The Astrology Podcast
Transcript of Episode 275, titled:
Astrological Generations: Saturn Signs of Millennials
With Chris Brennan and Kirah Tabourn
Episode originally released on October 17, 2020
Original episode URL:
https://theastrologypodcast.com/2020/10/17/astrological-generations-saturn-signs-of-millennials/
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Note: This is a transcript of a spoken word podcast. If possible, we encourage you to listen to the audio or video version, since they include inflections that may not translate well when written out. Our transcripts are created by human transcribers, and the text may contain errors and differences from the spoken audio. If you find any errors then please send them to us by email: theastrologypodcast@gmail.com
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Transcribed by Teresa “Peri” Lardo
Transcription released May 10th, 2026
Copyright © 2026 TheAstrologyPodcast.com
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CHRIS BRENNAN: Hi. My name is Chris Brennan, and you’re listening to The Astrology Podcast. Today is Wednesday, October 14th, 2020, starting at 4:32 PM in Denver, Colorado, and this is the 275th episode of the show.
Today I’m gonna be talking to Shakirah Tabourn about Saturn generation signs for millennials. So hey, Kirah – welcome to the show!
KIRAH TABOURN: Hey Chris. Thanks for having me.
CB: Yeah. I always am excited about different topics, because I usually am, but I’m actually excited about this episode because this is a topic talking about different astrological generations and how astrology can be used to divide up different generations into like, broad groups is something I’ve always been interested in, but I’ve never actually done a show on it. So this will be one of my first episodes, so thanks for joining me to talk about it.
All right. So you’ve been really busy, like, over the past year or two, and it seems like a lot of stuff – you’ve been very active. So you wrote – there was a series of books on different signs of the zodiac, and you actually wrote the Pisces volume that came out just earlier this year, right?
KT: Yeah.
CB: And that was from Sterling Publishing. You also are the director and have been organizing the Fresh Voices in Astrology conferences and events, which have been amazing over the past few months.
KT: Thank you. Yeah, I’m excited about that.
CB: Yeah. That has been really great. And then finally recently you launched your own podcast recently called The Strology Show, right?
KT: Mm-hmm.
CB: And what, you’re like, 10 episodes into that right now?
KT: Yep. 10 episodes in. We just covered all of the planets, basically.
CB: Awesome. Okay. And what’s the URL for that?
KT: You can go to TheStrology.com/TheStrologyShow, or just type in “The Strology Show” wherever you listen to podcasts.
CB: Cool. And I’ll put a link to that in the description below this video or on the description page on the podcast website. But so the focus of this episode is over the summer, you wrote this whole series on different Saturn signs for millennials and how you can break up the sort of broad Pluto generations which last for like, a decade or two into smaller sub generations based on Saturn signs, which last for about two or three years. And I thought that was a really great blog series, so I wanted to bring you on to talk about that today and to talk about the broader concept of just astrological generations in general. What got you interested in that topic?
KT: I wish I could remember what exactly got me into it, but I – yeah, it’s always been this thing for me to be interested in generations. I think when I first started learning astrology to learning about like, the outer planets and how they are these kind of generation influences, and then seeing like, I have personally pretty tight aspects from inner planets to my outer planets. And so I kind of look at that as like, a window into the broader generation. And yeah, I think that sort of started to spark my interest in like, sub-generations and what does it mean to be born during Pluto in Scorpio? Yeah, I think that there’s, you know, when you’re learning astrology and you kind of – there’s almost this idea that like, the outer planets, not that they don’t matter, but they’re not as personal. So yeah, I think for me it’s like, okay, let’s dig into this more. Like, what are they useful for? And kind of thinking about how to sort of like, dig into these three outer planets and look at them in a more generational context, because that’s sort of how they’re always framed. Like, they are generational, so yeah, I just wanted to dig into that a little bit more.
CB: Yeah. I like that as a basic concept, and maybe that’s worth dwelling on for us for a little bit here, just the idea that like, the seven traditional planets that were known about for the first few thousands years of astrology are like, the Moon, which moves through the signs of the zodiac in like, 28 days, and then you have the Sun that takes a year to go around the entire signs of the zodiac – the 12 signs – all the way out to Saturn, which takes, what, 27 to 30 years. But once you start getting into the newly discovered planets like Uranus and Neptune and Pluto, they are so far out in the solar system and they take so long to move through each of the signs that they’re in the same signs for entire very large groups of people. And I guess Pluto is the main one that modern astrologers have focused on in the 20th century that stays in certain signs for a decade or more, basically, right?
KT: Yeah. Exactly. And I think something – I had listened to or purchased and listened to Austin Coppock’s Generations class he has on his website. And through that kind of learned about how, you know, Pluto does have this cylindrical orbit, so it stays in certain signs for much longer than other signs, and Pluto in Scorpio is the one that it kind of zooms through the quickest. And so that got me thinking a lot, too, like, what does it mean to be born during this time when, you know, Pluto was kind of moving through the sign quicker than usual? And just kind of everything that goes with that, too. So yeah, there’s a lot there to unpack.
CB: Yeah. So Pluto, it’s like, its orbital cycle is 247, 248 years, so that’s super long, but it spends – like you were saying, because it has an elliptical orbit, some of the signs it goes through relatively fast, but others it goes through relatively slow. But even like, Pluto in Scorpio, which is one of the signs it goes through pretty quickly, it’s still there for how long? For like, over —
KT: I think it’s —
CB: — a decade, right?
KT: — 12 years, yeah.
CB: 12 years? Okay. So then it’s like, everybody born in that 12-year period when Pluto was going through that sign all has Pluto in the same sign and sort of has something about the same energy that was going on at that moment sort of imprinted on their chart collectively.
KT: Yeah. Exactly.
CB: Okay. So this kind of is interesting, because it overlaps with the idea from what is it? Like, sociology or from history that there’s different generations of people or that you can break up different groups into shared generations that have some sort of shared experience or some sort of shared, I don’t know if characteristics is the right way, because it’s not – that’s more of the astrology side of it. But one of the most famous examples for example is the Baby Boomers in the United States where there was this like, large generation of people that were born in the aftermath of World War II in like, a 10 or 15 or 20-year period between 1946 and the early 1960s. And that was partially due to like, a spike in the birth rate after the end of the war, I think, right?
KT: Yeah, I think so.
CB: Okay. So that’s an interesting thing, just that that exists in the study of society and history, and then astrologers have looked at things like that – like the Baby Boomer generation and associated it with specific Pluto groups, and I think that the Baby Boomer generation is typically associated with the Pluto in Leo generation, right?
KT: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then I guess it’s worth it to note that there are other ways of categorizing generations. Like I know a lot of astrologers will use the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions as markers of generations as well, so I just wanted to put that out there that Pluto generations isn’t the only way that astrologers kind of like, categorize. And then some even will look further into Neptune generations, too, which is really interesting as well.
CB: Yeah, definitely. So there’s different ways you could divide it up and stuff just depending on what you’re interested in or what you’re focused on and different ways that you might characterize different generations. So yeah, the Baby Boomers generally are like, 1946 to sometime in the early 1960s, which was just how historians or sociologists define that. And Pluto was in Leo from about 1938 until 1957, so there was like, a rough overlap there to a certain extent.
And then there’s been a couple of other generations in between before we get to our main one. One of them was Pluto in Virgo, which was like, the late 1950s through pretty much all of the 1960s, I think, into early 1970s?
KT: Yeah, I think that’s about right.
CB: Okay. And then after that, we had Pluto in Libra for about a decade generation or so?
KT: Yeah. Probably like 15 years or so. Yeah, and it’s weird, because this always bothers me that Pluto – like, the Pluto in Virgos and Pluto in Libras tend to be characterized as Gen X, but to me, there’s like, a very stark difference between the two sub-generations. But they kind of are all lumped in as Gen X, and that always really bothers me, because I feel like, you know, there should be some sort of distinct name for the two groups. Because in my opinion, they are very different.
CB: Yeah, definitely. And they’re hugely different, especially just generationally, and things that were going on. And you just think about, like, with the Baby Boomers, of course, they were born in the aftermath of World War II and they were raised in that context, and many of them came of age in the 1960s with some of the different tensions that were going on societally but also like, a lot of, you know, the ones that we know as astrologers who became famous astrologers were involved in some of the counterculture movements and things like that. So you have to think of it not just when the person was born and what generation they’re part of and what outer planet chart placements they had in their birth chart, but also later on, you know, when certain placements are gonna be activated based on later transits, like their Saturn return or their Uranus square or what have you.
KT: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I was raised by a baby boomer and a Gen Xer, I guess; my dad – they’re literally two different generations, because they have a little over two decades between them. So my dad, he’s about to turn 80 in two weeks; he was born in 1940, so he’s very much a Pluto in Leo, whereas my mom is like, very much a Pluto in Virgo, so yeah. And because they have this really large age difference between them, I definitely got to see like, the differences between Pluto in Leo versus Pluto in Virgo. They’re such different types of people, but you know, lots of other synastry that kind of brings them together.
CB: Yeah, that’s a really interesting point, though, just that one, that different people are born in different eras where there’s different societal things that are common and that they take for granted, and also though that they then pass some of that onto the next generation, and the next generation of their children or the people that come after them both inherit some of that, but also maybe react in different ways. Like, maybe some things they take on, but other things maybe they reject from previous generations. So you had a real view across two entire generations of some of those different things to pick and choose from in some ways.
KT: Yeah. Yeah, I actually think about that a lot. Like, you know, what does it mean for Pluto in Scorpio to have been raised by Pluto in Leos and Pluto in Virgos, and what does it mean for Gen Z to have been raised by a bunch of Pluto in Libras? And sort of thinking about the dynamics between like, the parent generation and the child generation, because I’ve been one of those people who was like, “I wanna have kids!” Like, I’ve always kind of known that; I don’t have kids yet, but I always think about like, are they gonna be born with Pluto in Capricorn or Pluto in Aquarius? And how is that dynamic gonna work out if there’s that square, that tension, between Scorpio and Aquarius – that same that I had with my dad with Scorpio and Leo, too, so yeah. I think about that a lot.
CB: Yeah, that’s really interesting, and maybe the different generations that maybe get along with or represent a continuation of some of their parents’ actions and values and whatever versus maybe some generations where there’s more tension there or there’s more conflict or more of a desire to break away in some sense.
KT: Totally.
CB: All right. So that actually then, you mentioning yours brings us to our main focus for this episode and this discussion, which is the Pluto in Scorpio generation, which you associate with Millennials, right?
KT: Yeah, exactly.
CB: Okay. So let’s talk about some dates on that. So we actually have a graphic that I’ll pull up here in a second. But what were the dates on Pluto in Scorpio?
KT: I believe – I don’t know – I can’t remember the exact like, month, but I think it’s 1983 to 1995, I believe.
CB: Yeah.
KT: I don’t remember – it might have been in Scorpio in 1982 for a little bit, but I forget off the top of my head.
CB: Yeah, there’s a little bit of weird overlap there when Pluto sometimes is going back and forth between trying to make it into a new sign and sometimes retrograding out or retrograding back.
KT: Yeah.
CB: I’m having trouble pulling up the image; give me just a sec. But yeah, roughly those dates are correct.
KT: Yeah. There is that weird, you know, when it comes in and out before it’s fully in. And then even like, 1995 is something that comes up a lot, because it’s one of those years where Pluto did kind of dip into Sagittarius for a little bit. I think it might have stationed at like, zero degrees or something and then came back into Scorpio. So there’s a couple months in 1995 where there’s this weird overlapping of Saturn generations and Pluto generation. But generally, it’s yeah, ‘83 to ‘95.
CB: Okay. So that’s Pluto in Scorpio. And then how are Millennials usually defined in like, historically or in terms of sociology? Do you know offhand?
KT: I think there’s the sense that – I mean, I think this is probably a widely accepted concept, but I think Millennials are kind of considered the last generation to be alive before the internet was like, you know, kind of taking over the world. We are the last ones that hold that memory of what life was like before the internet was widespread. So yeah, that’s kind of how I at least think of millennials – the kind of like, we grew up with it, but not in the same way that Gen Z, Pluto in Sag did. They were fully, like, I feel like the internet was sort of like, more integrated, I guess, as they were aging.
CB: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So it looks like – I’m just looking at the wikipedia definition. It says, “Researchers and popular media use the early 1980s as a starting birth years, and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years, with 1981 to 1996 as a widely accepted defining range for the generation.” And that’s super interesting, of course, then, just how that’s just whatever historians or sociologists that are defining that, but it works out pretty well or lines up pretty well in terms of that astrological definition of Pluto going through Scorpio from 1983 through 1995, and therefore encompassing that generation pretty nicely.
KT: Yeah, exactly.
CB: Okay. So we’re gonna be talking about people born in that span, especially between 1983 to 1995, and one of the things that you’ve done and focused on then is not just talking about that entire generation as a whole, but also breaking it down into sub-generations based on other outer planet placements of Neptune by sign and Uranus by sign, and then also especially Saturn by sign.
KT: Yeah. Exactly. And you know, I typically don’t have time to talk about the Jupiters, but I think it’s cool that, you know, Pluto was in Scorpio for 12 years, so we did get every single Jupiter sign. I think it started with Jupiter in Sag and ended with Jupiter in Sag; I think that’s right – yeah. So yeah, because the oldest Gen Z has Jupiter in Capricorn, so yeah, it went from Jupiter in Sag all the way through, which is kind of cool, too.
CB: Yeah, that is really cool, actually, that it get one of each and so it sort of covers the entire zodiac.
But in terms of let’s see, so in terms of Saturn signs, we’re only talking about, what, one, two, three, four, five signs or so —
KT: Yeah.
CB: — during that Pluto generation?
KT: Exactly, yeah.
CB: Okay. So it looks like it started with Saturn in Scorpio around 1983 through 1986, and that’s the first basically sub-generation of Pluto in Scorpio millennials. Then Saturn in Sagittarius from 1986 to 1988. Then Saturn in Capricorn from 1989 to 1991. Saturn in Aquarius from 1991 to 1993. And then Saturn in Pisces from 1993 to 1996.
KT: Yeah. And I’m sure there’s people looking at this being like, “But I was born in ‘88 and I have Saturn in Capricorn!” or whatever. Yeah, these are like, very – these are pretty rough dates, because there’s retrogrades and it’s kind of hard to show that in an infographic! But yeah, those are rough dates.
CB: Sure. But it at least gives you an idea, and then you can further specify if people just look up their birth charts.
All right, so you decided to focus – I see in the diagram that you’ve broken it up also by like, Neptune signs, since Neptune changed signs in there where it was in Sagittarius from 1970 to 1984, and it was in Capricorn from 1984 to 1997. And then you’ve also broken it up based on Uranus, which was in Sag from 1981 to 1988, and Capricorn from 1988 to 1995. So there’s those other, broader sort of categorizations, but you focused primarily on the Saturn signs, right?
KT: Yeah, exactly.
CB: And why is that, or what is it about Saturn signs that you feel like is distinctive or important to focus on, just in terms of different generations when combining it with Pluto?
KT: Yeah. I mean, with Saturn, it does take about two-and-a-half to three years to move through a sign, so it is a really good marker for sub-generations. And also Saturn being the farthest planet that we can see with the naked eye, it does kind of straddle this like, boundary between what’s real and what’s, you know, or what’s tangible and what’s kind of like, out there. And so yeah, it straddles that generational line, too, because we’re talking about the outer planets being these generational influences and how Uranus takes about eight years in a sign, Neptune up to like, 15 years. So Saturn kind of gives us this nice container of like, a sub-generation that makes sense to kind of like, study and look deeper into.
CB: Yeah, and especially this year within the context of the Saturn-Pluto conjunction which occurred at the beginning of January, and then the subsequent explosion of the coronavirus and the pandemic and just the ways that that’s obviously changed the world very tangibly in the aftermath of that and will have huge ramifications that we can’t even fully understand or anticipate at this point but we just know it has shaken up the world in a major way. I think we’ve seen – or astrologers have seen – how important the Saturn-Pluto cycle can be in just major dramatic tangible shifts in society.
KT: Yeah, very much so. Yeah, and then we also did have that shift of Saturn signs this year as well, which we’ll get again in December. We had Saturn move from Capricorn into Aquarius for a couple months, and that was cool. I kind of look at that as like, a glimpse into the future almost —
CB: Right.
KT: — so yeah, that as well.
CB: Yeah. And that was, you know, that was also dramatic few months when we had Saturn go into Aquarius and started that early square, the early part of that square with Uranus, which I think is gonna go exact the first time next year in the first half of next year or something if it gets that far, if I’m remembering —
KT: Yeah.
CB: — correctly.
KT: Yeah, I think it’s exact in like, February.
CB: February, okay.
KT: Yeah.
CB: Next year there’s a lot of really interesting stuff like that, but that was also a nice glimpse into a generational shift and just knowing that we’re gonna be experiencing that a lot for the next couple of years that Saturn is going through Aquarius.
KT: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, another reason to focus on Saturn signs, too, is because like, you get a Saturn return pretty early on in life as opposed to like, a Uranus return, which doesn’t happen ‘til you’re like, 81. So yeah, that’s another thing, because I kind of look at Saturn sub-generations as like, focusing in on what that group’s sort of like, responsibility is in the larger context of society and what they’re sort of meant to build and cultivate. And I kind of look at the Saturn return as a defining moment in that and sort of like, realizing what that responsibility is and yeah, kind of making more tangible moves towards building that. Building, you know, whatever structures or systems that that person or that sub-group is called to bring forth.
CB: Yeah. So each generation or each sub-generation of Saturn placements and Pluto placements has certain like, potentials, but you feel like it’s really when that generation has their Saturn return when Saturn returns back to that sign between ages of 27 and 30 that some of their contributions to society start becoming more tangible and more clear?
KT: Yeah. Exactly. And that’s sort of when it’s like, put to the test. Like, I kind of think of that as when Saturn sort of gives you your assignment almost. Like, you know, okay, you made it through this first round! Here’s what you kind of have to work on building for the next 30 years.
CB: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense, and it’s been really interesting seeing the people with Saturn in Capricorn sort of finishing up their Saturn returns but getting this final major in some ways like, destabilizing type situation towards the end of it with Saturn in late Capricorn as they’re all finishing up their Saturn returns. And then some of the Saturn in Aquarius people for that three months that Saturn was in Aquarius getting a little preview of what their Saturn return’s really gonna be about.
KT: Yeah. And you know, the Saturn in Capricorn folks – excuse me – already have, were already born during the Uranus-Neptune conjunction with Saturn there too, so it’s like, they were already born during these unstable times, and then they kind of get thrown with the Saturn-Pluto conjunction in Capricorn, and you know, I just – I’m not envious! I’m kind of glad I have the Saturn in Aquarius, so yeah. I’ve seen a lot of friends move through that, and it’s definitely a lot.
CB: Yeah. Let me share the chart for those watching the video version, and I’ll take it back to like, the late 1980s. Because that pileup in Capricorn of those three outer planets of Uranus and Saturn and Neptune in Capricorn was pretty dramatic in the late 1980s and early 1990s. And I remember a lot of astrologers back then associated that to some extent with the fall of the Soviet Union and the dissolution of the Soviet Union at the time and just what a major world-changing sort of shakeup that was. But it’s been interesting seeing a lot of people that were born during that time going through their Saturn returns over the past few years since 2017 and seeing – it hasn’t just been like, a pure Saturn return, because there’s been these major Neptune elements of sometimes idealism and also sometimes these Uranus elements of like, sudden and somewhat dramatic changes at the same time.
KT: Yeah, exactly. And I think – did – yeah, so then there was – sorry, Uranus and Neptune were also kind of hanging out in Sagittarius when Saturn – maybe they weren’t both there. But I know that there was like, a whole little sub-generation with Saturn conjunct Uranus in Sag, too, so that kind of like, continued on when they moved into Capricorn as well. So yeah, the interesting conjunctions of the other outer planets to Saturn during the earlier part of Pluto in Scorpio is another interesting thing to look at.
CB: Yeah, definitely.
So I am – I’m part of the early Pluto generation, because I was born in late 1984, so Pluto was in Scorpio by then and Saturn was also in Scorpio. So I’m one of your sort of first early generations of this millennial generation.
KT: Yes, exactly. And when I wrote about that, I also talked about the fact that the South Node was also moving through Scorpio as well. So there was this really – for lack of a better word – intense pileup of Pluto, Saturn, and the South Node all in Scorpio.
CB: Yeah.
KT: Yeah.
CB: Here’s roughly my chart. Yeah. In terms of like, stelliums, there’s a lot going on there. So you know, that generation in the early to mid-1980s is kind of interesting, because it was those two adjacent signs kind of got the Saturn-Pluto conjunction, especially the Pluto in Libra folks who were just slightly before —
KT: Yes.
CB: But you get that Saturn-Pluto conjunction in Libra and especially the, like, I know a lot of astrologers now in retrospect associate with like, the AIDS crisis and some of the ways and the dynamics in which that changed relationships and things like that during that time in the early 1980s. And then a sort of continuation of that through the early to mid-1980s with Saturn and Pluto then going through Scorpio.
KT: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because I think of Pluto in Scorpio as like, the bulk of the AIDS crisis. And I remember being very young and right around the time Pluto entered Sag, I remember specifically thinking like, “AIDS isn’t in the news as much anymore,” and I was only like, five, six. But I remember it so vividly, like, being such a big story when I was little. And then I remember thinking in the late ‘90s, like, it’s not as – it just wasn’t talked about as much anymore. So yeah, I really do think of that as like, a Pluto in Scorpio thing, but it was definitely seeded right before Pluto entered Scorpio at that conjunction in Libra.
CB: Yeah. That’s a really good point, that especially in like, the second half and like, the first half of the ‘90s, just the raising awareness and talking about it and you know, making sure especially that younger people who were becoming sexually active knew about it was just a huge part of the culture at the time. Like, I remember one of the first CDs I bought, actually, was like, a TLC CD, and like, Lisa “Left Eye” Lopes always wearing a condom over her left eye just as part of the early ‘90s attempts to let people know, you know, that they needed to practice safe sex.
KT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have so many weird early memories about my parents talking about the AIDS crisis and just remembering like, seeing newspapers, like, yeah. Weird early memories, but it stuck with me.
CB: Right. Yeah. So that’s an important and defining sort of early first part of that generation, or I guess that really goes through a large part of the millennial generation in its entirety in terms of Pluto in Scorpio. Are there any other major themes? What are some other major themes about the first sub-generation of Saturn in Scorpio that we should talk about?
KT: Yeah, so when I wrote about Saturn in Scorpio in the Pluto in Scorpio generation, I kind of categorized it as the sub-generation that took loss and grief to another level. I just kind of think of it as this, yeah, this sub-generation – it’s weird talking to you, because you’re a part of it! But —
CB: Right!
KT: — the sub-generation —
CB: I’ll just pretend I’m not here and just talk about it abstractly!
KT: But yeah, the sub-generation that I think kind of took it – made it their responsibility to learn how to process grief and loss and these like, really difficult emotional psychological states, and like, the way that I’ve kind of witnessed it personally is at their Saturn returns, and you know, past too, it just seems like there was this responsibility to like, help people – like, share how they’ve moved through really difficult things sort of in this way that can potentially help other people. And so I kind of look at that sub-generation as sort of like the foreparents of the present-day self-care, even self-help, but more like self-care movement, if you will. Obviously they weren’t like, the ones who invented those terms or anything, but yeah. I see them as sort of the ones who really like, really took it seriously to figure out how to like, move through and process in a way that wasn’t toxic. I kind of get a sense that a lot of those folks didn’t have the structures in place that supported them through those processes, at least when they were, you know, younger. And I think that they really took that on as like, you know, something really serious that they had to figure out because they didn’t wanna – like, no one really wants to end up like their parents, I guess. And I kind of just take that as like, yeah, they really took it seriously. Like, kind of letting go of a lot of more toxic or even abusive – even if it’s abusive to the self sort of ways of taking care or ways of like, processing really difficult stuff instead of just like, burying it and maybe doing the stereotypically Scorpio thing of like, retention and holding onto it and just kind of burying it deep down. It seems like this sub-generation took seriously the need for processing and moving through those things and not just holding them inside of themselves.
CB: Right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So Saturn being – or Scorpio being a water sign and that being one of the really important elements of that and having the intensity of a Saturn-Pluto conjunction, but having it in a water sign which sometimes is more internal or sometimes more emotional in some sense.
KT: Yeah. It’s like, muted in a way, I think. Like, yeah, like an explosion underwater sort of thing. Like, it’s very internalized.
CB: I remember one of my favorite Saturn – Leisa Schaim and I used to write a blog called Saturn Return Stories, and I remember sort of when I was going through my Saturn return between Saturn in Scorpio back in 2013-2015 watching some of my peers and sometimes watching celebrities that were in my sub-generation, like Saturn in Scorpio group, and like, observing how they were going through it. And it was always really fascinating, you know, seeing everybody going through that simultaneously at the same time and seeing very similar – even when they were internal expressions, like, sometimes internal expressions that were collective or that were shared among groups of people. But one of them that was always my favorite was Donald Glover, who is the rapper Childish Gambino, and – because I had watched him on YouTube since originally he was in like, a comedy troupe called Derrick Comedy and I’d watched since the very early days. So he was somebody I identified with seeing him go from just doing like, you know, joke YouTube videos to being a major comedian, being in major networks, and eventually major movies and becoming a musician and everything else. But I remember there was this period where he was going through his Saturn return and he disappeared from social media, and everybody started speculating about what was up with him and if he was in trouble or something. And it turned out that he was just going through a sort of like, dark night of the soul period, but he was also preparing for the release of this album. But he ended up sharing this series of notes on his Instagram page at one point when he was in the middle of his Saturn return which I always thought was really emblematic or descriptive of Saturn in Scorpio and some of the like, real things that he was struggling with at the time. So some of these like, handwritten notes that he wrote, he was like, one of the notes said, “I’m afraid of the future. I’m afraid my parents won’t live long enough to see my kids. I’m afraid my show will fail. I’m scared my girl will get pregnant, and at not at the exact time we want. I’m scared I’ll never reach my potential. I’m afraid she’s still in love with that dude. I’m scared I’ll never grow up out of” this skit that he wrote one time when he was younger that was kind of controversial. “I’m afraid people think I hate my race. I’m afraid people will think I hate women. I’m afraid” – or he says, “I hate people can say anything. I hate caring what people think. I’m afraid there’s someone better for you or me. I feel like I’m letting everyone down.” And he keeps going on and on with like, all these different things that were just really intense and really personal. But it was amazing seeing somebody going through their Saturn return that sort of shared that, and you could kind of see his internal process happening in real time.
KT: “I’m scared I’ll be Tyrese” is kind of funny!
CB: Right! It is funny. But it was actually true! It was a real —
KT: Yeah.
CB: — like thing at the time was like, this was 2013, so it was like, would he kind of fade away? But ironically then what happened is he released his album right after this a few months later, Because the Internet, and that was the album that kind of set him apart more as like, an actual musician where people started taking him a little bit more seriously. And after that point, his career really did take off. But he had to go through this really intense period first where there was a lot of internal questioning and a lot of, you know, a good Saturn signification, which is fear.
KT: Fear.
CB: A lot of fear.
KT: Depression. Yeah.
CB: Right.
KT: Yeah. I kind of look at this sub-generation as like, this group of people who have just been through like, some really, really heavy dark shit, basically. And how they have been able to like, yeah, kind of go to this really dark place and sort of like, get something out of that that’s really remarkable in my opinion. You know, I have the Sun conjunct Pluto in Scorpio, but I am still like, you guys with the South Node and Pluto and Saturn, and you with the Sun too? I’m just like, that to me just shows like, a tremendous amount of emotional strength, you know? Like, strength too being a Mars-ruled sign. Yeah, I don’t know – with the South Node there, I just kind of feel like there’s almost this like, I don’t know. Maybe I’m in my head too much about it, but to me it feels like there’s this idea of like, okay, we’ve been here before and we’ve moved through it. Like, we’ve gotten through this before, and by “before,” I mean, maybe that means early life, maybe that means past life, but sort of just being able to draw on this like, well of emotional strength that’s kind of how I see that sub-generation.
CB: Yeah. Definitely. That makes a lot of sense. And so you’re Pluto in Scorpio, but what’s your Saturn sub-generation?
KT: I’m Saturn in Aquarius, so —
CB: Okay.
KT: — I actually had two Saturn returns already this year, which is wild. Mine’s pretty early in Aquarius; it’s at one 49, so I had —
CB: Okay, so you already —
KT: — like, the station —
CB: — had – yeah, you had the first exact hit already.
KT: Yeah, I had two. One in April and one in May. My third one’s in January.
CB: Okay. Nice. Well, that’s nice to sort of get it out of the way pretty early, and it seems like —
KT: Yeah.
CB: — it’s going relatively well for you.
KT: It is. Saturn’s the most dignified planet in my chart, so it’s definitely – it hasn’t been easy, but I feel like I have a little bit of Saturn return privilege.
CB: Sure.
KT: 12th house, day chart, like, in its own sign. It’s doing pretty well.
CB: Yeah. That’s a real thing, and that’s a funny thing that probably should be talked about more is like, Saturn return privilege of the people that go through their Saturn returns and they do relatively well. And it’s like a period of just like, applying yourself, and you go through some surmountable difficulties, but you push through and you come out on top.
KT: Yeah.
CB: And just that experience that some people have, which you know, accidentally then sometimes makes them turn around and think – or say to other astrologers – like, that’s all it takes; you just gotta work really hard, and you’ll be fine. But then it’s like, some people – if Saturn’s a little bit more difficultly placed, like, it might be a much harder time or it might be a period where life says, like, no to certain things that you were doing, and there’s no getting around that or negotiating it. And that can be a little bit harder.
KT: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I always – whenever someone asks me about my Saturn return, I have to qualify like, I’m pretty blessed with my Saturn placement. So you know, while it was really difficult, especially with coinciding with quarantine and the virus, for me it was just like, okay, now I have to meditate every day or else my anxiety and my fear around what’s happening in the world is gonna take over my life. So Saturn really like, forced me into this like, daily meditation practice while my Saturn return was happening, which you know, like, yeah, the fear and anxiety, it was like, terrible. But it wasn’t as bad as, you know, it was just fear and anxiety. It wasn’t actually anything manifesting. So yeah, that’s kind of , you know, part of what my Saturn return was like this year at least.
CB: I like that it was more – it became – the necessity was more of like, an internal, meditative process for you in order to remain centered and keep going. And what house is Saturn in?
KT: I have it in the 12th house.
CB: Yeah. Okay. So that’s pretty good 12th house, pretty constructive 12th house manifestation.
KT: Yeah. Yeah, but also, you know, worth it to note that Mars was copresent with Saturn during, you know, the first couple of months of that, too, so —
CB: Right.
KT: Saturn entered and then like, what, a week or two later Mars entered as well. So I had that sort of conjunction of Mars and Saturn on my natal Saturn, and a lot of us 1991 kids had that, and yeah. I mean, the fear was very real and really intense! But made it through, and really lucky that the last pass is gonna have Jupiter there instead of Saturn, so. I’m excited about that.
CB: Yeah.
KT: Sorry, I meant instead of Mars – my bad.
CB: Yeah. That’s something to look forward to. That’s the main thing I’ve been looking forward to all year is just getting to that Saturn-Jupiter conjunction, which I hope will help to clean up a little bit of the mess that the Mars-Saturn conjunction created. And I hope I’m not being overly optimistic about that, but that’s what I’ve been looking forward to, at least.
KT: Me too. Yeah. Also afraid of being overly optimistic about it, but —
CB: Right.
KT: — you know, looking at it, just the bare bones astrology, you can kind of deduce that, I think.
CB: Sure. All right, so back to – we talked about Saturn in Scorpio. Let’s talk about Saturn in Sagittarius as a sub-generation.
KT: Yes, my faves!
CB: Those are your faves? So —
KT: Kind of, yeah!
CB: So that’s 1986 through 1988.
KT: Yes.
CB: Roughly speaking.
KT: Yeah. They’re my faves, because in my opinion – this is what I call them. I call them the most fun millennials, because I think that they are the most fun millennials. You know, millennials, we were – I wouldn’t necessarily call us like, a “fun” generation. I think we’re amazing and brilliant, and we have so much to offer, but there’s, you know, we’re pretty for the most part pretty Saturnian generation. And when you get —
CB: You know, I don’t know what you’re talking about! I am very fun, and I don’t think anybody would – that watches the show – would characterize me as overly serious!
KT: I mean, you do have that Venus in Sag, so, I mean…
CB: Yeah, that’s true. That’s my friends; I have to import that into my life through —
KT: Yeah.
CB: — my 11th house.
KT: Yeah.
CB: So.
KT: But yeah, I think I really love this sub-gen because they have that Uranus – the Saturn-Uranus conjunction, a lot of them. Yeah, a good portion of them also have Jupiter in either Pisces or Aries, so we get that like, Jupiter in domicile ruling those Sag planets, or we get Jupiter in Aries ruling those Sag planets! So very fiery. And I kind of look at this sub-gen as like, the psychedelic, the ones who are just like, want to explore the meaning of life and sort of like, I think these people often reject a lot of societal norms and sort of like, what society says that they should be or should do. And yeah, they seem to be just really interested in like, okay, how can we make the most out of this time we have here on earth? And sort of like, go beyond. Yeah, there’s this element of exploration and just really wanting to grow their minds and think big and yeah. I really love this – these are the people that like, I love to go out dancing with back when that was a thing! These are the people that, you know, you would like, I don’t know, wanna go out into the middle of the woods and maybe take some substances with and just like, explore. Like, this sub-gen is really all about like, how can we make the most out of this physical incarnation.
CB: Yeah, I like that. Those are great keywords and definitely the sort of freedom-loving and I wanna say like, idealistic to some extent, although ironically it becomes much more the case when you get all three of those together in the next sub-generation when Neptune’s like, thrown in at the same time.
KT: Yeah.
CB: It looks like in the chart, these two planets are meeting up at the very last degree of Sagittarius at like, 29 Sag around 1988.
KT: Yeah. And then they have that squaring the nodes, too; that’s a lot! I saw this sub-group really struggled with their Saturn returns, and I had a lot of friends that had Saturn in Sag that, you know, as I was learning astrology watch them and kind of almost like, counseled them through their Saturn returns. And one of the major sort of themes that I saw was that they were sort of forced to, you know, conform in some way, shape, or form, and it kind of became about, okay, how do I still maintain an aspect of freedom in my everyday life while having to get a job and be an adult? Yeah, it’s the whole like, needing to mature and the pressure to become an adult was a lot, because there was a little bit of like, a Peter Pan syndrome with this sub-generation.
CB: Yeah, definitely. One of the ones I remember – I’m trying to remember all the Saturn return stories from that period of Saturn in Sagittarius just a few years ago, but the one I always think about for some reason is Shia LeBeouf, who was an actor, and in his early childhood career he was a child actor, was on Disney and stuff like that. And then he started going into big movies with the Transformers series and Indiana Jones. But he often wasn’t taken seriously and was treated as almost like a punchline to a certain extent. But then certainly by the time of his Saturn return and during that three-year period, there was this interesting shift where he was trying to do things that were more artistic and more he sort of got to a place where he seemed comfortable in his career, so he started branching out into other areas and just doing whatever he wanted. And what he wanted to be doing was like, typically eccentric art-type things, and went through this sort of transformation of remaking who he was and how he was perceived in the world in general as part of his Saturn ruling the Ascendant and being placed in the 11th whole sign house conjunct the Midheaven. But I always think of when his Saturn return went exact at five degrees of Sagittarius, I’ve never been able to confirm whether this was deliberate or not, but he did this thing where he went to a movie theater and they played like, all of the movies that he had done since he was a child for like, a week. And he literally during his Saturn return watched himself grow up and reflected on that as Saturn was passing over its exact degree. And I always thought that was such an amazing meditation on the Saturn return, whether it was deliberate or not – I really have no idea.
KT: Yeah, that’s amazing that that happened during the exact conjunction. Yeah. And thinking about, you know, he’s a night chart, and so the Saturn return maybe being this more difficult and challenging to move through and passing over his Midheaven and all of that, so. Yeah. That’s really interesting.
CB: Yeah, that’s a really good point. It was a night chart, and it’s ruling the Ascendant and the first house and the ruler of the first is typically representing like, the self. And one of the things that was just weird about that time is up to that point, he wasn’t very well-liked. I mean, just in general in terms of people taking him seriously but part of his transformation during that time was it seemed like he was able to sufficiently change his public persona to such an extent by going out of his way to try new sometimes artistic and sometimes kind of weird avant-garde experiments that he definitely entered like, a new phase of his life and career in some way. And part of that involved remaking his sense of self in some sense.
KT: Yeah. Wow. And it’s funny that you say that, like, the avant-garde, experimental, because he does that Uranus in Sag opposite his Sun, like —
CB: Right.
KT: — yeah, by degree. So Saturn coming to his natal Uranus and opposing his Sun too, yeah, I bet that was really challenging for him, like, internally. Yeah, and the square to Jupiter. I kind of look at the chart ruler in the 11th too as being just really aware of how everyone around you views you, or just being really aware of your place within the larger context of whatever groups you’re a part of. And so, yeah, having your malefic out of sect as the chart ruler placed there, it’s almost like, probably – he probably still doesn’t think that people like him! Probably still has issues with that. I mean, I would imagine. Ooh, I’m excited to see how that – there’s gonna be an eclipse on his Saturn too next year. I wonder what that’s gonna be about.
CB: Oh, that’s a good point. That actually – what you mentioned just raised a point I forgot about, that the art projects that he did – the like, series of art projects he did – were collaborations with his friends. So he had like, this close friend group that he was collaborating with, and that was part of how the 11th house Saturn transit was manifesting as well.
KT: Nice. Yeah. And that Jupiter in Pisces is kind of like a saving grace. That probably does speak to having a lot of like, really great friends that kind of might be able to take him out of that, like, you know, “everyone hates me” sort of thing. Like, I don’t know; I don’t know Shia LeBeouf. I have been a huge fan since, you know, he was on Disney, but I’m just, you know, speculating at this point.
CB: Sure. Yeah. Or having like, Venus trining that Jupiter, which is the ruler of the 11th as like, a helpful little thing that’s helping out at the same time. But his – it’s just one of the really useful things to remember that when Saturn is connected to the first house and a person goes through the Saturn return, it’s often both sometimes an external process as well as an internal process of redefining the sense of self and how you appear to the world and different things like that. I mean, one of the funny things also being Aquarius rising when I went through my Saturn return was losing my hair and deciding to just like, start shaving my head, and that being a big struggle and a big deal at the time. But it was part of my own process of redefining my sense of not just myself internally, but also how I appear to the world.
KT: Yeah. I had a really good friend who was really struggling with his Saturn return in Sag, and he’s a Pisces rising, so he has Saturn in the 10th. And he was just like, dogwalking at the time, and just didn’t know what to do with his life. He was really in a rough place with it. And he had gotten his degree in marine biology, and he was just like, “What am I supposed to do?” And I looked at his chart, and I was like, “Have you ever thought about teaching?” And eventually he got to the point where he went back to school and got a degree for teaching, and now he teaches science and he loves it. And it’s like, totally his calling. But it took this really rough Saturn return – and yeah, he’s a night chart as well, too – so it took this whole process of figuring out who he wanted to be in the world and how he wanted like, the role that he wanted to take on. Yeah. It’s similar in ways in terms of like, 10th house or Midheaven transits of Saturn and yeah, it being about like, what role do you wanna take on.
CB: Right. That makes a lot of sense. Do you – is there anything else about Saturn in Sag? I’m trying to think of if there are any other like, really good examples of that sub-generation and specifically their Saturn returns that stood out or were like, good examples of some of the different keywords that we’re talking about with Saturn in Sag or Saturn conjunct Uranus.
KT: Yeah. I don’t know. You’re the celebrity guy!
CB: Yeah.
KT: I’m really bad with celebrity charts.
CB: Okay.
KT: But yeah, I’m more of like, I know personal experiences. But yeah. That’s —
CB: Yeah.
KT: — I think we covered a lot. They’re the fun ones, basically.
CB: Yeah, definitely fun. I’m just looking through my files. I mean, one of them was like, Ronan Farrow; his Saturn return a few years ago, which was really coming out into his own as an investigative reporter and some of his contributions in the context of the Me Too movement and some of those investigations that he was like, involved with at that point.
KT: Yeah. And it seems like Jupiter in Sag last year really sort of like, blew him up even more.
CB: Yeah.
KT: Yeah.
CB: He’s a super Sag stellium —
KT: Yes.
CB: With like —
KT: Right.
CB: — the Sun and Moon and Uranus and Mercury and Saturn and the Midheaven there with —
KT: Yeah.
CB: — Aquarius rising, Saturn ruling the Ascendant, day chart, and in the 11th whole sign house.
KT: Wow. I didn’t realize he was late Aquarius rising too. That’s awesome. Puts his fiance’s Sun right in his 7th house.
CB: Oh, that’s nice —
KT: I’m obsessed with his fiance, so!
CB: Who’s his fiancee?
KT: Jon Lovett; he was like, a former Obama speechwriter – like, joke writer – and he has, yeah, he has this whole podcast with Crooked Media and he just does a lot of political stuff nowadays.
CB: Nice.
KT: Yeah.
CB: All right. Yeah, I think those are the main ones that I meant to mention just in terms of Saturn in Sagittarius. There’s probably like, other ones we could go through, but maybe that’s good.
KT: Yeah. Let’s talk about the Saturn in domicile sub-gens.
CB: Okay. So Saturn in Capricorn – that was from roughly 1989 through 1991. And as we’ve said, that kind of overlaps when Saturn was – or when Uranus was in Capricorn and Neptune was in Capricorn as well. So you get this super pileup of planets in Capricorn typically for them.
KT: Yeah.
CB: And that kind of brings up a point about stelliums that I’ve seen people discussing recently, and discussions about like, how many planets count for a stellium – if it’s three or four or more. And also to what extent personal planets should be involved versus generational planets. Have you followed any of that, or do you have any thoughts on any of that?
KT: Yeah, I mean, my thoughts – I tend to be very Jupiter with it. I’m like, whatever! Like, if it’s —
CB: Right.
KT: — if you wanna call it a stellium, call it a stellium!
CB: Right.
KT: To me, it’s like, if there’s a concentration of a bunch of planets in one sign – therefore, like, one house – that means something because that means that a bunch of other houses are gonna be ruled by planets in that one house. So yeah. I definitely see it as important and something of note. When it comes to outers, I don’t know. I think it’s okay to count – I think if there’s an inner planet there, even Saturn, I think it’s okay to count it as a stellium. You know, if it’s – like, I don’t know. I guess if it was just the two outers, it wouldn’t even be a stellium; it’d be a conjunction. But yeah. I don’t know. I’ve thought about this a lot, because I get a lot of clients who ask me about stelliums, and I’m just kind of like, I don’t know! If it’s three or more planets and, you know, you feel like it’s meaningful – like, I call my Scorpio – I have Sun-Mars-Pluto conjunction in Scorpio, and I call it my Scorpio stellium, you know —
CB: Yeah.
KT: — even though it’s Pluto.
CB: Well, and those are all pretty close in degree; it’s like, within five degrees, that —
KT: Yeah.
CB: — conjunction.
KT: Yeah.
CB: Okay. Yeah. I guess it’s – because people often that are new students ask about this, and one of the distinctions with personal planets is since the Sun and Venus and Mercury never get more than two signs away from each other, there’s a higher degree of probability that more people will have like, a three-planet stellium. But definitely once you get into four, that becomes much more unique just because then you have to have at least those three inner planets plus one more. But I guess that’s one of the things that makes this sub-generation really unique is having three planets in one sign, you’re automatically gonna have three planets even if at least two of them are super generational, it creates kind of a clustering in one part of your chart so that any time one of those planets in that cluster gets activated, like, all three of them are getting activated in some way.
KT: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I’ve seen lots of charts with people who have like, you know, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and the Sun, Mercury, and Venus all in Capricorn. So that certainly happens quite a bit. And yeah, I mean, heavy! That’s a lot!
CB: Yeah, that is a lot. So that’s a good point. So it means also like, if any inner planet happens to end up in that sign, then you’ve got four planets there just automatically for anybody in that generation.
KT: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
CB: Okay. So here’s a little chart with that. And also even from very early in that generation in the late ‘80s, those planets are all pretty close in degree. I mean, they’re within like, 10 degrees of each other – Uranus and Neptune and Saturn – and it wasn’t too far after that, of course, I guess in like, 1992, 1993 that we got the Uranus-Neptune conjunction that happened in Capricorn.
KT: Yeah. Yeah. This looks like my friend’s chart.
CB: Okay.
KT: I know a lot of people born in February of ‘89 a lot for some reason. And yeah, there’s that Saturn-Neptune conjunction was really, really rough for a lot of folks during their Saturn returns. I have a friend who has that conjunction straddling her Ascendant, so she has Saturn on one side, Neptune on the other, and her Ascendant right in the middle. And she’s a night chart with, you know, she was I think born a couple days before this – yeah, because she has the Moon in Aquarius with basically the same chart. And had a really rough – or has been having a really, really rough – Saturn return, so yeah. I’ve seen… You know, and I dated someone during their Saturn return last year who was also born in February ‘89 and has that conjunction in the 9th house, and for him, it was all about he had been in grad school – so 9th house – for creative writing, and what did he call it? Yeah, like, there was this weird combo of fantasy and reality that happened, but he was a creative writer and he was writing like, all this – was it nonfiction or fiction? Fiction’s the one that’s not real. Yeah, so all this fiction work, and really struggling with like, I think there’s just that Saturn-Neptune conjunction is really hard to like, hold onto – it’s like, really slippery! And I think it’s rough when you’re trying to, you know, during your Saturn return especially in Capricorn when you’re trying to build something of substance and you’re trying to build something that will last, almost like making your mark, which is very like, Saturn in Capricorn in my opinion – like, something that is real and tangible and that you can see and touch and, you know, like building a structure in some way. But then the Neptune piece just really made that intangible and I saw a lot of folks struggle with that. Like, trying to figure out how to like, be an adult, and you know, again, make something of substance when the Neptune influence caused so much immateriality and just kind of made everything sort of like, just not real! And I —
CB: Right.
KT: — saw a lot of people struggle with that.
CB: Like, trying to grab onto like, a fistful of sand, and the harder you squeeze and try and hang onto it, the more it slips through your fingers and falls out?
KT: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. There was – I’ve been really fascinated by sometimes in the more productive versions of that how there’s just been a major element of idealism. Sometimes in some of the people that were able to do the more constructive version of their Saturn return, there was often this element of bringing ideals into it that sometimes might even be overly idealistic, and sometimes running into the issue of like, their overidealism meeting the reality of what was possible. But still despite that and despite that tension, perhaps, their aspirations at that time being more idealistic and being able to bring some of those ideals into concrete reality in a way that was closer to hitting the mark than maybe other sub-generations who didn’t have that element of idealism as much as part of their Saturn returns.
KT: Yeah, for sure, the idealism piece is really real. Yeah. Yeah, and I’m just thinking about like, that coupled with Jupiter moving through Sag last year and how there was this sort of like, with Jupiter in Sag, it was this very like, think big! Like, anything’s possible sort of vibe, and then that being contrasted with like, moving through your Saturn return where it might have just felt like, you know, just such a heavy weight and so much pressure to make those dreams a reality, and just finding it really hard to do so.
CB: Yeah. One of the ones that I was watching that was more of a positive Saturn return story that seems to have gone well and seems to have been incorporating some of the ideals and incorporating some of the making sudden radical changes in your life and it somehow working out or pulling it off was the birth chart when we got the birth time recently of AOC, of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, being one of the Saturn in Capricorn people who had a relatively good Saturn return where things worked out.
KT: Yeah. She’s a great example.
CB: Yeah. So here’s her chart. So she’s also a day chart with Saturn at eight degrees of Capricorn, Uranus at one degree, and Neptune at nine degrees of Capricorn with Sagittarius rising.
KT: Yeah.
CB: She just has like, a ton of cardinal stuff, like almost everything in her chart is cardinal. The ruler of the Ascendant is Jupiter, which is at like, 10 Cancer opposing the Capricorn stuff. Her Moon’s at three Aries, and then she has a stellium in Libra with Mercury at two, the Midheaven at six, Mars at 15, and the Sun at 20. So it’s like, any time stuff goes into cardinal, it just activates all of her stuff.
KT: Yeah. And yeah, her Saturn return, you know, in the 2nd house did coincide with like, this complete change in her finances and the way that she was making money. Like, she was a bartender when she was running for Congress, and you know, now she’s a congresswoman. And so much of her focus is on like, money and budgets and making sure that corruption is being checked in regards to like, you know, banking and all the financial stuff that I can’t really speak to the specifics, but I know that’s definitely like, a big part of her focus. Chart ruler in the 2nd – I’m sorry, in the 8th, as the most positive planet in the chart, too, and exalted? I mean, that and then her Saturn in the 2nd, which is also in a pretty good – you know, it’s in a day chart, it’s in its own sign. I think it’s direct; I don’t know; maybe not. But regardless, two of her most positive planets in these money houses, so yeah, it’s interesting.
CB: Yeah, definitely. And just – I mean, what a crazy story that is in terms of going from being a bartender, and then deciding to jump into politics and ousting the sitting representative in her area in New York who had been established there for a long time, and that being also partially driven by her own political ideals and aspirations, but doing it somewhat suddenly and being the upstart challenger who displaces the old status quo. It’s just, there’s like, so many different Uranus and Neptune and Saturn in Capricorn themes there that are all getting tied into that story in a very literal way.
KT: Yeah. Yeah, when I wrote about this sub-generation, I kind of pictured this sort of like, almost like as if there was a city or a place that got destroyed and I kind of thought of as if an earthquake happened and a monsoon, which would be like, Uranus and Neptune.
CB: Right.
KT: And then, you know, Saturn kind of representing those structures that – or maybe even Capricorn representing those structures that were totally demolished during that period of time. But sort of this sub-generation almost acting as if they’re the architects of a new world. And I kind of pictured like, being in this rubble and seeing these fallen bricks and these fallen structures, and being able to see the potential in using that to build something new. Yeah, that’s kind of how I think of the sub-generation with like, you have this Saturn in Capricorn, which speaks so much to the old and to tradition and structure and authority and all that is, and how Uranus and Neptune – like, that’s just such a – like, seems like they won’t mix! And they – I don’t know, they probably don’t mix, but what you get out of that is this whole new way of – like, magic, honestly. I kind of think of it as like, these magical and also empathetic and also compassionate and inclusive people, I guess, who can build these structures for a new world. I don’t know – yeah. I guess that makes sense, right? Getting a little bit Mercury in Sag, a little all over the place sometimes.
CB: No, that’s perfect. And what’s funny is it started making me remember and think of, you know, we’re talking about this largely in the context of people that are born with certain generational placements and then what happens when they have their Saturn return and seeing some of that stuff come out and become much more concrete. But over the past few years, I’ve been noticing that that doesn’t just happen in birth charts, but it also sometimes happens in electional charts or the charts for entities. And one that I’ve been watching over the past few years is this local cafe called the Mercury Cafe here in Denver that’s run by a local astrologer named Marilyn Megenity, and she timed it. This was like, a timed chart for when this business first opened on October 31st, 1990, at 6:20 AM in Denver, Colorado, with Scorpio stellium rising. But it has that Saturn-Neptune-Uranus conjunction in the 3rd whole sign house. And what’s been really interesting to see over the past few years is one, it’s always been like, very idealistic, very community-oriented place where they host lots of local activism and sometimes fundraisers and different political things. They also host like, poetry readings or poetry slams and just a ton of different community events at this place, which is really interesting in terms of the idealism of the 3rd house with Saturn there.
But over the past few years since Saturn went into Capricorn, the Mercury Cafe used to be on the outskirts of downtown Denver, kind of in the middle of nowhere, but then there’s been this shift in the city over the past few years suddenly where there’s these huge disparities in the neighborhood that it’s in where on the one hand, all of these huge buildings started going up around it, and suddenly it went from being a business that was in the middle of nowhere on the outskirts of the city with nothing around it – just like, empty warehouses – to suddenly these huge highrises with condos – like, really expensive, flashy-looking condos – being built up around it. But then also these other disparities of that part of the city, there’s been a rise in the homeless population that have built up right around it in its literal neighborhood on the streets next to it.
So we’ve witnessed this really striking disparity, which an interesting Capricorn or Saturn in Capricorn thing as well of extremes of both wealth and poverty and it being like, localized to the 3rd house of this business. And then of course, at the same time this year finally with covid hitting, that’s been a huge hit to it, and it struggled as a business that normally relies on people from the neighborhood coming in regularly and doing community events there in person to suddenly like, that grinding to a halt and then trying to figure out how to survive as a result of that.
KT: Yeah. And it is like, a night chart too. I mean, it is very close to sunrise, but —
CB: Right.
KT: — there’s that. I wonder what’s gonna happen late 2022 during that Mars retrograde in Gemini. Since that rules the chart, I wonder if there’s gonna be any further developments with the cafe.
CB: Yeah. It’s gotta a Mars retrograde natally in Gemini. Yeah. But it’s interesting then thinking about not just, you know, people but also sometimes businesses that end up either affecting things around them locally in this case, which is a very like, localized case, versus let’s say major corporations or something – like, whatever the founding chart is for let’s say like, Apple Computers or other major companies or even governments or whatever that have changed the world in different ways and how these generational influences live on and are activated at different points through them.
KT: Yeah. That’s really interesting. You have so many good examples; I love it!
CB: Yeah. Well, I try to just save as many as I can in Solar Fire, and that’s one of the more useful things about it and being able to like, search through your database quickly. It’s something I recommend to everyone. Although because I’ve been doing the podcast more over the past few years and my courses, I haven’t had enough time to do consultations, so I’m kind of missing out on some of the things that you specialize in where you’re, you know, sitting down and talking to people about some of these transits and seeing them live through them in a much more personal way. And I kind of miss that as well, as like, another huge piece of this.
KT: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. All right. Are there any other things we should mention about Saturn in Capricorn? The good news is they’re finishing up their Saturn return right now; it literally just stationed direct at the end of September, and it’s making its final run through Capricorn between now and December.
KT: Yeah. Yeah, I’m so happy for them to finally be finished with it. I think – yeah, what I’ve kind of noticed is that Jupiter in Capricorn this year, there just seems to have been like, a stark difference. Although we had Saturn-Pluto conjunction in Capricorn and although Jupiter is in fall in Capricorn, there seems to have been this sort of, I don’t know, healing aspect that Jupiter brought to this last leg of the Saturn return for folks. And yeah, I don’t know, that’s just something I’ve noticed that there’s almost this like, bringing together of the past two years, and yeah, a little bit of healing and sort of like, showing people that there’s maybe a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel sort of thing. I don’t know. That’s just something I’ve noticed that this Jupiter transit has sort of helped patch up a lot of the pain points over the past couple years that this sub-generation has moved through. And yeah, I just kind of think of Saturn in Cap people as really like, really desiring to leave a mark in some way, shape, or form. And I think that they just really take that seriously. Like, their need to sort of leave some sort of tangible mark or build something tangible that will last. Something of substance that is gonna like, last for a long time. Yeah, that’s just something that I’ve noticed a lot about this sub-generation.
CB: Yeah. And it’s been nice with Jupiter in Capricorn this year. Sometimes this theme of especially in that generation of people like, how do you make something from nothing? Or how do you deal with a bad situation and still come out successful or come out on top despite that or despite whatever obstacles you’re initially beset with? And that’s been an interesting thing, seeing some of the Jupiter in Capricorn elements coming through with Saturn in Capricorn at the same time.
KT: Yeah. For sure.
CB: All right. So that brings us to the next one, which is Saturn in Aquarius.
KT: Yes. So this is interesting, because once Saturn entered Aquarius, it stopped being copresent with outer planets. So from the beginning of Pluto in Scorpio, there was Saturn in Scorpio with Pluto and the South Node, and then it went to Saturn in Sag with Uranus, and then Saturn in Capricorn with Neptune and Uranus. And now finally Saturn in Aquarius in the early ‘90s was able to one, enter its diurnal domicile – so some would say that’s the preferred domicile of Saturn – and it got to like, take a breather from being copresent with outers and even the nodes.
So yeah, there’s definitely a marked difference in that, I think. You kind of get a happier Saturn in a lot of ways. And yeah, I just I think – well, this is my sub-generation, and I kind of see the Saturn – so Saturn in Capricorn to me is so much about structures, whereas Saturn in Aquarius seems to be so much about systems. And those two things may be interchangeable in a lot of ways, but with Aquarius being an air sign, there is this sense of social – there’s like, the social quality to it, and I kind of see the Saturn in Aquarius sub-generation as really just trying to figure out where they belong. And then yeah, it seems to be so much about like, finding their people and finding those spaces that make them feel safe, and then creating spaces that make them feel safe. Yeah, there’s something about Saturn in Aquarius having to do with spaces for me. I don’t know if it’s a personal thing, but yeah, like just even thinking about social distancing and how that became a phrase right before Saturn entered Aquarius. But it’s sort of like, you know, during the whole Saturn in Aquarius period of time in 2020, that was sort of like, the name of the game – social distancing. And just the idea of needing space – like, needing to create space, which is very Saturnian. Like, the distance part of it. But then also like, actually creating spaces and containers through which socializing can occur and through which people can feel seen and, you know, held within groups that sort of like, you know, make sense for them. And groups that make them feel like they belong somewhere. I think that’s a really big thing with Saturn in Aquarius. And I think that’s gonna continue to be over the next couple years when Saturn’s moving through Aquarius and we’re having our Saturn returns figuring out like, where we belong seems to be a really big theme.
CB: Yeah. It was really notable earlier this year, this feeling of needing to figure out ways to connect with other people even though you’re separated or you have to be separated or even though there’s a distance between you, and the weird dichotomy between that or the tension that that creates, but then that driving or pushing people towards innovation as well as, you know, leveraging new technologies. Like, this is when everybody was using Zoom all of a sudden during the lockdown. And even if this was like, a technology that people like us have been using for years as astrologers doing consultations or even if Skype’s been around, all of a sudden everybody was using it because you didn’t have a choice. Because that was the only way to like, connect with people or what have you.
KT: Totally, yeah. And yeah, it’s funny, because it feels like the Saturn in Aquarius time period is when – at least for me, you know, Saturn also rules my 11th house, so there’s that too. But it felt like a true entrance into my community, the astrology community. And it became a time where I started talking to astrologers more than ever, like, on a daily basis. I’m still in a group chat with a bunch of astrologers that we all started talking like, in April during Saturn in Aquarius, and we just kind of never stopped! And yeah, I talked to more astrologers during that time period than I had my whole life, and you know, I’ve been in the astrology community, I’ve been talking to astrologers and stuff, but in terms of like, group spaces? Like, we were – there was a week straight where I was on Houseparty with like, five other astrologers every night for hours and hours and hours every night for a good week straight. And yeah, there’s this, again, this finding your people and finding those social spaces through which you belong and cultivating a sense of belonging. And then also I think the responsibility to create those spaces, I feel that heavily with Saturn being so dignified in my chart, too, and then also ruling my 11th house and my North Node and things like that. So yeah, like, for me, I feel very much called towards making sure I can create those spaces in particular for more marginalized people, queer folks, BIPOC folks within the astrology community. So it feels – there’s like, this idea of with Aquarius too being very aware of groups and like, where you fit in amongst even just like, your peers or society. And then there’s like, the groups within the groups within the groups. And sort of like, just finding your spot amongst that.
CB: Yeah, that makes sense. And one of the interesting ways I love how that’s manifested for you, not just with Saturn in Aquarius but also with Saturn ruling your 11th house, is becoming involved with and now becoming the director of the Fresh Voices in Astrology Conference where you’re literally in charge of hosting now. You hosted a major online astrology conference just, what was it, like, one or two months ago.
KT: Yeah, in August. Yeah. It’s like this free summit that we do every year, and I actually spoke – it was like, my first real speaking engagement last summer for Fresh Voices. So yeah, it’s cool, like, full circle with that. But yeah, now we host monthly webinars, and that yearly summit.
CB: Yeah, that seems like a really – that’s interesting both of those things, both have like, an 11th house theme for you personally as well as a Saturn in Aquarius theme, and has also just been interesting in terms of the shift in the astrological community that’s happened over the course of the past just few years – like, two to three years, really – where there’s been this huge influx it seems like of younger people in their 20s especially who have suddenly like, come into the field. Whereas for a very long time there weren’t like, a lot of younger astrologers in the field. Like, there was this huge influx back in the 1960s when a bunch of the Pluto in Leo generation suddenly hit their 20s and especially through the counterculture movement, like, a bunch of them got into astrology and astrology got really popular around 1968. But there was never a similar boom in astrology or influx of young astrologers, and I remember for a very long time that I was always like, the youngest astrologer at conferences when I was in my late teens and most of my 20s, and even headed up the Association for Young Astrologers. But there weren’t – we were always like, waiting for more people to get into it, but it never quite happened. And then suddenly it’s happened over the course of the past few years, and it seems to be part of those sub-generations maybe.
KT: Yeah. It seemed to have really kind of taken off when Jupiter entered Scorpio, which I think —
CB: Right.
KT: — activated our whole generation, sorry, and that was really when this whole “witchy” movement started to really take off, and yeah, that Jupiter in Scorpio activation was super powerful, and I wasn’t expecting it, honestly. It was really in a lot of ways a dream come true for me and still is – that there are so many people now that are into – like, when I started out back in 2012, 2013, which was Saturn in Scorpio, that was I remember, you know, no one I knew was into astrology.
CB: Right.
KT: It was really hard to find people who I could talk to about this. I remember I met someone on Reddit randomly, and we just WhatsApped for like, two years because she was the only person that I could nerd out about astrology with. And then all of a sudden, with that Jupiter transit, it just became a thing. And yeah, it felt surreal to me. And then, you know, Jupiter in Sag seems like Gen Z – the Pluto in Sag generation too – sort of like, became awakened with that, too. So that was really interesting.
CB: Yeah. Well, and it’s been interesting also because it’s just been in the past two years, and even while like, one of the things that’s interesting is seeing the established – like, on Twitter recently – generations have come in over the past year or two, and one of the things they’re surprised about is that there’s not more diversity and inclusion in the astrological community. And one of the issues was just literally prior to a few years ago, it wasn’t very diverse, and so that’s one of the issues in terms of I don’t wanna say why, because that doesn’t justify why some of those structures aren’t built into the community. But it’s been one of the shifts that’s happened really suddenly, and you can see some of the established organizations sort of struggling to keep up or to be doing things that are actually in keeping with contemporary where everybody’s at at this point.
KT: Yeah, it’s definitely been a huge issue. And you know, if anyone’s on Twitter, you’ve seen these really robust conversations around these topics. Like, I think in particular Gen Z is very impatient with it, and I don’t blame them for their impatience, but I think that there’s a sense of, yeah, I don’t know, kind of just feels like the Pluto in Scorpio generation, we’re not surprised by it, I guess? We’re not surprised by, you know, the old guard and those who have power at this point within the community and how things have been. And I think that there is – I had talked about this on Twitter quite a bit, but like, especially with the Saturn in domicile, Pluto in Scorpio people, there’s an effort to change things from the inside out. Like, sort of, you know, help change these structures that are in terms of like, getting on boards of the major orgs and, you know, with me taking over Fresh Voices and sort of like, changing things from the inside, where I feel like there’s a lot of frustration from younger astrologers, especially Gen Z astrologers who just kind of feel like it’s not working so like, let’s do something else, you know? Instead of perhaps having, I don’t know, a little bit more patience or mindfulness around it. And that’s not to like, bash them at all, but I understand that it’s like, patience for what, you know? Like, we deserve these things, or these things need to change, and I totally agree. I just think that there’s a little bit of a disconnect around like, how to go about those changes. And so the whole community’s sort of reckoning with this right now, and it’s really interesting; there’s been so many really engaging conversations happening around it, especially on Twitter, and I’m excited to see how things continue to shape up. I mean, in my opinion, it needs to kind of be this like, “both and” approach of changing things from within but then also creating new structures and, I don’t know, we see it happening with Saturn in Aquarius this year, I feel like so much change so quickly. You know, we had NORWAC online; we had all the conferences really go virtual. And then kind of reckoning with the issues that come with that, you know, having things happen in a virtual space and making sure people still feel a level of safety or protection within these virtual spaces. So yeah, it seems like Saturn in Aquarius is going to be so much about like, how to work within community and to make the most – or I guess make our communities work for everyone instead of just, you know, a small group of people who it has been working for really well. Because now there are so many more people that are in the community or wanna become part of the community, and it’s like, we have to sort of like, open up the circle and figure out how to incorporate these new people.
CB: Yeah, definitely. It’s interesting for us in the astrological community seeing one of those real generational shifts taking place in front of our eyes, though, because for so long, it was like, the Pluto in Leo generation was the one that was in charge and the one that had set up all of the structures back in the ‘70s and ‘80s. And in some ways, the Pluto in Virgo and Pluto in Libra generation kind of got overlooked, because a large – while there are obviously astrologers in that generation that have done great work and stuff, for the longest time, a lot of the Pluto in Leo astrologers were still sort of the dominant players in the field and were in charge of many of the organizations and kind of calling the shots on many things. But now we’re at this weird point after not skipping two generations, but now it’s weird seeing this new generation or two coming in with Pluto in Scorpio and Pluto in Sagittarius in such an influx, and how things are changing or how they are in some instances changing things very rapidly and starting to set up some of the new power structures in the community.
KT: Yeah, it is happening so quickly. And it’s funny, because yeah, like, Pluto – there are quite a bit of Pluto in Libra astrologers who have had successful careers, and you know, are successful. Like I’m thinking of Chani Nicholas, like, Mecca Woods; there’s a great number, but —
CB: Jessica Lanyadoo.
KT: Yeah, Jessica Lanyadoo. But at the same time, they aren’t really the ones who have power in terms of like, the structures within the community. It’s like, they’ve had their own individual successes. But yeah, they’re not the ones really on the boards. Some of them, like, definitely are on boards, but it seems to be overwhelmingly like, you know, Pluto in Leo who have had the power in terms of like, the way things have been run thus far. And so yeah, it’s this weird like, now all these Pluto in Scorpios are coming in and kind of like, having positions of power within the community, and then there’s the Pluto in Sags who kind of have more of a – they have power in a different way, which is the power of messaging. And yeah, the power of like, you know, spreading information so quickly, which I think the Pluto in Leo, Pluto in Virgo gens like, don’t know how to react to. And I don’t blame them, because I wouldn’t really know how to react to them, either! Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Well, it’s just there’s – it seems like different generations that you – it’s – I’m starting to understand more as I get older – I’m only in like, my mid-30s, so I’m by no means super old yet, but I understand more how it’s like, easier to adapt to new technologies especially, but also sometimes just new social mores and things like that when you’re younger in your teens or 20s and sort of understand what’s going on and adapt to it, whereas sometimes it might be harder when you’re older, especially technologically, to learn something in your free time and how easy it is to get set in certain ways in terms of that, and just seeing that come up in different ways and just understanding that as a part of aging and the difference between people that are older versus people that are younger in terms of ease of adapting to new things or whatever is newly available.
KT: Yeah, for sure. And then there’s also this weird – this other aspect of us younger generations and how us coming into astrology and I think a lot of us really want to become full-time astrologers. Like, that was part of my Saturn return, becoming a full-time astrologer. But I think when we’re talking about like, the economic aspects of it and how our generations are so much worse off than older generations in terms of like, you know, I think a lot of older generations, folks were able to have like, a full-time job often, or at least like, a stable job that kind of can supplement their astrological work, and they’ve grown these clientele over years and years and years, and they’re in a much more stable position, a lot of them, than us younger astrologers who, you know, like, we’re having a hard time with the job situation nowadays. And for me, when I decided to move towards full-time, it was because – well, one, I love astrology, and it’s just something that I just see myself doing forever. But at the same time, it was coupled with the fact that I just could not be in an office anymore. And I just couldn’t work in like, advertising anymore, and I think a lot of our generation, both Pluto in Scorpio and Pluto in Sag, struggle with that. Like, just really being unable to conform to these sort of like, jobs that I think a lot of older generations were just okay with doing. Like, especially Pluto in Virgo. Like, they are – I think of them as like, the cubicle generation, you know? And like, they just work, and they’re really good at their work, but us younger generations have a really hard time with maintaining a job for a really long time. And so yeah, there is just like, this weird thing with pay as well. I don’t know; we’re getting into other conversation, I guess, but —
CB: No, I mean, I think that’s relevant in terms of – because one of the things that was noted on a lot earlier this year and it was Sam Reynolds that first pointed this chart out to me earlier this year, but just that part of Saturn going into Aquarius earlier this year was the Saturn return of the internet, or at least of the World Wide Web was first – the first website was launched, and the World Wide Web was first announced in August of 1991, and Saturn was at two degrees of Aquarius. And you know, that’s definitely one thing that’s hugely different right now, if anybody is trying to become an astrologer, is there’s like, the gig economy and the ability for anybody to set up a website or to start doing consultations with anyone from around the world through Zoom or through Skype, and anybody to be able to use or leverage social media in order to build up a profile. In some ways even though economically things are much more difficult and people are worse off and education is much more expensive if one wanted to go to college first before launching a career as an astrologer, you would potentially end up racking up a ton of debt in order to do that. On the other hand, it’s also easier maybe than at any other time to study astrology, to learn it, to have access to free resources online, and also to maybe put yourself out there and become successful as an astrologer. Not necessarily overnight, even though there’s a few sort of success stories like that, but through hard work and through leveraging technology and things like that.
KT: Yeah. Yeah, there is this weird thing to kind of reconcile within our community that has such a diverse age range at this point. Like, we’re all coming at this topic – astrology – in our professional careers from so many different areas and so many different, like, you know, we grew up with the internet and that stuff is a lot easier for us, whereas like, older folks might not have the same internet literacy, but have a more stable finances and stable clientele. And yeah, it’s interesting; it’s like, how can we help each other, really, is what I’m interested in.
CB: Yeah, definitely. Well, it will be interesting to see how – I mean, we just got a little preview of that for a few months earlier this year, and some of the Saturn in Aquarius people got a first preview of their Saturn return. Some people like you are gonna get their exact hit very early once Saturn goes back in – their final exact hit – early next year when Saturn goes back into Aquarius in December. But I usually see – I feel like in modern astrology previously they used to confine the Saturn return to just when it was within a few degrees of exact, but I tend to see the Saturn return as occurring for the entirety of Saturn returning back to its natal sign. Is that – which way do you go on that?
KT: Yeah, I definitely follow that. I mean, I follow that because I follow you and your —
CB: Okay!
KT: — podcast, so that’s kind of how —
CB: Right.
KT: — I learned, but I’ve definitely seen it play out that way, for sure. And yeah. There did seem to be some sort of like, pause on the Saturn in Capricorn folks in their Saturn return stories while Saturn was in Aquarius, which is interesting. So yeah. I definitely follow that as well. I see my Saturn return lasting until, you know, beginning of 2023.
CB: Yeah, is that – so Saturn is gonna be – that’s when it finally leaves Aquarius and goes into Pisces —
KT: Yeah, I think it’s March —
CB: — for the last time?
KT: March 2023. And it’s interesting; I was just on the phone with my mom; she has Saturn in Aquarius as well. But she has it at like, 29 degrees Aquarius, where mine’s at one degree. So it’ll be cool to see how that plays out. Mine’s kind of happening so early on, and hers doesn’t become exact for another two years or so. But she’s talking about starting a new business; she’s been out of work for like, five years. So she’s like, so excited and pumped up about this like, new business venture that she’s trying to go on, and I was like, oh, I was wondering what the Saturn return’s gonna be about for you! So yeah, it’s really interesting; we’re both kind of like, becoming self-employed at this time, too, so yeah.
CB: Yeah. I love that. So I usually like, picture it in my mind – I don’t have a graph, but just as the Saturn return, if it’s really early in the sign, sort of peaking in intensity very early on in this range of this year and early next year, but then there still being this like, downward slope until it leaves the sign of maybe being less intense, but still a continuation of many of the themes that were initiated at the very beginning being wrapped up and being brought to completion over the next couple of years before it leaves the sign.
KT: Exactly, yeah. And that’s exactly how I explain it to my clients, too. Like, the most intense parts of it where like, probably the most action’s gonna happen will be the exact hits, but then you’re still – it’s still playing out over the following years or even when it’s not exact. It’s just not like, the major plot points necessarily.
CB: Right.
All right, so that is Saturn in Aquarius, which are – I forgot to mention at the beginning – people born between roughly 1991 and 1993. And that leaves us with one last Saturn sub-generation before we wrap up, which is Saturn in Pisces, which is —
KT: Yes.
CB: — 1993 to 1996ish.
KT: Yeah. My second favorite! I think I’m just like, partial to Jupiter-ruled Saturns, maybe.
CB: Right.
KT: Since I’m such a Jupiterian. But yeah, my little sister is in this sub-generation too, and I kind of feel like this is the sub-generation that made me really interested in learning about Saturn generations, because I just have an affinity towards them. Maybe because I’m a Pisces rising. But what I love about this sub-generation is, you know, I talk about Saturn signs as being what you’re responsible for as a group, and with Saturn in Pisces, there’s this responsibility to like, heal the world. Which is like, you know, a little dramatic, but I really feel that with this group. They take this like, compassion to another level where they really take on this intense need, this responsibility, to sort of like, bring more love and compassion and empathy to the world as a form of healing. And another thing I love about this sub-gen is that, you know, Saturn will trine Pluto and a chunk of them have Jupiter in Scorpio as well, and the North Node in Scorpio too, so they have this like, Jupiter-North Node-Pluto thing, which is like, a really interesting contrast to the early Saturn in Scorpio generation with like, Saturn, Pluto, and the South Node. You get like, the malefic with the South Node versus the benefic with the North Node. And yeah, I think that’s just something that always stood out to me, that there’s sort of this like, almost maybe not mirroring, but this continuation of a pattern but it just kind of manifests in a different way where it feels a little bit more like forward-thinking and active in a way. I kind of think of, you know, the South Node with Saturn-Pluto in Scorpio as kind of like, often looking back and sort of healing these maybe past life wounds and taking that really seriously. And then this Saturn in Pisces sub-generation is like, almost making magic. Like, it feels very much less so kind of resolving things from the past and more so like, conjuring to bring about a better future. And yeah, they’re just like, the sweetest! I don’t know; I just really love this sub-generation. They care so deeply,and I think that really – they struggle with that a lot in that they really do feel like it’s their responsibility to heal the world. And I mean that like, on an individual level, and that is such an enormous weight to carry. And yeah, especially, you know, with how the world is now, and I just feel like the young folks – especially those in their early, mid-20s – are feeling so lost. And again, that responsibility to like, do something, but not really having a lot of means to – and also, it’s like, you’re in your early 20s. No one’s expecting you to save the world! But yeah, I think a lot of them feel that, and that they need to do something to like, heal all this pain that I think a lot of them feel really heavily.
CB: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I’m looking at the charts here, and it’s kind of crazy how close the Uranus-Neptune conjunction still was at that point.
KT: Yes. Yeah.
CB: Because that went exact a few times in like, 1992, 1993. And so they’ve got a lot of – we skipped over that a little bit, and I think we’re actually planning on talking about that in a podcast episode on your podcast next month about the Saturn-Neptune conjunction and some of the stuff going on in the early to mid-’90s regarding the revival of traditional and older forms of astrology and how the Saturn return of that has really impacted the astrological community especially over the past few years.
KT: Yeah. For sure. I’m looking forward to that. But yeah, that Uranus-Neptune conjunction was even tighter, for sure, in the early ‘90s and into the mid ‘90s. Or I guess – yeah, like, early to mid, I guess, 1994.
CB: Yeah.
KT: Yeah. So that’s another piece of the idealism and sort of the forward thinking element of this sub-generation. Yeah. And then there were these like, you have the Jupiter signs too, so there was the Jupiter in Scorpio. I see so many like, witchy – like, so many witches in this sub-generation with the Jupiter in Scorpio. Like, they just – I don’t know, there’s something very intuitive. And maybe that’s just because I’m in this community and I see a lot of it, but yeah, even, you know, I grew up – my sister and I went to like, a small private school growing up, and so I was there from first grade; she was there from kindergarten all the way through 12th grade. So I watched her and her friends grow up from the time they were like, five, until they were, you know, now basically. And yeah, even the non-witchy folks, like, there’s just something so compassionate and caring, and yeah, like, loving about this sub-generation that – and they’re just so sensitive! They think they really feel the grief and the pain of the world, and they really wanna do something about it. But yeah, then there’s the part with Jupiter in Sag, too, which is I think that they can take that grief and that pain, and the way that they can talk about it, and again, the messaging piece with Jupiter in Sag or just Sagittarius energy in general – that seems to have been something that I’ve noticed a lot about the like, I guess you could say the mini-generation within that sub-generation with Jupiter in Sag. You know, that strong Jupiter, that Jupiter in domicile ruling Saturn in Pisces, yeah, which is like, another – I’m thinking back to like, Saturn in Sag with Jupiter in Pisces, and again, there’s all this Jupiter energy. And yeah, with that mini generation, they just seem to be able to really put words to sort of how, you know, maybe solutions or just kind of thinking big about the issues that we face right now. I’ve noticed that a lot about them.
CB: I’m looking through my files and I’m having trouble – I don’t actually have a lot of Saturn in Pisces people from that sub-generation from the mid ‘90s, I guess just because they’re so young, and maybe I’m not following like, celebrity stuff from people that young. The only one I have from that exact generation – for the timed chart at least – is Justin Bieber. But one of the older ones that was a Saturn in Pisces that I did connect with some of what you were saying about like, the sensitivity was Kurt Cobain. Who was not just, you know, from the previous Saturn generation was a Saturn Pisces, but also a Pisces stellium, and just some of those themes you were talking about of like, sensitivity and being hypersensitive being something that showed up definitely for him.
KT: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I get a lot of clients in this sub-generation. A lot of our sessions just kind of revolve around being like, you know, I know that you feel responsible for this, but it’s like, you know, what are the tangible things you can do? And sort of like, just figuring out ways to sort of relieve that pressure to like, heal the whole world. That’s just such a common theme I see with them. Yeah. I forgot what I was about to say, but yeah.
CB: Yeah. So we start getting into the overlap at this point, though, with the Pluto in Sag generation, right?
KT: Yeah. Yeah, so 1995, there was a couple weird overlaps. Because I think that’s also when Saturn entered Aries, I believe? I believe. Yeah. Right?
CB: Let’s see. I’m just moving it forward. So —
KT: I know that Pluto kind of dipped into Sag for a little bit.
CB: Yeah, it looks like Pluto went into Sag by like, October, November of 1995.
KT: Okay. Okay, cool.
CB: And then —
KT: So Saturn didn’t enter Aries yet, but yeah. So there was that – yeah, I’m thinking about a weird Jupiter thing that happened that year, I think. But yeah, so you get – I think there was like, maybe two to four months – I forget off the top of my head – that Pluto was in Sagittarius during 1995. And yeah, I have a cousin who I think of off the top of my head that has that. She was born in like, March of ‘95, and has the Pluto in Sag, and then it dipped back into Scorpio, and then it went back into Sag. So yeah, maybe that was it. It entered Sag, and then came back into Scorpio for a little bit, and then reentered Sagittarius. So yeah, that’s – 1995 is the overlap, and I guess we can call those the Zennials – the Zoomer Millennials.
CB: The Zennials? Oh yeah, so what is the – so there’s the millennials basically at this point and then what is the official generation after millennials?
KT: Gen Z.
CB: Gen Z? Okay.
KT: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. That’s so funny, because I remember really distinctly around 1995 getting access to America Online and the internet becoming a big thing like, really quickly right then in the middle of the ‘90s. And it’s so interesting seeing that Pluto shift coinciding with that really perfectly and moving out of Scorpio and moving into Sagittarius, so that kind of lines up with just what was happening in the world both technologically and sociologically and just the idea that millennials are the generation that experienced something before that, even if just slightly. And then after that point, it’s sort of hard to escape, and it is part of like, a permanent part of society in some ways.
KT: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I was a baby. I turned four at the end of ‘95, but I do remember like, you know, going – my parents used to like, tell me to turn the internet on for them. So I knew how – like, by the time I was three or four, I knew how to climb up into the computer chair and click on the Internet Explorer symbol and start it up. Because back then, as you know, it would take like, an hour!
CB: Right!
KT: Sometimes to get online!
CB: The dial-up, yeah.
KT: Yeah. But yeah, that was very stark change, I remember too. I remember being like, three or four, and my mom told me that we had to start using area codes when we called people. Before that, we didn’t have to use area codes! And so I would call my best friend all the time, and she’s like, “You have to dial 610 first before you type in Lauren’s number!” And that’s like, a weird early memory I have, too, and yeah. We are the last – and I think about like, what it’s gonna be like when we’re in our 80s. Like, when we’re having our Uranus returns, and we’re the last ones, you know? We’re the last generation alive that remembers what it was like before the internet. I think about that a lot.
CB: Yeah. I always see these arguments online about – I feel like there’s an arrogance of some of the younger – maybe it’s the millennial generation where they think, like, they see older people that struggled with that technological shift, and some of them sort of got left behind, or some just like, barely make it by sort of understanding how to access the internet or something at a very basic level. And I sometimes see some of my contemporaries in their 30s saying that their generation will be different, and they’ll continue being early adopters of technology and it won’t be as hard of a transition when they’re like, in their 80s or something like that. But I think there’s a short-sightedness there and that you can’t actually anticipate what the next major technological changes will be and like, what the new interfaces will be for technology. And it may be one of those things – or in all likeliness, it’ll be one of those things that takes being immersed and takes having the free time to practice and to engage yourself in that new technology so that there will still, at some point, be a divide there where large parts of a generation maybe are left off or don’t adopt as thoroughly whatever the new technology is. And then you do have some sort of divide.
KT: Definitely. Yeah. I mean, I am not one of those people. I kind of see myself as being an old person who’s just like, “I hate robots! Get these robots away from me!” Like I —
CB: Okay!
KT: I fully expect to sort of be left behind in a lot of ways. Mainly like, I can’t even get on TikTok, you know? And I’m —
CB: Okay.
KT: — only 28, turning 29 —
CB: Yeah.
KT: So yeah. I’m right on the same page as you, like, don’t become arrogant with that, because we don’t know what’s gonna happen in the future, you know? Things that we’re gonna have to learn. Like, you know, it’s probably gonna be really easy for our kids to learn how to fly a hovercraft, but for us maybe not so much!
CB: Yeah. Well, and especially with we’re coming up in this decade another major generational shift, which is gonna be Pluto moving into Aquarius. And so the whole era of Pluto in Capricorn, which started in the late 2000s, will come to an end. And whatever major technological shift that brings on, whether artificial intelligence is developed, which there’s a lot of speculations about when or if that will happen, what kind of interfaces they’re finally starting to experiment with like, neural interfaces to directly hook computers into your brain and things like that. So —
KT: Yeah. Scary!
CB: — yeah, we’re coming up pretty soon on some major new generational shifts.
KT: Yeah. I’m not looking forward to it! I think it’s maybe like, Saturn in Aquarius; I don’t know. There’s just some fears around the future I have. Yeah. But I mean, I can’t stop the future, I guess. But I think about that a lot, about how, you know, I’ll likely have kids who have Saturn in Aquarius, and like, you know, thinking about my dad who has Pluto in Leo turning 80 and how he, like, I witnessed him on his first conference call – like, his first Zoom call – during quarantine, because he has so many business meetings. He still works a lot. And yeah. It’s like, just thinking about the future and what that’s gonna look like for us; it’s gonna be our first hologram party or whatever and figuring out —
CB: Right.
KT: — how to do that!
CB: Yeah. Three-D printed everything.
KT: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. There’s a lot of stuff coming up soon. And yeah, Saturn in Aquarius for the next couple of years. And what are the dates for Saturn in Pisces again – do you know – for the return? Oh, actually —
KT: Saturn enters in March of 2023, I believe.
CB: Okay.
KT: And I don’t think it retrogrades back into Aquarius. I’m pretty sure it’s just straight in Pisces until maybe, I don’t know, 2026 or something or late 2025, something like that.
CB: I forgot; I just found this old article I wrote on Saturn return stories that lists the Saturn return —
KT: Oh nice.
CB: — start and end dates. So just so people can search Saturn return start and end dates, and it looks like Saturn will be in Pisces from March 7th, 2023, like you said, to February of 2026. So the Saturn in Aquarius people, your Saturn returns will finally end in 2023. And the Pisces people will have a solid three years of Saturn return there.
KT: Yeah. Wow.
CB: Yeah. And then after that, I need to update this article for our Saturn in Aries friends and everybody —
KT: Yes.
CB: — that comes after that.
KT: Yes. Our —
CB: So —
KT: — Saturn in Aries friends!
CB: Yeah. So that brings us, though, to the end of this in terms of talking about the millennials as a generation and as sub-generations with those born with Pluto in Scorpio and the different Saturn signs within that. Yeah. So we’ll have to do this again maybe to talk about the other generation, the Pluto in Sag generation, at some point in the —
KT: Yeah.
CB: — future.
KT: Yeah. In the future once I can meet some more of them! Because some of them —
CB: Right.
KT: — you know, they were born in 2007, 2008. So they’re not – they’re still babies, a lot of them! So yeah.
CB: Yeah, they’re only like, 12 years old, so they haven’t even encountered their Saturn opposition yet.
KT: Yeah. Exactly. But the ones that I do know – the older folks – I mean, there’s quite a bit in the astrology community, so I’m excited to see their contributions or their further contributions, because they’ve done enough. Plenty of them have done a lot already, so yeah, it’s exciting.
CB: Yeah, definitely. All right. Great. Well, this is awesome. I’m trying to think of anything else. I did since we’re getting close to the end of Saturn in Capricorn, I did wanna put a call out for people to send in your experiences and your birth charts for those that have Saturn in Capricorn that are wrapping up their Saturn returns, because I’d like to do a retrospective and highlighting some of those experiences from the past few years. So if anybody wants to send in their chart, just send me an email; my email is listed on The Astrology Podcast website. And also some people, if they wanted to do like, a three-to-five minute selfie video recording on a phone doing a quick recap of your Saturn return and how it’s tied in with your chart, you can email that to me as well, and then I might end up featuring some of them in an episode I hope to do in the not-too-distant future.
What are your plans, or what do you have coming up in terms of your work with astrology or other events or other projects that you have going on?
KT: So event-wise, I am speaking at the Modern Witches Confluence at the end of this month. So it’s October – I think it starts, yeah, October 30th. It might start on the 29th, but I think the opening ceremony’s on the 30th. And then it goes ‘til November 1st. I’ll be giving the opening keynote on October 30th, and I’m presenting a talk called “Timing is Everything: Astrology as a Tool for Understanding the Present Moment.” So I’m excited about that!
And then I’ve just been working on the podcast. Yeah, there’s the – yeah, it starts the 29th, right.
CB: So it’s WitchesConfluence.org?
KT: Yes, WitchesConfluence.org. And they host this every year. It’s usually in person in San Francisco. I’ve never been, but I was invited to speak this year, which is really exciting.
CB: Nice.
KT: So yeah. That and then I have my podcast that I’m continuously working on – The Strology Show – and that’s been just a blast. We just finished up all of our planet episodes, and you know, if you are a Saturn in Aries, and you would love to hear some more about Saturn in Aries, we talk about that in our Saturn episode. I think that’s episode nine, yeah, I believe.
CB: And what do they search for? Oh yeah, what’s the origin of your name, by the way?
KT: The Strology?
CB: Your name for – yeah.
KT: I feel like it’s just a very Mercury in Sag thing. Like, I like to abbreviate everything.
CB: Okay.
KT: Maybe it’s a millennial thing, too! Like, going to an all girls’ school during, you know, the early 2000s. But I abbreviate everything, and I really love “strology.” “Strology” was like, the first thing, and I started a Slack channel when I was working in advertising called “Strology,” and got people in offices all around the world who were like, following my updates and stuff. So I decided to keep running with “strology,” and you know, strology.com was taken, so it became The Strology, and yeah!
CB: I love it. So people should – they can find you on like, all the major podcast networks like Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google, YouTube, or Stitcher by just searching for “the S T R O L O G Y show.”
KT: Yep. The Strology Show. Yeah. And then what else? Oh, Fresh Voices – we have some great webinars coming up in November. Becca Tarnas is coming in to talk about astrological research methods, which I’m really excited about. And then Mychal Bryan is also coming in to speak about horary astrology, so that’s gonna be great. And we have a couple other ones. Like, we have some really good ones scheduled over the next couple of months.
And then besides that, I’m just, you know, doing readings. Doing readings and then working on a course. I’m launching a course in the spring, so that’s kind of taking up a big chunk of my time and energy lately. But that’s something I’m excited about.
CB: Awesome, that sounds great. And I saw the Northwest Astrology Conference was just announced, and you’ll be speaking —
KT: Yes!
CB: — at that as well, right?
KT: Yeah. We’re both speaking! I’m really, really excited for that. I’m actually gonna be talking about Pluto in Scorpio as a generation for that conference, too, kind of expanding on the talk I did last for for Fresh Voices. So yeah. Talking about that more and more!
CB: Excellent! Well, yeah, that should be great, and probably going into much more detail. If people liked this discussion, then I’m sure they’ll like that talk.
KT: Yeah.
CB: Cool. Awesome. Well, thanks a lot for joining me today. Like I said, this was the first time I’ve somehow ever talked about generations in astrology. I’ve been meaning to, so it was nice, and although weirdly – also weirdly like, cathartic to talk about some of that, both what’s going on in terms of different generations and in terms of some of the generational shifts that are happening right now. So yeah, thanks for joining me for this today.
KT: Thanks for having me on. This was like, unbelievable for me! I’ve been following you and your podcast since, you know, since you started, I think! When did you start? In like, 2014, 2015?
CB: I started doing it really slowly in 2012 when —
KT: Yeah.
CB: — the domain just fell in my lap. But then I didn’t start doing it more seriously until like, two or three years later.
KT: Yeah. Well, I’ve been here since the beginning.
CB: Okay!
KT: And it’s been, you know, such a huge part of my journey. So thank you for having me on. It’s really cool. Thank you.
CB: Yeah, it’s been amazing seeing you come into the community and starting to do different things with like, Influx Magazine, which was a really cool magazine that you were doing for a little bit that was on – I think is on hiatus for the moment, but then —
KT: Yeah, hopefully bringing it back next year. We’ll see.
CB: Okay. And then yeah, just especially over the course of the past year, seeing you hit your Saturn return and just so many amazing things that you’ve been doing. It’s been really great to see. So keep it up; I look forward to seeing the rest of your Saturn return, and yeah, let’s do this again some time.
KT: Totally. I’ll speak to you soon on my show! So looking forward —
CB: Yes.
KT: — to it.
CB: Next month in November, we’re gonna talk about the revival of traditional astrology and how that’s been impacting the community and some of the different things that go along with that in terms of the teacher-student relationship and notions of like, lineage and things like that.
KT: Yeah. It’s gonna be a good one; I’m excited.
CB: Cool. All right, well, people can find out more information about that on your website; I’ll link to it in the description below this video or on The Astrology Podcast website. Thanks everybody for listening to this episode of The Astrology Podcast, and we’ll see you again next time.
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