The Astrology Podcast
Transcript of Episode 482, titled:
Chinese Astrology
With Chris Brennan and Berna Lee
Episode originally released on March 10, 2025
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Note: This is a transcript of a spoken word podcast. If possible, we encourage you to listen to the audio or video version, since they include inflections that may not translate well when written out. Our transcripts are created by human transcribers, and the text may contain errors and differences from the spoken audio. If you find any errors then please send them to us by email: theastrologypodcast@gmail.com
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Transcribed by Teresa “Peri” Lardo
Transcription released April 3rd, 2025
Copyright © 2025 TheAstrologyPodcast.com
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CHRIS BRENNAN: Hey. My name is Chris Brennan, and you’re listening to The Astrology Podcast. Joining me today is astrologer Berna Lee, and we’re gonna be talking about Chinese astrology.
Hey, Berna. Thanks for joining me.
BERNA LEE: Thanks for having me, Chris. Thank you so much.
CB: Yeah. I’m super excited to do this episode today. I’ve wanted to do an episode on Chinese astrology for a long time, and I actually just did one on the I Ching with Benebell Wen a few months ago in September. And I recently saw that you were teaching a course on Chinese astrology through the Sophia Centre, and I thought you would be a great person to do this interview with, so yeah. Thanks a lot for joining me.
BL: Thank you. My course right now at the Sophia Centre, it’s called “Cosmic Connections: An Introduction to Chinese Cultural Astronomy and Astrology.” So in the class, I will – actually, it just started last week, so we are talking a lot about the history – like, when it started and the development and about Mandate of Heaven a little bit, touch on that too, and also about occult practice and how what is it like in the contemporary times as well.
CB: Amazing. Yeah. It’s incredible. Like, the course outline looks super comprehensive. So since this is your first time on the show, I wanted to ask you a little bit about your background and training and like, where you come from in terms of astrology. Yeah. So how did you get started, or what’s your background in this topic?
BL: So I am the 45th generation in my lineage. I’m from the Tang dynasty royal Lees family; it’s called Wong Jim in Chinese Cantonese, actually. I am from Hong Kong. Not like, in ancient times I wasn’t from Hong Kong; like, my mother’s city was in Hong Kong. But I was born and raised in Hong Kong, and my family, for generations, they have been doing research on astrology because of our family background in the Tang royal family. We also have some classics, some of the books, that are passed on from generations through generations. And our teacher from Tang dynasty was the Tang royal astrologer, Yang Junsong in Mandarin. And so there are a lot of teachings from him. A lot of research from accumulated that we also have passed on in our practices.
And so for me, it’s more like it ran in the family that people in our family not necessarily are astrologers, but like my grandfather, he built like, a community for astrologers at the time, and they do research on the classics that we have at home. And so he did a lot of research and wrote a lot of books until he came to Hong Kong in the ‘50s or ‘60s. Yeah, I think ‘50s or ‘60s, when there was a cultural revolution and wars and all that broke out. And so for me, I grew up with my grandparents, and my – I was basically sitting next to him when he was doing some astrology work when he was older, because I was at home and he was at home, and I was playing around with his books and like, the divination, like the tortoise shells, and like, he would do all kinds of things with like, different divinations and chart reading with the clients. And so like, that’s how I grew up. And astrology, it’s kind of like a language at home for us too. Like, my father and my uncles, a lot of them are male – like, men does astrology in our family, and I’m probably the first woman who is doing this. And I’m excited! And I am so happy to be able to join you and to teach the class, and this is amazing.
CB: That’s incredible. I mean, that’s, you know, in ancient times, it seemed like a lot of different cultures had lineages of astrologers that ran through families, but in more recent times it’s not as common in the West to be able to learn directly from a family member, let alone having like, that many generations of astrologers going that far back. So that’s a really actually like, unique position to be in, I feel like, compared to other astrologers that I’ve known in other traditions. And you’ve actually now are in college and you’re working on a degree; you’ve done a master’s thesis —
BL: Yes.
CB: — on contemporary views on Chinese astrology, right?
BL: Yes. It was a study, an examination towards the work practices and the world views of contemporary Chinese astrologers. And I also interviewed them with how their views on fate and free will might have influence on their work or on their lives, like in their lives, and I had some semi-structured interview that is more in-depth, and I was talking to some of the professional astrologers who have 20 plus years experiences in the field, and it was an interesting time to really talk to them and get to know how they work with their own experience involved.
CB: Yeah. And so you’ve gotten it sort of from both worlds in terms of both knowing the practical lineage of astrology and how it’s practiced by contemporary practitioners, but also studying it in an academic context as well so that you have a pretty rich background in the history also, right?
BL: Yes. And for history, I think – I was a fine art major, and I did a lot of antique restoration for my background. So like, I do have the interest and some of the background information about Chinese history mostly because I’ve done a lot of work specifically on pottery in Tang dynasty and Han dynasty and Qin dynasty. So that kind of helps me, and I have the interest in Chinese history, and with my grandfather always talking about it, gives me a good foundation to look into history in the context of Chinese astrology. Yeah. In the class, I did summarize it in a way that it’s in the context of Chinese astrology when we’re talking about history.
CB: Awesome. Okay. Well, let’s talk about that. I’d like to talk about the history of Chinese astrology and what are its origins, where did it come from, and what are the different eras or periods in terms of just broadly speaking how you might define it?
BL: Yeah. So in the legendary times in the Fuxi era when we are talking about Chinese astrology, it was started probably from that era, from Fuxi, when he was trying to observe the natural phenomena. And in the legend, they said he picked up like, a stick and then drew one line across when he was looking at the skyline. And that one line kind of like, divided into yin and yang. And then we have the four directions. And, you know, in those times, like, in the Fuxi legendary times, it was more like what concerned them was the natural phenomena like the thunder, the wind, the water, and fire. And so in that sense, from the four directions, he also put identified the eight trigrams with eight natural phenomena on each of the directions. And then gradually after he was divided the directions into the eight different positions, we also generated the 64 hexagram for later use. And so it was through the legendary times, and if you were talking about archaeological evidence and when it started, it was probably started some time in the Stone Age of 6th millennium BCE around that time that we do see a lot of carvings – like, stone carvings – in this place in China that I did talk about it last week in class, and that we can see like, the Sun and the Moon and some of the stars, especially the 28 lunar mansions. It wasn’t like, all in it, but then you can see there are symbols, like with a tiger and the dragon. The dragon on the left-hand side and the tiger on the right. And then we have the phoenix and the red bird in front of us, and then the back – it’s the north pole, represent the north pole [speaking Chinese] the Dipper. So there were these kind of symbols early on from the 6th millennium BCE to the 4th millennium BCE from cliff drawings to the ancient tomes that we can see all these symbolism of the heaven and earth with the drawings. So yeah, I would say that it started at those times when people were really observing how nature was interacting with us human and earthly realm.
CB: Okay. That makes sense. And so that’s super far back, so that’s like, 5,000 BCE through three or 4,000 BCE. And then eventually in terms of getting to more recent times, when does there start being like, a textual evidence of like, a textual tradition for astrology? I know in like, Mesopotamia for example, we don’t see that until maybe 2,000 BCE forward because they were writing on clay tablets that survive. At what point did there start being a textual tradition as far as surviving evidence in the Chinese tradition?
BL: So with textual, with actual Chinese characters, the [speaking Chinese] characters, the earliest characters in China, it was started in 1675 BCE in Shang dynasty. So in Shang dynasty, there were oracle bones, and from the oracle bones, we can detect the different characters. And these characters, they actually developed from pictures like a pictograph. So you can see sometimes it’s, say for example, the word of “ming,” which is fate in English. In this particular character, you can see there is a triangular shape on top, and then underneath it, you see a person kneeling on the earth. So that also tells us about the figure of a person when they are thinking about fate or ming – what is there, like, in the ancient times in Shang dynasty, 1675 BCE, their idea of what fate is about. It’s like, heaven with mouth, and then a person, a human being, on the ground kind of like, kneeled underneath it. That sort of relationship that was being portrayed at the time. So in Shang dynasty, we can see there started to have a lot of characters coming up, and we see that in the dynasty before that – in Xia dynasty – that was the first time that people started to use the ganzhi system, the branch and stem system, to calculate. Like, that is the basic foundations of Chinese astrology; it’s like a common language in Chinese astrology, in Chinese medicine, in alchemy, in all of those areas that this is the common basic so-called alphabet to know. And so from Xia dynasty, it’s called Xia calendar. And Xia calendar right now in the modern times, we call it the yellow calendar or the yellow emperor calendar, because the emperor in Xia dynasty, it’s the yellow emperor. That’s why we’re still addressing this calendar or the farmer’s almanac as the Xia calendar or the yellow emperor calendar.
So textually, coming back, textually it’s from Shang dynasty with archeological evidence of how they record the celestial phenomenon and the terrestrial happenings. It was from Shang. But if you were talking about when they started to use the ganzhi system, the sexagenary cycles, it was back in Xia dynasty. So that was probably 2698 BCE in Xia dynasty. Yes. And since then, yeah, people kind of like, use it for bureaucratic purposes started at around the time.
CB: Okay. So yeah. So I guess that becomes important is that the type of astrology that develops by that point and going forward over the next thousand years until you get to the Han dynasty was a type of what I guess historians call “mundane astrology,” right? Where it applies to large groups of people or to the nation or to the emperor.
BL: That’s a great question. I wouldn’t say that it’s just started from Han dynasty. However, Han dynasty was an important dynasty for Chinese astrology because it was the earliest time when Chinese astrology was being categorized into different categories, the use of them.
I was gonna talk about this in the second class, which is tomorrow, that in Han dynasty, this book compiled by the historian called [speaking Chinese] or [speaking Cantonese] in Cantonese – my mother tongue – actually I feel more comfortable when speaking in – [speaking Cantonese]. So [speaking Cantonese], meaning “the seven strategies,” and in Han dynasty, the royal historian collected all of the text from Qin dynasty and started to recreate the categories, the Chinese astrology categories, into the classics, the philosophy, and then there are some of proses and poems and Chinese astrology for fate and for divination. And then there’s also Feng Shui, called shapes and forms. Like, there are seven categories in total. But the basics one that I think it’s more important, it’s this category called “Calculations and Methods,” because that is the most basic things that everyone has to understand before they can jump into the applications of it. So Han dynasty was important because it was the time when Chinese astrology started to be in different categories. Before that, I would say that there are a couple of different times that Chinese astrology developed in different ways. After [speaking Chinese] that we just talked about earlier with the [speaking Chinese] characters, the earliest Chinese characters, appeared in Shang dynasty, in Zhou dynasty, it was when I Ching came about. And in I Ching, for divination, people didn’t really just make use of the… They were trying to not just use the oracle bones, but using the 64 hexagram and combining with the oracle to do the divination, and also using some of the yellow – what do you call that?
CB: Oh, yarrow stalks?
BL: Yarrow stalks, yes – I’m trying to think about the English name of it – to do divination. So that was also a part of an important times in Chinese astrology. And then right after that coming to the Spring and Autumn era and the Warring State period, it was very colorful, because there was the Hundred Schools of Thoughts. There were, like, philosophers like Laozi, like Confucian, like Legalism, like Mohism. Like, there a lot of philosophers came up, and they started to debate about what kind of ways shall we strategize these wars or what kind of – who shall I be supporting for this Mandate of Heaven? Like, how are we going to read the skies? Like, read the terrestrial phenomenon? So there were a lot of debates, a lot of discussions, and a lot of smaller kingdoms trying to fight against each other with all these techniques that they see from the sky and also they read from the terrestrial.
CB: And this is all in like, the first millennium BCE? Like, 1,000 BCE to like, 300 BCE, right?
BL: Spring and Autumn era and Warring State period would be 403 to 221 BCE, around that period of time. And there were also texts excavated of the first sighting of the comet Halley with illustrations and also with what they represent. And also there were some of the excavated piece like this lacquered cushion, or it looks like an ancient cushion, but it might be a suitcase too – like, a small lacquered case – with the drawings of the 28 lunar mansions, and also the [speaking Chinese] the Dipper. Like, the whole Chinese cosmos, like the sky, illustrated on the lacquered piece. And it was an interesting time where scholars, astrologers, arose. In these times of constant, constant wars and chaos, people tried to find a way to have some stability at the time.
CB: That makes sense. So that was a point that you talked about in your master’s thesis in your dissertation where you pointed out that astrology is not in isolation in China, but it’s like, arising within the context of on the one hand, you have the emergence of the I Ching like you mentioned as a form of divination. But also you have the different religions and philosophies that were developed during that time as well as other medical and occult practices that were developed as well, and all of these are interconnected in different ways.
BL: Yes. So the religions came after, probably became more popular and kind of mixed with astrology during Tang dynasty. And from then on,t here were also a lot of different schools that arose. For example, the Buudhist astrology, and there are a lot of astro magic that came about when there were a lot more diverse culture that was introduced in China at the time. But before that, it was more like Chinese root astrological knowledge that we have accumulated from nature, from phenomenon, and yes. I’m sorry, I just forgot your question as I was…
CB: Oh, just that there was – I guess on one hand that Chinese astrology was partially arising in the context of other divinatory and occult practices, but also then during that period in the first millennium BCE that some of the classic religious and other philosophical texts that are commonly associated —
BL: Yes.
CB: — with Chinese culture were also arising as well?
BL: Yes. So that’s a great question. Because it started because first of all in what we just talked about in Warring State period, at the end of Warring State period when this particular kingdom – Qin dynasty – won all of the kingdoms, he was the first person to unite China into one piece. Like, one country, so-called, at the time. And so Qin Shi Huang, it’s the first emperor of China, and he decided that all of these like, five element progression for dynastic succession – like, these theories of five elements, it’s not what he wants, because it actually affect his stability for power. So he wants to have a morality by having this persecution of scholars and astrologers and burning of a lot of books at the time to kind of stop these kind of knowledge to spread and pass onto generations after. And at the time, he was trying to reestablish this cosmic parallelism in the Chinese cosmology by putting himself in along with the dipper around at the Purple Temple Palace in the section like, right at the north pole in the center. So it’s almost like immovable however you are revolving around him. Like, it is almost like immovable. And that’s how he tried to reestablish himself as the center of the pole, as the center on earth, and also as an equivalent of this supural lord in the sky.
After that, in Han dynasty, they – Han Gaozu and a lot of other people and astrologer especially – was also helping him to kind of to establish the Mandate of Heaven that he was the one who we support. And that is why the five elements and all of these dynastic succession theories came about again and to support himself in getting the throne and the Mandate of Heaven. And then when he established himself as the king, as the Han dynasty emperor, the first emperor of Han dynasty, he again in the history, like, there is other. Like, Sima Qian was also like, writing about the celestial phenomenon, what happened at the time with the planetary parade, and that facilitate the whole thing to have this new era to emerge. And so it wasn’t from Sima Qian, I should say that it wasn’t him who wrote that; it was 300 years later, three centuries later, after Han Gaozu, this other historian called Zhang Heng wrote about these celestial phenomenon. Zhang Heng was also a royal astrologer, and he was also a historian, one of the historian and inventor, of Han dynasty, and he was writing about dating back to Han Gaozu to write about the celestial phenomenon. So sometimes these things are very institutionalized in a way if you’re talking about the celestial officials and all of these how you read the skies, how you read the stars. A lot of times it is so institutionalized that it’s great to know the background information about it. But when we’re reading it, it is also important to have a basic foundation of what they are, they were like before these times of filtering, of imperialism.
CB: Makes sense. So yeah. So that seems like a really important turning point that people need to know if they’re not aware of the history, but just from let’s say 220 BCE forward, that’s the beginning of the Chinese imperial period where the different like, separate states get combined from that point forward into like, singular dynasties and —
BL: Yes.
CB: — a succession of dynasties, but that astrology becomes part of the royal court, and it’s being used by the rulers and especially interpreted in that context of who’s in charge at the time.
BL: Yes. That’s why the royal astrologer has also a very important role all these times probably since Shang dynasty, actually. Xia, Shang, Jhou dynasty. It was already very important, but at the time, it was used for dynastic succession. Like how they calculated with different foundations in Chinese astrology, like, with the philosophy of it, the foundation of it. But not necessarily having one unified – like, Qin Shi Huang was having this idea of putting himself as the center of the sky. But after his era, it started to happen a lot more often for the emperor to put himself in the equivalent with a pole.
CB: Okay. So that became really like, central then, that the emperor was supporting astrology and had court astrologers. And you mentioned this at one point, this idea of a Mandate of Heaven. Could you expand on like, what that is or what that was about or what role that played in culture?
BL: The Mandate of Heaven originally, before Qin dynasty, so from Xia, Shang, Zhou to Warring State period, the Mandate of Heaven was seen as some of the celestial phenomenon. Say for example the planetary parade and which direction is it and how is that particular part of the sky in relation to the pole? That is how they identify whether this section of the sky that, let me see how I can put this better. I’m not explaining it in a way that is clear I think.
CB: That’s okay.
BL: Yeah.
CB: You don’t have to get into the technical. I was more just thinking of the concept/ in your dissertation you wrote that the emperor’s right to rule was granted by heaven; is that true?
BL: Yes. Yes. The emperor’s role was granted by heaven; that is basically what the Mandate of Heaven means. And in Chinese wordings, there is this four characters called [speaking Chinese] that also is saying that the right to rule is from heaven. And how do we see that? It’s to read into the sky and relate it back on earth and see which section of or which position is this king located right now, and what is their relationship with the pole? It’s like, what is going on with them, and that’s how people read the Mandate in the times before Qin dynasty. But after Qin dynasty, we know that he placed himself – Qin Shi Huang – place himself in the pole and it just becomes a constant thing. But yes. And also, sometimes when the comet came about or novas came about, comets might mean something that is happening and the morals of the emperor needs to be revised or reviewed how he is doing. That could indicate some of those elements, some of those factors. And for novas, sometimes it means a rise of someone of importance. And so for some of the emperors, they might get a little like, I’m not sure like, what this means – like, someone important is born, or you know, and that gives them some kind of hints.
There is this interesting thing that I was thinking about; it’s in the ancient times in China, it was probably like, the internet. It’s not internet. The sky was more like a skynet that people look up to see information of what’s happening around them in the neighboring kingdoms, or like, what is going on in around them to strategize or weaponize these information that they can get from the sky. So it’s kind of like a skynet. Not like Terminator Skynet, but truly like a skynet and sort of internet that we today we go online and see what’s happening around the world. At the ancient Chinese times, we look at the sky to see, to get hints from what’s going on around and how can I strategize better?
CB: Right. So they were paying attention to omens like eclipses and comets and novas as telling them things about how the kingdom was doing and how the emperor themself was doing, including their conduct, but also in relation to the potential for like, wars or conflicts with other kingdoms as well.
BL: Yeah. They would some of the people, like from scholar professor Pankonir, he also talked about – he wrote a lot about the Shang Zhou dynastic succession. And I think what his work about this dynastic succession is that he illustrated and also translated some of the ancient texts at the time that was describing what’s happening in the sky and how Zhou people, which is the rival of Shang dynasty, also saw these signs in the sky. And Shang dynasty astrologer also saw these signs in the sky and couple of years before Zhou finally won the war. And so it’s almost like both of the parties knew there’s this – something is coming up. And Zhou has more kind of like, this confidence, and this is well knowing that this is my time to legitimize this war, and I can do something about it and conquer Shang and becomes Zhou dynasty after Shang. That’s one of the way that people used at the time to weaponize it or to justify wars and revolutions when they see fit.
CB: Right. One of the things that they used to justify or that they associated is I think you mentioned earlier there was a lineup of five different, of all the visible planets in the sky at the beginning of the Han dynasty. And this was seen as a really important astrological omen that they associated with the rise of that new dynasty.
BL: Yes. These planetary parade, they did relate it to like, a new era is arising, or something of a change. Like, a huge change is coming collectively in the Chinese world. Han dynasty was one, and then there was this other times in Tang dynasty when the first emperor, the second emperor actually, of Tang dynasty come into position, there was this planetary parade thing that was also recorded. And that came a really colorful, vibrant time of in the Chinese world at the time, so people were saying that it is not exactly a bad omen, but it is a good change. So whether or not it is a bad thing or a good thing, it’s really depends on the position that you are standing of that big change that is coming.
CB: Okay. So that brings up maybe something important is that for a very long time, Chinese astrologers were paying attention to like, regular planetary movements and seasons and things like that, but they seem to be especially interested in things that were anomalous, that like, stood out that were not frequent. Like, especially like a comet that shows up out of nowhere that is an infrequent phenomenon. Or like a supernova, or even eclipses. And they seem to have really taken note of things like that as being important. Is that right?
BL: In Chinese astrology, the patterns in the sky was seen to reflect all forms on earth, and so when they look at the sky, there is… I’m sorry; I was a little distracted earlier and I totally couldn’t digest the question that you asked me.
CB: That’s okay. I was just, in some of the literature I was reviewing leading up to this, some of the scholars were saying that the Chinese astrologers seemed to be particularly interested in astronomical phenomenon that showed up out of nowhere, that was anomalous, so that —
BL: Yes.
CB: — like, a comet, for example, appears suddenly without any warning.
BL: Yes, yes. I believe in Shang Zhou dynasty, there was already a lot of recordings about this celestial phenomena that you just talked about. And some of them are seen as good omen, and some of them are like, bad omen. And I think because like, in I Ching, we see that all of the forms in the sky also reflects on earth, it’s called [speaking Chinese] – [speaking Chinese] meaning the patterns, and [speaking Chinese] it’s the forms and shape on earth. And that’s how we form the Chinese characters as well. So whenever there is something that is not normal or regular happening in the sky, it also indicates that something is not normal or not regular that is happening on earth, especially for the kingdom. And that’s why these phenomenon like eclipses – solar eclipses or Moon eclipses – and comets and novas, these are some of the things that in the ancient time, they will record it and sometimes they will put drawings on it just like the one that excavated in the Warring State period with the comet Halley. And they will record what was happening at the time and what is a possibility of whatever that is going to happen. For example, if the tail is longer, what does that mean? The tail is shorter; what does it mean? When it’s brighter, dimmer, or sparkling, what does it mean? And so there are a lot of indicators to read about in the books on the observing of the patterns in the sky, and these are some of the phenomenon that we are looking deeper into. Mostly —
CB: I’m really fascinated —
BL: — for the Mandate of Heaven. Yes. But mostly for the Mandate of Heaven, not a lot for them in reading natal astrology, because natal astrology came about in Tang dynasty. So by the time they were recording these phenomenon, it was way before natal astrology was established. And in those times in Xia-Shang-Zhou, Warring State period, Qin dynasty, Han dynasty, it was mostly about the kingdom, the wellness of the kingdom, the wellbeing of the people. That’s more what it was about.
CB: I’m really fascinated by that, because a year ago I got really into studying comets. And I found that the Chinese astrologers did the best job of anywhere in the world of tracking comets, that they thought they were so important that for many centuries they took very regular observations and notes about comets that still survive to this day. Whereas in the west, there was a mistaken understanding about what comets were because Aristotle said that they might just be like, vapors in the atmosphere. And I think as a result of that, that actually held back progress and study of comets in the West. But in China, the records are very extensive and also the delineations are very extensive. You mentioned that there’s this the Book of Silk that survives from 300 BCE that has illustrations of like, 28 different comets and their interpretations, right? Or maybe it’s 30 comets.
BL: Yes. I think these – for ancient China, we do have in astrology two of the important things that we do. It’s one of them is astronomical observation. And then the second important thing, it’s about astrological calculations. And both of them they come hand-in-hand in not only reading the sky, but we also do a lot of calculation in astrological sense. And those physical phenomenon that they recorded, I think it is great because in Chinese history, there is definitely less disruptions as western astrology. So there are a lot of great texts that has passed on, that is possible. And for Chinese astrology as well and during the Ming dynasty, or Yuan dynasty, when the Mongolians were in charge of China, that was when a lot of astronomical instruments that came into place, and then they started to use a lot of these instruments to observe even closer of the comets and of the planets and of everything. And so our star map in China also revised at the time since the Book of the Silk. They already has revised it after in Ming dynasty, and then revised again probably in Qin dynasty to be more – to update the whole thing. But when the scientists – I mean, like right now, it’s not that I’m reading a paper or anything, but it’s on top of my head that when they were looking into it, they found that although at the time they were only recording with the physical like, what they could see – the color and like, the shapes and all those characteristics – but they were pretty close to what they actually are studying or looking through the astronomical instruments when they were introduced. So yeah. I think that is really fascinating and so much to learn and look into, especially now we have much more advanced scientific ways of looking at the physical thing, while in ancient China we also used the astrological calculations in some of the ways and also used this special resonance when we are feeling or kind of trying to sense the situation of what’s going on. That is part of being an astrologer is to have that kind of resonance as well, as much as what we see and what we can calculate. Does that make sense?
CB: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Is it true that comets were referred to sometimes are “broom stars,” and they were associated with sweeping away the old and sometimes —
BL: That order or like, old era. It was being written that way. But I would say that to really look into the particular time when the comet that was being detected, what was really going on and what dynasty was it, and what was happening, will it be a propaganda, will it be, you know, it really depends on the context of when they are writing it and who was writing it. It’s like how we read history. So it’s hard to generalize like, is that the broom sweeping out an old era or old order that is no longer good for us, or like, there is a lot of reinterpretation in that. But generally, yes, it was called the broom, because it was said that whenever this happened, the old order would be sweeped away, and yeah.
CB: Okay.
BL: It’s interesting stuff.
CB: So as a result of that, sometimes the emperor would do things in order to try to mitigate negative omens potentially, or even – I thought it was interesting that sometimes there was like, a moral component to it that sometimes a comet or other ominous phenomenon would be interpreted as the emperor needing to change something that they’re doing or doing something that wasn’t moral that needed to be improved.
BL: Sometimes that happened as well, like, as a warning sign for how the ruler is doing. Like, we can also look at the sky. And for the ruler to – how do I put it? For the ruler to make the situation better, sometimes we will have different kinds of rituals to be done in a particular way at a particular time and date that we choose and pick. And that is how it works in the ancient times and also for contemporary times to choose the auspicious time and date for different things, like for an opening of a business or for moving into a new home. That’s how that is different now, but like, the use of it is different, but we are still using that kind of cosmic parallelism in our day-to-day life for rituals and picking an auspicious date and time to work with things that are important to us.
CB: Okay. So that actually brings up one of your particular areas of focus, which is the idea of fate and the role that fate played as a concept in Chinese astrology. Where do you start, or what’s your entry point for understanding that?
BL: For fate and free will, when I was doing my research, I was… In the class, I’ve read a lot of western philosophy about fate and free will, and then it prompted to me that I wanna know how like, what are the thoughts about the Chinese contemporary astrologers? Like, what are their thoughts and how do they look at fate and free will? Is free will a thing? Is there an extent of free will? And then so that was part of my research. And so in the Chinese concept of fate and free will, there is an extent of free will in it from I Ching, because change is inevitable. And in change, there is an element of chance in it. And in the element of chance, I can have this explanation that I feel like it’s more, it can explain better – it’s William James’ two-stage model of free will. He mentioned that in free will, there is two stages; one is choice, and the other is chance. And that is exactly how in I Ching how they describe this possibility, these endless possibilities. It’s in that quantum change of chance. Because choice, you can make a choice. But chance is something that you can’t really get your hands on. But that doesn’t mean that human doesn’t have a responsibility in that direction that you’re going, because choice also determined that trajectory of whatever that you are choosing. And so in ming yun or in the Chinese notion of fate, ming means fate – the innate quality of what you were born with – and yun, meaning that cycle of fate, the cycle of it. How are you going to jump into this natural order of cycle to make the highest potential? Like, the highest possible potential to be materialized or actualized? That is the point of the free will that we have to choose and let the chance unfold for you. That’s basically what ming yun means, or the Chinese notion of fate means. So in this meaning of ming yun, or the Chinese notion of fate, we can easily see that in the I Ching, from I Ching, ming and yun, it’s the cycle of fate. And in this cycle, we do have an extent of free will in it. But after maybe in Qin dynasty and after that imperialism kicked in, a lot of these changes, because philosophy arose. Religion were introduced. And they have different intentions of these organized groups, big groups. They have different intentions. There were power struggles. They want stability; they want power, control. So an authoritarian kind of fatalism kind of way arose at the time after Qin dynasty. Like, Qin dynasty, they killed all of the scholars and astrologers, leaving nothing behind except himself as the center. And that way, that authoritarian thing also imposed that idea of fatalism – like, this is the only way. And he was trying to overthrow the determinism with the dynasty before him that with the five element cycle, or the progression, or the destruction cycle that there is something with cause and effect. And that way, it’s also not as an extent of free will as we wanna talk about in I Ching, which we still need to date back to Xia Shang Zhou period and that mentality.
So you can see that in China, the mentality of fate and free will also changed through time because of political reason and the political rhetoric of how they use astrology as a tool instead of looking at the natural phenomenon with an extent of free will. And so yeah. That’s how I look at it.
CB: Sure. Okay. So maybe on the one hand, there are ideas of determinism and of fate and the notion that when an astrological omen appears, it means something specific is gonna happen one way or another. But then on the other hand, there’s also conceptualizations of choice and even perhaps uses of types of electional astrology of maybe choosing when to act in the hope that you’ll have a better outcome —
BL: Yes.
CB: — on a good date versus like, a bad one.
BL: Yes. Yes. I think that’s part of how we can initiate that change in getting into that natural order of harmonization between people and the environment and heaven. The rituals was one of the ways, and then human initiation and actually doing something with their own actions is one of the ways. And yeah, and that’s why I think ritual is a big part in Chinese culture, even ‘til today.
CB: Okay. That makes sense. So going back to some of the earlier omens that we talked about just in the context of mundane astrology and the emperor during the imperial period, sometimes when things like an eclipse would happen, eclipses were sometimes viewed as negative omens and could indicate like, the death of an emperor or a war or a famine. But sometimes the emperor might issue an edict in order to promise change or improvement, or I read in one instance they might release prisoners as a sort of way to ward off some of the negative omen indicated.
BL: Yes. I believe that there are a lot of historical texts that was written that they also described what happened in the sky and what they do in response to what they are reading from heavens. But as I mentioned earlier, I think we do need to read it in the particular context of the dynasty. It’s hard to generalize it as like, this must mean something, but of course there are classics written that this means this, and that means this will happen if there is an eclipse. But yeah, I believe so, but like, nowadays when I’m looking at it, I would be more careful that there will be something maybe borderline negative might happen, or like, I need to be careful. But then does it mean that the emperor is going to die? Or like, it’s possible, but then there are still things that we can do to kind of make the situation better. And that’s how we make use of the extent of free will instead of thinking that it is determined and when this happens, this cause and effect, or this is the phenomenon that we are seeing, and he’s gonna die! I don’t think that’s the way to go, but yeah.
There is this interesting story that I wanna share with you in terms of why I took the course and why I feel this way that I want to dig into fate and free will. My grandfather was a Chinese astrologer, and he was also a researcher, and he supported his community in doing a lot of research. So he really, really believed of course in his own predictions or his own readings in his own chart. And so I think when he was pretty old – like, 80 something, 90 something years old – he read in his own chart that in two years, there will be something that will be happening, that there was a possibility that he is not gonna make it. And so when it was him, he was reading it, and he was very confident, of course, about his skills and his readings, and he got really depressed. After all, we are mortal, and when he was at the time, he just got very depressed and he didn’t really wanna see anyone. He was staying at home all the time doing his own thing, doing reading, doing calligraphy and all. And so at the time when my dad picked up – my dad is the eldest son, and so in our lineage usually the eldest son will learn the techniques. And he had his own worldview and his own lived experiences, obviously, so he decided that he – besides astrology, of reading – this a little bit determined kind of way of my grandfather’s way – not Chinese astrology, but my grandfather as a practitioner – he was very confident about his own techniques. And my dad was very into religion; he started to study a lot of Buddhism, philosophy, and see if like, he was pondering on how to come out of this cycle of limitations that people are putting on themselves, and can we change our fate? Is it written in stone? Is there anything that we can do, more than the rituals that we can already try? So that’s my dad; he was looking into philosophy and religion. And then for me now, when I am looking back at my grandfather’s experience and my dad’s experience, for my research I am trying to look deeper into going back to the natural phenomenon of how we were using I Ching and what did the I Ching said about fate and free will? And how can we use that as a tool that can empower people to have free will, and how are we gonna get that most highest potential that we can get in this natural order? So that is something that I wanna share with you in terms of sometimes when we read certain phenomenon, it’s interesting to look at the history, but at the same time I think we also need to remember that we have free will, an extent of it, and we can always try to do things to ride on that wave. Just like in I Ching, they said it’s learning how to ride on the dragon, basically. And that’s what we learn in astrology, I think, to empower people and not think that it’s determined.
CB: Sure. For sure. Yeah. That’s definitely a tension, I think, that all astrologers experience, especially in terms of inheriting some of the older traditions and the heaviness that can sometimes come with some of those predictions and some of those omens, especially when something negative is indicated versus our feelings as like, people living in the 21st century as contemporary modern people that wanna be empowered and not give into fatalism as a result of what you see about the future. You know, that seems like a very universal struggle that contemporary astrologers have.
BL: Right.
CB: What was the outcome of that story, though, with your grandfather and what he saw?
BL: So two years later after he read that, he did pass the year that he saw that he was gonna pass. And so now that I look at it, when I’m reading in the charts, when I see there is certain possibility of some of the things that could happen, I would encourage the client to do something beforehand. Say for example it’s about health – just an example. Then you can start to go for a body checkup more often, or particular body parts, or you know, start exercising ahead instead of doing what you’re already doing every day and not making any changes. I think like, in our day and age, it’s not only rituals that we can do, but also there is something that we can actively do for self-development that maybe we can exceed that thing that we’re reading from the chart. Like, if anything, you wanna grow out of the chart; it has to be from you. It cannot be from other people. I mean, rituals can help, I think, in some of the cultures. Like, different cultures have different rituals that would be helpful. But also taking the initiative to work on the things that we are in control, it’s also it will help as much as, yeah.
CB: That makes sense. Yeah. And maybe there’s a parallel there already with other practices like Feng Shui and how you try to change things in your environment in order to have a more optimal outcome than you might have otherwise.
BL: Yes. Feng Shui, it’s one of the things that we do in the family for the particular, for our practice. So it’s like when your environment become more harmonized, or more flow, then you will have a clearer mind in doing the things that you want to do for health and for abundance and all. So Feng Shui, it’s also using the form to – the form of our environment – to influence the form like, as a human being in that environment. So it’s also they are all connected – like, how we read the sky reflected on the earth, and then how the earth will affect the people living in it. So yeah, that’s one of the things.
So I wanna add just that when my grandfather passed, he was also doing the rituals. But some of the things that couldn’t help… I was just always thinking about like, it’s not only the environment, but we ourselves need to do something about like, if you are very depressed and you’re not going to therapy or not doing anything about it, and then just close the door and be with yourself, then nothing is gonna change, not – then yeah. So I think as much as the environment, the people and what you are doing is also part of the forms of our world that can make changes, and yeah. That’s what I think.
CB: Yeah. You know, part of my book – I wrote a book about ancient western astrology, and that did bring a more deterministic form of astrology into modern times. And I think something contemporary astrologers who started going back and reading ancient texts have struggled with is sometimes getting used to more deterministic forms of astrology where what happens if there is an instance where there is something that’s not negotiable in terms of your fate, no matter how hard you try. Because I think we all have sometimes those instances where no matter how hard you try to get away from something, there’s just something that’s outside of your control, and you know, are we able to control everything, necessarily, about our fate? Do you —
BL: I don’t – I mean, I don’t think we can control everything. But how we read the chart with the 60 ganzhi cycles, sometimes some of the ways that we read and to interpret it, you have to sense what it means. It’s not very literal. So I do think that there are some of the ways that we can – as an astrologer, I think it’s that I walk together with the client to see this is what I thing. This is the possibilities. And let’s apply it to your situation particularly – what can we do, and what is the best way that we can find in this situation with what I am reading? And I think there are a lot of possibilities, but we have to feel it in and not read it so literally. Sometimes when we are reading it so literally, it limits our imagination, and the possibilities that we can go and how far we can go. Yeah.
CB: Right. Yeah. And you’ve also bring up a really good point that there’s an element of interpretation to astrology, and there’s ambiguity there inherently due to the element of interpreting symbolism.
BL: Yes. I think so. That is why I was saying that when we started the conversation, you mentioned about Han dynasty was an important times in Chinese astrology’s development, and I totally agree because at the time, it was because of their particular worldviews – the dynastic worldview – that they would categorize it as warfare strategy, as prose and poems of the great minds, and who are the great minds? Like, who is the editor? Who was writing this? Who was approving these categorization? Like, they have a sort of like, a worldview in identifying them and putting them into these ways that is best for their times, serving the kingdom. But in our times, it’s also very different, and so like, what is important to us might not necessarily be important to them at their time. And so like, for us, it might be more about we might put in our times in late ‘70s to ‘80s, the categorization of Chinese astrology has changed. It became five different categories – mainly the first one, it’s about the body and mind. So it’s about how we can have a healthier practice with Chinese astrology, but internally as well as physically. How do we move in the world physically, and how do we practice? Strengthen our mind. And then the second one is medicine – so Chinese medicine is one of the ways that is more important to us and relevant to us. Not important, but relevant to our times. And then there is about fate, the natal astrology, and then Feng Shui – that’s the last one that was mentioned in the categorization. And the categorization also reflected how people, late ‘70s to early ‘80s, felt about this technique that has passed down, how are we gonna make use of it in the best way that we could? And so I think the worldview has a lot to do with how we use and how we think.
CB: Yeah. That makes sense. I thought it was interesting that you mention that the Han dynasty from 200 BCE forward that you felt like the astrology became more deterministic as well as systematized during that time, because in the west, a parallel thing was happening with the emergence of Hellenistic astrology and horoscopic astrology which was also very deterministic at the time and tied in with Stoicism. So I always thought it was interesting that there was a parallel development that were probably completely independent in two different parts of the world that were emerging at the same time.
BL: That’s interesting to know. Yeah. In Han dynasty. It would be interesting to know what’s happening around the time, like, because we know that in planetary parade, the Han dynasty, Han Gaozu, arised to be the first emperor, the first Han emperor. And I wonder what happened at that time in the western world, you know, like a similar time of – let me see the year of it… 206 BCE.
CB: So that was during the period in which… It was the period after Alexander the Great had taken over a lot of the Mediterranean and the Middle East, and then subsequent to that a bunch of his successors fought for the next century or so. And during that time, the Roman Empire started to arise as the dominant superpower in the Mediterranean. So Rome started to emerge at that time, essentially.
BL: Wow.
CB: Yeah.
BL: That’s amazing to know.
CB: Interesting parallel there. There was probably something going on with the astrology. Maybe it was that planetary parade, that lineup of planets. But anyways, but I wanted to get through a few more discussion topics before we run out of time. One of them is one of the only things that many people outside of – in the west – know about Chinese astrology is the notion of the 12 animal signs. And I was wondering if you could speak to the origin of that and what role that plays in Chinese astrology.
BL: So the – I think the zodiac animals probably arose in Tang dynasty when a lot of the stars were deified because of the introduction of diverse culture. At the time, the so-called “western” philosophy and religion like Buddhism came into China and flourished, and so their arts also came about, and that we can see in [speaking Chinese], the cave arts, that there were a lot of deities that was drawn on the walls inside of the caves. And we can see a lot of the stars or the constellations or the 28 lunar mansions were deified into human person or into some really interesting figures. So at that particular time, also the 12 animal zodiac has became animal head with like, a human body kind of photos – or the paintings arose. So it was from Tang dynasty. And that was also —
CB: And that’s like, 700 CE, let’s say?
BL: That is…
CB: Tang dynasty, I have it written down as 618 through —
BL: Yes.
CB: — 907?
BL: Yes, yes, yes. 618 CE.
CB: So that’s pretty late development then, in terms of like, the history of Chinese astrology?
BL: Yeah. It was later in the dynasty that it developed, but that was also the time when natal astrology developed by Li Xu Zhong. Li Xu Zhong was born in 761 CE, and he was the one who was trying to make this system that we are using, still using right now, doing natal astrology. So at the time, we have like, Iranian, Islamic, Sufian influences, too, from central Asia through the trade routes, the Silk Road, and so like, there were a lot of – the culture was very diverse. And on top of that with religion and all that was developing, that leads to a lot of new schools that popped up, and also the zodiac sign of zodiac animal. But for zodiac animal, we can also – it’s not like it came out of nowhere. It has the equivalence in the chart that we talked about in the 60 year cycle called [speaking Chinese], or the 60 ganzhi system that generates with the 10 heavenly stems and 12 earthly branches. And the 10 heavenly stems and the 12 earthly branches interacts with each other that generates the 60 terms. And the 60 terms forms a complete chart called [speaking Chinese], 60 [speaking Chinese]. So every [speaking Chinese], we will multiply into three as one complete cycle. And one major cycle would be 180 years. And with that, we also divide them into different elements. So with the different elements, we also come up with the different years. Say for example this year it’s the year of the snake. [Speaking Chinese] in the 12 earthly branches, meaning snake. It could mean snake, and it could also mean yin fire. Like, it has a lot of equivalents in that one particular word, and it can have different meanings when it combines with the heavenly stem of say, for example, this year is [speaking Chinese]. So [speaking Chinese], it’s yin wood. So yin wood and yin fire – what does it mean? What does it tell us? And so we can so-called “interpret” or think about its meaning that it tells for this particular year with this earth branch combination. So for the zodiac animal, it is the 12 earthly branches that we talked about, and with each of them, sometimes I think in western culture how people usually read it is from the year that they were born to identify themselves as which zodiac animal that they belong to. But in Chinese astrology, a lot of times we don’t really use the year; we might use the day – the day’s stem branch – as your personal reading. Like, the core of to read about you that we will use the day stem-branch. I’m trying to translate it – yes —
CB: That’s all right.
BL: — in my head. Yeah.
CB: So that’s interesting. You made a point that it’s integrated into the other concepts of like, yin and yang are integrated as well as —
BL: Yes.
CB: — in Chinese culture and astrology there’s five elements instead of in the west there’s four elements. And the Chinese elements are wood, fire, earth, metal, and water, and that’s part of the background that goes into the 12 animal signs as well.
BL: Yes. Because in the 12 earthly branches, each of them has an element of yin, yang, yin, yang, yin, yang, and also with the five elements, and all of them together generates the 12 zodiac animals in a chart. So each of them has yin/yang, each of them has their five elements in it in itself. And when we are reading about a person, it’s not only that earthly branch or that zodiac animal that we’re reading; we also need to read about the heavenly stem that it is pairing with at the branch. And that is only the day, and what we are trying to read in a natal chart includes all of the stem-branch of the Four Pillars that involves the year, the month, the day, and the hour – all of the four stem-branch that we can see their association with each other and their relationship with each other to generate ba-zi chart. Ba-zi means eight characters, and in this chart with the Four Pillars, each of them carry two Chinese characters. On top of it is the heavenly stem, and then the bottom part is the earthly branches that gives us eight characters, and that’s why the way we call the astrological chart in Chinese astrology, it’s ba-zi or eight characters.
CB: Got it. Okay. And the years – it begins with the Chinese new year, right? And what is the Chinese new year based on?
BL: The Chinese new year – what do you mean, Chinese new year based on?
CB: Is it connected with like, the New Moon after like, a solstice or something like that, or like, I’m trying to think of if it’s based on an astronomical starting point for the new year or how it’s measured.
BL: Yes, yes. It is based on the Chinese almanac. And the Chinese almanac, it’s actually a lunisolar calendar. So we look at both the solar terms – there are 24 solar terms that we identified mainly in ancient times for agricultural purposes. And so every 15 to 16 days, there will be one term, and there are a total of 24 terms each year. And Lunar New Year, it’s one of the terms in this 24 terms. But we also combine it with the lunar cycle. So when there’s a New Moon, then we call it the first day, and then the 15th day it’s the Full Moon. So like, we kind of try to do the cycles with also starting with the lunar cycle but also adding on top of it with the solar term to complete the almanac, the farmer’s almanac, that we read today.
CB: Got it. Okay. That makes sense. And going back to the 12 animal signs, in the west, it’s based on usually it’s associated with like, months. But in the Chinese system, the 12 signs are based on years —
BL: Year.
CB: And sometimes people like, speculate that’s based on – or it was originally based on Jupiter, which also takes about a year to go through – it takes 12 years, or Jupiter is also like, a 12-year planetary period. Was that originally based on Jupiter, or is that not the correct connection to make?
BL: It was based on the Jupiter in the very beginning. And so you are right, and the sky was also read in the 12 different sections of wherever the Jupiter lands, and that would be the section of [speaking Chinese], meaning the deity of the year. And usually in rituals we would go to the temple every year during Chinese New Year to do these, to develop this ritual to tell the deity of the year that wish for good luck, sort of good luck. And according to the interactions of the stem-branch, we can identify which animal signs are more – or like, which of the sections or the animal signs that we call it today are more lucky, and which ones are less auspicious that we have to do more rituals about it. And that’s what we do in Chinese New Year. But that’s exactly what was it about – it’s reading about the Jupiter, the position of the Jupiter.
CB: Okay. And so to what extent is it still, the 12 year cycle and the 12 animals, to what extent is that still based on Jupiter versus to what extent is it separate from that now and is more almost like, numerological in nature?
BL: Right now, like, in Chinese culture, people no longer really look at it. Like, they don’t really look the astronomical side; it’s more like a tradition that we do it with the astrological calculation more than observation, like, real life observation of where Jupiter is right now or which section it is. We just use the like, mostly using the calculation that we have been using for many, many years. Yeah. So it’s a little different. I’m trying to look for that info that I have here about the, about Jupiter. Yeah. Carry on. Sorry.
CB: What are the 12 animal signs that are associated? I guess I forgot to mention like, what the actual animals are.
BL: Oh, we have the rat, the ox, and then tiger, rabbit, dragon, snake, horse, the goat, monkey, rooster, the dog, the pig.
CB: Got it. Okay.
BL: So those are the 12 zodiac animals that have been identified in Chinese astrology, and each of them also have an equivalent of the 12 earthly branches of that character, of the earthly branches that can be associated with.
CB: To what extent is the, I don’t know, the characteristics or qualities associated with each animal, to what extent does that inform the astrological interpretation?
BL: Sometimes people look at it as like, with their characteristics, but I personally wouldn’t necessarily only reading like, oh, like a dog they’re very loyal! And it’s not exactly like how we interpret it today as some of the things that I read. But it’s interesting, like, how people associate different animals’ characteristics. Like snake, for example, this year – it’s about changes, which also I think it makes sense. Like, some of them does make sense. But not necessarily all of them. Like, it has to be read in multiple layers, like with the five elements of the animal and also with the yin/yang of the animal sign and where they are in the particular year. So like, say for example if you are year of the dog, and then you are in this year of snake. How is your stem-branch interacting with this year’s stem-branch? And that’s how we read about what is going on with your sign instead of just looking at the year of the dog, this year it’s like, this and that. It’s more generalized. I mean, it’s not that it’s not right; it’s a way to do it. But it’s not as precise as you are going for like, a more complete reading, so yeah.
CB: That makes sense. So it’s just one factor that you’re layering on top of multiple different factors, including the quality of the element and the yin/yang component as well. That makes sense.
BL: Yes. Yes, yes, there are more layers to it.
CB: That’s very similar in western astrology where you might have like, Taurus is like, the bull, but then also it’s said to be like, an earth sign, and it’s also a feminine sign. So those are the three things also taken into account there, so it’s very parallel.
BL: Yes. I think it’s very similar the way you describe it. That makes sense.
CB: Yeah. All right. So I’m trying to think of other major practices. So you talked about natal astrology came into China after 600 or 700 BCE, and I’ve done a previous episode with Jeffrey Kotyk about the transmission of natal astrology through Persia and the interactions between the East and West through the Silk Road and through the Persian intermediaries and how that sort of went back and forth. To what extent did natal astrology become like, a major approach to astrology that was distinct from the earlier mundane astrology from that point forward?
BL: I would say that it’s close by. After Han dynasty, there were a lot of philosophy about fate that arose, and that was a time that people also think about what is fate. But for them to really do it in astrology as an individual fate kind of reading, it was Tang dynasty. And I believe that was mostly because there was introduction of religion, of Buddhism, of all these kind of new ways of concepts that people start to think about their like, how am I relating to the world, and not just thinking about the Mandate of Heaven as everything in readings. Just the wellbeing of the kingdom, you know. And that was a time when art was thriving and then philosophy was thriving. Diverse culture. Very inclusive. And intellectuals arose and they just start thinking about all these more on individual fate. And I think that was probably why, because there was religion and philosophy flourishing in Tang dynasty, and there was also more freedom in doing their own research as well. Because before then in Han dynasty and those times, astrology was always a bureaucratic activity. And after Qin dynasty, no one was able to really research into it, and Han dynasty, they were all in the court. So in Tang dynasty there was some of more of the freedom for people to research into it and make way in getting to know themselves in this astrological way.
CB: Got it. That makes sense. So was astrology then, did it continue to be both state supported as well as something that was done by individual people in the public all the way up until the early 1900s?
BL: Originally, it was always – it has always been state supported, including Xia-Shang-Zhou dynasty and then Warring State. Each little kingdoms, they have their own court; they have their own state. And it’s also in the state supported thing to do. Tang dynasty also. But in Tang dynasty, there was more freedom for individuals to look into it, research into it. And in Song dynasty, however, because of new Confucianism arose, and then they preferred something that can be more rationalized. Or it was a period when routinization with astrology, and they increased their intension in moral self cultivation and social, ethical philosophy and rejected all the systems where were deemed spiritual or mystical. And so they see metaphysics or astrology as a guide for developing rationalist, ethical philosophy rather than a catalyst for spiritual development. So by that time, astrology was sidelined from the court and it wasn’t being one of the focus of the court anymore. And so individual research also because of that people can have a chance to really have the space to develop it further. So I would say after Tang dynasty’s openness and Song dynasty because lack of focus on astrology, people can start to develop more about individual fate and astrology at that time.
CB: Okay. That makes sense. So and the Song dynasty ended 1279 CE. And then one of the things you wrote about in your master’s thesis that I didn’t know about was that in the early 20th century, that after a lot of the revolutions and the cultural changes that astrology fell out of favor, and that a lot of the astrology in China moved away from mainland China to the periphery areas like in Hong Kong and Taiwan. Is that true, or to what extent can you talk about that transition?
BL: Yeah. So Qin dynasty around 1911, which was the last imperial dynasty in China. And then after that time in around 1919, there was this very famous movement called the May Fourth movement. And it was a time triggered by the Treaty of Versailles that China felt betrayed as Shandong was ceded to Japan instead of regaining sovereignty themselves. And so the student in Beijing went out for protest, large scale protest, demanding national unity and reform. And they started a movement that they need to foster new ideas of democracy and socialism and challenging a lot of traditional ideas and concepts. And so they were challenging a lot of ancient traditions at the time. So that time, that movement kind of set the stage for future political movements, including the rise of the PRC later on. So when in the ‘40s when the PRC established, they abolished all of the traditional traditions, including Chinese astrology was one of them. And then during the Cultural Revolution, also the… So in the ‘60s and ‘70s, the Cultural Revolution in China also result in a mass loss of cultural knowledge including a lot of physical temples or texts were lost during that time. It is a little sensitive, I admit, this —
CB: Sure, yeah.
BL: — topic.
CB: I understand.
BL: Yes. And so because of this movement, it also prompted a deeper reflection in China to preserve traditions and all of these classics. And so it was very unfortunate that there were a lot of texts and things that were gone, and a lot of people fled the country for that. But because of that, there were reflections done in China, and now we can see that there are also selectively some of the traditions that they decide to preserve and how they categorizing it is again, it’s different because of the different worldviews and our cultural and historical background and development. So I would say that the preservation is fragmented because of that. And so in Hong Kong however, or in other places like Taiwan or international communities, it preserved in a different way. Like, I can’t say that in China they are not doing – they are doing their own thing, too. Like, they are trying to preserve it the best way that they could, but there were not – maybe there were a lot lost in the years in history. And so in other places like in the periphery, like Hong Kong, under colonization, Chinese astrology and the culture actually provided a really important gel – I don’t know what word I can use for that – to hold the community together as we are practicing it rigorously under colonization. And that is partly why here in Hong Kong or in international communities we try to preserve that identity or that culture and to practice it from generations passed on generations. And I think that is part of the difference between how we are preserving it.
And so for me, I would think that even in the institutions in universities in Hong Kong or in China or in other places, like, they are not exactly putting Chinese astrology as a subject to really talk about it, because some of them still think that is superstitious due to the establishment of New China and also the May Fourth movement – it was since 1919, year 1919 – and with colonization. Some of the people also feel like this is something that is so outdated, it’s not scientific or not logical because they are not really reading into the philosophical roots and how it came about. So yes, that’s what I think. That in China they did abolish a lot of traditions, but they still are trying to preserve some of the ones that they are trying to preserve in a way that they feel it’s important to do.
CB: Have things gotten better in the past few decades in terms of the practice of astrology in mainland China? Do you think it’s some of the restrictions have lessened in recent decades? And is it, do you know what the legality is at this point?
BL: Definitely I think the level of respect has increased with more understanding of what Chinese astrology is and the tradition. So in China, you can still see that people are still very feel that the festivals – like mid-autumn festival, the Lunar New Year or the Chinese New Year festival, they are important seasonal festivals. The 24 solar terms are still celebrated, and the culture – it’s still being preserved as an agriculture tradition. So they do allow – or they still preserve some of the practice to be done. And while there are also some of the crackdowns of people using astrology to commercialize it, because in China, sometimes when the techniques and the history and the roots of it, it’s not being studied or understood, there is a very high chance of misusing them or taking advantage of people’s curiosity or just because they are yearning for something that is from the tradition and make use of – like, they misused it. And so there were a couple of times there were some bigger crackdowns in using Chinese astrology. But nowadays, I feel like as long as they are doing it in more like, a cultural way, or it’s still a gray area, I would say, that I’m not exactly sure how this line plays sometimes. But I believe that they also do have respect for the ancient traditions in a cultural way and historical way, and it’s a matter of worldview like, what they want to preserve and how to categorize them. It’s the same dynasty through dynasty. So it’s a really interesting thing to read into history sometimes and to, as I said, when we are looking at the omens and all, we have to look at the background information. What context are we looking at? Who is writing it? And how are we reading it as an individual?
CB: Makes sense. I had done a previous interview with David Raley at one point a few years ago where he talked about teaching a school of like, western astrology in China, and he said that it was more permissible as long as you’re focusing more on it as a in a psychological context or with like, character analysis instead of something more deterministic or predictive.
BL: Yeah. Yeah. Like, more approach like a form of culture than I think it is fine. Because there are too many people who doesn’t really know much about the whole history and the philosophy of it, and then they misuse it, and that also caused a lot of problems, especially now we have AIs. And a lot of them, I heard, right now around in the Chinese communities, people would use AI to read their own charts. But they didn’t really think about like, the interpretation of it and the worldview of the astrologer also have the influence in how they read and how they present the whole thing. And so there’s a lot of things that still need to wait. We’ll need to wait and see how it’s gonna develop.
CB: Yeah, that makes sense. And in your dissertation, you interviewed five different astrologers in order to talk about how they practiced and approached astrology in contemporary times as a living contemporary practice. So that’s something you’re really interested in documenting. What were some of the differences in terms of how different practitioners approach the technical practice of astrology today?
BL: I think all in all, the foundation of it is very similar. It’s like when we’re talking about Shang dynasty or like, using the ganzhi system. All of the dynasty until now, we are still using the same ganzhi system in doing the charts. So what is different? It’s the worldview of the people and the approach and how they look at fate that kind of makes the things that is different, or the categorization of the applications of astrology is different. So from my research, I talked to the five different contemporary astrologers, and I found out that one of them actually still have this determined, very determined way of looking at fate. The reason behind it – it’s also because this astrologer, this professional astrologer, has a very mixed background. She is actually from Malaysia, a Chinese ethnic city – a lady who is from Malaysia – and she practiced it along with a lot of other practices, including magic, including western magic and Malaysian magic and a lot of other practices involved in making her own practice. But she told me that in her core, she is still using Chinese astrology – the ba-zi Chinese astrological charts – as the core in reading and in doing all the rituals and astro magic that she does. She use Chinese astrology as the core. But the way she is looking at fate is a little different than the other traditions. Not other traditions, but other astrologers that I have interviewed. So I think the diverse culture and beliefs has its influence in how they interpret charts.
CB: Right. It seemed like they were each of them represented a unique blend or fusion of some of the traditional or like, ancient conceptualizations of Chinese astrology with some sometimes contemporary notions, including I saw one mention like, quantum mechanics at one point, for example —
BL: Yes!
CB: — was part of their like, conceptualization of astrology.
BL: Yeah. They do have different kind of conceptualizations. Some feel that it’s like mathematics. Some will use a scientific, prefer a scientific foundation with approach to Chinese astrology. And some with more artistic approach towards astrology as well. So they have different bgs, like how they grow up, and under this colonial system has some influence in how they work and how they see life and how they experience the charts and how they read it. It’s very interesting to see, to know, and that’s why in my paper, one of the important things is to decolonize these ways and to really put the original philosophical root to come back to the roots and to decolonize all these ways or these filters or this imperialism or colonization that has been the filters of people. Can we go back to that, and then start researching different points and see how did we come here? Yeah.
CB: Right. Can you expand on that in terms of what role do you think colonialism played in terms of influencing Chinese astrology over the past few centuries, or getting rid of some of those older traditions and conceptualizations?
BL: I think colonization did make… It helped in a way, I should say. It helped in a way that people with Chinese astrology or Chinese culture get together more tightly as a community because they want to preserve their identity, their cultural identity; that is a good thing. But the bad thing is that because of colonization, a lot of say for example in Hong Kong, a lot of names of the road has changed. And it was no longer the way we identify directions, or the harbor has changed. The Fragrant Harbor became Victoria Harbor, and there are a lot of things that has changed. So people kind of – the younger generations’ people kind of feel like this is not something that I can grow with. It’s something that is outdated and I can’t live in a society and thrive in a society by staying Chinese as my family are. And so that kind of affect how people practice as well. Like, the way they see the world. And also with colonization, people don’t really practice it as much in public. Like, before, it was a court thing – like, everyone is practicing it, especially in court, and it’s very important. But now it becomes something that is superstition because of lack of interest and lack of focus in getting to know our own traditions. And so it has over a hundred years of influence of the mentality for that, and so it does impact how people look at it and how people use it, and how they feel about it, whether they have that kind of pride or they want to know it, or they feel like it’s irrelevant.
CB: That makes sense. Yeah. So that’s part of your work is wanting to decolonize that and recognizing the traditional lineage of astrology in China as like, an important part of Chinese culture.
BL: Yes. Yes. Because in China, also, this Chinese astrology part, it’s not – especially in the recent history, the development of it, it’s not included in history because of what we talked about earlier. And I think the – I hope that my research can give the voice for the contemporary astrologer in the context of Chinese astrology that Chinese astrology now evolve and develop into not a bureaucratic activity. It is something that can help people to empower them, to preserve our culture, as much as we wanna navigate through our lives.
CB: Incredible. That makes sense. Beautiful. Well, what – since we’re coming towards the end of our time, what are you working on now, or what projects do you have coming up in the future? What are your plans in terms of your career as a scholar as well as an astrologer?
BL: I am trying to look into a PhD program, and hopefully I can do much more research in this area. And I hope that I can publish some of my works as well and keep on teaching classes and providing a way of reading for people including natal astrology or Feng Shui in a way that it’s relevant to our times. Yes. To make it more relevant to our people, to people.
CB: That makes sense. All right. And you’re teaching the course with the Sophia Centre right now —
BL: Yes.
CB: That’s ongoing. Do you think – you said you’re not sure yet if that, like, recordings from that will be available at some point in the future?
BL: I’m not sure if it will be available for late joiners to still join, but there is a possibility that it’s possible. But otherwise, I think I will keep trying to do new courses and to introduce you to much more of the different stories and the different histories and research that I find interesting and to share with you, and to really have more layers in getting to know Chinese astrology and not only zodiac animals, but there is so much to it as a culture and history.
CB: Amazing. Awesome. Well, I look forward to hearing more about that and seeing more of your work. So you have a page on Instagram where people can follow you, and that’s the best way to sort of track your work, right?
BL: Yes. Yes. It’s on Instagram; it’s called Astromergency. So the way I made the name was that it’s like “astrology” and “emergency” or “emerging.”
CB: I like that.
BL: So it’s Astromergency. And it would be great if you can put it in the link or like, little URL thing. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. I’ll put a link to that and to any —
BL: Yes.
CB: — other websites or like, contact information in the description below this video on YouTube as well as on the podcast website that way people can find your work and get in touch to, yeah, just see what you produce in the future.
So yeah, I think that’s it. Thank you so much for joining me today. We covered like, so much in this episode, and obviously there’s a lot we could have gone into with more depth. But I’m happy that we were able to talk about so much. So thanks for helping me to introduce my audience to such a big topic.
BL: Oh, thank you, Chris, for this opportunity. I really appreciate it, and I love sharing about Chinese astrology, and yeah, thank you so much for this! It’s fun.
CB: Awesome. All right! Thanks everyone for watching or listening to this episode of The Astrology Podcast, and we’ll see you again next time.
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