moon.
KS: Oh, beg your pardon. The New Moon was opposite Uranus, sorry, yeah.
AC: We totally know that’s what you meant.
KS: Yeah, the excitement.
AC: Well, cuz we’re talking about a Full Moon, right?
KS: Yes. Yeah, so this Full Moon, ruled by Venus. So Venus will occupy the place of the last New Moon at this Full Moon. But I don’t know. You know, I thought about, Austin, when you talked around, I don’t know, a very debaucherous lunation earlier in the year.
AC: Yeah.
KS: And this was sort of the opposite to that. But I think it’s a wonderful weekend for a celebration, or if you’re wrapping things up in the garden if you’re in the Northern Hemisphere, or getting started in the garden if you’re in the Southern Hemisphere. Something about the food and the togetherness and the enjoyment and relaxation.
AC: Yeah. I mean, just to start with, it’s a Full Moon in the Moon’s exaltation. We like that. The Sun is with Jupiter. The Moon’s aspect previous to its opposition with the Sun is an aspect with Jupiter. There’s a lot to like. The only thing that’s worth noting is Venus opposite Uranus can be a little—if somebody’s super stressed out going into that or kind of wound up or just a little fragile, that can be explosive in a not-great way. I would say that there’s, I don’t know, 20% of that lunation that might be a bit too much for people, cuz that’s potentially very exciting. You know, it’s certainly passionate. You know, if you find yourself getting freaked out, just pull back a little bit and there’s plenty to ground you there. But Venus hard aspects to Uranus, that’s a ‘freak-out’ aspect.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Venus is in a great position there, and the Moon in Taurus is grounding, but it’s still a Full Moon. You know, a Full Moon’s like a cup of coffee with no room for cream. It’s easy to spill it. You know, it’s easy for it to overflow.
CB: Yeah, it’s a period of heightened activity and tension. Or a point of peak tension in some sense, just the Full Moon on its own before even adding Uranus on top of that.
AC: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would say it’s maybe like a big gulp full of hot toddy.
CB: Right.
AC: Right? Where you’ve got a lot of hot toddy and that’s a great thing. But maybe it’s a ‘really’ hot toddy and you don’t want to drink too much of it, and you don’t want to scald yourself with it or passersby.
CB: Right. And it’s interesting that Venus itself is the ruler of the Moon there in Taurus. It’s almost like the ruler of the lunation.
KS: Yes.
AC: Right.
KS: I think that’s what makes it so important. And just as you were showing that there, it’s actually Sunday, the 4th of November. Eastern, November 3. Mountain and Pacific, will make it in the daytime. So you’ll see it in Australia on the night of the 4th, at its strongest. But it’s really the weekend.
AC: Yeah. The Moon will be Taurus, full light.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Actually, now that we’re talking about it, I think maybe a big gulp full of hot toddy is gonna be my plan for that.
KS: Yeah, I was curious to hear, too. When I was so excited, Chris, I really just wanted to hear what Austin’s plans were for this weekend.
CB: Right. What are Austin’s party plans?
AC: Well, I used it as a metaphor, but a big gulp full of hot toddy is not a bad way to go. It’s getting kind of chilly and autumnal. That would be a lovely, warming seasonal beverage.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Maybe not a whole big gulp.
KS: Yeah.
CB: It’s striking how close that is.
KS: The opposition?
CB: Yeah. Like I’m just looking at the animated chart now, which if people are watching the video version of this, you can see. But the lunation itself, the Full Moon goes exact at 11°58’ of Taurus. And at that time, Venus is at 25 Libra and 55 minutes, and Uranus is at 25 Aries and 54 minutes, which means that the exact opposition of Venus and Uranus takes place a few minutes before the Full Moon. So they’re both exact practically at the same time.
KS: Yeah. And I think that’s actually a really good point, Chris. You know, the tension of opposites is always highlighted under a Full Moon, but there’s an extra level or a double-strength. I mean, the oppositions are not across the same pair of signs, but they’re right next to each other. So in terms of how this might apply to a chart, for instance, you’ve got two houses right next to each other that are playing tug-of-war with two houses on the other side of the chart, so there is that interplay.
CB: Right. One of the things I talked about during last month—and that some listeners actually said, yeah, they’d like to hear more of that—was just throwing out basic keywords for some of these combinations. So what would some of our keywords be for Venus and Uranus? I mean, that’s classically often treated—obviously not classically. But classically, 1970’s astrology treated it as a difficult aspect because the quality of Uranus is very different than the quality of Venus. You know, Venus is traditionally associated with ‘marriage’ and ‘relationships’ and ‘unions’ and things like that, whereas Uranus, typically, one of its primary significations is ‘disruptions’ and ‘unexpected things’. And sometimes when you combine those, it can lead to disruptions of relationships as one of the things that sometimes happens under ‘Venus-Uranus-type’ transits, in terms of a less-constructive manifestation.
AC: One of my favorite ways to describe hard aspects between Venus and Uranus is ‘emotional breakthroughs and breakdowns’, sometimes the two being one and the same. But there can be a cracking of the pattern of normal relating, which could be good, which could be bad.
KS: Yes. And I agree with what you guys are saying. I think it’s the change to the usual rules of engagement around dating, relationships, what have you. And then I would take it a little step further. This is Venus in dignity, in her own sign, and there may be some welcome or positive changes. You know, a change to the normal way of dating or relationship is that if you’re single, you might actually meet someone who you really like while you’re scrolling through match.com or whatever other way that you’re connecting with people. If you’re in a relationship, it might be that your partner surprises you with something like tickets to a show or a weekend away. And it is a shock and it is a surprise, and maybe you do have to rush around and get a babysitter for the kids, or you have to change something you otherwise had planned. The effort of the opposition is that if you’re prepared to make adjustments, there could be something. Cuz I think Uranus can be exciting from an energizing or activating perspective. So if relationships have been stagnant—whether you’re single or attached—there can be some stirring up that comes out of this, that creates a sense of movement or progress. I don’t want to come across as saying I think it’s all perfect, but I think this is Venus in Libra opposite Uranus. Very different from what we’re gonna see in future years when we’ll have Venus in Scorpio opposite Uranus, which will have a very different flavor and feel.
CB: Yeah, definitely. And those keywords of ‘innovation’ and ‘excitement’ are definitely huge, positive, Uranus keywords, and it brings to Venus innovation in the sphere of relationships; or bringing unexpected excitement to that area, especially if done consciously or constructively, can be a really positive thing. Sometimes it comes out of nowhere, though. And that’s a surprise in terms of being some excitement or some innovation in the area that you’re not anticipating or that you didn’t plan for.
KS: Absolutely. And the shock is always destabilizing.
CB: Sure.
AC: I think ‘spontaneity’ is a place where Venus and Uranus can get along.
CB: Spontaneity.
KS: Yeah, that’s a really good keyword. Yeah, ‘spontaneous’, ‘impulsive’, ‘flexible’, ‘spur of the moment’. You know, it would be a great day or a great weekend to make a last-minute plan, either with a romantic partner or with a close friend. You know, they’ll already have plans; this would be a good weekend to reach out anyway.
CB: Sure. Again, the traditional—in the past few decades—delineations of Venus-Uranus aspects is that sometimes when a relationship starts under that configuration, or when that’s a major signature in the relationship, sometimes it can indicate something that starts very quickly and is very unexpected and exciting but has a high burn rate, or doesn’t have as much of a staying power as other placements, like Saturn or Jupiter or something like that.
AC: Yeah. Or there might be an ‘on-off’ pattern.
KS: Yes.
CB: Right.
KS: I mean, one of the more productive ways I’ve seen Venus-Uranus transits manifest in clients’ relationship lives is somebody’s work schedule changes, where they have to start traveling interstate, or they’re now going on night shifts while they are on day shifts. So that’s where we get that hot-and-cold, off-and-on, which still can be functional. Like the separation doesn’t have to be you break up and that’s it. But we’re getting more of that changeable, ‘how are we gonna work around this because it’s not what we expected’.
AC: Yeah, I’ve seen exactly that a number of times where the distance is physical distance.
KS: Yes. Yeah, I always think about—actually, just as you said that, Austin—you’ll either get emotional distance or physical distance. And sometimes you have physical distance, but emotional closeness, and sometimes you have emotional distance, even though you have physical closeness; and either of those things can be worked through, I guess, with this.
CB: Yeah, that’s one of the things about how people who have that strong as a chart signature often make that work; it’s through having a unique or an unconventional relationship type. And that in and of itself allows it to be a long-term thing because it’s incorporating that Uranus energy in a constructive manner, rather than just allowing it to make the relationship unstable or something like that, or short term.
KS: Yeah.
CB: The ones that are able to make it long term often have some sort of ‘Uranus’ component that they’ve successfully integrated. Or not even successfully. Cuz it’s not always something that’s consciously done. Sometimes it’s just the nature of the relationship imposes this unique or odd or unconventional signature onto it, and that’s part of what makes it work just in the composition of the relationship itself.
KS: Yeah. And I think that probably speaks to the difference between a natal Uranus 7th house or Venus aspect versus the transiting one. You know, this is a fleeting transit. I mean, it will be the weekend kind of thing and then Venus is onto other things. And so, unless this happens to hit something directly in your chart at that 25 Aries/Libra axis, for most of us it will be just that weekend of last-minute plans or things changing unexpectedly. And some of us might enjoy it a little bit more than others and kind of just go with it, I guess.
CB: Sure.
AC: Yeah, definitely. So let’s talk about the Sun in Scorpio and the Moon in Taurus.
KS: Yes, the other opposition.
AC: Yeah, the ‘lunation’ side of the lunation.
KS: Yeah. Well, tell us about that, Austin.
AC: Well, I’ve got some thoughts, Kelly.
KS: Of course.
AC: How nice of you to ask.
KS: I want to hear them. I’m just gonna be baking all weekend. So if anybody’s local to me and is hungry, come over that weekend.
AC: Nice, nice.
KS: Austin, tell us.
AC: One of the ways I generally think about Sun in Scorpio with the Full Moon in Taurus is, with Scorpio there’s such an emphasis on going beneath the skin and things changing. You know, it’s fixed water, right? It’s the river that’s never the same whenever you put your hand into it. And, you know, we’re kind of getting done with 2017, but it’s not done yet. You know, there is a bit of an ‘influx-ness’ about Scorpio, but it’s ‘fixed’ change, right? And there’s really nothing more stabilizing than a Full Moon in Taurus. I don’t know. I think about it as not necessarily putting the breaks on whatever changes, but now that we’re getting into the season, we can see where things are going, adjusting things so that there’s a more measured pace, right? If you need to slow down, slow down. If you need to add an extra couple of hours to your workdays, do that. But that sort of ‘moderating, Venusian, stabilizing, Taurean’ thing in contrast with the intensity-seeking planets in Scorpio. You know, I think about how I’ve felt since the Sun ingressed into Scorpio and Jupiter ingressed into Scorpio, and I’m so excited about doing all these things and beginning a new, year-long practice of this, and I’m fantasizing about the success I will have after I’ve done ‘x’ and ‘y’ work. You know, the Moon in Taurus is like, “Okay, but let’s take this at a medium pace,” and I guess I’m looking at that from the ‘Sun-Jupiter’ perspective, right? The Sun-Jupiter conjunction which is happening right now is the seed of, okay, what cool Jupiter stuff are you gonna do this year? How are you going to grow? How are you going to improve? And I can see the Taurus Moon sort of sanctifying and stabilizing the trajectory of those longed-for changes.
CB: That makes sense to me, also, cuz this is the midway point between eclipses. We had the start of the—well, not start. But we had the Leo eclipse that occurred back in August in Leo, and this is the next set of fixed signs—which is Taurus and Scorpio—before we get the next set of eclipses in Aquarius and Leo early next year.
AC: Yeah, that’s a good point.
KS: Yeah, I like the stabilizing piece there, Austin, because I do find the Taurus Moon is so grounding; it’s so anchoring. And the slowing down is as much for nourishment and healing and care. It’s not designed just to make you slow. It’s almost a mindfulness piece. Are you paying attention so that you’re participating in the things that really have meaning? And that may be part of that interplay between the Sun-Jupiter versus the Moon in Taurus.
CB: Definitely.
AC: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense to me.
CB: All right, so that is our first lunation, and that’s really the first major thing that happens in November, around November 4. Immediately after that, I mean, we start getting a bunch of ingresses. So Mercury moves into Sagittarius. It moves out of Scorpio and into Sagittarius on November 5, I believe; somewhere around there. And then immediately after that, we get Venus leaving Libra and moving into Scorpio on November 7, right?
KS: Yes. So that is interesting. We’ll have Mercury in Sag, Venus in Scorpio, and Mars in Libra for most of November.
CB: Right. That’s pretty much our main signature for this month.
KS: Yeah. And then the Mercury is also in prep for the retrograde that happens in December.
CB: Okay. Are we already there?
KS: Yeah, I know. I feel like we’re constantly talking about Mercury retrograde.
CB: Right.
KS: Stations retrograde at 29 Sag on the 2nd of December.
CB: Okay. So we’re a month out from that at this point. So 29 Sagittarius. So as soon as it moves into Sagittarius, it’s gonna start getting ready to go retrograde before too long.
KS: Yeah, by about mid-month it hits its shadow. So hitting its shadow and then starting to slow down in pacing as well.
CB: Got it. So that’s kind of interesting. Because of course we’ve got Saturn in late Sagittarius, and Mercury does catch up to Saturn in late Sagittarius. And so, that’s gonna be one of the signatures that that Mercury retrograde is about. It’s really gonna be one of the last transits that Saturn has before it leaves signs and moves into Capricorn, getting Mercury stationing right on top of Saturn, basically.
KS: Yeah, there’ll be two direct hits. Mercury will be, yeah, 27 Sag conjunct Saturn at the very end of November, and then retrograde conjunct at 28 Sag around the 6th of December. So it is. It’s stationing within a couple of degrees of where Saturn is. So it is. It’s sort of really emphasizing that. There is one other big Saturn aspect for November which is on our list, which we’ll get to as well.
CB: Oh, right. That’s right around this timeframe in early November, which is Saturn trine Uranus on November 11, right?
KS: Yeah, yeah.
CB: Okay. Yeah, that is a big one.
KS: Well, and that’s also the third hit of that, if I’m remembering correctly. Austin, will be able to tell me. Yeah, we had a couple of hits earlier this year.
AC: Mm-hmm.
KS: Yeah.
AC: That’s the last, that’s the final.
KS: Yeah, it’s one of those big ‘fire’ themes that we talked about for this year. I’m really interested to see how that’s gonna play out, especially for people who it’s hitting directly in their chart. I’ve had a lot of clients lately who’ve got planets around that 24°, 25°, 26°, 27° of the air signs and so are getting a Uranus transit and a Saturn transit. And it’s really interesting to see the interplay between ‘Saturn’s’ demands, which is like, “Have you worked hard? If so, here are your rewards. And if not, here is the consequence or penalty you have to pay,” versus the ‘Uranus’ influence, which is “I know you’ve been really head-down, bum-up on this project, but I’m not sure if you’ve thought about it differently.” That might be a very Australian saying.
AC: That’s great. I love very Australian sayings. I’m keeping that one.
KS: Totally. And it’s so Saturn. You know, it’s just blinkers on, head-down, bum-up, whatever you’ve gotta focus on. But Uranus is like, “There’s all this new technology, you don’t have to do it as hard, there’s an easier way.” I know for me, personally, this has hit 2nd house/10th house, and one of the big things for me this year has been how can I incorporate more technology into my work, so that I have personally more freedom to do the creative consulting stuff, which I love. And I don’t have to do as much of the ‘Saturn’ stuff because I’ve outsourced it either to a person or a software program which now exists, which didn’t 15 years ago when I started my practice. So there’s an interesting interplay with that Saturn-Uranus. I don’t know if you guys have thought about it for yourselves, too.
AC: Well, not so much for me. But I had a rash of, I don’t know, five or six clients in a row where Saturn and Uranus were very close to that trine, and there was a Mercury retrograde where Mercury spent weeks conjunct Uranus and trining Saturn. And I got many clients in a row who were all primarily concerned with how to build greater independence for themselves. They were like, “I don’t like what I’m doing, but I don’t know how to make the jump.” For a lot of them, it was self-employment. It was like, “How do I straddle the divide between here and where I want to be, or my day job and my night job?” And that seemed terribly Uranus-Saturn, right?
KS: Absolutely.
AC: By the way, I hope all of them—all of you, if you’re listening—successfully straddled that divide. That was some months ago. And I remember we talked about some strategies and timelines, but that was one way that I saw it a lot.
KS: Well, it is. It sounds like the interplay between Saturn and the keywords of ‘commitment’ or ‘restriction’ versus the keywords of Uranus, which are ‘freedom’, ‘independence’, ‘authenticity’. You know, are you bound to obligations out of duty or patterns, which would all be ‘Saturn’ stuff. Do you have enough courage to take a risk and do something that’s more individual or more meaningful for you as a unique person, which would be more Uranus. And I think, Austin, that interplay between salaried job versus self-employment/entrepreneurship, that’s a really lovely manifestation of this.
AC: Yeah, I mean, I didn’t delineate it, I just read for people and that’s what was happening.
KS: And that’s what was happening. But it’s wonderful how our clients just continue to teach us and deepen us around these symbols.
AC: Yeah, absolutely. What was I gonna say? I remember one of the things that came up a bunch was having to work towards freedom. Like freedom was on the other end of a ‘Saturn’ tunnel.
KS: Yeah.
AC: I remember using the metaphor of digging your way out of prison with a spoon, which I suppose people have actually done but sounds rather fantastic. But it’s like the way out is like, “Uh, this sucks.” But then on the other end, you’re not in prison anymore and it is the opposite of sucking. Or like doing the ‘Alcatraz’ swim or whatever.
KS: Yes.
CB: Right. Doing what’s necessary in order to achieve liberation.
AC: Yeah.
KS: Perfectly summarized, Chris.
AC: Yes.
CB: One of the ways that I’ve seen it—I’m doing the podcast pretty much full-time so I haven’t been seeing clients, but I have been researching and looking at Saturn returns and stuff. And one of the ways that I’ve seen it come up that just been interesting is you already have all those people that were going through their Saturn returns over the past couple of years, who have Saturn in Sagittarius conjunct Uranus, or at least in the same sign as Uranus natally. And so, oftentimes there’s been something unexpected or sometimes something disruptive, like an unexpected disruption as part of the ‘Saturn return’ signature. And this trine with Uranus that’s happening in the sky at the same time from Aries, it seems like it intensified that for a number of people, especially the ones that had Saturn later in that sign.
AC: Yeah, what I believe later is closer to the exact conjunctions.
KS: Yes.
CB: Right.
AC: So if you were born with Saturn conjunct Uranus—because of the speed of Uranus relative to Saturn—the first Saturn return was always going to be the trine from Uranus at the same time as the return from Saturn, right?
KS: Right.
AC: Just under three Saturns in a Uranus cycle.
KS: Yeah.
AC: So especially only a third of the way in, there’s not much divergence between the two.
CB: Right. Yeah, it’s just interesting the ones that have the Saturn-Uranus itself natally as a conjunction, creating a signature that was very distinctive compared to the two or three years before that with the ‘Saturn in Scorpio’ people or the two or three years before that with Saturn in Libra. I noticed that the Uranus significations in the unexpected development that was the ‘Saturn return’ catalyst event being much more prominent. And of course that makes sense. But it’s just funny, sometimes you see those things, and you’re like, “Oh, yeah, of course. Of course it’s gonna be something unexpected like that.” And that’s a pretty straightforward manifestation.
AC: Yeah, totally.
KS: Very cool.
CB: All right. So I did want to mention—because we’re up to this date—the auspicious electional chart that I wanted to highlight this month, that Leisa found, actually takes place on November 9 of 2017, around 12:23 PM with Aquarius rising. So let me bring that chart up right now, for those watching the video version. Okay, so the chart takes place, like I said, on November 9, 2017. Set it for around 12:23 PM in your location; just whatever your location is. Don’t convert the timezone. But instead what you want to shoot for is having about 6° of Aquarius rising—or having an early Aquarius rising as the rising sign in your location—and then you’ll basically get approximately the chart that we’re recommending here as the most auspicious election that we could find this month. So we did find three other charts that are similarly but not quite as auspicious elections, but this is the one that we decided to recommend. And we’ll present those other three in The Auspicious Elections Podcast for patrons, which we’re recording tomorrow. So this is the chart. It has Aquarius rising. Saturn is in Sagittarius. It’s the traditional ruler of the ascendant in this chart, and it’s placed in the eleventh whole sign house, in a day chart. So it’s of-the-sect-in-favor, it’s in the sign of Jupiter. It’s in a good house, which is the 11th house. And one of the things that I love about this is that Mars has finally departed from Virgo. So suddenly we’re free of this string of charts that we were dealing with for a month or two, where anytime you made Saturn the ruler of the ascendant, it meant you also had Mars squaring Jupiter at the same time, which is typically kind of like a ‘no-no’ or something you want to avoid in terms of having an affliction to the ruler of the ascendant. So Saturn is free of afflictions in this chart, at least in terms of hard aspects with Mars. It’s also largely just free of other destabilizing things as well. It has a nice trine with Uranus, which is positive. It’s not too closely square Neptune anymore, even though it still is by sign, and it’s completely in aversion to Pluto.
Let’s see, so this after Venus has ingressed into Scorpio. So we actually have a nice Venus-Jupiter conjunction in the tenth whole sign house in Scorpio, in this chart, right up at the top of the chart. And Venus is still applying to the conjunction with Jupiter. We’ve integrated the Moon into this whole configuration by putting it in Leo, where it’s actually separating from a square. The Moon is at 4° of Leo, separating from a square with Venus and applying to a trine with Mercury at 5° of Sagittarius and a square with Jupiter at 6° of Scorpio. So it would be a perfect enclosure of the Moon separating from Venus and applying to Jupiter, if not for Mercury’s ray interceding, but it’s basically the next best thing. I think you more or less agree, right, Austin, in terms of benefic enclosures?
AC: Yeah, Mercury’s in a ‘constructive’ house. I don’t think it’s a huge problem. I don’t think it’s ‘a’ problem.
CB: Right. In terms of breaking up the enclosure. So yeah, and we’ve got Mercury in a decent condition here. I don’t think it’s quite in its shadow period yet. Cuz what degree does it retrograde back to?
KS: No, it’s not. 13.
CB: 13, okay. So Mercury is direct. I believe it’s not under the beams of the Sun, and it’s relatively well-placed. It is in Sagittarius, which is the sign of its anti-domicile or detriment, or whatever you want to call that. But that being said, it’s a relatively well-placed Mercury, all other things considered. During this timeframe in November, there’s this interesting exchange of signs between Venus and Mars where both of them are in the sign of their detriment, which is opposite the sign of one of their domiciles. But they’ve exchanged signs so that Venus is in Mars’ sign of Scorpio, traditionally, and Mars is in Venus’ sign Libra, traditionally, which there’s debates about this and the concept of reception and mutual reception with planets that are not well-dignified. But I personally tend to take the approach that it is an improvement to have two planets that are exchanging signs, even if they’re in signs that they don’t otherwise typically do well in. It provides a sort of mitigating factor when you have both of them exchanging domiciles, so that’s positive. Yeah, I think that’s basically it. It’s basically just a chart that has a well-placed ruler of the ascendant, a relatively well-placed Moon, prominent benefics in the tenth whole sign house, and not-very-prominent malefics, especially in terms of Mars not really making any hard aspects to other planets in the chart. So that is our auspicious electional chart that we’re recommending for the month, for general purposes. There’s probably some specific things that you could use it for that would be most effective, especially 11th house-type activities involving friends and groups, because the chart does feature the ruler of the ascendant in the eleventh whole sign house. But this is meant to be sort of a general purpose, relatively good chart that you can use for beginning most types of ventures and undertakings, all other things aside. Yeah, so that’s the electional chart for the month. So we have three other charts, and Leisa and I are gonna talk about those tomorrow on The Auspicious Elections Podcast, but I’ll save that discussion for there. Yeah, so why don’t we resume the forecast then. What’s the next major alignment that takes place after this period that we’re talking about, in the first and early second week of November?
KS: I think—you go, Austin.
AC: Oh, I was gonna say probably that Venus-Jupiter conjunction.
KS: Mm-hmm.
CB: All right, let me pull that up.
KS: 13th of November, very early in the morning. I know it’s like all of a sudden our faces get bigger with the chart. I want to grab a screenshot of that and tweet it, cuz we all look crazy, basically.
CB: I will send that to you later. I’m still getting the hang of sharing the screen while we’re doing these, but I think it’s a nice touch. Because then if you watch the YouTube version, you can see me animating the chart as we go.
KS: Absolutely. Nice to have the visual.
CB: All right, so here’s the Venus-Jupiter conjunction that you guys are talking about. And it looks like that takes place at 7° of Scorpio late on November 12th or early on the 13th.
KS: And this is right around the time Jupiter is starting to come out from under the beams.
AC: Right. So I just noticed that this morning, and I was like, “Oh, look, this is Jupiter getting out from under the beams.” And it’s Venus disappearing under the beams.
KS: She’s going in.
AC: Yeah, at the same time.
KS: Yeah. So it’s like they’re handing the baton. Venus is like, “I’ve been out taking care of things, and now I’m gonna duck into the fire of purification. But I’m gonna hand something over to you, and you’re gonna take it and run with it.”
AC: Yeah, and it’s interesting, cuz Venus’ synodic cycle takes a while. And so, Venus has been visible in the East. It’s been the morning star for a long time now. Yeah, visible in the East as morning star. And so, this idealized, 15° away from the Sun, under the beams, is the beginning of increasingly severely compromised visibility, which will then lead to Venus’ superior conjunction with the Sun in early January. And so, Venus is getting ready to disappear, and it’ll take months for the disappearance and reappearance of that full cycle to be complete; the different phase in the roughly year-and-a-half Venus cycle.
CB: Right. Yeah, and it’s taking place here in Scorpio. So, I mean, what are some keywords that you guys would use for a Venus-Jupiter conjunction in Scorpio?
KS: Well, Austin and I just got really excited about the technicalities there, the light and the visibility. But let’s interpret Venus conjunct Jupiter, because that is actually what I think is gonna be the powerful thing. So I’m interested to check in with you guys. Because on the one hand, it’s a conjunction between the benefics, and Venus-Jupiter could be ‘growth’ or ‘expansion’ or ‘opportunities’ to do with ‘love’, to do with ‘money’. I often think about Venus as ‘life’s little luxuries’. So the idea of maybe you spend a bit more on clothing, or you treat yourself to a more expensive dinner out, or you splurge on an accessory of some kind. But I’m intrigued about the ‘Scorpio’ component, and I’m wondering about whether this is sort of also revelatory at an internal level. That there are new ideas that you’re maybe mulling over or exploring but in private rather than in a public way; just to honor that ‘Scorpio’ feel.
CB: Right.
AC: That’s interesting. I think that’ll be true for some people.
CB: It was like a month or two ago—I meant to mention on the last forecast episode—but it was like there was some example in the news where there was like a public figure who was known for being divisive, but he was sort thrust into a situation where he needed to say something that was reassuring or uniting in the speech that he was giving. It was supposed to be like a ‘uniting’ speech, even though his typical manner of doing things was more divisive. And it was interesting watching that because I thought it was an amazing analogy for planets in the signs in which they’re debilitated in some way. Because the reason that they’re debilitated is that they’re thrust into a situation where they kinda have to do the opposite of what comes naturally to them. And the issue with that is that when you’re thrown into that situation, sometimes you don’t act as effectively, or it’s not as easy for you to do that thing because it just doesn’t come naturally to you. And I thought that was an amazing metaphor for planetary dignity and debility within the broader context of what we’re talking about. I mention it here just cuz Venus of course is in Scorpio, which is opposite to its sign of Taurus.
AC: Yeah, that’s a good analogy.
CB: So in that context, what are some of the keywords that you guys sometimes use? We’ve talked a little bit about Jupiter in Scorpio. But what are some of the things that you guys associate with Venus in Scorpio?
KS: Do you want to start, Austin?
AC: Well, I was thinking any Venus-Jupiter conjunction is going to be about ‘glorious beneficence’ and ‘pleasure’ in a particular area. And in Scorpio, in one of the signs of Mars, in the sign of a malefic, I think about ‘hurting yourself with some delicious food’. You know, like the potential for ‘debaucherous excess’ is absolutely there, more so even than the Taurus Full Moon.
KS: Because of the ‘detriment’ factor of Venus here, Austin, is what you’re referring to there?
AC: That’s a contributing factor.
KS: Okay.
AC: I think Jupiter in Scorpio is also like that.
KS: Okay.
AC: I do think with Venus in Scorpio, one of the things people with Venus in Scorpio sometimes experience is a sort of ‘fatal attraction’, where they’re attracted to people or things that are a little bit dangerous. And maybe that’s actually part of the fun, right? A little bit of poison can sometimes be medicine, but sometimes it’s just poison.
KS: Yeah.
CB: ‘Fatal attraction’, that’s a great keyword for Venus in Scorpio.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Yeah, it doesn’t have to involve boiling bunnies or relationship horror movies, but that’s certainly the cartoon version of it. But there’s a flirting with—
KS: Danger.
AC: Yeah, flirting with danger, flirting with what is potentially toxic or potentially dangerous. And of course what is toxic is dangerous. You know, whenever I turn my mind towards Scorpio, I always end up with ‘poison’ metaphors. You can’t make antivenom, you can’t make the cure for poison without poison, right? You don’t cure a snake bite with juice from a plant. You cure it with the processed form of that snake’s poison. You know, there’s also the controversial process of being vaccinated, where a little bit of a poison is introduced to your system, and then your system learns how to deal with that and you become immune to that toxin or disease. When you’re playing with poison, the mistakes, you’ll have to pay a penalty for that. It’s not experimenting with cupcakes. Although it’s Venus in Scorpio, right? Poison cupcakes.
KS: Yeah. Or cupcakes with chili in them or something.
CB: Oh, yeah, that’s a good one. Like a habanero cupcake or something.
KS: Yes.
CB: Or a ghost pepper cupcake.
KS: Yeah, we think it’s gonna be sweet, and it’s very spicy. I mean, the first word I thought of when we said ‘Venus in Scorpio’ was ‘seduction’ and that idea of either seducing someone. So sort of using your powers, but is there a little bit of manipulation or extreme persuasion there? And then the idea of being seduced by someone or something, I guess. And then that dances very close to the idea of obsession. You know, getting obsessed with something. You know, is it gonna be Jupiter and uplifting, or is it going to be a little toxic and a little all-consuming because it’s in Scorpio?
AC: Yeah, I would say that Jupiter being there is very protective. You know, I think that in some ways Jupiter in Scorpio gives you a greater tolerance for poison. You know, it makes your system a little stronger.
KS: Your constitution can handle it, or the antivenom is handy.
AC: Yeah, it’s like a good luck charm for your underworld journeys.
CB: Yeah, that’s a great metaphor. Especially around the time of that conjunction, where you just have them so close on top of each other; cuz there aren’t any other offsetting things here that are pushing it in a more difficult or dangerous direction. But instead you have one of the more positive potential setups you could have—if you’re gonna have Venus making that journey through Scorpio—of Jupiter there to provide that protective or that affirming function. It’s saying ‘yes’ to that journey or ‘yes’ to whatever it is that Venus is trying to accomplish there.
AC: Yeah. You know, another thing with Venus in Scorpio, I always think of ‘gothic aesthetics’ with Venus in Scorpio. You know, it’s finding beauty in the macabre or horrifying, right? I don’t know. I think there’s plenty of beauty to be found. There are very few stories worth reading that don’t involve at least some sex and death. Those are of course not safe topics, right? Those aren’t safe things to engage with.
CB: Right.
AC: But if I were gonna release my new goth industrial album, I would probably do it on that conjunction.
CB: Yeah, I love that and your statement about attraction to danger, and that being an aspect of literature or music or art or whatever that comes up. And that does sort of inspire ‘Venus in Scorpio-type’ thoughts as a focal point of that in terms of the aesthetics of things that are darker or not normally glamorized in that way.
AC: Yeah, and like finding the beauty in it, finding the pleasure in what might first seem ugly.
CB: Right. Brilliant. I love that, okay. Well, I think those are some great keywords for that transit of Venus through Scorpio, especially as it enters the underworld after this point and moves under the beams of the Sun, as you guys were saying earlier.
AC: Venus won’t catch the Sun. They won’t be conjoined until January 8, and that’ll be most of the way through Capricorn when they do.
CB: Wow. So that is a long journey under the beams of the Sun. And that’s just the half of it, once it’s in the approaching half, before it eventually gets to the other side and then has another long journey emerging from under the beams of the Sun.
AC: Yep. And Venus will pop up as the evening star, right? Right now these are the last weeks of morning star. And then maybe late winter, Venus—
KS: Late Feb, yeah.
AC: Yeah, will then pop out on the other side, and we’ll see Venus as evening star for months and months.
CB: Okay, brilliant. So eventually, as far as I know from what I wrote down in terms of the notes from the Planet Watcher Calendar, the next major, notable transit this month is actually the New Moon in Scorpio, which takes place on November 18. Is that basically the next major thing? Or is there anything I’m overlooking here?
KS: Yeah, I think there’s the New Moon. And we’ll also have a Mars square Pluto aspect the day after the New Moon, I think. So yeah, we’re right around the 18th-19th, I think. Unless, Austin, you had something else to throw in.
AC: No, no. I think we should continue chugging along.
KS: Cool.
CB: All right, so it looks like the New Moon is at 26° of Scorpio, and it takes place on November 18.
KS: Oh, at 26 Scorpio.
CB: I think so. Is that right? Does that sound right to you?
KS: Yeah, there.
CB: There we go.
KS: Yeah.
CB: What did you—
KS: Oh, no. Late Scorpio always makes me think of late Taurus, which we have such a happy star there. Well, opposite the star of Algol. Austin, I feel like you—
AC: No, that’s a good point. As the Sun sets on that day, Algol shall rise.
KS: Algol will be rising, yeah.
AC: Yeah, I mean, depending on where you are on Earth.
KS: Location-wise.
CB: Right. That’s a good point.
KS: Yeah, there’s a heaviness around that star, so it’s interesting to have a lunation there.
AC: The last 4° of Scorpio aren’t necessarily the most traditionally auspicious place.
KS: No, the last few degrees of Scorpio, I don’t know. I find the last few degrees of Taurus because of the fixed stars there as well. So we’re in a more, I don’t know, is ‘troubled’ the right word? Or a bit down in the well, maybe.
AC: Yeah, I think so. I mean, that’s in the last decan. You know, in my investigation of the different decans of Scorpio that last one tends to coincide with people having to let go of things that they thought they were gonna get, that they didn’t get, or let go of people. I think of it as the ‘death and resurrection of desire’. That you have to let go wanting things to go a particular way in order to be able to embrace how things are actually gonna go. I don’t think it’s the easiest phase. So in one system it’s ruled by the Moon. In the other system, it’s ruled by Venus. I think of it as like growing flowers in manure or composting or grave flowers. You know, sort of one brings the other. With the compost, you have to let things get rotting and gross in order for it to provide the proper foundation for new, fresh blooms, right? You can’t skip the ‘gross’ phase.
KS: So it’s highlighting the importance of going through or embracing the ‘gross’ phase so that you can get to the ‘growth’ stage, I guess.
AC: Ooh, yes.
CB: That’s good. I like that.
KS: Yeah.
CB: And in our last lunation, we ended up focusing on the fact that the Full Moon was taking place in Taurus, and then the ruler of Taurus (Venus) was at that exact Venus-Uranus opposition. What’s interesting about this one, Kelly, you mentioned the Mars-Pluto square that goes exact the next day. And that actually happens to be the ruler of the New Moon in this instance, and Mars is pretty close to that square here at the time of this lunation.
KS: Yeah, like I have my aspect list for the month, and I just didn’t realize the New Moon was so close, initially, but I do think that maybe emphasizes that square aspect to a certain degree. And it brings in this feeling of a struggle for control or a shift in the balance of power; that idea of maybe Mars versus Pluto. It’s not pleasant, and it looks like needing to dig into or maybe picking at a scab, or having to deal with something that is uncomfortable or confronting. And I often think of square aspects as about adjustment. And Austin made a good point of letting go of not getting what you want or not having things turn out a certain way. And I think the square aspect involving the New Moon ruler (Mars) is speaking to that as well. You know, there are really big forces here. Do you want to push this boulder out of your way? Is that the most strategic move? Or is there a way that you can tunnel through it or actually side-step it? So there’s a little bit of a thing there about will and about force and how you want to deploy your will or your force out in the world at this time, I guess.
AC: Yeah, that’s good.
CB: Right. And the appropriate attempts to do that versus inappropriate attempts to exert your will or force in the world in general.
KS: Yes. What are the appropriate measured ways? I think Mars in Libra sometimes doesn’t know its force or its strength, or doesn’t use its force as fully or directly or clearly. So there may be an assertiveness component in here as well.
AC: Yeah, I think the move here is to kinda let the compost do its thing. You know, maybe kinda step back for a day or two around this and let whatever feelings that are bubbling up just kind of have a little extra space. And just cuz you feel one way about it one day doesn’t mean you need to change your trajectory. Yeah, like you were saying, Kelly, the move isn’t a Herculean act of forceful strength. It’s kind of letting the microbes do their job to change the material.
KS: And I do think your advice, Austin, around this time to maybe let the compost do its thing is probably a safe strategy, rather than trying to be a bit brash out in the world at large.
AC: Yeah, well, like we were saying with Mars square Pluto, in this circumstance, Mars is in Libra; and to a certain degree, when Mars and Pluto tangle, I think Pluto tends to win. And Mars is not at the height of his powers in Libra.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Right.
KS: There’s a different feeling over these couple of days, I guess.
AC: Yeah.
CB: Sure. Yeah, I mean, that’s kind of an intense lineup with that New Moon taking place in Scorpio, and then the Mars-Pluto square going exact basically the next day. The very next day, on November 19.
KS: Yeah.
CB: So it looks like things lighten up a little bit, though, a few days later. Because the Sun leaves Scorpio and moves into Sagittarius on November 21, I believe, right?
KS: Yeah, that sounds about right.
CB: Okay. So we have the ingress of the Sun into Sagittarius on November 21-November 22. Thus begins the month-long transit of the Sun through Sagittarius. Does the Sun catch up to Saturn before Saturn ingresses into Capricorn, or does it only catch up to it later? Do you guys know?
AC: It’s really close.
KS: I’m just checking.
AC: Let me look.
KS: I think Saturn goes into Cap first.
AC: Saturn beats him by about a day.
KS: Yeah, it’s really close.
CB: Okay, so Mercury does make it, and does have that—that’s actually a double-conjunction. Cuz it catches up to Saturn, conjoins it, and then stations retrograde at 29, and then it retrogrades and hits Saturn again. But the Sun does not make it there in time. If this was a horary—where those were the two significators—then that would be a case of, what’s the condition?
KS: I can never remember the technical term, but it would be a ‘failed’ conjunction.
CB: Right. And attempt to—what did you say, Austin?
AC: Oh, no, I don’t remember the name either. Yeah, where the two planets do not complete their aspect until they have changed signs.
KS: Yes.
CB: Right.
AC: Which means that it might happen, but it’s gonna either be a long time, or it’ll look totally different than you think, or it just might not happen.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Right. That’s wild. It’s right at 0°15’-16’ Capricorn.
AC: Is it ‘prevention’?
KS: Prevention?
CB: No, it’s not.
[crosstalk]
KS: I know. I’m using one of my horary texts to prop my computer up today.
CB: Anyway.
KS: We’re all annoyed at ourselves, but we’ve gotta give ourselves a pass on this.
CB: Yeah, yeah. And we’ll obviously talk about that more, because that becomes one of the primary things in December. And it looks like there’s a New Moon that takes place right at the very end of Sagittarius around that time, but just relevant in terms of the Sun’s transit through Sagittarius and that ingress that takes place around November 21-22. And then the final thing that takes place—as far as I can tell—is just that Neptune stations direct in Pisces the very next day on November 22. So we have Neptune stationing direct and a potential intensification of Neptune’s significations in Pisces around that time. Although it’s not really closely-configured to anything at this point, I don’t think. Is it?
AC: I think we’ll feel it through Jupiter. Jupiter is applying to a trine with Neptune at that point. They’re only like 2° off.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Right.
AC: I think the Jupiter in Scorpio will just get a little extra dark and dreamy.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Yeah, not a big deal.
CB: Sure. No, that’s actually a really good point. That’s gonna be a trine that’s gonna be completing not long after that, with Neptune stationing at the same time, which is not typical. So that would sort of amp up that trine more than you would normally expect.
AC: Yeah.
KS: Yes.
AC: I think Neptune is just gonna be feeding. Well, I mean, and Neptune being in Pisces is ruled by Jupiter, and they’re trined. You know, those influences are gonna be difficult to pull apart for a while.
CB: Right. One of the things I’ve been thinking about over the last month as more news comes out about different things that happened in 2016 during the Saturn-Neptune square that we didn’t know about or didn’t know the extent of it at the time—it was just reminding me all over again something I learned a decade ago through experience. When you’re going through a Neptune transit, it’s not often evident what it’s about. And when you’re in the midst of it, it’s not usually really clear what the point of it is, or you’re not gonna get the point when you’re in the middle of it. But instead it’s only once you come out the other side of it that sometimes in retrospect you can see what was happening. But at the time it’s just kind of mystifying or something where you don’t really know what was going on.
AC: Yeah. You know, on that note, just sort of lesson learned, watching the Saturn-Neptune square—which they cleared the exact square by the beginning of this year—I thought that the mist would dissipate more quickly. I think next time I see something like that, I’m gonna go for a more whole sign interpretation or a more ‘Tarnasian’ orb interpretation.
CB: Yeah.
KS: I love that.
CB: I think that’s hugely important. I mean, cuz that’s something I’ve noticed definitely with outer planet transits. It’s hugely useful in the context of studying mundane astrology and historical astrology to realize that that transit and the circumstances surrounding it start as soon as those two planets move into that configuration by sign. And sometimes you can see the subtle building up to that, or the subtle come-down from that. And certainly it gets more intense the closer it gets to degree, but it’s already happening when they’re in those signs. And that’s true even if you go back and study the Uranus-Pluto conjunction that everybody associates with the late 1960’s. You can see the buildup start as soon as those planets move into the same signs. And that actually is a really good and helpful explanation of why that conjunction had actually a much larger radius throughout the ‘60’s—and not just the late ‘60’s—than it did. It’s because it was operative as soon as they moved into those signs.
AC: Yeah, yeah.
CB: Yeah. And turning back to the forecast, I mean, that’s basically it. That’s the last major transit of the November, right?
AC: Mercury.
KS: The Mercury-Saturn. The Mercury-Saturn.
CB: Oh.
AC: So it’s the first of three Mercury-Saturn conjunctions.
KS: Yes.
AC: And because Saturn and Uranus are trine, it’s Uranus and Saturn.
KS: The three.
AC: Mercury trines Uranus and then conjoins Saturn. And then it’s gonna do both again, and then both again, right?
KS: Yes.
AC: So it’s Mercury pinging the Saturn-Uranus trine, but from the Saturn side, whereas in April-May, it was Mercury retrograde pinging the same trine, but from the Uranus side. So there’s a really nice symmetry between late May—excuse me, I think it was late April/early May—and late November/early December. And if you started instituting changes of the ‘Saturn-Uranus’ type, or got really excited about it during that part of the Northern Hemisphere’s spring, you might want to just eyeball where that’s going to be by the end of this month and the beginning of next month. Cuz this is sort of the wrap-up. This is a rather dramatic last note sounded in that series of Saturn-Uranus trines.
KS: And I think with the Mercury being on the Saturn side of it, I mean, Mercury-Saturn to me always feels like—I think I have a blog post on my website about Mercury-Saturn in praise of standards; and the story I always tell is my dad, who is a Mercury-Saturn in Leo. We’ve talked about this, I think, the rules of language. But I think Mercury-Saturn, it’s not just the rules of language, but it’s also organization to do with papers, contracts, and documents. So whatever you’ve given your word to and are you able to deliver on this, it is gonna be a three-part Mercury-Saturn conjunction. So that may give the opportunity to renegotiate timeframes or the scope of your obligation. But it really feels like, okay, we’ve said or we’ve talked or we’ve planned, and now we need to have the follow-through, the finalization, or formalizing things, which is all very Mercury-Saturn.
AC: Definitely.
CB: Yeah. And I think that whole conjunction and that stationing of Mercury in late Sag—the amplification that you guys were talking about will give us one of our final messages about this is what Saturn in Sag has been all about and a sort of summation of the past two or three years through some event or some key events that will encapsulate, in retrospect, what some of those things have been. And I know I’ve said this a lot of times, but I’m still shocked at how literal the manifestation of Saturn in Sagittarius has been over the past two to three years, and many of the keywords that we drew up, both through abstract mixing of symbolism, but also through some observation of past events in history and some empirical observations. I’m still amazed at how literal some of that has been with Saturn in Sagittarius over the past two to three years. I mean, we’ll have to do the same thing and try to draw out some pretty literal, straightforward, ‘Saturn in Capricorn’ symbolism and see if we can recreate that with a ‘Saturn in Capricorn’ episode here pretty soon.
AC: Yeah, definitely. I’m just starting to get obsessed with Saturn in Capricorn.
KS: Yeah.
CB: You guys are getting into that and starting to get some articles going for that ingress?
AC: Yeah, I’ve got some themes and some ideas and some images, but there’s much more to do.
CB: Sure. It’s a little bit trickier for me because it’s just Saturn almost being purely Saturn in some ways, whereas it’s almost a little bit easier to mix different keywords for Saturn in Sagittarius. There was something that was kind of straightforward about that and literal, whereas you’re focusing more on Saturn in and of itself as it’s going through its own sign.
AC: With that Pluto co-presence the whole time.
KS: Correct.
CB: Sure. Yeah, that is gonna be fun when we get the exact Saturn-Pluto conjunction here before too long.
KS: I have had some students ask me about this already. And I think the Saturn-Pluto, I mean, it’s going to get a lot of air time.
AC: Oh, it’s probably gonna be something we’re really tired of hearing about and seeing on Facebook.
KS: Yeah. But, Chris, to your question around we should do an episode, of course, clearly.
AC: No, we absolutely should.
CB: Definitely. Okay, well, let’s start preparing for that. Cuz I’m gonna be doing my ‘Saturn in Sag’ episode. So I might end up making this, if I can pull it off, the month of Saturn in November. Although I don’t know if that’s actually gonna work, cuz the ‘Saturn returns’ retrospective is gonna be a big enough episode to research and put together. I might have to bump Saturn in Capricorn to December, when the actual ingress takes place, but we’ll see what happens. And I’m sure by the time I do get around to putting it together that you two will already have written articles on your websites about Saturn in Capricorn, right?
AC: Oh, yeah, definitely.
KS: Yeah. And I’ve got my e-book that I’ll be working on this month on that, too.
CB: Oh, right, of course, okay. Cool. All right, well, I think that brings us to the end of this episode. We’re coming in at a solid 2-hours-and-13-minutes. So this was a more extensive forecast episode than usual, but I really enjoyed it. So yeah, thanks for joining me today guys.
AC: Yeah, my pleasure.
KS: Thanks so much.
CB: All right, so people can find out more information about everybody of course. Kelly’s website is kellysurtees.com—or kellysastrology.com, right?
KS: That’s okay. The old one still works, yes.
CB: Okay. And austincoppock.com of course is Austin’s website. You can find out more information about me at chrisbrennanastrologer.com or at theastrologypodcast.com. If you enjoy the show and you want to support it, of course become a patron. Be sure to rate the show on iTunes if you enjoy what we’re doing here, so that other people can find it. And I think that’s it for November. So thanks to our patrons who joined us in the audience today. I appreciate it, and we will see you again next month. All right, thanks everyone for listening, and we’ll see you next time.
AC: Bye.