The Astrology Podcast
Transcript of Episode 232, titled:
December 2019 Astrology Forecast: Jupiter in Capricorn
With Chris Brennan and guests Austin Coppock, Leisa Schaim, and Kelly Surtees
Episode originally released on November 30, 2019
Original episode URL:
https://theastrologypodcast.com/2019/11/30/december-2019-astrology-forecast-jupiter-in-capricorn/
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Note: This is a transcript of a spoken word podcast. If possible, we encourage you to listen to the audio or video version, since they include inflections that may not translate well when written out. Our transcripts are created by human transcribers, and the text may contain errors and differences from the spoken audio. If you find any errors then please send them to us by email: theastrologypodcast@gmail.com
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Transcribed by Andrea Johnson
Transcription released May 14th, 2026
Copyright © 2026 TheAstrologyPodcast.com
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CHRIS BRENNAN: Hi, my name is Chris Brennan, and you’re listening to The Astrology Podcast. In this episode, I’m gonna be talking with Austin Coppock and Kelly Surtees, who are here in Denver, in the studio, for the first time, to record the forecast for December of 2019, where we’re gonna be looking at the astrology of the next few weeks. So this is Episode 232 of The Astrology Podcast, and we’re recording it with a live audience of patrons, who are joining us from all around the world through our live webinar format. So, hey, guys. Thanks for joining me for this first time, I think, in person.
KELLY SURTEES: First time in the studio, yeah.
AUSTIN COPPOCK: Yeah, first time for the monthly.
CB: Yeah, we’ve never done a forecast, a monthly forecast. Although, ironically, not ironically, but interestingly, we discovered that we had elected this meeting in person this month very close to the Venus-Jupiter conjunction in Sagittarius. And I don’t know, was it you, Austin? Or maybe you? Somebody—
KS: One of us.
CB: —noticed or remembered that actually the first episode, the first forecast that we all got together and did for the very first time, which was kind of on a lark, was also during a Venus-Jupiter conjunction in Leo several years ago.
AC: Yeah. So this is the trinal conjunction.
CB: Right. Cuz it was also like late Leo.
AC: Mm-hmm.
KS: Yeah. So the first time the three of us ever recorded, yeah, the monthly podcast was Venus-Jupiter together. And you were staying here in Denver.
AC: Yeah. This is the first time I’ve been back to Denver since then.
CB: Okay.
KS: So Austin only comes to Denver on Venus-Jupiter conjunctions in fire signs.
AC: Right.
KS: No, we’re gonna change that.
AC: And I think that Venus-Jupiter conjunction is a particularly good marker because we didn’t plan to do a three-person podcast. You were gonna do a thing with Kelly, and I was in town. And so, you asked if I would jump in.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And so, in some ways, the accidental markers are more significant than if we had just chosen that.
KS: Yes.
CB: And that was in, what? Like 2014? 2015?
KS: 2015, I think.
AC: Yeah, ‘15, it feels like.
KS: We should be able to check.
AC: I mean, 2015 feels like a million years ago.
KS: It really does.
CB: So it was right after. Cuz you and I got together, Kelly, at NORWAC and had a lot of fun hanging out. And then we immediately came back and started recording the podcast together and did a forecast episode together and that was gonna be the plan. But then the following month, Austin, you were in town for a tarot conference, right around that Venus-Jupiter conjunction.
KS: July 2015.
CB: Kelly and I were getting ready to record. We just, on a lark, decided to ask you if you wanted to join us, cuz you happened to be there.
AC: Yep.
KS: And it was a great thing.
AC: I think it worked out.
KS: Yeah. I think it’s been good.
CB: Yes.
KS: Well, especially now, like a trine arrangement. We’re coming together in like a next-level way in terms of doing some stuff in person, which we haven’t had the chance to do in the studio before.
CB: Yeah.
KS: It’s like growth and expansion.
AC: In many ways, a literal re-visitation. Like, I’m back for the first time.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
CB: And I like it because this is in my 11th house in Sagittarius. And so, I have my two friends fly out to the studio and us hanging out this week. So we’ve recorded a couple of podcast episodes already, had a lot of fun. We have a couple more podcasts. We’re gonna do the year ahead forecast tomorrow. But today, we need to do the forecast for December. So last month, we tried a new format, and we jumped right into the forecast and people really seemed to like that. So why don’t we do that again here, and do the forecast for like the next hour or so, looking at the astrology of December? And then we’ll chat and do some other miscellaneous discussion topics in the second half, once we get that out of the way.
AC: Okie-doke.
KS: Perfect.
CB: All right. Let’s jump into it. So I’m gonna throw up, first, the planetary movements, the planetary alignments for December, from our yearly calendar. Which I meant to say I’m about to send to the printer the final version of, to get a calendar printed for 2020. So I will have those posters again this year, and I should be announcing that through the podcast really soon here. So you can find a link or more information about that on the podcast website. All right. So these are the major alignments for December. We’ve got, right away at the very start of the month, on the 2nd of December, Jupiter is leaving its home sign Sagittarius, and it’s moving into Capricorn for most of the next year. Then, on the 9th, we’ve got Mercury moving into Sagittarius, a Full Moon in Gemini on the 12th of December. Jupiter exactly trines Uranus on the 15th. Venus moves into Aquarius on the 20th. Saturn moves into Capricorn on the 23rd, as it does just about every year. And then, finally, there is not just a New Moon, but it’s actually a solar eclipse that’s taking place in Capricorn on the 26th of the month, followed immediately after by Mercury ingressing into Capricorn on the 28th. More or less, that’s the overview. Are there any major overview points that I’m leaving out here?
KS: No.
CB: No?
AC: No. That’s fine.
CB: Okay. Cool. Well, let’s then get into it. One of the things we might mention—cuz we’re recording this pretty much as Mercury has just stationed direct, and we just finished the Mercury retrograde in Scorpio. Do you guys have any funny anecdotes or stories or insightful, useful things regarding that?
AC: So the kitchen appliances that we bought during the previous Mercury retrograde, which was in Cancer, gave us a lot of trouble during this subsequent Mercury retrograde in Scorpio. And yes, they were almost all things that involved the usage of water.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Okay.
AC: Dishwasher, particularly.
CB: Yeah, that’s a pretty good one.
KS: I had the classic. So I left Tuesday morning, Belgian time, to fly out here. And, you know, Mars was at the end of Libra and Mercury was in station at that point. So I had the classic transport delays where the train was delayed, and then I had to get off a stop earlier and wait. This 90-minute trip took two-and-a-half-hours. So then I was stressing about getting my bag checked and getting to the airport in time. In the end, everything worked out, but there was a level of mental stress and aggravation because there were those classic transportation delays.
AC: Yeah, I had those, cuz I also flew.
KS: You flew on Tuesday as well.
AC: Still the direct station, right?
KS: Yeah.
AC: And the stationing planet isn’t moving.
KS: No.
AC: And even though, you know, we can huzzah to the end of the Mercury retrograde—it’s no longer moving backward—but you will find things have a hard time getting moving, just cuz the planet’s gonna take a little bit to pick up speed. But again, both are fine for me.
KS: Yeah.
AC: But both of my flights were delayed 20 minutes, half-an-hour.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah.
CB: For me, the Mercury retrograde was through my 10th house. And I ended up working with a friend, Cat Rose Neligan, who redesigned my consulting website for the first time in like five or six years and also completely redesigned The Astrology Podcast website for the first time since it was launched in 2012. And that just went live a few days ago.
KS: Super exciting.
CB: Yeah.
AC: So that reminds me, I did a professional thing. So I mentioned last time that I had accidentally scheduled the rewriting of the second edition of 36 Faces during Mercury retrograde. And one of things I discovered—I sat down with the artist and I did timelines—was like there’s no way this is coming out by Christmas.
KS: Right.
AC: So it’ll be out first quarter, but I had to revise the timeline.
KS: The timeline for it. That’s right. Cuz you were talking about that. And I think I had shared with our listeners, like last month, maybe around the Mercury retrograde being in my 9th house and the issue around being asked to come back to Canada for my citizenship stuff. So I’ve heard back from them. And they’ve actually been really flexible, and they’re like, “We’re gonna work around you. Just tell us when you can come next.” So I think that’s gonna happen in January now instead of October.
CB: Nice.
KS: Actually, that’s kind of cool, cuz your thing’s going to first quarter next year as well.
AC: Yeah. You know, it’s just a delay, and it’s not a shocking turn of affairs. You know, Mercury often delays things.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. All right. So let me throw up the chart for right now. So this is the chart for now, and our election, half-election, not really an election, for trying to record this episode. But let me throw up the transits for the start of December, so we can start to get grounded on what the beginning of the month looks like.
KS: Yeah.
CB: All right. So here’s December 1, around midday. And here we can see Jupiter at the very tail-end of Sagittarius. So we’re saying goodbye to that transit. And that’s one of our major themes for this month, but also, for the next year pretty much, right?
AC: Oh, yeah.
KS: Yeah. I think we’ve said that in the past that December is sort of the start of the 2020 astrological influences. It’s still technically a month in 2019, but Jupiter changing signs is setting us up for a dynamic we’ll have until the end of 2020.
CB: Okay. So that’s definitely one of the major things. And let me just animate that to see exactly when that goes in. Yeah, pretty much by December 2.
KS: December 2, yeah. So really, at the top of the month, that is one of the first big things that happen this month. It is probably the first big thing.
CB: Yeah.
AC: I would say that’s the thing with the longest-reaching consequences.
CB: Yeah. And Jupiter is joining Venus, which is already there at 8° of Capricorn, there on the 2nd, and Saturn and Pluto, of course, later in the sign. So yeah, should we talk a little bit, first, about—should we talk about Jupiter in Capricorn?
AC: I think we should.
KS: We need to.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah.
CB: So there’s a little bit of, I don’t know if ‘despair’ is the right word or anxiousness. I feel like a lot of people have been enjoying using Jupiter in Sagittarius for different things, like elections or just as a transit in general, Jupiter being in its home sign. And now, it’s going into Capricorn, which at least, traditionally, is sometimes associated with not being a great place for Jupiter. Would you guys say that’s an accurate statement?
AC: It is not nearly as good a place as Sagittarius.
CB: Sure.
KS: Yes. Yeah, technically, Jupiter is in fall in Capricorn. But I don’t know that that is just a blanket, bad kind of thing to take up there. You know, we’ve been looking at charts of people with Jupiter in Capricorn and things like that, and some of them have really long-lasting success in their fields. So there are things that Jupiter in Capricorn can still do, even though it is, technically, weak by sign.
CB: Right.
AC: Well, and so, you should talk about, do you read fall as weakness? Or do you read it as results that do not accomplish the planet’s goals, right? You can have a planet that isn’t doing what you want it to do, that’s not doing normal Jupiter stuff. That’s not necessarily weak. Like, for example, Venus in Virgo is often very difficult on the natives. Venus is in fall in Virgo, but will accomplish a fair amount of, at least, external Venus things, right? So falls are literally a different category than exile or detriment. I don’t read it as just weak.
KS: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of nuances to the quality of Jupiter in Capricorn. It’s going to be contained in a Jupiterian way, but it is sort of supporting, in some ways, the qualities of Capricorn. That idea of sustained effort, or effort over time, or effort that leads to long-lasting results, and that’s the combination of the Jupiter-Saturn vibe there.
CB: That’s one of the things I’m excited about. We’ve already been dealing with Saturn in Capricorn for what feels like a while and the heaviness of that long-term, two-or-three-year transit. And I feel like Jupiter—and to a lesser extent—Venus joining Saturn this month, although that’s certainly a shift in tone from Jupiter in Sagittarius, at least might be balancing Saturn out a little bit more than it was previously or otherwise.
AC: Yeah, cuz it’s not even remotely just Jupiter in Capricorn.
CB: Right.
AC: You know, it’s Jupiter joining a pretty packed house in Capricorn. And Venus is there for a lot of December, but that goes away.
KS: It’s shorter term. It’s relevant to December.
AC: Yeah. For a good chunk of the coming year, we’ll have Jupiter in Capricorn, with the South Node, for the first half, with Pluto for the whole thing, and then with Saturn on and off. And so, the trio of the dragon’s tail and Saturn and Pluto in Capricorn has been consistently the biggest problem-causer in charts for the last year or so. When Jupiter was in Sag, it was useful that it was in a totally different space. So if you were doing elections, you could hook things to Jupiter and not Saturn at all.
KS: And not have to worry about it.
AC: And now, we have the good and the bad much more thoroughly mixed, which is useful in some ways, right? It’s useful that Jupiter’s trying to help what’s going on in Capricorn, but that’s gonna take up a lot of Jupiter’s energy. In terms of if we’re talking about improving things, or becoming more favorable, there are kind of two ways to do that. One is negating negatives, and one is adding positives.
KS: Yes.
AC: Jupiter in Capricorn is going to be very concerned with negating negatives.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Whereas Jupiter in Sag was like, “Let’s add this. What if we did this? Let’s all fly out to Denver.”
KS: Yeah.
AC: That’s adding a positive.
KS: That’s totally. Cuz I think this is really key. You’ve gotta think about it from that perspective. So Jupiter may not love being in Capricorn, but Saturn is certainly gonna enjoy having a little bit of Jupiter there with him.
AC: Yeah, it’s a very, very powerful assistant to boss around.
KS: Right. Exactly. Exactly. So I think, to what you were sort of getting to before, Chris, we’ve had Saturn in Capricorn with Pluto for two years. And we’ve had the South Node there since—I think it was November of—
AC: Last year.
KS: —last year, 2018. There is gonna be a qualitative difference to that stuff, once Jupiter steps in.
CB: Yeah. I mean, it’s gonna be a good year for Saturn elections during certain parts of the year. Especially when we can get a day chart, creating classically Saturnian-type things. So what would, symbolically, be some good Saturn in Capricorn-type things, when they’re positively-reinforced? Like things that are long-lasting and have like strong foundations. Or things that start off slowly or gradually, but eventually become very long-lasting and become sort of fixed or permanent.
AC: Yeah, exactly. Or things with a malefic intent, but we don’t need to elect for that.
CB: Sure.
KS: Yeah. You know, I think of Saturn in Caparison with building a stonewall or something that is made of a very durable type of material, that is gonna take some crafting and some effort to establish the foundation or the base. But I think that’s part of if we’re trying to get good Saturn elections out of this.
CB: Right.
KS: Jupiter is gonna help with longevity and potential for satisfaction over time.
CB: Yeah, definitely.
AC: Jupiter will serve Saturn in Capricorn. It basically will, as you said, make the Saturn elections better.
KS: Yeah.
AC: But we wouldn’t turn the chart so that Capricorn was rising and then focus our efforts on Jupiter or focus our expectations on Jupiter.
CB: Right.
KS: Yeah.
AC: We would look at how Jupiter can help with Saturnian things. So one thing to note about this Jupiter in Capricorn in December, two things—one, Jupiter will be in, basically, the portions of Carnation where it does best. First decan is Jupiter-ruled, and the bound of Jupiter overlaps with that first decan.
CB: Okay.
AC: So that’s going to be a more functional Jupiter in Capricorn where you can get Jupiter stuff in a way that isn’t gonna be true later.
KS: Yeah.
AC: You know, again, sure, it’s Jupiter in Capricorn, but Jupiter is never alone in Capricorn, and never alone this year.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Right.
AC: And so, in terms of things that are relevant this month, we do have the interesting situation where we have both benefics, Venus and Jupiter, hanging out with Saturn, Pluto, dragon tail. And Jupiter gets very close to conjunction with the South Node for a lot of the month, which is an interesting combination in of itself. That’s the first, slower-moving thing that Jupiter conjoins in Capricorn.
KS: Yes. Jupiter will also be with the Sun this month. So there is that, I guess, invisible quality to Jupiter.
CB: Right. One of the things I liked, that you were saying, Kelly, was Jupiter in Capricorn—and you were starting to say something that I was interpreting in my own mindset as like slow-and-incremental change as like a good keyword or phrase for, I think, Jupiter in Capricorn.
KS: Yeah, it’s like a slow, steady build.
CB: Right.
AC: Well, it’s improvement through building. Systematizing—building systems for something you’re already doing. In many cases, it will not be the utopian vision. It will be laying the bricks for the houses in the little village that you wanna create.
KS: Yeah.
AC: You know, we were talking, this came up the other day. You know, it’s like you’re doing all this stuff and maybe it’s gone well this year. And what would be great is not doing more stuff, but systematizing the things that you’re already doing, so it’s more efficient. There’s a very strong material, looking at the bones of things, making sure the foundations aren’t cracked with Jupiter in Capricorn. And this is part of the contradiction between the quality of Capricorn and the planetary nature of Jupiter. Jupiter naturally rises. You know, it’s hot, warm, moist air.
KS: Goes up.
AC: It naturally wants to go up. It naturally wants to get the 30,000-foot view. And that can be frustrating for Jupiterian-types because it’s not the vision, it’s the labor.
KS: And I think ‘labor’ is a really good word for Jupiter in Capricorn because it is that sense of the effort and the work. I’m hoping that many people have had a chance to tap into the vision this year, 2019, because I think that’s part of the symbolic shift. We’re moving out of Jupiter in Sag. So you now have a picture or an image in your mind of what you’d like to build or create, and Jupiter in Capricorn is picking up the tools to actually then do that symbolically, whether that’s planning or restructuring or what have you.
CB: Right. What were some of the—we had started talking about natives with Jupiter in Capricorn. Do you guys remember some of the examples we were coming up with?
AC: Yeah, I have two favorites. One, is Dwayne ‘The Rock’ Johnson—
KS: Oh, yeah.
CB: Yeah, that’s a good one.
AC: —who has Jupiter in Capricorn conjunct the Moon in the 4th house, in its terms and face. And that Moon conjunct the Jupiter rules his 10th house. And he’s literally named a large, earthen object. You know, he is reputed for his substantial quality. He’s a very large man. I used him as an example in my year one class the other week. A shoutout to everybody who was there for that. And what’s interesting about that is that he shows the issues with dignity that you would expect, but also, that Jupiter in Capricorn is still Jupiter, and Jupiter-Moon conjunction is still a nice thing.
KS: Yeah.
AC: So with it being in his 4th, we look at family, the Moon, which is in the 4th, rules the 10th. And so, he actually went into the family business, which was wrestling, right? And if we’re talking about a lack of dignity, the family business was pretending to fight men in your underwear.
KS: Yes, that’s right.
AC: It doesn’t mean that he wasn’t successful and that that’s not career, but that’s kind of coming from the bottom.
KS: Yes.
AC: So I have another example. Actually, let me do my other example really quickly. So RuPaul is also a Jupiter in Capricorn. You know, if we’re talking about dignity in terms of society, actually all of the traditional metaphors for dignity are about place within a given society and the amount of resources you have at your disposal. RuPaul doing drag in the ‘70s and ‘80s—that was not an accepted thing.
KS: It was not considered prestigious in society at the time.
AC: Right.
KS: Yeah.
AC: But making good with something that is considered de-classé or lower-caste-oriented, like wrestling in your underwear.
KS: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s super interesting. I realized that some of the examples that I really was drawn to speaking about are actually people who also have Saturn in Capricorn as well, which I thought was interesting, given that is part of the 2020. And certainly for December now, we’ve got Jupiter and Saturn in Capricorn.
AC: Mm-hmm.
KS: Cuz there was a period in 1961 that we had Jupiter and Saturn in Capricorn together. So KD Lang, the musician, has Jupiter and Saturn together in Capricorn, in the 5th house.
AC: Oh, okay.
KS: So if you think about it there’s sort of a mournful kind of quality to their music, that is still very evocative, and of course having been very successful. And the other one is a sports one.
AC: Quick question.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Do you know at what age KD Lang became successful? Was it later?
KS: Oh, good question.
AC: Was it delayed by the heavy Saturn?
KS: I don’t know off the top of my head. Give me one second.
AC: Not super important.
KS: Yeah, I don’t know off the top of my head. I do not know off the top of my head. The other example I have is Wayne Gretzky, the great Canadian hockey player, who’s actually considered to be one of the greatest hockey players of all time. He’s known as ‘The Great One’.
AC: Yeah, I was gonna ask what his nickname was.
KS: Yeah, ‘The Great One’. And he’s a 1961 vintage as well, with Jupiter and Saturn together in Capricorn, in the 12th house, actually, with Aquarius rising.
CB: Okay.
KS: And he was famous very young. By the time he was 16, he was already exceptional.
CB: Okay.
KS: So he didn’t get the delay, actually, but he had the long-lasting. Cuz I think that’s key here. One of the things, I think, Jupiter in Capricorn can give is this enduring—when you can get into the doing the work or accessing the potential of it, it can give that long-lasting or long-lived. Like how many Fast & Furious movies has ‘The Rock’ done?
AC: I’ve never seen one. I think it’s a testament to him that I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a movie that he’s done, and I never watch wrestling, but I know who he is and what he looks like. I know what he sounds like.
KS: He’s very tall, yeah.
AC: He’s also wide.
KS: He’s wide.
AC: He’s a substantial human being.
CB: So in my files—
KS: What have you got?
CB: I don’t have like a hugely-extensive file.
KS: I think I saw one on the screen that I had seen, too, yeah.
CB: So I’ve got like George Carlin. These are all Jupiter in Capricorns.
AC: Can we pause on that? Cuz that’s really good. So when Jupiter is in Saturn’s house—Jupiter in its own place will tend to be very religious, very reverent.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And so, Jupiter in Capricorn will tend to be more skeptical, more irreverent, and that was the very root of Carlin’s comedy.
CB: Right. Irreverence.
KS: Yeah, and the dryness.
AC: Yeah, he wasn’t like a Jupiter avatar where he was like warm and moist and welcoming.
KS: No.
CB: So George Carlin. Johnny Carson is another one that I’ve got with Jupiter in Capricorn, with the Moon conjunct that.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Paul Newman.
KS: Yes.
CB: Which is the one that you liked, Kelly?
KS: I mean, Paul Newman, I liked. Did you pull out Katy Perry?
CB: Yeah. She’s my ‘time twin’.
KS: Oh, right.
CB: Near ‘time twin’. Not a complete ‘time twin’. But she was born like a week before me, and in another life, I think, I could have been Katy Perry.
AC: I think you chose wisely this time.
CB: I still wonder.
KS: Like a lot of my examples had their Jupiter in Capricorn in the 3rd house, for people who are writers or are known for communication in some way, and that’s what Katy Perry has as well. And did you have Charles Lindbergh on your list as well?
CB: I do not, but that would be a good one.
KS: Yeah, he’s Jupiter and Saturn, but a previous iteration of that, but both in the 3rd.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Cool.
KS: Jupiter and Saturn in Cap. I mean, a lot of these individuals we’ve talked about really had sustained—
AC: Well, we are also looking at people who are super successful.
KS: True. That’s true.
AC: But there is an endurance when it works right—
KS: When you can get it working.
AC: —when it’s with its ruler, which is Saturn, which is the case this year.
KS: Yes. That is the unique iteration for the most part.
AC: Yeah, we just shouldn’t set that expectation for everybody with Jupiter in Cap.
KS: True. True. That’s true.
CB: So other examples. Let’s see. Paul Newman. Adolph Hitler. Richard Nixon. Gerald Ford. Malcolm X, that’s a pretty good one.
KS: Margaret Thatcher.
CB: Prince Harry.
KS: Yes. He has Capricorn in the 1st.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah, with no Saturn there. He’s just got Jupiter.
CB: Oh, yeah, you’re right. So Capricorn rising. Jupiter is right there in the first whole sign house.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Let’s see. Who else? Robert Kennedy had Jupiter in Capricorn, as well as a few other planets. Linda Goodman, famous astrology book writer.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Most, potentially, highest-published astrology book of all time.
KS: Yeah, very successful.
CB: Rubin ‘Hurricane’ Carter who was a boxer. Dwayne and Katy Perry. Yeah, that is it,
KS: Yeah.
CB: All right. And then, of course, I have Jupiter in Capricorn.
KS: We have our own version of Jupiter in Capricorn right here in the studio.
CB: Yeah. That’s why I was saying I liked what you were saying about slow-and-incremental change. So things like the podcast, for example, and thinking about where it started, or thinking of where we started with the forecast.
KS: Absolutely.
CB: And then just slowly changing one thing and trying to improve one tiny thing each time.
KS: Every few months.
CB: Yeah, so that eventually it doesn’t look like it’s doing much at first. But then eventually, over the course of many years, it can build up and gain momentum and turn into something larger.
AC: Yeah. I would say, generally speaking, if we can split Jupiter’s positive significations into two—which I think we can—one being more spirit. Like enthusiasm, creativity, hope, vision, meaning, all that stuff, and then success. You know, material success. Success within the social and material world. Jupiter in Capricorn is just fine for success in the social and material worlds. It is harder on the spirit.
KS: Yes.
AC: I think you definitely see—
KS: Like a melancholy?
AC: Yeah, the traditional dignity. So if you think about Jupiter’s trying to keep good spirits and is going through this earthy, Saturnian terrain and is under those rules, it’s harder to stay in a good mood. It’s harder to keep a big, optimistic viewpoint.
KS: Yeah.
AC: We could argue that it’s not realistic for Jupiter to do that when it’s in Capricorn—
KS: It’s not.
AC: —if we put ourselves in Jupiter’s place.
KS: Well, cuz there is an anchoring to Jupiter in Capricorn, like what you’re sort of saying there, that underground. There’s a weightiness to it that Jupiter, left to its own devices, is not going to have, like a pure Jupiter.
AC: Yeah. I would say that Jupiter’s natural essential tendency is to look up.
KS: Yeah.
AC: In Capricorn, it has to look down, cuz that’s where the action is.
KS: Yeah.
AC: In a piece that I found recently, that I wrote 12 years ago, about a previous Jupiter in Capricorn, I paralleled it in terms of a spiritual practice with the Solomonic tradition of magic, where instead of looking up to angels, the root myth was how King Solomon bound all these pesky devils to build the temple of the Lord. It was still a holy purpose, but he was dealing with lower, and by definition, not-holy forces in order to accomplish the Jupiterian work of building the temple.
KS: Yeah. So it’s getting back into dealing with the material, tangible world in some way.
AC: Yeah. Or even on a spiritual level, like spirits, but pesky spirits.
KS: Okay.
CB: Sure.
KS: Yeah.
CB: And I think one of the underlying archetypes of Jupiter is just growth and the question of how do you grow in your life, and what is your manner and your inclination towards growth when you have to expand in some area of your life.
KS: Yeah.
CB: And that’s a good question for everybody in terms of thinking about their Jupiter placement and what sign it’s in. What are you guys, again? What’s yours, Kelly?
KS: Leo.
CB: Leo.
AC: Cancer.
CB: Oh, right, Cancer.
KS: We’re all different.
CB: I forgot we were opposing Jupiter signs.
KS: Yeah, I just realized that you guys were. I don’t know why I just realized that. Didn’t put it together, yeah.
CB: Sure.
KS: Well, the wet and the dry.
CB: But that could be part of the broader theme for, certainly, this month. And that’s one of the things that people have trepidation about going into this month, or some of the astrologers do. Growth slows down. Growth is not as rapid, moving from Sagittarius, a masculine fire sign and going into a Saturn-ruled sign, where growth is gonna be a little bit slower, at the very least, and just seeing the pace of things change a little bit over the course of the next month.
AC: Yeah. So I would say growth is half of Jupiter, the other half is coherence. You know, you can expand to encompass more territory, but if what you’ve expanded into isn’t coherent, then you lose all that. And when you look at strongly Jupiterian natives, coherence is a huge thing. And so, I would say in terms of that divide between expanding your scope and then gaining coherence within the area or the realm you occupy, the Jupiter in Capricorn is way more coherence-based and way less big expansion.
CB: Sure.
KS: Totally.
AC: Whereas Sag was, “Go everywhere. Try everything.”
KS: Do all the things.
AC: Do all the things. But now that you’ve been to those places, which ones do you keep, which do you go back to? How do you weave something? How do you find a balance between all of the positions you’ve occupied and places you’ve been?
KS: Absolutely. And I think, to your point, Chris, Jupiter changing signs—if you’re using a whole sign house system chart—Jupiter is changing houses as well.
CB: Yeah.
KS: And it’s moving into the Capricorn part of your chart, which, being ruled by a feminine sign, is going to be a part of your chart that you’re more naturally comfortable with a slower pace anyway. And so, I think the key is to understand that Jupiter wants to help you grow in that Capricorn part of your chart, but to do it in that slow, measured kind of way.
CB: Yeah. Like ‘what are your limitations’ tends to be more of Saturn’s thing in a Capricorn sign. You know, we were all focused on growth for the past 12 months. And now, with Jupiter moving into Capricorn, a Saturn-ruled sign, it’s slowing down. Because now there’s starting to be more of a recognition of limitations and the limits not being boundless, but instead, needing to grow within a certain fixed parameter of what is available to us right now, and what can we actually make use of.
KS: It’s very practical, really.
AC: Yeah. Well, it demands that we look at the practical parts of, yeah, consolidation, coherence.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Instead of just the optimism, or the boundless optimism of Jupiter.
KS: Totally. And I think there is something here around quality, not quantity. So I think that’s something to keep in mind.
CB: So quality, not quantity. That’s a good phrase or keyword.
KS: Yeah.
AC: I don’t think Jupiter in Sagittarius is anti-quality at all.
KS: I’m not necessarily saying that at all. But I think that particularly in Capricorn, there is this sense of we’ll take less, but we would like it to be better. Or we’re willing to wait for the right thing or take time to work towards that specific outcome.
CB: Or even how to make the most out of less.
KS: Yes.
AC: Yeah. That, definitely.
CB: Less available, but still learning how to maximize it and use it to its fullest extent.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Yeah. Well, and a great example of that, like how do you get gains from deprivation, right? Like eating less food for, I don’t know, a lot of Americans, myself included, is actually a health gain.
KS: Yes. Most of us, well, in the first world, in the West, we consume far too many calories.
AC: Yeah. Or being quiet for a while if you live in a loud world, which is a deprivation. It’s a removal. It’s actually a big gain in terms of mental health, internal coherence, stability, etc., etc.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And so, you get a little bit of accomplishing Jupiter by doing a Saturn.
KS: Yes. So the key, I guess, with looking at December is because this change is happening early in the month, it is a change in orientation, a change in perspective, a change in priorities.
CB: Yeah, definitely. Cuz it’s not just Jupiter moving into Capricorn, we’ve also got that eclipse. And I realize this jumping ahead to the end of the month, the 26th. But just seeing that eclipse also taking place in Capricorn is gonna bring in the next turning point or the next bookend, the next chapter in whatever that series of eclipses is for you, in each person’s life, that’s been bouncing back and forth between Capricorn and Cancer for a while now.
KS: Yeah.
CB: When did the first of that series start, again? It was certainly like a year ago.
KS: Maybe mid-2018?
AC: There was like kind of a bullshit eclipse in the middle of 2018, where it was like maybe if you have a telescope, it was an eclipse.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Yeah, the nodes went in Cancer/Capricorn then.
CB: Isn’t that the one we were debating? Cuz it was slightly within the 15° range.
AC: Yeah. But the first proper, that people were like, “Oh, shit, the Sun is gone,” was a year ago.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah.
CB: So already people have been dealing with it. And of course Saturn’s been in Capricorn for a while now. So people have been dealing with some of these Capricorn changes for quite a while. But this month is still pivotal in that it’s gonna mark some sort of turning point in that part of your chart, both in being a continuation of the changes that were already initiated by the eclipses happening there at least, starting a year ago, but now, accelerating some of that with Jupiter, basically, the largest planet in our solar system, moving into that same sign and concentrating and intensifying some of the experience and energy that’s going on there.
KS: Yeah, it’s a little bit like we think we know the Capricorn part of our chart well because we have had Saturn there for two years and the South Node has been there for more than 12 months. But we are gonna get a whole new—so I do think Jupiter teaches us things. It helps us understand a particular part of our chart more deeply. And that’s what’s gonna happen now, with Jupiter going there, and then the eclipse. It’s a very, very tight eclipse, too.
AC: I guess I see it more in terms of a continuation of the dynamics. I don’t think it’s gonna feel like a radical shift to people. I think it’s gonna feel like, “Oh, that’s what I do about it,” right? That’s the really good solve for whatever issues have been pinged off and on for a year. It’s like we get a benefic moving in for the whole year.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And it’s tied up really tightly with the eclipse. They’re within a degree.
CB: I would agree with you, if not for that eclipse.
AC: But we’ve already had the eclipses. And so, we know what eclipses in Cancer and Capricorn feel like already. We know what Saturn and Pluto feel like. This is, “Yay, Jupiter’s joining.” But we’ve already got three things that are exactly the same as what we’ve been doing for a year.
KS: Okay.
AC: And so, I mentioned earlier that one thing to note about Jupiter this month, or December and January, is that it’s very close to the South Node. And so, the meaning of that will be written most clearly on the eclipse, on the South Node, with Jupiter right there.
KS: Yeah.
AC: So it’s gonna emphasize that dynamic.
KS: Which, I think, the idea of the South Node being a bit of a feature this month I think is something. You know, that’s what you’re talking about and it is worth really emphasizing for our listeners. We have a very potent eclipse on the South Node, Jupiter is near the South Node, and we’ve got the Sun on the South Node this month as well.
CB: Mm-hmm.
AC: Yeah. Well, for the latter half.
KS: For the, yeah, second half of the month, once it gets into Capricorn.
CB: Sure. Let me throw up the chart, just so we can get into some of the more minute details of, let’s say, the first week of December.
KS: Yeah. Cuz, I mean, we do need to talk about—yeah, I guess if we stop talking about Jupiter in Capricorn for a minute.
AC: I mean, we queued up the eclipse. I have more things to say about the eclipse. I imagine you do as well.
KS: Absolutely, yeah. Whether we come back to it or whether we stay with it now.
CB: Sure. So there’s two lunations this month. One is just the Gemini Full Moon, and that’s not a huge deal. It’s just a normal Full Moon.
KS: It is a normal Full Moon. And I think there’s a level of lightness to that, potentially. Like enjoy that Gemini Full Moon because we then do go into a series of eclipses for the lunations following.
CB: Yeah, that’s a really good point. Cuz that’s while the Sun is still in Sag and Mercury has just moved into Sag. And so, this a somewhat light Full Moon, even though Jupiter’s ingressed.
KS: Yeah, Jupiter’s like off-axis to the lunation. But there is a different tone. There’s a lightness to that. So I think you wanna take advantage of that, if you can.
CB: Sure.
AC: Yeah. Well, and it’s interesting. Like Chris said, it’s a pretty normal Full Moon.
KS: Yeah.
AC: None of the benefics and none of the malefics are aspecting the Full Moon.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Right? It’s just a Full Moon in Gemini.
KS: Just a Full Moon in Gemini.
AC: It’s configured to Mercury.
KS: Its ruler.
AC: A Full Moon in Gemini is always gonna feel configured to Mercury, right? And so, it’s really a by-the-book Full Moon in Gemini.
CB: And so, that’s on the 11th/December 12th.
KS: 12th, yeah.
AC: You know, the Moon is departing from a square with Neptune during that, which is worth noting. But Mercury naturally, or a Mercury-ruled lunation is naturally going to be moving from muddle to rational order or some clarity.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And so, that’s there, right? The Moon is moving away from the square with Neptune and into the Full Moon. And so, like, okay, so let’s try to figure out how to think about this. Or, what can we say about this that’s clear?
KS: Yeah. I really like the Gemini Full Moon each year, when we have one, always between late November and late December every year. I always find myself doing like a big group, social, celebratory, end of year type of thing. And so, there is definitely an interactive quality to that. It can be a little overstimulating for the mind. And with the Moon coming off the square to Neptune, potential for a little bit of confusion or overwhelm. But it’s a nice time this month to mingle, meet new people. If you’re someone who likes to send a holiday card, I’m always doing that under this Full Moon.
AC: Yeah, it’s very chatty.
CB: Single and ready to mingle.
KS: Absolutely.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah. Very chatty, did you say?
AC: We won’t tell Peter.
KS: I’m not gonna be single and ready to mingle. I’ll be sending the Christmas cards.
CB: Okay.
AC: Yeah, I’m gonna be doing a livestream on that Full Moon with a friend.
KS: With a friend.
AC: I’m not sure if that’s announced yet, though, so I’ll leave it at that.
CB: Okay. That’s great symbolism for Gemini Full Moon, a chatty livestream.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Yeah.
CB: All right. So then why don’t we skip forward then and talk about the eclipse. So I’ve just put it up on the screen here. And one of the things that’s actually cool about this, that I hadn’t noticed until now, is that the eclipse happens at about 4° of Capricorn, it looks like, when the Sun and Moon conjoin, and they’re only like 4° off of the South Node.
KS: Yes.
CB: So this is a total eclipse. A solar eclipse.
AC: Total or an annular?
KS: I’ll checky-check.
AC: Cuz annular is also super tight.
CB: Super close? Okay.
KS: I mean, it’s super intense energetically, regardless.
AC: It’s a real eclipse.
KS: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
KS: There’s no questioning.
CB: It’s not one of those fake eclipses. But immediately after the Moon completes the conjunction with the Sun at 4° of Capricorn, Jupiter is already at 5 Capricorn by then. So the Moon hits Jupiter immediately after that, which is kind of nice—
KS: A couple of hours after.
CB: —offsetting thing.
AC: But it’s so combust.
KS: It’s a pretty smashed-up Moon.
CB: The Moon and Jupiter combust?
AC: Yeah. And a planet that combust is not gonna be able to do a ton. I think that externally, it’s a really important thinking point, mental point with Jupiter. But if we’re looking at external possibilities, a Jupiter that combust has no light.
CB: Sure. Yeah, I understand why you feel that way.
AC: Well, it’s not just a feeling. Combustion is part of the doctrine.
CB: Yeah, so is application and separation. And when planets conjoin and then they apply to benefics, sometimes it can bring in positive things. Whereas when they conjoin and apply to malefics, sometimes it can bring in more challenging things.
AC: Tell me more.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Oh, you two. Look, definitely the Moon is absolutely combust. But sometimes you see a little bit of insight or awareness about something—
AC: Oh, yeah.
KS: —coming from a combust planet.
AC: No, that was what I was saying, that I wouldn’t expect much from it externally.
KS: Right.
AC: But internally, it’s a really key moment. Like this is, in some ways, the most emphasized Jupiter’s gonna be for a long time, right? There’s a lunation on it, and it’s an eclipse. So there’s a tremendous emphasis, but behind the veil of matter.
KS: Yes. Yeah, so there’s something in that energetic, liminal space. To your point, Chris, with the Moon coming to Jupiter, there is a revelation of some kind.
CB: Yeah. Just in terms of sometimes when we have ingress of a new planet—especially an outer planet—into a new sign, we look for triggers or markers to know when we’re gonna start to really get a feeling for what that is about. And seeing an eclipse hitting at nearly the same degree, within the same degree as Jupiter at that time—especially if anybody has sensitive points around, let’s say, 4° or 5° of Capricorn or even 4° or 5° of the cardinal signs—they’re gonna be getting both an activation of the eclipse hitting that and Jupiter hitting it at the same time, which could be an important turning point for them in terms of that being more important for them, just personally, than it could be otherwise.
AC: Yeah, it’s definitely significant.
KS: Absolutely. I mean, the eclipse on its own—if you were to take Jupiter out—is significant because of the proximity of the lunation to the nodes.
CB: Right.
KS: But I am quite intrigued by this idea of a planet being between the lunation degree and the nodes itself. There’s something in that. There’s something else in the mix there. It’s not a typical solar eclipse in Capricorn.
CB: Sure.
KS: And I think, exactly, Chris, the 4°-or-5° cardinal points are incredibly stirred by this.
CB: So what else is going on by the time we get to this eclipse? We’ve kind of jumped over a lot of stuff.
KS: We missed the middle of the month.
CB: All right. Let’s back up.
KS: Cuz we got so excited. And, I guess, to summarize what we were saying, the early part of Capricorn is strongly active in new and powerful ways this month because of the Jupiter ingress and the solar eclipse.
CB: Yeah. The other thing we have early on, also in the second week, is the Venus-Saturn conjunction.
KS: Yes.
CB: And we’ve been like talking about this actually for the past couple of days—
KS: We’ve all been discussing. We all have different opinions on it.
CB: —about whether this is like positive. We’re gonna treat this more as positive for Saturn, we’re gonna treat this more as negative for Venus.
AC: Kelly was treating it as positive for Venus.
KS: No, no.
AC: You were talking about how excited you were about this.
KS: I do like a Venus-Saturn conjunction. And then we were talking—maybe I could be projecting some of my own chart here. I like the solidness of it. I like the clarifying quality.
CB: Sure.
KS: It’s not happy. I’m not saying that at all. But I think it shows you things that are real or solid and have substantial or long-lasting potential. And that may be less than what you thought, but you can take it to the bank that what you get, clear on under this, is solid and real, or you can write that in stone, if you like.
CB: Is there a way that we could generalize? Like one of the things I always thought was interesting—that goes back to the ancient delineations, but also, goes through to the modern ones—is in natal astrology, when somebody has a Venus-Saturn conjunction, there sometimes being age disparities or class disparities in relationships.
KS: Yeah, it’s a class age difference.
CB: Yeah. It’s like really classic, and it works. Like it’s a common thing.
KS: Totally.
CB: What is that, though? Is there an underlying archetype there, that we could generalize, that might be useful for how that might feel in the middle of the month?
AC: Distance.
CB: Distance in desires? Like having distance or having something restraining or something that’s keeping you from fully—
KS: There’s a restraint quality, I think.
CB: Okay.
AC: And if you’re restrained, that keeps you from getting closer.
KS: Yeah, yeah. And the quote that I always think of for this aspect is by Rumi. And I’m paraphrasing here, but it’s basically like the point is not to search and look for love. The point is to look inside yourself and find all the barriers that you have built against love.
CB: Okay.
KS: And that kind of speaks to this, that sometimes we have a desire to get close, but there’s something inside us that blocks or prevents that, and it can be conscious or unconscious. And I think this type of aspect can help you get clear on what some of those blocks might be.
CB: Identifying your blocks or restrictions or the things that make you not able to fully commit to something.
KS: Commit or connect, or be vulnerable, for instance, yeah. But you have a different take on this aspect.
AC: Well, I think that those things can all happen.
KS: Yeah.
AC: You know, it can also just be you really feel Saturn things for a couple of days.
KS: There’s a weightiness.
AC: “Oh, I’m really feeling my tax burden next year.” Where Venus is, there’s an emotional magnetization to whatever Venus is conjoined, right? So you’ll be like, “Oh, yeah. Oh, we’ve gotta do this. We’ve gotta talk to the landlord about this.” Saturn is obligations, things that you have to do.
KS: The necessities of life.
AC: Mm-hmm. And so, that can cramp Venus, right?
KS: Totally.
AC: It’s probably not gonna be like you’re feeling Venus. Feeling Venus can be grieving.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Sorry, Venus feeling Saturn can be grieving, right? Which is also a matter of distance between you and a person.
KS: Yeah, loss or separation.
CB: A loss, yeah. So intensely, you get the Venus feeling of love for something, but also, the Saturn feeling of loss or sorrow.
AC: Mm-hmm. On a relationship level, I would just add that it’s a natural time to talk about boundaries and agreements.
KS: The long-term planning kind of thing, or the rules of engagement. What are the rules by which we are playing?
AC: Yeah. And the expectations, which just kind of develop in relationships, often without discussion. And so, Venus-Saturn activates those emotionally.
KS: Yeah, so it’s like a chance to clarify, “Oh, I’ve noticed that this has been happening, or that’s been happening. Is that what we want to explicitly say? Or have we fallen into some sort of habit or pattern here?”
CB: Cuz Saturn can sometimes be like imperfections and focusing in on imperfections in a Venusian context that’s sometimes exacerbating imperfections in relationships and making them more prominent, but also, bringing a critical turning point, where they have to be addressed perhaps.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Yeah.
CB: Which sometimes, in the most negative extreme sense, with Venus-Saturn aspects, can mean Saturn is the negation of something. And if Venus is representing unions, it can be like the negation of a union or the rejection of a relationship.
KS: A hundred-percent.
AC: It could be a breakup election.
KS: It’s totally.
CB: A good election? You’re gonna elect a breakup?
AC: Yeah, I would do it two days after the Full Moon, when the Moon is opposing Saturn and Venus, if you would like a breakup to stick. That’s my election of the month.
KS: But I think you’re right. Because the reality check that Venus gets from Saturn shows you what is or isn’t working.
AC: But, see, that was part of what I was reacting to.
KS: Okay. Yeah, yeah.
AC: Cuz Saturn can also just be like, “Oh, I feel horrible today.”
KS: Right. Okay. That’s a passing thing.
AC: That’s not always real. Or like, “Yeah, I’m really focusing on what’s wrong with you,” without the rest of it.
KS: Okay, got it.
AC: And that’s not any more real than only focusing on the positive.
KS: That’s true. That’s true. I guess I’m coming from that perspective, you know, when people sometimes have an excessive amount of hope, or an amount of hope to a situation that is unrealistic to the nature of the situation.
CB: Could you reiterate again?
KS: So basically like say you started dating someone, and you’re a few months in, and you’re still in that kind of glow of ‘maybe it’s amazing’, but there’s something that’s not quite right. And I think an aspect like this can help you get really clear on either what the specific thing that doesn’t sit well with you is, or that it is maybe more substantial than you’re being honest with yourself about.
CB: Yeah, totally.
KS: And that’s where I think you get the breakup stuff coming in.
CB: Saturn’s very highly-discerning, but also, very critical.
KS: Hugely critical.
CB: And we were talking about this the other night, I think, in private, where there was somebody I knew who had it connected with Mercury or the 3rd house, and he was very critical of other people’s writing, but also often would turn that inward.
AC: Are we talking about me?
CB: No.
AC: Cuz this is all true.
CB: No, it’s another.
AC: I feel called out by this relatable content.
CB: Cuz you have a day chart, and you actually often end up managing that in constructive ways.
AC: Why thank you.
KS: You get workout.
CB: This was somebody who had it in a night chart, and it caused him to be, when it turned inward, so highly critical of his own work that he couldn’t publish. He couldn’t bring himself to release it because he almost had fear of being criticized, or criticism to the extent that he didn’t end up publishing.
KS: Became paralyzing for him.
CB: Yeah, like a portion, a small percentage of what he planned to or could have because that critical function from Saturn almost went overboard or went on the fritz or something like that.
AC: Well, and I could see if Saturn was one iota more unfavorable for me, I would fall off of that ledge.
CB: Right.
KS: Yeah.
CB: But what you were saying, Kelly, though, is when that gets applied. So I was talking about that in the context of like Mercury or writing or communications. But it can also be applied, when Saturn is together with Venus, to relationships and to sometimes trying to figure out a fine line between what is a sensible critique of what are the problems with this relationship or a potential relationship or what have you versus somebody that’s being overly-critical or overly-focusing on negative things, so that it’s become paralyzing.
KS: Yeah. You know, in every relationship, there are things that aren’t perfect. But something like a Venus-Saturn conjunction is gonna be a time to just remind yourself that there are some things that aren’t perfect, but you have to assess whether you can still be functional within that relationship, with those specific things not working well.
AC: Yeah, that exactly what you were saying when you said ‘imperfection’ earlier, Chris.
CB: Right.
AC: Because every relationship with another human will involve how you deal with their imperfection, as well as how they deal with yours.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And so, if you’re early in a relationship that might be a revelation as to what imperfection you will need to manage in the other.
KS: Yes. Yeah, and then a choice about whether you want to do that, essentially.
AC: And how to do that.
KS: Yeah.
AC: So you’ve formed a relationship around this. So this aspect is culminating around the 11th.
KS: 11th. Just before the Full Moon.
CB: Right. So some of those themes might be more prominent for you in that relationship, potentially, if that’s acting as a marker. But also, it can be relationships that start slowly and that you aren’t terribly optimistic about going into, but end up having more longevity in the long term, if you get through the initial phase, than you expect.
KS: Yeah. And I think, to put a little context here, I just realized this conjunction’s happening at 19 Capricorn. Now Saturn is back at this degree for the third time. It was first at 19 Capricorn back in March-April before it stationed retrograde.
CB: Okay.
KS: So there is something here, the Saturn piece, if this is directly triggering your chart. That piece from Saturn has been running all year. And Venus is kind of coming in on the last activation to offer something.
CB: Something positive.
KS: Something sweet.
CB: Something sweet or counterbalancing.
KS: Yeah, just a little. Like a little drop of sweetness into Saturn. I don’t think she’s enough on her own to take over Saturn. It’s like putting a baby in a grumpy old man’s arms, basically.
CB: Sure. I like that. That’s good.
KS: The softness. I’d love to see the grumpy old man doesn’t drop the baby.
AC: One of the consistent Renaissance images of Saturn is Saturn is in his chariot, the wheels are Capricorn and Aquarius. It’s usually pulled by dragons. And often Saturn is occupied with cutting the wings off of Cupid. You’ll see that in a hundred places.
KS: Yeah. And this is why I think this is a very important aspect for relationships, in all the ways we’ve talked about it.
AC: I would say the principles of Venus and Saturn, if there’s a commitment over a long period of time, you’ve got Saturn. If there’s love and affection, there’s Venus. I don’t necessarily think that this one conjunction is going to be hyper important for tons of people, cuz it’s only a couple of days.
KS: It’s just a couple of days. You’re right. It’s a part of the mood.
AC: The passing conjunction does point us to that principle in a relationship where Venus and Saturn are always—those always matter if you want to endure together.
KS: Yes.
CB: Sure. And somebody mentioned the keyword ‘restraint’ in the chat, which is a good keyword. Because sometimes Venus-Saturn stuff, or when Saturn’s tied in relationships, can be things that seem like a hindrance in the relationship, or could otherwise hold it back, but you still end up getting around it and having the relationship and just making due or making the necessary adjustments to commit to it anyways.
KS: Yeah.
CB: And I think that might actually be the underlying thing with what I was talking about earlier, the underlying archetype with like an age disparity. Cuz normally an age disparity might be something that’s a problem. Like you’re coming from different backgrounds.
KS: You don’t have the same social references or cultural references.
CB: You don’t listen to the same music or have the same television shows or maybe even the same hobbies or something.
KS: Yeah.
CB: And so, that creates a natural hindrance to a relationship, but it might still be something that you’re able to get through or get over.
KS: Yes.
CB: Or some of the old texts talk about class distinctions, like coming from a different class or background or health issues on one person’s part or what have you. Just the idea of somebody bringing something to the relationship that causes you to have to put more work into it or have a counterbalance rather than something that just naturally flows completely easily, without any problems whatsoever.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Mm-hmm.
KS: Yeah, that’s beautiful.
CB: All right. So that’s happening around the 11th and 12th, when the Venus-Saturn conjunction culminates.
AC: Yeah. So we’ve got a kind of chatty, lighthearted Full Moon while we’ve got Venus-Saturn. And so, those days are kind of gonna feel like one or the other.
KS: Yes.
AC: Like those influences don’t combine naturally by angle.
KS: No.
AC: And so, it’s kind of gonna be one or the other.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Okay. And then, what else is going on? So Mercury’s already going through Sag and is moving pretty quickly by this point. Mars is still going through its home sign. It’s in the middle of Scorpio.
KS: Yeah.
CB: What do you got, Kelly?
KS: Jupiter trine Uranus. That’s December 15, 2°. I think you’ve got it on the screen there.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Yeah, I’m kind of intrigued. I like a Jupiter-Uranus aspect. It’s got a bit of an exciting tone. There’s a subdued quality to this one because it’s the earth signs.
CB: Right.
KS: But also, this is a pretty substantial aspect for Uranus in Taurus and Jupiter in Cap. It’s like both of these planets are relatively new to these places, and I think it’s gonna be interesting to see how they kick off each other.
CB: Yeah. Cuz Jupiter-Uranus is such an innovative aspect, an enterprising aspect, an expansive one that sort of speeds up the expansiveness of Jupiter. But both in earth signs, there’s a real practical quality to it here.
KS: Yeah. I get the idea of like shifting foundations, or something structural having to be redone or remade. But I am curious of your thoughts on this, Austin.
AC: Yeah. I mean, if we didn’t have anything else in Capricorn that Jupiter-Uranus trine would be one of the primary things that I would interpret.
KS: Yeah.
AC: But Jupiter’s sharing Capricorn with Saturn, as well as a few other things. And so, that restrains a lot of the natural qualities of Uranus that are contrary to that of Saturn, right? Out of nowhere versus taking a long time. I think it lends a little bit of juice. Like Jupiter in Capricorn still has to move within the careful-and-grounded framework of Capricorn. But, you know, Uranus itself is trying to figure out innovation within the usually placid space of Taurus. So, you know, you have that elemental trining there. So, you know, it’s practical solutions.
KS: Yeah, practical, out-of-the-box solutions, or an encouragement to try something different about something that’s fairly established or fairly significant within your life.
CB: One of the throwaway things we said on the forecast episode last year, I think I mentioned—with Uranus going into Taurus as one of our main signatures—was the expansion of things like Beyond Meat and like meat alternatives.
AC: Mm-hmm.
KS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
CB: Have you seen how that’s kind of gone crazy over the past year and has actually kind of exploded?
KS: Exploded. And even Netflix documentaries about veganism and things like that. There’s a whole movement that is really amping up that Beyond Meat, plant-based stuff.
AC: The invention of new foods is a really consistent thing with Uranus in Taurus.
KS: With previous cycles of Uranus in Taurus.
AC: Yeah, like potato chips were invented by Uranus in Taurus.
KS: Yeah. A lot of the food manufacturing processes.
AC: Chocolate chip cookies.
KS: Well, that’s a great invention.
AC: Yeah.
KS: Especially now we have gluten-free ones.
CB: So this could be important. Cuz this is the only time that Jupiter’s gonna trine Uranus, right?
AC: Yep.
KS: I think you might be right. Yes, it’s a quick thing.
CB: So that could give a boost to some of the innovation that Uranus is initiating and has been pushing through Taurus over the course of the past year or two.
AC: I think it’s more useful that way. I think Jupiter can give more to Uranus.
KS: Yes.
AC: Jupiter’s got a lot to deal with. It is under more constraint parameters than Uranus is. Uranus has a whole sign to itself.
KS: Totally. I mean, that’s why I think this is important. Cuz I think Jupiter vibing up to Uranus is really helping.
CB: Jupiter’s in the superior position.
KS: Yeah, it’s like, “Uranus in Taurus, tell us what you wanna say.” You know, here’s a platform for that in some way.
AC: Yeah, it moves the Uranus-in-Taurus story along.
KS: Yeah, it gives that a boost. And Uranus at 2 Taurus—Uranus has been there 18 months.
CB: Yeah, it seems like it’s been over 2° forever now.
KS: It was one of those degrees that got the five-hit transits.
CB: Okay.
KS: So it’s been going on since—cuz Uranus stationed at 2 Taurus in mid-2018 and entered into the station again at 2 Taurus.
AC: Those of us with natal placements at 2 Aquarius are very aware of that.
KS: Familiar with this.
CB: You both have Venus there?
KS: No.
AC: I do.
KS: We have different-sign Venuses.
CB: What do you have in Aquarius?
KS: Nothing.
CB: Okay.
KS: No.
CB: You were just talking about Austin.
KS: Yeah, I was just talking about Austin.
AC: I was saying ‘those of us’, including the ‘royal’ we.
KS: Including the ‘royal we’.
CB: Okay.
AC: I mean, there are other people who have planets at 2 Aquarius.
KS: Yeah. Well, and 2 of any of the fixed signs, really. So 2 Taurus, 2 Scorpio, 2 Leo, and 2 Aquarius.
CB: Right.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Okay.
KS: So that’s an exciting different thing in the middle of the month.
CB: Yeah. That is right in the middle of the month, an innovative aspect. One of the things that comes up after that, in terms of sign changes, is later that week, in the third week of the month, we have Venus changing signs and finally departing and getting out of Capricorn.
KS: Well, speaking of Venus in Aquarius.
CB: Right.
KS: Yes. I’m looking forward to this, actually. Venus will still be in a Saturn-ruled sign, but she’s now off-axis to all the Saturn-Pluto drama.
CB: Right.
KS: I think that’s gonna be nice.
AC: Venus has to square Uranus.
KS: She does have to square Uranus. But she’s the ruler of Uranus there.
CB: And that’s on the 22nd, it looks like.
AC: Mm-hmm.
KS: Yes.
CB: So Venus exactly squares Uranus from 2 Aquarius to 2 Taurus. So that’s a different vibe. That’s a different aspect than Venus conjunct Saturn.
KS: A much different aspect.
CB: So if we’re talking about a Venus-Saturn conjunction earlier in the month and a relationship that starts under that—and the idea of something that starts off slow, but if it makes it through the initial testing phase has greater longevity—Venus square Uranus is more like something that starts off rapidly and unexpectedly.
KS: And out of the blue.
CB: Right. But sometimes can have a much higher burn rate than other relationships. And it can flare up, but die down quickly, instead of having as much longevity as Venus-Saturn.
KS: Yeah. I think that is the typical Venus-Uranus, the quick. I guess because Venus is gonna be in a fixed sign, I wonder if there is like a bump or an unexpected thing, but it could be possible to settle in, potentially.
CB: Sure.
KS: Yeah, just with the sign factor. I do like the slightly lighter quality of Venus in Aquarius, particularly coming into the second part of the month.
AC: Yeah, I prefer it.
KS: Yeah, I would rather have Venus not in Capricorn when we have that eclipse.
AC: Yeah, me, too. Well, and that’s important, not only for Venus and just a tone change, but that changes the dynamics in Capricorn, right? Cuz we had Venus in Capricorn for the first three weeks of the month. So we had Venus, Jupiter, South Node, Saturn, and Pluto all in Capricorn up to the point that Venus entered Aquarius.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And then the Sun replaces Venus in Capricorn, just a few days after the ingress. But that’s a different vibe.
KS: Well, but that vibe change is like December 20-December 21, basically. Venus departs Capricorn and then the Sun comes in the next day.
AC: Mm-hmm.
CB: Right. And then the Moon eventually catches up several days later, and we get the solar eclipse we were talking about. And then eventually we end the month with Mercury joining the party in Capricorn.
KS: Yeah. Joining the party, is that what you’re laughing at, ‘the party’?
CB: What is the date of the Mercury ingress? It looks like the 28th.
KS: 28th, yeah.
CB: Got it. Okay.
KS: Cuz Mercury’s moving very quickly this month. So we actually get a little taste of Mercury in three different signs throughout December.
AC: Yeah, I think I’m done with the Scorpio taste.
KS: Yeah.
AC: It’s already been like a month.
KS: You’ve had enough of that?
AC: Well, it’s been a month-and-a-half already.
KS: Well, it’s two months by the time it’s done, yeah, yeah. You know, Mercury being in a water sign, but the water sign ruled by Mars, it has been a little tense and fractious.
AC: Yes. People have told me that Twitter has been particularly spicy during this retrograde.
KS: That makes sense. And then we get Mercury in Sag for the bulk of the month, which is perhaps more uplifting and optimistic. But there is an outspoken quality to Mercury in Sag.
AC: Well, communications are more direct in Sag than in Scorpio.
KS: Yeah.
AC: They can be blunt to the point of rudeness. Mercury in Sag can be a little judgy.
KS: Yeah, absolutely.
AC: Jupiter’s a very moral planet, which means judging what is not moral, right?
KS: Yeah.
AC: So that can come off as superior or just judgy. And ‘Jupiter’ judgy is different than ‘Saturn’ judgy, but they’re both judgy.
KS: They’re still judgy.
AC: In traditional texts, you’ll see Jupiter associated, literally, with magistrates and judges.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Because it’s like, “Well, what’s right here.”
KS: Yes. What is the code, the moral code?
AC: And so, yeah, that’s Mercury in Sag doing Jupiter in Capricorn’s work.
KS: Yeah.
AC: So, you know, a little judgy. First 10° of Mercury in Sag, it’s in its own decan. It’s a little livelier. It can get some things done.
KS: Yeah.
AC: It’s particularly good for just getting it done super fast. You know, things that don’t need painstaking detail, but just need to get done.
KS: Just need to get done.
AC: And that overlaps with the Full Moon.
KS: And that’s gonna be the change of pacing, I think, with Mercury coming out of the more sluggish, slow water sign of Scorpio and then just getting it done.
AC: Yeah. And so, it’s gonna blaze through Sagittarius and then drop into Capricorn.
KS: Which is a change again.
AC: Yeah.
KS: Now we’re getting serious.
AC: Yeah, it’s sort of slow-fast-slow.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Everything really just gets amplified in all that Capricorn stuff once you get to the end of the month.
KS: Yeah, I’m glad you’re showing that on the screen because it is very extreme to see so many planets.
AC: Yeah. I mean, December is very ‘Capricorn-y’ and so is January.
KS: Yeah.
AC: It’s not like everything hops into Aquarius as soon as we get to January 1.
CB: Oh, right.
KS: No, no. Not at all.
CB: Cuz we’re building up to that Saturn-Pluto conjunction as well.
KS: Yes. I mean, I think Mercury’s gonna be into Aquarius possibly by then. Maybe not. But yeah, there’s a lot.
CB: I’m like skipping ahead to next month.
AC: I feel like maybe we should revise some of that Venus-Saturn discussion towards the negative. Cuz it’s Venus conjunct the Saturn-Pluto conjunction.
CB: Right.
KS: Okay.
AC: Which historically—
CB: Let’s talk about just Venus-Pluto conjunctions in general, cuz that’s a fun aspect.
KS: Well, we had one of those this month. I mean, we talked a lot about Venus-Saturn. But the way that second week of December works, we have Venus-Saturn on the 11th, Full Moon in Gemini on 12th, and then Venus-Pluto on the 13th.
CB: So Venus-Pluto aspects. Have you guys had experience with those?
AC: Yes.
CB: Yeah? Kelly smiles.
KS: Austin’s got a cheeky grin to the Venus-Pluto aspects.
CB: So it’s partially about intensity. Having a very intense relationship, let’s say, cuz Pluto goes to extremes. Like one of my favorite late astrologer Alan White-isms is that Pluto takes tiny things and makes them really big and blows them out of proportion. Like taking an atom and then like splitting it and it turning into a mushroom cloud.
KS: Right.
CB: Or it takes big things and makes them really small. But with Venus-Pluto, typically, it’s more of the first one, which is taking something very small and like blowing it out of proportion, or taking it very far.
AC: It will do the converse as well. It’s the 800-pound gorilla in the room. With Venus-Pluto, you’ll also have very tense dynamics, where nobody’s talking about the thing—the huge thing that’s minimized as much as possible—which when that stops being controlled, it explodes from tiny to big.
KS: Yeah.
AC: I wish you could do the ‘Alan’ voice, Chris.
CB: Yeah, I really can’t.
AC: I’ve tried and it’s just not worth it.
CB: Yeah. So this Venus-Pluto conjunction looks like it goes exact on the 13th.
KS: Friday, the 13th.
CB: Okay. So Friday, the 13th.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Like if you had that in a natal chart, let’s say, Kelly, what would be one of your delineations?
KS: Look, it does depend a little on the houses that Venus rules. But there is an intensity there and a tendency to be obsessive or to be, potentially, compulsive about something.
CB: right.
KS: To go to extremes. You know, to obsess over. There can be a very intense focus. Sometimes with Venus-Pluto—I think almost any planet with Pluto can get its blinkers on, where it focuses on a few things at a very extreme level of detail or depth and will want to understand every little thing about this. Now, if you’re trying to understand every little thing about a person, you could veer it to stalkerish behavior if that was an unwarranted or unwelcome type of thing. But if you were directing it towards a research project, or if you were doing investigative work of some kind, then it might have some productive context, if you like.
CB: But it can be tricky if you’re on the receiving end of a Venus-Pluto hard aspect and the relationship is not wanted. Then, yeah, it can become an obsessive or compulsive attempt to get into a relationship or something like that.
AC: Yeah, and it’s not just Pluto. It’s Saturn-Pluto.
CB: Right.
KS: Yeah, Austin does not want us to forget that it’s the two together.
AC: Well, I mean, they’re close.
KS: They are very close. You’re right.
AC: You know, when Venus is conjunct Pluto, it’ll be a degree-and-a-half from Saturn and vice versa.
KS: They are close.
AC: That’s really tight.
KS: Yeah, they are. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the other thing, I think, with Venus-Pluto, from a relationship experience, is that idea of depth and intensity and truth and revelation. It’s like if you wanna create intimacy, you’re gonna have to be more open or more honest, potentially.
CB: I always kind of think of the Romeo and Juliet thing as a Venus-Pluto aspect.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Cuz on the one hand, it’s like very romantic, the idea that they met each other and fell so intensely in love that they could not live without each other. But on the other hand, when you think of it, it’s like two teenagers that like knew each other for a few days and then killed each other—or killed themselves because they thought they had lost the other one.
AC: Yeah. Do you wanna live that story?
CB: Sure.
KS: Yeah.
AC: I’ll pass. Do you want your kids to live that story? Do you want your friends to live that story?
KS: Yeah.
AC: Keep it a story.
KS: Keep it in Shakespeare.
AC: Yeah.
KS: But I think that those types of tragic stories, if you like, can be Venus-Pluto in nature.
CB: Sure.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. And you’re right. There were other themes of like miscommunication.
KS: Yeah, it’s like, well, yeah, the Mercury-Neptune vibe.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Yeah, totally.
CB: Yeah. So that is a good point, though, that is thrown into the mix there of our Venus-Saturn conjunction. So that’s a little tricky.
AC: So if it were me, if there were issues coming up relationally, I would sit with them by myself.
KS: Right.
AC: I’d be like, “Let’s talk about this now.”
KS: Yeah.
AC: I’d be like, “I’m feeling some things, and I’m gonna think about that for a couple of days. And then I’m gonna see once I’m out.” Cuz that’s gonna be dark mood for a lot of people.
KS: Yeah.
AC: “Once I’m out of the heaviness of the mood, okay, what did I bring back from the underworld,” right? And also, Mars is in a perfect sextile there. And sextiles aren’t usually an issue, but it’s like another malefic aspecting exactly the same degrees.
KS: Yeah.
AC: So it makes it easy—it brings the Mars fire to the rest of it. You know, I would sit with those feelings and then figure out what you’re gonna talk about, not when you’re in the belly of the beast. Explore the belly of the beast, take notes.
KS: Yes, reflect. I like what you mentioned, Austin, about sitting with it. Because there’s something about this Saturn-Pluto conjunction in Capricorn that has a very monastic feeling to it. The idea of the isolation and reflection, and you could be very proactive about creating that for yourself. And for people who are really thinking about the Saturn-Pluto conjunction coming up next month, in some ways this is a little bit of a precursor that has a Venus slant on it.
CB: Yeah, I think just a lot of the stuff we were talking about earlier, about the Venus-Saturn stuff, both the positive stuff and the negative stuff, the Pluto conjunction is just gonna really intensify and exacerbate a lot of those qualities. Some of which could be good, but some of which could be bad, like the critical qualities, or the tendency of Saturn to reject something and just taking that to an extreme could be the experience for some people.
AC: Yeah. And also, control issues.
KS: Control, for sure.
AC: Cuz Saturn-Pluto, on a mundane level, is always about control and will push it to totalitarian heights and depths.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. All right. So looking back at the chart here, we are getting pretty late in the month. Are there other major things? So eventually Venus clears, by the middle of the month, Saturn and Pluto and gets out of Aquarius—gets out of Capricorn and into Aquarius pretty quickly after that, by the 20th.
KS: Yeah. I mean, one just sort of slightly messy day, I think, in the middle of month there is that Mercury square Neptune aspect around the 19th.
CB: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that comes up. Leisa was finding the electional chart this month, and we recorded the Auspicious Elections episode the other day. And we had a hard time getting around that in the middle of the month for finding electional charts because it’s just right there—Neptune at 16 Pisces and Mercury squaring it from 16 Sagittarius around the 19th or 20th.
KS: Yeah. It’s not a Mercury retrograde, but it has the feeling of some of that miscommunication or crossed wires or confusion about facts or details.
CB: Right.
AC: Yeah. Well, and I would say that even though it’s exact on the 19th, it’s the Virgo Moon, the previous couple of days, where you’re actually gonna feel it, cuz the Moon’s gonna T-square Mercury and Neptune, and the Moon in Virgo depends on Mercury.
KS: Yeah, that’s a great point.
AC: You may actually feel it more there, too, in advance than just the two planets perfecting the aspect.
KS: So that kind of wipes out a little bit of that week.
AC: Yeah.
KS: Maybe not wipes out, but it’s a messy factor.
AC: Yeah, like maybe allow extra time if there are technical procedures. Or if you need to drive to a place you’ve never been, maybe write down the directions and don’t rely on your phone.
KS: Cuz you’ll run out of batteries and forget the charging cord or something like that.
AC: Yeah. Or whatever program may get confused.
KS: Yeah.
CB: One of the things that we’ve skipped over and not talked about a lot—we talked about it a bit last month—is one of the transits. Partially, because there’s no real hard aspects with it this month, but Mars transiting through Scorpio.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Love it.
CB: Largely, yeah, giving supportive superior-square aspects or superior-sextiles to the Capricorn planets at various points most of the month.
KS: Yeah. And I think, Austin, you mentioned something briefly. We’ve been together a few days now.
AC: We’ve talked for probably 20 hours.
KS: At some point in the time we’ve been talking, I think you said, “I’m just gonna be working or productive.” Because the malefics are in conversation this month by that sextile.
AC: What’s dignified?
KS: Absolutely.
AC: The two malefics.
KS: The two malefics. So it’s just like get some work done.
AC: Yeah. You know, generally speaking, when the benefics are in great position, it’s easier to find a good time, if you go looking. When the malefics are in great position, and the benefics aren’t, it’s easier to find something productive to do. Or if you wanna look for trouble, it’s easier to find trouble.
KS: Yeah.
AC: So I would say don’t look for trouble with these dignified malefics. Look for something hard to do, that you’ll be happy you did.
KS: Yeah. Cuz I really like Mars in Scorpio. I’m there for it. I think it can be very determined and focused. There’s a real staying-power quality to it.
AC: Yeah. It’s my favorite Mars with my chart.
KS: With your chart, it’s your favorite version of a dignified Mars? Like it’s the one you prefer?
AC: Yeah, exactly. I like Mars in Aries. It’s my 10th, but I’m always exhausted at the end.
KS: It burns you out, okay.
AC: Mars in Cap in my 7th. You don’t want Mars in your 7th. Whereas Mars in Scorpio’s in my 5th. So it’s like supporting the ascendant, trines my own Mars, and it’s dignified.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And like you were saying, staying power is not only something I experience subjectively with it, but it’s the only sign that is fixed, that Mars is super-dignified in. Like that’s what it’s supposed to do.
KS: Yeah, of course. It’s supposed to be like the most sustained or enduring version of Mars. You’re right. The other two are cardinal signs.
AC: Yeah. And that makes sense with Mars, too.
KS: Absolutely. Yeah, that he would have more dignity in fast-moving signs.
CB: Yeah. So looking at it, it looks like the sextile, in terms of Mars’ transit through Scorpio. One of the most important turning points is probably gonna be that sextile that goes exact from 19 Scorpio, around December 19, to Saturn, at 19° of Capricorn.
KS: Yes.
CB: So that’s maybe peak time in terms of parity between those two dignified planets—with Mars being in its own sign and Saturn being in its own sign—if one was to, I don’t know, attempt to use that for something. Although that could be tricky.
AC: Yeah. It’s still two malefics aspecting each other, but it’s as friendly—
KS: As you could get.
AC: They’re both in their own sphere, and that’s as gentle an aspect as you can have.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
AC: But yeah, you know, Saturn is discipline, Mars is the sustained effort.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Well, and that’s gonna be one of our big training things this year is gonna be learning how to use malefic energy in electional charts, and how to get along with it. Some poisons obviously can kill you, but some can be used for good effect, if taken in the exact right doses.
KS: The right doses, yeah.
CB: Like a little bit. Too much, and you’re dead. But just the perfect amount, and maybe you can create some sort of positive, constructive, at least, effect.
KS: Yeah, yeah.
CB: So this’ll be a good test of that, that sextile.
AC: Yeah. Well, and it’s the surgery principle.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Antibiotics kill lots of things inside your body, including the enemies that have made it inside your body.
KS: That’s true. They kill the good things and the bad, but you get rid of the bad.
CB: Or like chemotherapy or radiation.
KS: Absolutely. Same thing. They’re killing more than what is bad, but they are, at least, doing the bad.
AC: And you literally have to have venom to make anti-venom.
KS: Exactly. Which in Australia is very important.
CB: Right.
KS: Cuz we have all of those deadly snakes and spiders.
CB: Well, you’re in Belgium now. What’s your natural predator in Belgium?
KS: Their french fries.
CB: Yeah, french fries. Like the chocolate shops?
KS: The chocolate, the cheese, and the french fries.
AC: Like particularly fearsome squirrels?
KS: There are no natural predators. I mean, other than the food. There’s a lot more sugar and chocolate there.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah.
AC: I don’t know. I read the Roman accounts of Belgium, and it sounds like a wild place.
KS: A wild place, okay. Yeah, there’s a lot of history. It’s quite phenomenal. The first and last shots of World War 2 were fired not far from where we live, for instance.
CB: Okay.
KS: So maybe that’s a different kind of Mars-Saturn conversation.
AC: I would say that’s Saturn-Pluto conversation.
KS: Saturn-Pluto conversation. There you go. That is true.
CB: All right. Going back to things, are there any last, major things we need to touch on?
AC: Are we ever gonna finish talking about the eclipse?
KS: Austin really needs more time.
AC: I mean, it’s a huge thing.
KS: It is a huge thing.
AC: We like started to talk about it twice and then veered off.
CB: So we did an eclipses episode back in July, after the last pair. And one of the things we really focused on—that Leisa and I focused on, we took chart examples from the audience—was just eclipses acting as important markers and turning points and drawing out and causing greater emphasis on the significations of the houses that the eclipses are bouncing back and forth between over the course of that year-and-a-half-or-two-year period.
KS: Yep.
CB: Because we’ve had eclipses. Like we had a year ago a solar eclipse in Capricorn, and then last summer, we had a lunar eclipse in Capricorn. This is not necessarily gonna be something new, but maybe either a continuation of a process that’s been going on for at least a year-or-year-and-a-half now, or it may be just the next phase in something that you could have seen building up or could have seen coming, that hits a critical turning point now, with this solar eclipse, in whatever house it’s falling in, in your chart. And then that’s gonna have an effect that’s gonna last for the next six months at least, until you get to the lunar eclipse—the next lunar eclipse in Capricorn next summer.
AC: Yeah, I would say that this initiates the final phase of the project.
CB: Yeah, that’s a good phrase.
AC: Well, if you remember, on the yearly, last year we talked about the eclipses being there with Saturn, and I believe I used a Marie Kondo metaphor. I believe I added a flamethrower to it.
KS: I’m sure you did.
AC: But the clearing out the backlog, making space. And I would say that this solar eclipse on top of Jupiter—with Jupiter having just ingressed—there’s a little bit of thinking of, okay, if you actually made some space in that house, what might you be able to put in it? And also, what systems can you set up to make sure it doesn’t just get clogged again?
KS: Yes. That’s a really good point, actually.
CB: Sure.
KS: Yeah. I like the flamethrower.
CB: One of the things, in terms of the symbolism, it’s a New Moon in Capricorn, which can sometimes indicate the start or the foundations or laying the seeds of something new that then grows and develops over the next six months, until you have the lunar eclipse there, six months later, and then you see a culmination of events. But also, with Jupiter moving into Capricorn, also indicating a growth phase in whatever house it’s moving through in your chart, Jupiter may then accelerate some of the growth indications or the starting-or-founding-something-new indications that might already be symbolized there by the solar eclipse, in whatever house it’s falling in. So let’s say it falls in your 10th house, starting some new phase in terms of career or work or your overall life direction. Falling in your 7th house, maybe starting a new relationship. 4th house, a new phase in terms of your home and living situation or something with your parents and so on and so forth.
KS: Yeah, I think there is something in that. And in my monthly subscription, when I was doing the month ahead for my subscribers, I really did look a little at the fact that we’ve got this New Moon in Capricorn. It’s an eclipse. But the very next day we have the Sun-Jupiter conjunction in Capricorn as well, and that idea of Jupiter kind of being burned in the Sun or being reborn. It is that very early stage or the inkling of the idea or the seed being planted, that is then gonna unfold over the next 6-to-12 months.
AC: Yeah. Well, in six months. Cuz we’re pretty much done with that cycle.
KS: With the eclipse cycle. Yeah, but the Jupiter in Capricorn piece of that, I think, has got the longer timeline.
CB: Right.
AC: Yeah. I think the Jupiter nodal piece will be done in six months. But Jupiter’s got a lot to do this year, right?
KS: Yes.
AC: Jupiter’s also got plans with Saturn. Jupiter’s also got plans with Pluto.
KS: Yes. Jupiter has a lot of big meetings.
CB: What are its station degrees? Does it get into Aquarius before it stations?
KS: No, no. It’s something about 27-ish. Something in the third decan. Let me tell you exactly.
CB: Okay. I’m, again, like jumping ahead to what we should be talking about tomorrow on our year ahead forecast.
KS: Which we will. 27 in May.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah, 27°.
AC: Yeah, it spends a lot of time with Saturn and Pluto.
KS: Yeah, it’s just there all year.
CB: Got it.
KS: It gets a break from Saturn.
AC: The eclipse, although it can be very significant, it’s not fortunate. It’s not like a great time to elect things. Eclipses are powerful, and they may plant seeds, which end up being fortunate over the long term, but you don’t wanna schedule things for eclipses.
KS: No. And I think, too, one of the contradictions, if you like, in this eclipse, it’s a New Moon eclipse, which often encourages people to think about the future or new inceptions. But it is on the South Node, which has this tone of letting go or emptying out or depletion. You know, the eclipses have an instability factor to them anyway. So there is, do we have to keep doing the clear out? Do we wanna think about where we’re going? But I think the two are quite intimately connected in that there is still a little bit of the Marie Kondo flamethrower before we can do the new.
CB: Some people, though, might have a hard time not starting things or not having some new phase of their life be initiated under this eclipse. And I don’t think they necessarily have to just not start anything new or drop anything. I understand the principle of eclipses being somewhat challenging energy to start things electionally, if you’re doing a global, yearly election for ‘when should I start this new thing’. But some people are gonna find themselves sort of swept up in new events in their life, and they’ll start heading in a direction that they may not be able to just not move forward with.
AC: And that’s different than an election.
CB: Sure.
KS: I think that you were referring to elections.
AC: Like don’t not have ideas during the eclipse. Don’t not have revelations. But, you know, if you’re like, “Oh, I’m gonna start this business,” don’t start it during the eclipse. Like don’t incorporate during the eclipse, right?
CB: If it’s in somebody’s 10th house, they’re gonna do it and they’ll just see.
AC: Yeah. I would then they will get to have an eclipse chart for their business. I will say don’t do it. It’s not worth it. Have revelations. Have experiences. Pick something much more favorable for manifestation than a total solar eclipse. If what you want is a removal of life-giving light from your thing, then maybe that’s appropriate.
CB: Sure. I would just say, practically speaking, I see people start stuff on eclipses and sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn’t. It just depends on how their natal chart is situated. And if it’s hitting it positively or negatively can sometimes make a huge, huge difference.
KS: I think one of the other factors, just with the timing of this eclipse—it is happening on December 26.
CB: Right.
KS: Now, in Australia, this is a public holiday. It’s the day after Christmas. Nothing is happening in Australia, except everyone’s going to the beach and eating leftovers. One of the feelings I had is there is a quality of low energy or the tiredness that can come in with an eclipse in general, whether you do or don’t start something.
CB: Cuz it’s not just the start of a new lunation cycle, but it’s also the end of one.
KS: Yeah, the end of one. And I guess I just really think about, socially and culturally, I know not everybody celebrates the Christian holidays, for instance, or what have you, but everybody’s out of their normal routines at this time of year. So it feels like there’s an unusual extremeness to this coming in from the eclipse. Yeah, somebody in the chat has just said: “Boxing Day in the United Kingdom.” That’s actually what we call it in Australia.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah, it’s a two-day holiday in Australia, and I guess, in the UK, too.
CB: Got it.
KS: Yeah.
CB: All right. So are there any other things? This is pretty much taking us to the very, very end of the month at this point. Are there any major things that we needed to touch on, that we have not yet at all?
KS: I thought it might be fun just to very briefly just look at December 31, with New Year’s, because there’s a Moon-Neptune conjunction happening that day.
CB: Okay.
KS: So, you know, just plan accordingly. It could be a little bit messy, maybe.
CB: Yeah, that really does go exact that day. So it looks like it goes exact here, at least in Denver, at 16° of Pisces, around like 5:00 PM. So yeah, later in the day.
KS: Yeah. I just think it just could be a little bit messy if there’s the excess of partying and drinking. And maybe that’s what people are looking for. But I also think sometimes a celebration with the Moon, in a water sign, can incline to a little bit more of a smaller group or kind of a quieter setting.
CB: Right.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Sure.
KS: I just thought that might be fun for listeners, to get their astrology and their party plans.
AC: The end of a decade.
KS: Well, that’s the other thing. It is the end of a decade, yeah. Any final thoughts from you?
CB: People are doing those flashback pictures on Twitter where it’s like a picture of you from 2009 versus a picture from 2019. What would a picture of you from 2009 look like?
KS: I had way less gray hair and a lot less wrinkles.
CB: Okay.
KS: I mean, I would just be younger.
CB: I mean, you’ve done a lot of consultations in the past 10 years.
KS: I have done a lot of consultations.
CB: Lot of clients.
KS: Yeah. I’ve raised two teenagers in that time as well.
CB: Okay.
KS: Which would also contribute. I got married in that time as well.
AC: Yeah. I don’t know, I look, I don’t know, slightly thicker than I did back then.
CB: Yeah. I mean, you look older and more mature. Like grandfatherly is not the right term.
KS: You have such a beautiful, young face.
AC: When I shave the white hair off of it.
KS: That’s true. Yeah, my husband has the same problem when his regrowth comes through. Cuz he’s a baldy, it comes through on his head and ages him. Like we go to the store and they get the seniors discount.
CB: Well, and also, for you, Austin, part of yours was coming out as ‘Austin Coppock’ and your name, and shedding your—
KS: Your nom de plume.
CB: Yeah, your image of ‘the Baron’, which was the pen name you hid behind for a number of years.
KS: When did that happen?
CB: That was like 2010-2011.
AC: It was September of 2010, yeah, that I shed that. So yeah, I grew flesh on my face.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Yeah, I believe I was skeletal before that.
KS: You still have a lot of skeletons.
AC: I do. I do.
KS: That’s consistent. What about you, Chris? 10 years? Did you have hair 10 years ago?
CB: I did have a full head of hair until I went through my Saturn return. That was one of my Saturn return things. I had a lot of Saturn return stuff, but that was one of them.
KS: Yeah.
CB: But I also was early on in building up my career. Like I was writing my book by the late 2000s, and I was teaching classes, and I was doing consultations, but I was not successful as an astrologer yet. And I occasionally had to lapse back into my day job, which was being a barista and working at Starbucks. So I had trouble finding it—I wish I could find it. But if you had a picture of me from 2009, it would be me—
KS: In your Starbucks uniform.
CB: Yeah, in like a Starbucks uniform working there and then going home and reading ancient texts and translations and looking at time-lord periods and everything else. And then on my birthday, November 1, 2010, I took over Traditional Astrology Radio from Jacqui Menkes and then started the whole odyssey of the podcast over the course of the past decade.
KS: So that’s been your decade experience.
CB: Well, yeah, becoming successful as an astrologer, both in doing consultations and classes, and finally finishing the book after 10 years, and then doing this.
KS: Yeah.
CB: And then hanging out with you guys. Austin, I met you in 2006. And Kelly, we met, finally, in 2012.
KS: Yes. Yeah, I saw you in 2008. We didn’t interact directly, but I was like, “Oh, my God, that’s Chris Brennan.”
CB: Right.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Cuz your reputation had preceded you all the way to Australia.
CB: Okay.
AC: Also, what else were we doing? We were probably still posting on MySpace a little bit in 2009.
KS: You guys were.
AC: It was like pretty dead.
CB: The transition was starting to happen by 2008-2009.
AC: Yeah.
KS: I just skipped that part, cuz I’m a bit technologically-blah.
CB: Well, that’s been a big change for you, technological adoption.
KS: Actually, that’s true because I only just joined Facebook in like 2008. I might have signed up to MySpace, but I don’t recall ever spending time there. And I certainly didn’t know you guys from MySpace.
AC: It was way more fun than anything we have now.
KS: Even the ‘Gram?
AC: It was before people ruined the internet.
KS: Except the internet is how shows like this can go out in the world.
AC: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
AC: There are some consolation prizes.
KS: Consolation prizes. I like it. That’s true. End of a decade. We will need a Moon-in-Pisces moment on New Year’s Eve.
CB: Yeah. Yeah, that’ll be good for that. All right. I think then we’ve come to the end of the forecast segment of this episode. So we’re gonna take a quick break, and Leisa’s gonna come in here and do the electional chart for December—
AC: Oh, okay.
CB: —where we picked out an electional chart. We had two major candidates, either one at the very beginning of the month or one at the end. So we’ll see which one we went with. We did record a full episode the other day on Auspicious Elections, where we found four or five electional charts for the entire month, but we always highlight one of them to show. So Leisa’s gonna join us for that. I think one of you is gonna take a break. Why don’t you guys talk actually for a minute, while I get that set up?
KS: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we’ll hand it over to you, and then we can duck out.
AC: Yeah. Go make it rain.
KS: Yeah. Were you gonna say anymore, Austin, on something?
AC: Maybe we should do our plugs now?
KS: Oh, yeah.
AC: Don’t we do the plugs in the transition anyway?
KS: What do you wanna plug?
AC: So Kelly, what do you have going on in December?
KS: This is what I wanted to tell people about. In December, actually, I am teaching a webinar on Jupiter in Capricorn on the 1st of December. But after that, I finished teaching for the year. But I wanted to let people know I’ve got two workshops in January. I’ve got a workshop in Sydney and a workshop in New York. And if you go to my website, kellysastrology.com, and go to the event or the calendar tab, you will find out all the details on that.
AC: Wow.
KS: What about you?
AC: You’re just everywhere. You have anything going on in Hong Kong?
KS: No, I’m not going to Hong Kong.
AC: What about Moscow?
KS: No Moscow.
AC: What about Johannesburg.
KS: No Jo-berg.
AC: Okay. So Kelly’s only in like half the world in January.
KS: Well, I’m just doing the US and Australia. Yeah, what are you doing?
AC: Oh, let’s see.
KS: Doing anything in December?
AC: Yeah. Well, I’m not doing any events.
KS: Cuz you’re finished teaching for the year.
AC: Yeah. There’s a Jupiter series that I elected for Sphere + Sundry that comes out in December.
KS: Very exciting. You gotta get the last of that.
AC: It’s a Jupiter series, but it also has the Moon conjunct Regulus.
KS: You put my two favorite things into one product.
AC: I was very excited to find that and to find it worked with hours and angles.
KS: Okay.
AC: So that should be a good’un.
KS: And do we have a release date?
AC: I think it’s Thursday, the 5th. Don’t quote me on that.
KS: Okay.
AC: I think Kait plans to release it early.
KS: Okay.
AC: I’ll be putting out a long, yearly piece, like I always do.
KS: Yeah, your beautiful writing.
AC: Oh, why thank you, yeah. It’ll be, yeah, extensive and—
KS: In-depth.
AC: Grim.
KS: And this is your outfit.
AC: Yeah, yeah.
KS: Okay.
AC: It’s not all grim.
KS: No. There’s moments.
AC: I try to not minimize challenges.
KS: You try to normalize expectations.
AC: Yeah. It’s a big decade. It’s a big year. And then, hopefully, I will get the sign-ups up for my yearly classes for 2020. That’ll certainly go up in January.
KS: When are you planning to kick them off? Are they gonna start February or March?
AC: I need to look at what I wanna do electionally. But the eight-month classes will begin either second half of March or early April.
KS: Fantastic.
AC: Yeah. So let’s see I’m writing. I’ll be on Rune Soup doing a chat with Gordon about yearly stuff later in December.
KS: Excellent.
AC: I think that’s it.
KS: Yeah. Oh, yeah, The Water Trio Podcast that I do with my two girlfriends, we are doing a special bonus, yeah ahead episode.
AC: Oh, very nice.
KS: That’ll be out early December. Actually, we’re gonna record that next week.
AC: Wow.
KS: Yeah. It’ll be different, obviously.
AC: Will you be on a different continent?
KS: When I record that? Yes, I will be.
AC: Of course you will.
KS: I do have a lot of travel in the next couple of months, actually.
AC: It’s almost like Mars in Scorpio is visiting your 9th house.
KS: Almost like that. Oh, my goodness.
AC: That’s so weird that it’s so much like that.
KS: It’s so weird that it’s like that. And then in January, Mars in Sag will be in my 10th, and I’ll be hither and thither.
CB: Okay. Austin, why don’t you take a break, and Leisa will take your seat. You’re gonna step out, too?
KS: Yeah.
CB: Okay, so both of you. And Leisa, you can take Austin’s seat.
KS: We’ll be right back. Oh, damn. I’m gonna miss the election.
CB: All right. So welcome to the show, Leisa.
LEISA SCHAIM: Thank you. Thank you. Here I am.
CB: All right. So the other day, we recorded the Auspicious Elections Podcast, which we do for patrons on the $5 and $10 tiers.
LS: Yeah.
CB: And you found something like five or six elections for this month. Obviously, we had a big shift and the quality of the elections and the way that we’re having to elect is much different, now that Jupiter’s moved out of Sag and has moved into Capricorn.
LS: Yeah. It’s a huge difference. And I think one of the things that we had to kind of grapple with and sort of put a notice out about is the change in expectations, right? It’s not gonna be things—and you guys have been talking about this today, of course, too. And so, things that you elect are gonna move more slowly, they’re gonna grow more slowly, but they might have more staying power because of all the Saturn.
CB: Right.
LS: Yeah.
CB: Yeah, so we had a choice. Cuz we always feature one electional chart each month on this forecast episode. So we’re trying to decide between one from the beginning or one from the end. And we went with one from the end of the month.
LS: Yes.
CB: All right. Let’s take a look at that. What’s the date for the electional chart this month?
LS: So it’s gonna be December 30, around 10:15 AM. And that’s for here in Denver.
CB: All right. 10:15 AM. And what’s the rising?
LS: So this is gonna be an early Pisces rising election, with the Moon having just recently also ingressed into early Pisces in the 1st house.
CB: So just make sure, in whatever your location is, basically, cast a chart for December 30. Cast it for around 10:15, but then adjust the ascendant until the ascendant is in early Pisces in your location, whatever your city is.
LS: Yeah. And you will need to adjust, especially because the Moon and the ascendant degree are so early, but you wanna make sure that you get both. And so, you wanna make sure that the Moon has definitely ingressed into Pisces, particularly because it’s separating from a square with Mars in Scorpio right before that. So you definitely need the Moon, having ingressed into Pisces.
CB: So in some instances, you might need to move the election forward a day.
LS: Yes. So, I mean, just quick adjustment tips are gonna be it’s about 20 minutes later, I believe, in Seattle, on the West Coast. It’s about 11:00 AM on the East Coast, around New York City. And then it’s gonna be a day forward, around this same election time, around 10:15 AM, but the following day, December 31, if you’re kind of on the other side of the world. So Sydney, Australia, Hong Kong, Beijing, China, all of those are one day forward.
CB: Got it.
LS: Yeah.
CB: Okay. So let’s take a look at the chart. So the chart has Pisces rising, Moon in Pisces, early Pisces. The ruler of the ascendant is Jupiter, and it is in Capricorn.
LS: In Capricorn. So this is really just kind of going with the momentum of all those Capricorn planets. Because you can’t avoid it this month.
CB: Right. You just have to embrace it.
LS: You have to embrace it. And so, we’re gonna embrace that with this election. So it is Jupiter with Saturn, Pluto.
CB: Kelly’s gonna join us.
LS: Oh, okay. Oh, you wanna listen, okay.
CB: Okay.
LS: Okay. Do you wanna put the chart back?
CB: Yeah.
LS: Okay.
CB: There we go. This is the first time we’re doing this, so it’s a little chaotic.
LS: Yeah. So this has Mercury, Jupiter, Sun, Saturn, Pluto in Capricorn. So it’s a huge Capricorn stellium in the 11th house. So this is a really good election. It’s a good, solid, general election for things that you want to grow with more stability and slowly over time to build something up. Of course, particularly for 11th house matters, since that stellium is in the 11th house of friends and groups. This would be really good for formalizing an organization because all of the Capricorn is more tending towards Saturnian types of formal groups. So if you wanted to found an organization that might not get off the ground quickly, but might last over time, this might be good for that. The Moon in Pisces is a kind of nice softening touch, I think. So much Capricorn, you know. But the Moon in Pisces is kind of idealistic and softer. And so, that gives it a softer tone, which otherwise wouldn’t be there at all. We were avoiding the middle of the month because of that aforementioned Mercury-Neptune square.
CB: Yeah. So we’re finally clear of that.
LS: Totally clear.
CB: Because we aren’t using Capricorn then.
LS: Mercury’s in Capricorn. And so, because of that piece as well, this is not only better for Mercury things—just thinking sort of clearly in general—but Mercury in this chart is specifically ruling the 7th house of partnership and the 4th house of home and family. And Mercury is applying to a conjunction fairly closely with Jupiter.
CB: Okay. So we’ve got a nice applying aspect between the ruler of the 1st and 10th and the ruler of the 4th and 7th.
LS: Yeah, exactly. So this will also be particularly good for things involving home and family matters or partnership matters. And again, it’s gonna be a more sober tone, but sober-slow growth still.
CB: Sure.
LS: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. All right. I like that. So good 11th house stuff going on. And I noticed the only planet that we almost can’t do very much with is Venus. Cuz even though Venus has finally left Capricorn, it’s sort of a loner in Aquarius, in the 12th house.
LS: Yes.
CB: And it looks like you’ve attempted to mitigate that here by making it sextile the degree of the midheaven.
LS: Yes, exactly. So if you can do that in your location, definitely try to configure the midheaven degree to Venus.
CB: So try to put the degree of the midheaven within 3° on either side of the exact sextile or some sort of exact major aspect with Venus.
LS: Yeah, exactly. Since Venus is in the 12th. And so, of course, 3rd house matters, since Venus rules the 3rd house, might not be the best use of this election. Because even mitigated, Venus isn’t in the best shape because it’s in the 12th house and getting an overcoming square from Mars.
CB: Yeah.
LS: So, you know, try not to use this for things that really require the 3rd house things. This isn’t really like a great chart for travel, for instance, with both the 3rd house ruler in the 12th, with the overcoming square from Mars, plus, Mars itself in the 9th house, the other travel house.
CB: Yeah, in a day chart.
LS: Yeah, in a day chart. So the travel houses aren’t great here, so maybe don’t use the chart for that. But other than that, it’s pretty good for many other purposes.
CB: Yeah. This is a pretty good, all-purpose chart. And this is after the solar eclipse. And it’s long enough after that the Moon is in a sort of waxing sextile with the Sun. So we’re in the waxing phase of things, which is usually better for growth and starting new things.
LS: Yeah, exactly. It has that going for it as well. So, I mean, given all of the challenges of the December astrology, this is actually a pretty decent chart.
CB: Yeah. It’s a super-Capricorn chart. But to whatever extent you’re gonna be able to use that energy productively or constructively, this is gonna be one of those instances.
LS: Yeah. It’s good for Mercury and Jupiter coming together. So maybe some sort of grounded wisdom going on there and being able to communicate that. And then, what was I gonna say? This chart reminds me specifically of like an idealistic organization that’s trying to get its act together and become more formal.
CB: Sure.
LS: You know, with Neptune and the Moon in Pisces in the 1st house and then sextiling all that Capricorn in the 11th concretizing things.
CB: Yeah.
LS: Yeah.
CB: That makes sense. All right. That sounds pretty good. Is there anything else we should mention about this chart before we move on?
LS: You can’t use it in London.
CB: Why?
LS: Because it just doesn’t work. Like the Moon isn’t into Pisces, I think, by that point.
CB: Even if you put it a day forward?
LS: Yeah, even a day forward, then you lose the Moon applying to Jupiter and Mercury. Oh, and I should say, actually, the Moon also has reception with Jupiter, as it’s applying to Jupiter, which is a really nice thing in this chart as well, which you can get earlier in the month.
CB: Right. Cuz the Moon is in Jupiter’s sign, and it’s applying to an aspect with Jupiter.
LS: Right. So it does make that Moon-Mercury-Jupiter aspect, particularly, even more positive.
CB: Okay.
LS: The London thing, yeah, it doesn’t work at this time, and it doesn’t work a day forward. It’s already passed. So what you can do, but really briefly, is move it to around 3:45 PM, and it’s an early Cancer rising chart.
CB: Okay.
LS: But it’s very brief, before you lose the day chart status, after the Sun goes below the descendant.
CB: Got it.
LS: So if you have something you can do really quick, in like five-seven minutes, around 3:45 PM, you can use a Cancer rising chart for that.
CB: Okay. So this is where our alternative elections would come in handy, if you’re living there.
LS: Yes.
CB: Because we have five or six other charts for next month, for December, that you could use instead.
LS: Exactly. And these are particularly tricky this month. Because everything’s early in the signs, that you’re trying to get the applications for early degrees. And so, that’s why I threw out, in our electional podcast, a bunch of different options. Well, does this work in your location? Okay, then try the other ones?
CB: Yeah.
LS: Yeah.
CB: So this is the start of our long journey of trying to elect Capricorn stuff all year.
LS: Yeah. I mean, I’m less daunted than I thought I would be. It took me a lot longer than usual to look through December for elections, but I think I’m adjusted now.
CB: Okay.
LS: Yeah.
CB: All right. So this is but one chart we’re gonna highlight for this month. And then if people want more charts for other days, in different parts of the month, they can subscribe to the Auspicious Elections Podcast by going to theastrologypodcast.com and clicking on the elections tab. And then you’ll find out more information about how to sign up for that and get access to it on Patreon. We recorded it, and I’m gonna release it sometime in the next few days. So that should be available really soon.
LS: Mm-hmm.
CB: Cool. Well, thanks a lot for stepping in and joining us for this episode to introduce and talk about the chart.
LS: Yeah, you’re welcome. It’s nice that we’re all live here, in person, together today.
CB: Yeah.
LS: It’s novel, yeah.
CB: Cool.
LS: All right. Switch off?
CB: Yeah, let’s find Austin, and then we’ll resume with our general chat discussion for the rest of this episode before we wrap it up.
LS: Okay. Sounds good.
CB: All right. Hey, guys. Welcome back.
KS: We’re back. Okay.
CB: We’re back. Oh, right. We need to talk a little bit about our sponsor for this month. Our amazing sponsor who’s been with us for the past few months is the Honeycomb Collective Personal Astrological Almanacs. Which we all have our personal copies of, and you guys have actually been enjoying and using lately for the past month or so, right?
KS: They’re amazing. The level of detail, I have questions. I’m like, how are they doing this? It’s fantastic. It’s a really comprehensive piece. And I like that there’s both the transits of the day, as well as the personal transits for me.
CB: Yeah. And I’ve been getting used to that and adjusting to that, and it’s been a lot of fun learning. So it comes with like your Sun, Moon, and rising on the cover, of course.
KS: Yes.
CB: And then you get a nice picture of your natal chart. There’s like a key. So if you’re learning astrology, you can start to learn the glyphs for everything, or the symbols that are used for everything, which is helpful. Nice little picture of your natal chart and all of your placements at the beginning. And then it just jumps into a bunch of useful stuff, like lunations. I know this is probably your favorite part, Kelly. There’s like a personalized ephemeris at the very end.
KS: I’m very thrilled.
CB: For whatever your reference city is, it tells you the exact dates of ingresses of different planets and stations.
KS: And you totally get to customize this when you order it. You just tell them where you live or where you’re gonna spend most of your time that year, and you get an ephemeris for your location. I mean, it’s amazing. And it’s not $200.
CB: Yeah. I mean, normally, this is something that would cost like $70 or a hundred dollars or something like that. But it’s like only $30 or something.
KS: 35 or something, I think, for a year. If you’re interested in astrology, and you wanna start tracking your cycles, this is going to really help you do that.
CB: Yeah. I mean, cuz that’s what we all had to do back in the day.
KS: We had to ‘old school’ it.
CB: Yeah. Back in the day, when we had to walk to and from school, like uphill in the snow.
KS: Uphill both directions.
CB: Yeah.
AC: We had a pocket ephemeris in our hand.
CB: Yeah, exactly.
KS: That’s right.
CB: We had our little blue or white ephemerises in some instances that we would just have to highlight and write and mark on. And of course they fall apart.
KS: They fall apart. And they’re only for one location, and they’re not for you personally.
CB: Yeah. So you have to adjust the timezone conversion in your head and like subtract eight hours or add eight hours.
KS: Yeah.
CB: This is not that. So kids have it easier.
AC: This is not your grandpa’s almanac.
KS: No.
AC: Would you say that I’ve become grandfatherly, Chris?
CB: I was trying to think of a more complementary term than ‘grandfatherly’. But I think there is a more grandfatherly tone.
KS: Yeah, you’re doing your Jupiter. It’s good. It’s a good thing. And then there’s two options for the binding, too, which I liked. Cuz, Chris, I noticed you have it bound like a book.
CB: Yeah, I got the perfect bound one, which is good. But I definitely still like the spiral-bound that you have.
KS: I like the spiral for journals.
CB: Cuz it lays open.
KS: Yeah, I like them flat.
AC: I think I like the spiral-bound.
KS: Yeah. But you can choose that. Like that’s the customization.
CB: Yeah. So it’s all highly-customizable. Other features of it—
AC: Is there an alligator skin option?
CB: An alligator? Goat skin, like your book.
AC: A golden goat edition?
CB: We’ll have to see.
AC: Maybe next year.
KS: I don’t know if people can see that for the Capricorn.
CB: Oh, let me show it.
KS: Do you have it on the screen?
CB: Hold it up again. So that’s one of the illustrations for January, yeah.
KS: So each month has an illustration.
CB: And then, yeah, it shows your natal chart at the beginning. And then of course you have your personal daily transits and when certain transits go exact, both in your natal chart, as well as ingresses, like showing when the Moon goes into Scorpio and exactly what time in your city that day. We’ve also got stations and information about when the inner planets and outer planets station during the course of the year. There is what I call a graphic ephemeris, but it’s not really that. It’s more of just a graphic illustration of when certain outer planet and inner planet transits will go exact during the course of a year, which is super cool, and I really like. And yeah, there’s a bunch of different features.
KS: Yeah. It’s quite amazing. I think it’s great value. It’s very detailed, the personalization. When I saw this I was like if this had been around when I was learning astrology, the amount of info that you could have access so easily.
AC: Yeah, it’d be really helpful.
KS: Super helpful.
AC: Yeah, just doing the transit journaling, which I think is one of the best ways to really integrate your knowledge of transits.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Yeah. And I think if you were to get this for the year ahead or what have you, then you could put your life events in there. And you’ve got the transits right there, and then you can keep it as a reference to look back at.
CB: Well, it’s also a good thing in terms of expectation versus the reality. And seeing a transit coming up and trying to come up with an expectation of what you think it’ll manifest as, then experiencing it, then reflecting on that after the fact is one of the big ways that people learn astrology. And that’s what this is really useful for, I think, the most.
KS: Totally.
AC: Yeah. And that’s a good way to, yeah, work on your skills.
KS: There’s a question that came up. “How long does it take for Honeycomb to issue the book?” Mine arrived within maybe two to three weeks of ordering it.
AC: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KS: And that had to come all the way to Europe.
CB: Right.
AC: Mine was within two weeks.
KS: Yeah, I think it’s pretty quick.
CB: Fast turnaround time.
KS: Like if you were to order now, you would have it for January 1, comfortably.
CB: Yeah, definitely.
KS: Yeah, if you wanted it for the new year.
CB: So also a good gift, as long as you can get your person’s birth data.
KS: Yes.
CB: You need your birth date, time, place. You can customize it with whatever house system you wanna use. I set mine to whole sign, but you can pick Placidus or whatever. Yeah, so you can find out more information about that at honeycomb.co. And just look up their Personal Astrological Almanacs.
KS: Yeah. And I’m just gonna comment here on Kaitlin. Hi. Kaitlin is chatting here, and the questions are going back and forth. You can customize the timeframe. Like I actually had mine start for November of 2019. Cuz I ordered mine in October, and I wanted it to start the next month. So it doesn’t have to be a January-to-January-type thing.
CB: Right.
KS: If you want it to start on your birthday month and have it for 12 months, you can do that, too.
CB: Yeah, which is another one of the reasons why it’s a good gift for astrologers because then you can have it start on that person’s birthday if you want.
KS: Yeah, if you wanna do it for your profected year or what have you.
CB: Yeah, and either be a six-month increment or a 12-month increment.
KS: Totally.
CB: Cool.
KS: Thank you, Kait.
CB: Well, thanks to Honeycomb for sponsoring this episode of The Astrology Podcast. I appreciate it. That’s part of how we were able to bring Austin and Kelly out here this month and pay for their lodging while they’re staying here in Denver, which has been working out relatively well. Neither of you have been sleeping much.
KS: Oh, no. I’ve been sleeping great. Cuz I’m a little bit jet lagged, this is perfect for me. But it hasn’t been so good for you.
AC: No, I’ve had a hard time falling asleep. But it’s not the fault of the lodgings.
KS: No.
CB: Yeah. And I just remembered, before I move on, so I said earlier I am gonna do the calendars again. So this illustration or diagram that I have here right now—it shows the astrology of December—is actually from our yearly poster that shows the next 12 months ahead. So I’m gonna put the link on the description page for this episode where you can order that pretty soon. I’m hoping to have them for sale by either the end of November or early December.
KS: That’s fantastic.
AC: Nice.
KS: It’s so good to have the visual aids.
CB: Yeah, to be able to look up. I put it, usually, in my room, like right above my computer monitor, so I can just glance up and see exactly when the lunations take place, exactly when the ingresses take place, or when the planets will station retrograde. Like a Mercury retrograde station or even an outer planet station.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Yeah.
KS: It’s good to keep that in mind.
CB: Yeah. So you can find out more information about that. I think it’ll be at theastrologypodcast.com/2020posters.
KS: Fantastic.
CB: All right. Well, let’s transition then into talking about just some discussion topics for the rest of this episode. So we were trying to talk earlier this morning, at breakfast, about what’s been going on in the community, what people have been talking about. And what did we come up with? What do you guys wanna focus on?
KS: We talked about how old you have to be to be an astrologer.
CB: Yeah, so that was the big discussion. And we even did a podcast episode about that, which is the question of can you practice astrology prior to your Saturn return. And we did a whole thing, Leisa and I, where we went through all the nuances of that, and the answer was largely ‘yes’. But I wanted to ask you guys your personal stories about, like how young were you when you started studying astrology? And when did you begin practicing and seeing clients?
KS: Do you wanna go?
AC: Sure. I think I got into it when I was 19. And then I was at college. I went to a very small college. There were about 500 students on campus at a time. So I don’t know, I had like a hundred-and-some birth charts of people that were around everyday.
KS: Wow.
AC: And I don’t know if I would call them consultations, but I’d look at people’s charts with them. I did a lot of that. And I remember a couple of years in, I had a lot of people’s charts in my head. I’d be like, “Oh, yeah, blah, blah, blah seems pissed today. Oh, yeah, Mars is on top blah, blah, blah’s Moon right now.” I think by the time I was like 22-23, I would do consultations for 10 or 15 bucks. Or somebody could buy me General Tso’s chicken. That was an acceptable exchange.
KS: That was an acceptable exchange.
AC: So, I mean, that’s doing readings.
KS: Yeah, that is. And for like a trade, where there’s a value or an exchange going on.
AC: Yeah, yeah. And then after that, I would do readings. I remember I kicked my reading price up to 30 bucks after I graduated college.
CB: Fancy.
KS: That’s good.
AC: And then, I don’t know, I was just kind of doing readings, and the price went up a little bit, maybe up to 75 over the next couple of years. And I’d been writing a weekly column for maybe a year or so, and people just kept emailing me and wanting readings over the phone, so it just kind of turned into that.
KS: It just kind of organically was happening.
AC: And I didn’t wanna do other things that paid me money.
KS: You were happy to do that.
AC: So I was like, “Oh, maybe I’ll do this.”
KS: Okay.
AC: And so, yeah, it just kind of turned into a profession.
CB: You didn’t do it deliberately.
AC: Well, I mean, there were decisions along the way.
KS: Yeah.
AC: So let’s see. So from first realizing that astrology wasn’t fake, which was 19, to going full-time, was almost exactly nine years.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah.
CB: And when did you go ‘full’ full-time?
AC: On my 28th birthday.
CB: Okay.
AC: I was pretty much full-time leading up to that, when I was 27. But I made a commitment to not get another job. I was like, “You have to make this work.”
KS: Okay.
AC: Literally, Starbucks was part of this. I never worked at Starbucks, but I was like, “I can’t get a job at Starbucks.” And I almost had to six months in.
KS: Right.
AC: I was having a hard time paying rent, and I applied to Starbucks, but I got some astrology work and didn’t have to take the job at Starbucks.
KS: Oh, interesting.
CB: In the chat, your wife is saying: “Your last job was almost Starbucks, synchronistically, Chris.”
KS: Yeah.
CB: Nice.
KS: Oh, that’s very cool.
CB: And what about you, Kelly?
KS: I first started learning the basics of astrology when I was about 11. Just sort of self-taught at home, reading books. And after I finished high school, I was studying remedial massage therapy at a natural therapies college in Sydney, and they offered a course in astrology. And I remember I used to read Big Sky Astrology, April Elliott Kent’s blog, which was one of the first good-quality astrology blogs out there.
CB: Right.
KS: And I used to have to go to the local library and log on at the computer there—cuz now I’m really sort of showing my age—to read the internet and to read the posts on astro.com and stuff.
CB: What year is this, circa?
KS: Like 1999.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah, ‘89. Sorry, 1998-99-ish.
CB: Sure.
KS: Yeah, that would have been like just after high school. I probably just faffed around for a little while, not really doing anything of substance, and then thought I’d go and study massage, and they had an astrology course. And it just never occurred to me that you could take a course in astrology, so I signed up for that and studied with that teacher for a couple of years. And I was a little more structured compared to you, Austin, where I was like, “Right. I’m gonna start seeing clients. This is what I’m gonna charge.” And that happened on my second Jupiter return, actually, when I was about 23.
CB: 23.
KS: 23-and-a-half.
CB: That’s when you started charging and doing paid consultations.
KS: I had rented a room. I had like an office job, where I was working full-time. But I rented a room in like a chiropractic clinic across the street that I could see a client in. It was casual, if I had a client in the evening or a Saturday morning. And I charged $70 an hour for readings in the beginning.
AC: Okay, so quick question.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Where was Uranus relative to your Sun when you went pro?
KS: Great question. I would have to check my ephemeris.
AC: Cuz I went pro on Uranus’ conjunction to my Sun.
KS: Okay. Well, let’s checky-check.
AC: I think with you being born earlier—I think we both basically went pro with Uranus conjunct Sun.
KS: No. Uranus was still in Aquarius then. 2002.
AC: 2003?
KS: 2002.
AC: Well, so you turned 24 in 2003.
KS: It was before. I was still 23. Cuz it was very much on the Jupiter piece.
AC: Okay.
KS: Yeah.
AC: I was just curious.
KS: Yeah, yeah. I think what happened for me is that I spent most of my 20’s, shortly after that, gave up a corporate job, seeing clients. But, you know, it takes a while to build up. But I was also seeing clients with my massage therapy practice as well. So most of my 20’s, I sort of had two businesses running.
AC: When did you go full astrology?
KS: Hundred-percent astrology was Saturn return.
AC: Okay.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Okay. So both of you share that in common. And you were both born like super close together.
AC: A week apart.
KS: Yeah, a week.
CB: So you both started doing consultations earlier, in your 20’s. But then it was at the Saturn return when you were able to make the leap to doing astrology full-time.
KS: Exclusively.
AC: Yeah, it was about six months prior to Saturn’s ingress into Virgo for me. But it was in the year of my life in which Saturn would return.
KS: Right. Yeah, for me, I guess the massage was sort of there. But, you know, when I was about 26-27, I had been asked to teach a two-year astrology program at a natural therapies college in Sydney. So there was a real fullness already in my astrology practice. And the reason that I decided to go exclusive with astrology is I got to a point where I was working an insane amount of hours between the two jobs. Well, the two businesses, I guess. I needed to focus on one.
CB: Sure.
KS: Yeah.
CB: But both of you, obviously, it was also a passion by that point and something you were super interested in.
KS: Yeah, like a vocation, like in sort of the true sense of the word.
AC: Yeah.
KS: Devotion.
AC: I mean, I was interested in it, for what it was, years before I thought that that could be a job.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah.
AC: I mean, I had never known anyone who was an astrologer.
KS: No.
AC: And nobody’s teaching around me. So I was the only person into astrology that I knew of for most of that time.
KS: Yeah, wow.
CB: Right. When I invited you to come to Project Hindsight for that week-long conference they were having, was that the first time you had met other astrologers?
AC: Yeah, pretty much. There were like, literally, two or three other people at college who were kind of interested in it.
CB: Okay.
AC: But we didn’t have a club or anything. And we actually ended up disagreeing about everything. I don’t even remember why.
KS: There were lots of arguments?
AC: Well, just there was not a confluence of perspectives.
KS: Right.
AC: And so, we didn’t end up like talking about astrology.
KS: Okay.
AC: I didn’t have anybody to talk to about it, even when there was one or two other people within 10 miles or whatever.
KS: Wow. Yeah, that’s so different.
AC: I had one reading before I turned into a professional astrologer.
KS: Wow. Cuz the teacher that I studied with, she taught a couple of classes at this college, and then there were other workshops and courses that she ran out of her home. So there was a beautiful community of people that were there. I mean, I was living in Sydney at the time, and there was the New South Wales Astrology Association and things like that.
AC: I was living in a town of 5,000 in Ohio.
KS: Wow, okay.
AC: Which is where Dave Chappelle lived.
KS: That’s right. Okay, you were saying.
AC: It was early 2000s. He was just a super-tall dude who was just walking down the street. And he was the guy in the weed movie.
KS: In the weed movie. Oh, my gosh.
CB: So here’s a question. What would you do differently, if you could do it over again, in terms of that first 10 years and that transition from starting to learn astrology to starting to do consultations, and then eventually doing it full-time? Would you do anything differently?
AC: Okay, so a couple of things. It’s a little bit complicated.
CB: Yeah. Cuz one of the things that’s harder is the context is so much different today, and that’s what we were talking about earlier. There’s so many more resources and you can learn astrology quicker, potentially, nowadays with quality astrology than maybe you could when we came up.
AC: Yeah. So if I’d sought out classes, they would have been like a very hippie variant of modern. And I would have actually had to unlearn. I think I would have trained bad habits very deeply, that I would have had to undo. So I’m glad I didn’t do that.
CB: Sure.
AC: You know, I had books with the enduring fundamentals. This is the zodiac. This is a cardinal sign. It’s ruled by this. This is exalted there.
KS: Yes.
AC: You know, I just gnawed on those frameworks for years, and I think that was really good training. If there were today’s resources at my disposal, I’d take Chris’ class, and then I’d study with Kelly and maybe a few other people. Like I think that there’s an embarrassment of amazingly high-quality trainings available, so I probably would’ve chewed it up. You know, one of the things that happened to me during that quasi-professional period was that Chris invited me out to Project Hindsight. And so, I got the Hellenistic download via, I don’t know, eight hours of lecture a day and five hours of porch conversation a night. And that’s what I was working on integrating when I got back home. I was like, “Okay, take a few years to digest this.”
KS: To digest all that, yeah.
AC: And so, again, I don’t know that I could have done it differently based on where I was in the world. Somebody did point out Kepler to me right after I graduated from college. And I’m okay with not going to Kepler. I think it might have been good to go to Kepler, too.
KS: Yeah.
AC: But yeah, I don’t know.
CB: Well, and Kepler was different back then when I went to it in the mid-2000s compared to now. So Austin, you had that exposure, when you came out to Project Hindsight, to Hellenistic. And Kelly, we were talking, and you actually attended a conference, and that was your first exposure to traditional or Hellenistic astrology, right?
KS: Yeah, absolutely. Because the teacher I studied with in Sydney was fairly modern. She then became more interested in traditional astrology as that became more of a thing, and we used to have some conversations. She’s now died, passed on. But yeah, I went to a conference. I think it was 2004. So I had already started seeing my first few clients. There was a big astrology conference down in Melbourne. And I heard Lee Lehman, John Frawley, and Demetra George speak.
CB: Wow.
KS: And that was just absolutely eye-opening. It was what I’d been looking for. Cuz, you know, by that point, I was really proficient in the essentials, those enduring fundamentals, as you referred to them. But I had those questions that I think so many of us bring to traditional astrology, which is, why is that so? And where did that thing actually come from? And that’s part of my personality. I like to go back and figure out where it came from. So meeting those three astrologers was amazing. And at that point, I then did go on to study with John Frawley for a little while. And Demetra—I heard her speak on some of those core Hellenistic techniques. So that was a real introduction to that for me as well.
CB: Do you know what month that conference was?
KS: It would have been January. They’re always in January.
CB: January 2004?
KS: I think so, yeah.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah.
CB: That’s really interesting. Cuz it was like later that year that I reluctantly, famously, began the Hellenistic course with Demetra at Kepler in, I think it was December. November-December of 2004.
KS: Right.
CB: So it’s funny then we kind of got into—
KS: We connected with her around the same time.
CB: Yeah.
KS: That makes sense.
AC: So that was Uranus’ ingress into Pisces.
KS: Which makes sense. Cuz there is something that Chris and I share in our chart that’s in early Sag, yeah.
CB: Which is what? The midheaven?
KS: Mm-hmm.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KS: That is really interesting from a timing perspective. But I think what I would do differently, I mean, I wish that I would have had more money, like going to that conference, as a 23-or-24-year-old, with barely any money to rub together. I was crouch-surfing. Couch-surfing, sorry.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Crouch-surfing.
KS: Crouch-surfing.
AC: Not to be confused with crotch-surfing.
KS: Oh, God. I didn’t make it as bad as I could have.
CB: There was somebody that asked about that recently.
AC: Really? About that?
CB: In relation to the last episode—or one of the last episodes about accessibility of some of the stuff. And it can be tough if you’re younger and you don’t have a lot of money to get all of the books that you want, or all of the courses that you want. Or to get to the conferences, where it can be expensive to make it there.
KS: Yeah.
CB: And it is important, I think, to pay attention to that there are sometimes groups or organizations that try to create scholarships or try to make it easier. And I think all of us would get lucky occasionally and get a leg up by different things like that.
KS: Yeah. I mean, I had spoken at a conference in January 2008, in Sydney, and I had just finished my certification exams, which I didn’t do until after I was already a practicing professional in Australia. But I won a scholarship as a result of that, that helped me get to UAC in May of 2008.
CB: Okay.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Yeah. I mean, that first conference at Project Hindsight, I did like a work/trade thing, and I did that. Like Laura, Laura Nalbandian, who runs NORWAC, is very good. There are lots of opportunities to be a room monitor and run the recording equipment.
KS: And then not have to pay or get a reduced rate or what have you.
AC: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
CB: I was a room monitor, and I helped them set up the bookstore at my first NORWAC, Northwest Astrology Conference, as well as, I think, at my first ISAR conference. I sat in and helped record the talks.
KS: Wow.
CB: Yeah.
AC: Yeah. I don’t know if there’s a conference where there aren’t opportunities like that.
CB: Sure.
AC: It’s very consistent.
KS: Yeah. Because they do need volunteers to help them run the conference.
AC: Yeah. So if you wanna go to a conference, just find what they’re offering because they’re almost certainly offering something.
KS: And don’t be afraid to email one of the organizers and say that you’d like to come. You know, they’re very understanding of people in different financial positions. They will have an offering for you that is at a different price point or has the work/trade option.
CB: Or there’s organizations, like AFAN, the Association for Astrological Networking, that do scholarships or grant money and other things like that.
KS: Yeah. Laura does run a scholarship program through NORWAC as well, actually.
CB: All right. So that’s one thing. Just being aware and looking for opportunities that might be available.
KS: Yeah.
CB: There’s also so much more. I see somebody in the chat. I think Kaitlin Coppock is saying there’s so many more free resources now. There’s so much more you can take advantage of, just looking around and being aware of all the different things
AC: That’s hard, though.
KS: It’s hard to discern.
AC: There’s more. There’s more bad and there’s more good. There’s more mediocre. There’s more of every grade.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And the thing is once you get a handle on it, then you have an eye for quality and it’s easy. But you have a little Catch-22. You have to get a handle on it before you can get an eye for it.
CB: Yeah. So maybe one of the challenges is to try to get as much of a cross-section and an overview of the different approaches and different traditions early on, so you just know what the field looks like. And then you can go in and specialize in either the approach that speaks to you or the approach that seems to be more reliable, whatever that means to you.
AC: Yeah. And I would grade astrologers and astrology based on what it says on the label. If they say they can do this and their astrology can do this, and they can do that, then that’s a passing grade.
KS: Yeah.
AC: If they say that if you do it this way, it does this, and it really doesn’t work, then whatever.
KS: Don’t go down that road.
AC: You know, you don’t need to grade a psychological technique on whether it predicts when your career blooms, and vice versa. But, you know, grade it as it’s labeled.
CB: I mean, I like that, and that’s true, but there’s also another side of that. Sometimes if you’re still just learning something, and if you’re relatively early in your studies, you may not know how to use it yet. And I’ve seen especially with more complex or complicated techniques, like zodiacal releasing, people running into that issue of misunderstanding the technique. Like attempting to apply it and applying it wrong, basically, and then concluding that it doesn’t work.
AC: Yeah, I was suggesting looking at the astrologer’s works, and they say, “Oh, my techniques can do this,” and then see how they demonstrate that. And of course they should work for you, too. You know, I think zodiacal releasing is probably the technique that takes the longest to obtain proficiency in, cuz it has a different feeling. It has a very uniquely-technical calculation. And so, some you can pick up. You can pick up annual profections pretty quickly.
KS: Pretty quickly.
AC: But if you don’t spend the time getting to know zodiacal releasing on its own terms, you will expect it to do things that it doesn’t, and you will not see what it is doing.
CB: Sure.
AC: I see people making errors—making exactly that kind of error of expectation.
KS: With that technique.
AC: And also, trying to bring technical considerations that are valid for other techniques into zodiacal releasing and then being mad that they don’t work.
CB: Sure.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So another thing we were talking about in terms of the accelerated rate of learning astrology is still the question that you run into occasionally, where sometimes people rush into doing things too quickly. While I wanna encourage people to certainly not put off starting to do consultations and reading charts for people—cuz that’s an important part of the learning process—too long, so that it hurts your growth as an astrologer, there can be a potential danger, also, of doing it prematurely, I think we were talking about earlier.
AC: Oh, yeah.
KS: Yeah.
AC: There’s a lot there. One thing I will say is that there is a meaningful difference between knowledge and skill.
KS: Yeah.
AC: You can know how to do a technique, and you can have memorized everything written about it, but that knowledge needs to become skill.
KS: Yes.
AC: And that’s through practice. Experience with clients, with your own chart, with the chart of dead people, living people, everybody.
KS: Yes.
AC: Knowledge, in astrology at least, is one of the necessary requirements for skill, but knowledge by itself is not skill.
KS: Yes.
AC: It needs to become skill.
KS: Yeah, that’s a beautiful point. I know there’s a lot of good-quality information out there. It’s very easy to fast-track learning the facts or learning the techniques. But I do think there’s still a level of some time required to have that knowledge become a skill internally, but also, to have you grapple with it and mull it over and kind of take the knowledge into your belly or into your body, so that it’s not just the memorized, brain knowledge of a technique. It’s something that you’ve pulled into the belly of your being. So, I mean, the recommendation I usually give to students of whatever age is pick a teacher whose work and style you resonate with and commit to studying with them for a minimum of two years. So sort of take everything that they have to offer, go through all the motions. Learn the basics. Learn some of the timing techniques that they offer, if they teach relationship astrology, whatever, some of those extras. You know, you might need longer than two years, but I think there’s something almost saying, “I’m gonna give myself an apprenticeship opportunity in this.” And then with the guidance of your teacher, you may then be ready to start seeing clients in an apprenticeship-style way, perhaps for a reduced rate. But if you have studied with a particular teacher for a period of time, you will have learned a method that you can take forward with you. You don’t have to be loyal to that for the rest of your practice. In fact, I encourage you not to be. I think it is good to be diverse and study with different teachers. But when you’re getting started, or you wanna get anchored, it is good to have some consistency, so that you don’t get overwhelmed and try to do too many things.
AC: I think there are at least two or three amazing points in that. One, I like two years.
KS: I don’t know why, yeah.
AC: So I just got done with a two-year Vedic program, and I’m just getting done with teaching my first two-year program.
KS: Right. Okay.
AC: So I hear you on ‘two years’. And I feel like pretty much everybody in year two is like ready to be unleashed.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Some of them are already professionals. But it does seem like a very ripe point.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And I have a million things to learn about Jyotish, but I feel pretty deeply competent. Like I know what I know, what I don’t know. I can go through it. I’ve got experience with all the techniques. There was something else that you said that I wanted to respond to. I’ll probably come back to it.
KS: Okay.
CB: I mean, one of the things about studying either with a teacher for an extended period of time, or at least just studying everything that they have available is being able to be reconnected with a wisdom or a mastery tradition of a lineage.
KS: Yeah.
CB: But there’s things that come with that. Cuz what you get from books, if you just take a little bit from books, you read a book, or you read a bunch of different books, you get a sort of surface-level knowledge. But when you study somebody’s entire system, you get their approach, which includes a lot of the learned wisdom that they gained from however many years of practice they’ve been doing, that they’ll sort of drop in little bits and pieces throughout their works and different places, and might be summarized all in just their book.
KS: Yeah.
CB: But yeah, there’s some part of that that can be useful.
AC: Oh, yeah. Generally speaking, whenever we’re looking at extremely high levels of skill, when you have a generational continuity of skill, that’s where you get the best whatever it is. The best cheese. You know, it’s that place in Italy that’s been making that cheese for 400 years.
KS: Yes.
AC: Even in martial arts. Even in the rough-and-tumble world of mixed martial arts, which is very innovative, a lot of the people who end up being champions, it’s like, “Oh, yeah, my dad was a boxer, and his dad was a boxer, and I brought that into this.” I remember what I was gonna respond to, Kelly, about valuing a diversity of training and approach, while at the same time recognizing that you need to focus on one approach at a time in order to learn and obtain skill. You know, I’ve thought a lot about that with going heavy into Vedic astrology. If I did that, while at the same time as I was trying to go heavy into Hellenistic, I would have learned neither.
KS: Correct. You would have been confused and jumbled. And you would have been trying to put your apples together with your oranges and it would have been a hot mess.
AC: I’ve literally had 12 years to let the Hellenistic sink in and do, I don’t know, a thousand consultations using those methods. And so, that Jell-o has set.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And then I was like, “Okay, now I’m going to do this other thing.” And it’s not that this is better than that or whatever, but one thing at a time.
KS: Yes. That’s one thing I see with students all the time, is this idea of trying to do too much at once. And it becomes overwhelming, and it becomes distracting and scattering. And it’s not to say that you can’t learn all the things that you wanna learn, but you will have to put them in a sequence and learn one thing at a time.
AC: Yeah, yeah. And with one teacher at a time would be the ideal.
KS: Would be the ideal. It’s not that I want to slow people down. It’s just that, as you made in such an eloquent point, Austin, reading something doesn’t mean that you know it. And sometimes even taking a class on a topic once doesn’t mean that you know either. Learning is an active process. And one that I just was thinking about with my students this week is that you come to a class, you’re listening to information. There might be some reading material provided, so you read that material. Both of those things are about input. Learning requires some sort of active output as well, whether that is a written homework exercise or a conversation about the topic. So you have to kind of really be in with the material, if you like, to learn it.
AC: It’s a dialogue with it.
KS: You do have to dialogue with it. You have to try and speak from it, or be heard from it, or have those practice sessions with clients or what have you. And so, I think all of these things are the type of guidance, that if you’re in a class with a teacher, you get some support around.
CB: Yeah, definitely. And also, sometimes having an in-person connection. I know that you went to that intensive of Demetra’s just recently, right?
KS: Yeah, yeah. That was amazing. And I got a lot out of that. There was a lot of stuff that I did know about planetary condition, but there were still nuances that I took in, things that I knew, but are now even deeper, embedded within me.
AC: And I think that sets a really good example. Because you don’t need to study with someone else to be a successful professional astrologer.
KS: You don’t, yeah.
AC: Like you can still learn from other people, even if you’re big and fancy and on The Astrology Podcast every month.
KS: I don’t know about big and fancy.
AC: You know, it doesn’t mean that there’s nothing to learn from Demetra just cuz you’re good.
KS: And one thing I realized as I reflected on this year that has been is that I haven’t had an opportunity for professional development the last few years, and I’ve really missed it. And in every other industry, it’s compulsory to maintain your registration and licensing that you do a certain amount of professional development every year.
CB: Sure.
KS: And so, I was like, “Yeah.” And Demetra’s also kind of in a period in her career where there limits to how much longer she’ll be teaching and things like that, which she has expressly stated publicly already. So that put a bit of fire up me.
CB: Sure. And it also speaks to, a little bit, the value of meeting up with people in person, which is why we’re always hyping conferences, but also, local astrology groups, and also, sometimes making friends with other astrologers, often, initially, online, but then eventually meeting up in person. And we’ve been having a good time this week and have had lots of conversations that we might not have if we were just distant all the time.
AC: Oh, yeah, definitely.
KS: Absolutely. I was talking to, I don’t know, somebody on my WhatsApp chat. A friend or my husband, I’m not sure. And I’m like, “I’m so enjoying being here, as much for the podcasting that we’re doing.” But I said, “But I’m also really enjoying the dinners afterwards.” We go out and we chat.
AC: I’m looking forward to dinner.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
AC: I wanna go back to the steak place, maybe tomorrow.
KS: Tomorrow.
AC: Maybe tonight, I don’t know. I really liked the steak place.
KS: We had some really good Italian last night.
CB: Well, we had to cut it off. Cuz that’s one of the problems is this is a work trip, but then we’re staying up late chatting all night.
KS: We still have to get sleep.
AC: We haven’t stayed up very late.
CB: Yeah. Well, we haven’t done our episode of ‘The Drunk Astrology Podcast’ yet.
KS: Oh, my Lord. I was hoping you’d forget about that.
CB: Yeah. Well, we’ll see. We’ll see what happens. Tomorrow’s actually the big day.
KS: Tomorrow’s the big day. Yeah, we’re doing the year ahead.
CB: The forecast for the entire year ahead for 2020.
AC: Maybe we could do a drunk Q&A.
CB: Yeah. Well, so Monday right now is our planned Q&A.
KS: I mean, I could have one drink and do that, maybe.
AC: But that’s not fun. It’s like, “Oh, Kelly’s slightly relaxed.”
KS: I had drinks with you recently.
AC: That’s not what the people want, Kelly.
KS: You’re like, “This is more fun.” We’ll see. We’ll see what happens on Monday.
AC: They want you to slur your words. “Let me tell you what I really think—”
KS: I could never do that. I could never do that.
AC: “—about fucking Aquariuses.”
KS: For those Aquarius risings.
CB: Aside from those experiences, there’s also—
AC: Come to conferences. You will have those experiences.
KS: That’s true.
AC: Please go on.
CB: So it can sometimes modify your technical approach, to meet other astrologers.
KS: Yes.
CB: I think this has always been true in history. You put two astrologers in a room together, at any point in history, no matter what time period or cultures they come from, they’re gonna start talking to each other and they’re gonna start comparing techniques.
KS: Absolutely.
CB: And that’s gonna rub off on each other in some ways that are unexpected, but often, interesting. And that’s pretty much the history of astrology and the transmission of astrology. Just what happens when you put two astrologers from either different approaches or the same approach together in a room and what comes out of that. There’s always something that comes out of that.
KS: There’s an alchemical. The light bulbs might not get changed, but there’s new techniques.
AC: A sharing and a refinement of differentiation.
CB: Right.
AC: You’re like, “Oh, okay. So when you do exactly the same technique, you emphasize this. You privilege this over that. Whereas I tend to treat this as more important.”
CB: Right.
KS: Yeah.
AC: It makes me think of martial arts. Like there are certain basic techniques that are just like that’s how the human body can hit.
KS: Yeah.
AC: And as I’ve spent more and more time with, let’s say, a roundhouse, I could show you 30 different variations.
KS: Okay.
AC: Or it’s like, okay, the weight is slightly over here. There’s a little bit more of a swing through. This is a kick and a step. And this one, it replaces. This is more of a whip. This is more of a bat. But from the outside, it looks like the same technique.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Well, and even more specifically, we encountered some of this yesterday when we did our recording here, our two-part series on the houses.
KS: Yes.
CB: In some instances, we had very similar takes on the houses, in other instances, we sometimes emphasized things a little bit differently. And I think you mentioned this last night over dinner, like afterwards, that there were certain things—how we were talking about certain houses—that you found interesting in some way.
AC: Oh, yeah. Well, it’s really the 6/12-interactions are really interesting. They naturally just share things that are a bummer.
KS: That’s a good summary.
AC: Sorting the different things that are a bummer.
KS: Yes, the specific things.
AC: What is really shared, and then what is probably more over here? I actually had a thought about that this morning. So we were talking about enemies, right?
KS: Yes.
CB: You and I had a disagreement about whether to assign ‘enemies’ to the 12th house. Which I said, “Yes, enemies, 12th house,” and you said, “No, 12th house is self-undoing.”
AC: No. I said you could find enemies there, but primarily, I would go 6th.
CB: You said it a little bit more strongly than that.
KS: Everyone will have to go check out that episode.
AC: Anyway, I had a thought about that. The thought about it was I think that, one, ‘enemies’ is a big word, right? Any conscious actor that is contrary to you, or wants something bad for you will qualify, or wants something in competition with you qualifies as an enemy. And I think the logic behind the 12th is it’s ‘bad spirit’. Those who wish you ill, right?
KS: Yes.
AC: Cuz you can find authors, in traditional texts, on 12th and 6th. With 6th, it’s ‘bad fortune’, those who are physically working against you.
KS: So it’s the physical versus the mental. This is like a follow-up to yesterday.
AC: Yeah.
CB: Although, it’s funny. That episode—or no. That episode will come out after. Cuz houses 1-6 will be released before this one.
AC: Gotta wait.
CB: Gotta wait until early next month. We’ll release houses 7-12, and you’ll hear the 12th house discussion.
KS: Yes.
AC: But yeah, that was my thought. I was like, okay, so if we sort it into the traditional titles of ‘bad spirit’ and ‘bad fortune’, we can have those which are working against you in a more physically-demonstrable way and those who are maybe saying things or intending you badly, but without some 6th house connection, are not going to be able to damage your money or body.
KS: Okay.
CB: Yeah, I could sort of get onboard with that. But sometimes words can be just as damaging, in some instances, as punching somebody in the face.
AC: Yeah, yeah. I agree about words.
CB: Sure.
AC: But you can have haters, but they don’t do anything.
CB: Oh, yeah, that was Patrick’s signification.
AC: The 12th was ‘haters’.
CB: Was haters, okay.
KS: I’m sure it was haters, yeah.
AC: But like a hater and an enemy that you have to contend with, there’s a meaningful differentiation.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Anyway.
CB: Were there any post-house things that we could touch on or should touch on? I realize we only released half of that episode by now. Did you guys have any thoughts after we closed that down yesterday?
AC: Just that one.
KS: No. I’m really excited for people to hear those episodes and see what they think of them.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Okay, cool.
AC: Oh, I guess I did think that—no, never mind. I was just thinking about our discussion of large animals being dangerous.
KS: Oh, the large animal piece, yeah, with the 12th house. Okay. Okay.
AC: They hate you.
KS: They hate you. Is that why they’re dangerous?
AC: Yeah.
KS: Yeah. Okay.
CB: Final recommendations, though, astrologers practicing astrology in their 20’s, yes or no?
KS: I would say it’s not about your age. It’s about how much exposure and experience with the material you’ve had. And I usually throw that two-year on, but, I mean, it’s not a hard-and-fast rule. So I’m less concerned with whether you’re 21 or 45, but more concerned that you’ve had some substantial structured training, and you’ve got that to go forward with.
AC: Yeah, I think it’s important not to conflate age and experience.
KS: Yeah.
AC: Age and experience do have a natural relationship, but they are not identical.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Got it.
KS: I mean, I started seeing clients at 23, and I would not prevent someone else who had training to do that either.
CB: Sure.
KS: Yeah.
CB: Okay, cool. All right, guys. I think that’s it for this episode of The Astrology Podcast, and for this forecast for December. Thanks for joining me today. This was a lot of fun. It’s a little different than being in little Zoom boxes most of the time, you guys actually flying out here and being in person.
KS: I like this a lot.
CB: Thank you.
KS: I don’t think we have the budget to do it every month, but I’m glad we did it this month.
CB: Yeah. Well, people have to let us know what they thought of it, and if they enjoyed it, and if we should do it again, maybe next year for the next year ahead forecast or something.
KS: Yeah, let us know. Just because I enjoyed it doesn’t mean anyone else will.
CB: Right.
KS: Yeah. Could just be us.
AC: Yeah, I liked it. I think people will probably like it.
KS: Yeah.
AC: If you wanna see this next year, send Chris money, so he can buy more comfortable chairs for Kelly and I.
CB: That was the only thing I messed up. They’re okay chairs if you sit in them for like an hour or two. But if you’re sitting here for like three days straight, for six-hour podcasts, then it gets a little much.
KS: Just a little. I mean, we’re fit. We’ll do stretching. But yes, sign up to be Chris’ Patreon.
CB: All right. Yeah, people should sign up to Patreon anyway, cuz that’s part of how I wanna start flying more people out here to do interviews in person, here in the studio, for exactly that reason. Partially, to torture them by sitting them in the chairs, but also—
KS: To look them in the eye.
CB: Yeah.
KS: Yes.
CB: Yeah, so you can find out more information about that at theastrologypodcast.com/subscribe. Leisa just texted me and reminded me that we forgot to mention that we’re about to put out—we did this last year, but we’re gonna do it again this year and put out a Year Ahead Electional Report. We do the monthly podcast, but people are always asking us for elections much further down the road for the year ahead. So we’re about to release a report—which I’ll link to probably in the description page for this episode, on the podcast website—that’ll give the one, single electional chart for each of the 12 months of 2020. And it’ll be the best chart we can find for that month, so that people—if you need to plan a little bit more long-term—can have something.
KS: That’s really helpful. Now you guys did that last year. That would have been a great resource for people.
CB: Yeah, it was super popular last year, and people really seemed to love it. So we’re gonna do it again this year, and we’re gonna get it out in the next couple of weeks.
KS: Fantastic.
AC: Very nice.
CB: Cool. All right, guys. Well, that’s it for this episode of The Astrology Podcast. Thanks to all of our patrons who joined us in the live chat today, and who attended the live recording of this episode through the webinar. We appreciate it. Thanks for all of the comments and everything. We’re gonna do it again tomorrow for the year ahead forecast.
KS: Yes.
CB: Yeah, so that’s it for this episode of The Astrology Podcast. So thanks for watching or listening, and we will see you again next time.
KS: Next time. Bye, everyone.
[credits]
Thanks to the patrons and sponsors who helped to support the production of this episode of the podcast through our page on Patreon.com, including patrons Christine Stone and Nate Craddock, as well as the Astro Gold Astrology App, available at Astrogold.io, the Portland School of Astrology, at PortlandAstrology.org, the Honeycomb Collective Personal Astrological Almanacs, at Honeycomb.co, and also, the International Society for Astrological Research, which is hosting an astrology conference in Denver, Colorado, September 10-14, 2020, and you can find out more information about that at ISAR2020.org. And the Northwest Astrological Conference, which is happening in Seattle, May 21-25, 2020, and you can find out more information about that at NORWAC.net. For more information about how to sign up to become a patron of the podcast, go to Patreon.com/AstrologyPodcast.