The Astrology Podcast
Transcript of Episode 379, titled:
With Chris Brennan, Ashley Paris, and Rob Bailey
Episode originally released on December 12, 2022
Note: This is a transcript of a spoken word podcast. If possible, we encourage you to listen to the audio or video version, since they include inflections that may not translate well when written out. Our transcripts are created by human transcribers, and the text may contain errors and differences from the spoken audio. If you find any errors then please send them to us by email: firstname.lastname@example.org
Transcribed by Mary Sharon
Transcription released January 4, 2023
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CHRIS BRENNAN: Hey, my name is Chris Brennan and you’re listening to The Astrology Podcast. In this episode, we’re gonna do a deep dive where we’re gonna go into and explain the meaning and the characteristics associated with the zodiac sign Sagittarius. Joining me today are astrologers Ashley Paris and Rob Bailey. Welcome, both of you.
ROB BAILEY: Hi, Chris.
ASHLEY PARIS: Thank you for having us.
CB: Hey, thanks for joining me today on this episode, this is the ninth installment in my series on the signs of the zodiac where we’ve been doing a deep dive through each of the signs. In the last episode, we did the arguably best sign of the zodiac which was Scorpio, and now we’re moving on to the later signs of the zodiac which are, you know, they’re okay, they’re up there in terms of good signs. I think you’d both agree.
AP: I’d say Sag was number one and maybe Scorpio can take second, but…
RB: I’m a fan of Scorpio, you know? But yeah, I have my own preferences. [laughs]
CB: All right. I think this episode is over. I think we’re done here. [laughter]
AP: I’m Sag and I know my truth, Chris.
CB: All right. Well, stick to those convictions. We’re going to talk a lot about that a lot about belief, conviction, and different things like that in this episode. So first, let me give the data. Today is Sunday, December 4th, 2022 starting at– let’s say I started at 12:17, 12:18… Oh, sorry. 2:17 or 2:18 pm in Denver, Colorado. And this is episode 379 of the Astrology Podcast. So where I usually start with these episodes is first talking about the credentials of my guests because with each of these episodes, I’ve been trying to have one or two astrologers on that have heavy placements in the signs that we’re talking about or have some placements in their birth chart in those signs. So I wanted to first ask you what placements you have in Sagittarius and what your Sagittarius credentials are for this episode. Which one of you wants to start?
RB: Maybe I’m an Aries rising so I might jump in and go first, Chris. How’s that sound?
CB: Okay, sure. Do you feel comfortable sharing your chart?
RB: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
CB: All right, here we go. For the audio listeners, Rob’s chart has late Aries rising and you have the Sun, Mercury, Neptune, and Uranus all in the sign of Sagittarius.
RB: Yeah, it’s a bit of a stellium when you check in those outer planets. But yeah, Sun and Mercury conjunct in Sag does sort of focus it all in there a bit. And I do have the ruler of my rising sign Aries in Virgo as well, which maybe balances the Sagittarius qualities out a little bit.
CB: Nice. Nice. I like that. That’s good. That’s good. As well as some Air signs with Venus in Aquarius on the degree of the midheaven, the Moon in Gemini, and Saturn in Pluto and the descendant in Libra in the seventh house.
RB: Yeah. I’m almost entirely air and fire, so that Mars in Virgo I was doing a lot of work to keep me grounded.
CB: Right. And then Jupiter in Scorpio.
RB: Yes, as well. Yeah, absolutely. So where all that Sagittarius stuff is going is to Scorpio. Perhaps that explains some of my esoteric interests and maybe my slightly darker sense of humor perhaps.
CB: Right. All right. Ashley, what about you? What are your credentials?
AP: I’m a Sag Sun and I have my North Node in Sagittarius as well. It’s not quite a stellium but I feel like they’re still pretty powerful and everywhere I go, everyone picks up on the Sag energy for sure.
CB: Nice. So for the audio listeners, you have late Taurus rising and you have the Sun at nine degrees of Sag and the North Node at 21 degrees of Sag in the eighth whole sign house.
CB: Brilliant. I was telling you your chart looks very familiar both because you have the same Moon in Aquarius and Mercury in Scorpio as me, but also I think your chart looks very similar to another guest, Becca Tarnas, who also has the Sun in Sag Taurus rising, Mercury in Scorpio, and Moon in Aquarius.
AP: And I love that astrologers have that kind of overlap, you tend to be drawn to people that have similar placements. And Rob, I noticed that he has Midheaven in Aquarius and so do I.
CB: That’s a good point. Interesting. Okay, good. All right. Well, I think those are pretty good credentials. I think you can both speak pretty authoritatively for the sign as representatives of the sign of Sagittarius here. Let me put up some graphics for those watching the video version of this. First, I want to start with the image from our poster which shows the signs of the zodiac and their basic qualities. We started way back in Aries earlier this year, which was the first sign of the zodiac after the vernal equinox, and now we’re all the way up to Jupiter which is the last sign of the zodiac just before the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere. So in terms of the credentials for Jupiter or for Sagittarius, I should say, Sagittarius the word– the Greek term– meant the Archer. And that’s part of the glyph for Sagittarius is it’s usually stylized as a sort of arrow that’s being shot up into the air. In terms of its other stats, Sagittarius is a masculine or diurnal sign. It’s said to be a fire sign or it’s said to be fiery. It’s a mutable sign. It’s one of the four mutable signs in terms of modality or quadruplicity. It also in the stoic elements said to be a hot sign because it’s a fire sign and fire rises upwards to the uppermost limits of the cosmos. In terms of the sign rulers and the dignities, Sagittarius is said to be ruled by the planet Jupiter, and it’s said to be the sign of the detriment or antithesis of Mercury because it’s opposite to one of Mercury’s home signs which is Gemini. Those are our basic stats for Sagittarius. It’s a diurnal fire, mutable hot sign ruled by the planet Jupiter.
All right, so where should we start here in terms of this? One of the things I’ve talked about a lot is the sequence of the signs of the zodiac and it seems like the signs of the zodiac often have a corrective function over the sign that came before it. So one of our starting points or contrasts might be a little bit of the contrast having done the Scorpio episode last month, and then talking about what it is then that Sagittarius brings that’s new or different or, you know, acts as a corrective or almost improving function to counterbalance the emphasis of the qualities of the sign that came before. And one of the things that came up in that last episode was this funny joke by an astrologer named Micah. They said that one of the things they like to do just to bother Scorpios at a bar or something is to say… The Scorpio says something to them and they say, “It’s really not that deep,” or “It’s not that deep.” So there’s like a seriousness and an intensity to Scorpio. And I think one of the primary things that I always notice when you get to Sagittarius is suddenly things lighten up a lot. It’s a lot more jokey, it’s a lot more jovial, a lot more gregarious, and there’s maybe a bigger sense even of optimism in some ways of this boundless sort of optimism and playfulness that acts as the contrast coming after Scorpio. What do you two think about that?
RB: Yeah, I really agree with that. I think it’s quite a contrast really when you move from Scorpio to Sagittarius, it’s like a real handbrake turn. I think this is an interesting follow-through in a way because Scorpio has a real great interest in the topic of truth, you know, getting to the bottom of things and really understanding what is the truth, what is the real nature of things. And I think Sagittarius shares that, but it also has a different perspective on it. So, Scorpio might have a more cold, hard look at truth whereas Sagittarius has a more optimistic take and tends to see the bright side of things. So there’s that interest in understanding things deeply, but Sagittarius sort of has an optimistic spin or maybe unkindly, we could say, like rose-tinted glasses perhaps.
RB: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that’s sort of the first thing that comes to my mind when I think about the contrast between those two signs. How about you, Ashley?
AP: I love all of those points and as you guys were saying, I feel like Sagittarius is kind of the light that comes after Scorpio and you have to think of Scorpio as the death and rebirth process kind of. And Sagittarius is what is blossoming from that rebirth. And I would see Scorpio as more of black and white and Sagittarius being more colorful. And definitely… Oh, go ahead.
CB: That’s a good point. So it’s almost like Sagittarius coming after Scorpio is the notion that there is almost life after death or a life after death potentially. Like even in those smaller instances in our lives where we go through a phase of things dying or things coming to an end and a close and there can be a darkness and sadness to that, Sagittarius is the one that comes after that says, “This is just one phase and if you look at it in the big picture, you know, it’s not the end necessarily.”
AP: Yeah, definitely. And I feel like Scorpio is almost more comfortable with being in a depressive state. I know depression is kind of Saturn but I would say they’re more comfortable with wallowing a little bit or looking at the darker side of things. Sagittarius is also comfortable with the dark side, but they’re a little bit more detached. Or Scorpios attached to whatever happened to them and Sagittarius just wants to move on, they don’t really think about the past anymore. They’re the bow and arrow that’s shot upward.
CB: That’s a really good point because Scorpio one of the things we talked about was having difficulty letting go and hanging on to things, whether it’s people or emotions or past conflicts or injuries or something like that that somebody did to the person. Versus Sagittarius has an easier time maybe letting go of things and moving forward.
AP: Yeah. And just another thing to touch on that actually, I feel like in a way all fire signs are really good at letting go and getting rid of things that no longer serve you, which is something that Sagittarius is great at. Scorpio can kind of hold on to things that don’t serve them any longer. And a great example I have of like think of fire, you use fire to cook your food. You use fire to cook meat to make it edible because it’s unsafe to eat that kind of stuff without cooking it, and it kills microorganisms that are not good for you. So again, it’s like Sagittarius and fire is letting go of things that are not good for you. Whereas Scorpio may kind of hang on to that. They’re fixed so they’re like, “Well, it’s really important to me whether it’s bad or not.” Sag doesn’t want any part of that because they want what’s best and they’re just moving forward.
CB: Right. Because Sagittarius is the third fire sign that we’ve encountered so far in the signs the zodiac, and it’s the one mutable sign. Mutable signs tend to be a bit more a lot more flexible and as opposed to Leo that was more of a fixed fire sign, Sagittarius as a mutable sign has greater ability to adjust and move around things perhaps instead of staying in one place.
CB: Change, yeah.
RB: Yeah, that’s a really good point. It reminds me of one of my other notes on the contrast between Scorpio and Sag, which is exactly that issue of the modality on this whole topic of truth and inquiry and things like that. Scorpio really wants to be certain and to have certainty about things whereas I think Sagittarius is more ready to embrace ambiguity and embrace things that are not necessarily completely settled. And I think that’s the mutable quality coming through that sort of bit. So looking at the big picture, things are complicated, things are messy. And Sagittarius is okay to be in that kind of messy space and reconciling different perspectives and different ways of thinking, whereas I think Scorpio really wants to hone in and really try and, you know– perhaps this is the Mars part as well– a fixed Mars wants to just hit the bullseye, Sagittarius is comfortable to kind of have more of a spread around the target, if you like.
CB: Yeah, I like that. Because that goes back to that analogy I’ve mentioned many times that Robert Zoller always gave me. He said that… He said Aries is like a machine gun fire versus Scorpio is like a sniper rifle. It’s just like a single piercing shot that’s right on the target. But then when you get to Sagittarius again, it’s just like a hail of shooting arrows every direction and eventually some of them will hit the target or many targets.
RB: Yeah, I do have a barrage of arrows or artillery or something, this is getting a bit [unintelligible] but maybe that’s my Aries rising coming through. But you know, you don’t have to hit to be effective. As long as enough hit, then you’ve done the job. So it’s a little bit similar in that way. Yeah.
AP: And with Jupiter, you think Jupiter is expansion. And we have so many opportunities, we feel there’s so many arrows we have, why would we focus so much on the one arrow when we have so many chances? I was listening to the Aries episode with Rick Levine and I think he mentioned that Aries is like a ready, fire, aim instead of ready, aim, fire. And I feel like Sagittarius is pretty similar. We do tend to hit the bull’s eye because we’re archers, we’re hunters. But we are kind of a ready, fire, aim as well where we don’t really think of the consequences until we’ve already fired.
RB: A fire-sign enthusiasm where we’re excited to get started, and sometimes we don’t do that prep work that Scorpio would do.
AP: AP: Blind optimism that Scorpio may see as naive, like, “Why aren’t you taking more time to think about this?” But Sagittarius kind of needs that blind optimism to make certain things happen if you didn’t have this strong belief in, “I can do anything. I really can do anything I set my mind to.” Because again, Sagittarius is a perfect blend of the animal instinct, the animal side, and then humanity. So it’s kind of like the blend of that. And if we set our minds to it, we can physically do it. [chuckles]
RB: I was thinking of that human and animal contrast in Sagittarius. I think the ancient or medieval books would certainly talk about the first part of Sagittarius being the human and the second part of the sign being bestial or the other way around. I can’t remember which way it goes. But they would divide the sign up in that way and say that, you know, the first half is more human and the other half is more animal in nature, and that combination comes through in lots of different ways.
CB: I like that point about optimism and just being the first Jupiter-ruled sign, because most of the other signs except for the two Saturn-ruled signs we’ve already encountered one version of so far with Venus’s two signs or Mercury’s two signs or what have you. This is the first time in this series that we’ve encountered Jupiter. And one of the things about Jupiter is just that it affirms and it confirms things and it has a very positive, you know, Jupiter being the greater benefit or the larger and more positive of the two benefic planets between Venus and Jupiter, there is this underlying sort of unbridled optimism that sometimes comes with Sagittarius or people with heavy Sagittarius placements. One of the astrologers I always think of every time I think of Sagittarius is an astrologer who unfortunately passed away a number of years ago but his name was Kelly Lee Phipps. And he just had this stellium in Sagittarius, so he had Sagittarius rising, like the Ascendant at 18 degrees of Sagittarius. And then he had Neptune, Jupiter, Mars and Venus all in Sagittarius in the first whole sign house. This guy was just a bundle of unbridled enthusiasm, and it was sometimes over the top, but it could be so disarming that he could just come up and embrace anybody with this enthusiasm. And he had that also for projects. It reminded me of this project that he did where he wanted- He suddenly just got the idea he wanted to make a documentary about astrology where he interviewed a bunch of astrologers, and he kind of made it like that movie in the mid-2000s, What the Bleep Do We Know!? He wanted to do an astrology version of that. And he didn’t have any experience doing filmmaking or interviews or video editing or anything else. He’s just like, “I want to do this, and I’m gonna do it.” So he just set an intention for doing it and then he started manifesting it. And he got… He raised funds– a client or somebody wrote him a check for $20,000 or something and he bought all this video equipment and then he just goes out and starts interviewing astrologers at conferences over the course the next few years. If you watch the video, it’s like his first interviews weren’t very good because he was just learning as he went about doing audio and video. And he had some interviews where he was outside and the wind was blowing so the audio was all messed up but it didn’t matter because instead of needing plan every little detail and everything out ahead of time, which maybe for some people would have stopped them in their tracks by losing the momentum and not being able to finish the project because they never took the first step, his enthusiasm and just belief in himself and in what the vision is that he’s had in his mind and his optimism just sort of carried him through the project eventually in the end. And he was able to see that to completion as one of the major things in terms of his life work before he passed away prematurely from cancer at a relatively young age. But I always think of his optimism and enthusiasm as one of his core traits.
RB: And that does make a good contrast with the more sort of skeptical or cynical or, you know, careful approach of Scorpio. Because I think a Scorpio wouldn’t dive in in that way they would, they would much prefer to do a lot of preparation and come in when they know that they’re ready and they’ve got that mastery, rather than just having the optimism that this will work out somehow. We’ll figure it out on the way.
CB: Yeah, and that’s really the contrast with really especially the two adjacent quote-unquote malefic ruled signs, which are Scorpio right before Sagittarius and then Capricorn right after. Because then with Capricorn, you get another corrective function where suddenly Capricorn is much more cautious, it is much more pessimistic, it is wanting to plan for the long term and what the long-term goal is and just to have that sort of insight. So with both of those. But it’s like Sagittarius is just this super optimistic island that’s just sandwiched in between these otherwise little bit more pessimistic signs in some ways.
RB: That’s a really good point. It’s sort of like there’s an interesting flow through those three signs were Scorpio has that kind of, “Let’s look at the cold hard reality of things. Let’s pick up the rock and look at the bugs that are crawling around underneath.” You know? And then Jupiter says, “Well, hold on a minute. If you zoom out and you look at the big picture of things, life’s actually amazing and beautiful and wonderful. Look at how the stars turn and look at how life grows and flourishes. Isn’t it amazing to be here?” And then Capricorn comes in and says, “Yes. But ultimately, everything will die and the Sun will go out and the universe will be cold and dead.” [laughs] So instead of zooming out layer by layer, ultimately Saturn as the highest visible planet is the final word on things, and there’s a sort of a somber note that we’re left with with Capricorn.
CB: Right. Yeah, for sure. So, Camille Michelle Gray actually helped with some of the research going into this episode. One of the things that she wrote for Capricorn’s corrective function over Sagittarius is that Capricorn corrects Sagittarius with dedication, focus on an end goal, sobered thought, methodological approach, delayed gratification, willingness to go it alone, practicality and risk aversion, which is a good keyword I think for Capricorn as well. I think by contrast, Sagittarius doesn’t have as much risk aversion necessarily.
RB: That’s true. That’s another good contrast with Scorpio is that I think there’s an openness that Sagittarius and almost a trusting quality. We tend to think the best of people and then we’re often surprised and shocked when people are not as good as we think they are. Scorpio I think might look at Sagittarius’s openness and trusting nature with almost concern or worried that this person is going to get hurt. Because Scorpio has that defensive quality to it while Sagittarius is taking off his armor and just saying, “Here I am. Who could ever hate me?” [laughs]
AP: Yeah. I feel like, too… So you guys were kind of mentioning Capricorn stuff a little bit and I think a word that is shared with Sagittarius and Capricorn is broad-mindedness, and I do think that they’re very different types of broad-mindedness. Of course, we’ve talked about a Sagittarius is more positive whereas Capricorn is going to be a little bit more realistic and really look at the consequences. They’re going to think before they act think before they do anything and they’re a little more disciplined in themselves, kind of like Scorpio. And Sagittarius would rather procrastinate and just act on impulse.
RB: It’s a more measured approach with Capricorn like, “Let’s take the steps up the mountain one after the other to steadily towards the goal.” Whereas Sagittarius is more sort of flippy fluffy like, “When inspiration strikes, we’ll make great strides.” But yes, there is a procrastinating side as well. I really like what you said about the broad perspective of both of those signs. But I think because they’re ruled by the planets that are the highest up in the traditional cosmos and the highest visible planets, both Jupiter and Saturn sit above and look down on things from that very high perspective. But they have a different take on things. They have a different… Their conclusion from that perspective is different.
CB: Yeah, that’s a really good point. And I liked what you said, Rob, about making great strides and speed because I think that was something that really came up and I’ve really gotten a better sense of this year for Aries. The need for speed is a very Aries-type thing or a core function of Aries. And the other sign that’s like that, actually, that’s very quick and doing things fast and taking great leaps or strides is definitely Sagittarius.
RB: Thus rule the thighs, doesn’t it? In the zodiac, the body are the assignment of different zodiac signs to the human body. It rules the thighs, the powerful muscles that drive the legs.
AP: Yeah. Gets us moving, allows us to take that action moving forward. We couldn’t move forward if we couldn’t move our legs.
RB: Yeah. That’s what you said earlier, Ashley, about always moving forward and always thinking what’s next, and trying not to look back too much. So it’s interesting how these ideas kind of combine.
CB: That’s a good point. That’s a good core thing; looking forward as opposed to looking back.
RB: Mhm, the arrow only goes one way.
CB: Right. Yeah. Versus other signs like Scorpio and Capricorn that are more backwards looking or sometimes focused on the past. Maybe not exclusively, but certainly more so.
AP: Or even… I feel like they are a little more present even, could be past or present. Whereas Sagittarius is looking into the future with their arrow, they’re looking forward. Like, looking forward future. And possibilities, anything is possible in the future, right? And that is the epitome of Sagittarius, is anything as possible.
CB: Right. All right. I’m trying to think if we have any good chart examples that are related to any of that of forward-thinking people. The only one that comes to immediate mind is just Einstein and somebody I had been looking at their biography. And I know Ashley you mentioned him because he has cancer rising and he had the Moon in Sagittarius in the sixth whole sign house. And while people often focus on him as a Pisces– he has a Sun in Pisces in the ninth whole sign house with the midheaven, which is as true and is a major part of his being able to think outside of the box, I think there is also a major element there with Sagittarius as well in terms of the forward-thinkingness and sort of being ahead of his time in some ways.
AP: And he obviously carries strong Jupiter energy with having a Sun and Moon in signs that are ruled by Jupiter. That’s pretty interesting.
CB: Yeah, that’s a good point.
RB: I was wondering whether Walt Disney might be a good example of someone who’s looking to the future and innovating as well with his career in animation being very, you know, looking ahead and trying to push the boundaries of what you can do with that form of art. For example with the first animated film with sound and then the first feature-length animated film. And he was always thinking of, “What else can I do with this medium?” Or Fantasia, you know? These are all sort of very big ideas, big projects… Yeah, so he’s pushing the field forward.
CB: And for the audio listeners, it looks like we may have a time chart. If this is correct, he had Virgo rising and he had the Sun conjunct Uranus in Sagittarius in the fourth whole sign house, or the third quadrant house because the IC is there at 24 degrees. So that’s… Go ahead.
AP: Oh, I’m sorry. I was just gonna say that to me, it speaks as him bringing all of those qualities that Rob just talked about. Bringing it home and personal and making it almost relatable in a way. And, I mean, Disney speaks to everybody. I feel like everyone’s seen a Disney movie or, you know, that’s been a part of their life somehow.
CB: Yes. And one that’s interesting is a lot of what Disney did was took– because the fourth house is of family but also ancestry and the past and the things that you inherit from the past and from your family– what he took is he took a lot of old fairy tales and a lot of old cultural stories and stuff that had been passed down for a very long time, and then sort of reinterpreted those in a modern context through those animated films.
AP: Yeah, and you can look at these stories in a way as a sort of mythology, too. And I would relate that to Sagittarius as like symbolism and, you know, storytelling. I feel like storytelling is also a good Sagittarius word. It’s like wanting to share ideas and share these things. And like you said, with the fourth house being kind of the past, it’s bringing history forward and making it creative– a creative way to share it with people. And it’s like, “Oh, an innocent and it’s Disney. It’s a cartoon.” But these are like real past stories that are maybe a little difficult to really look at, but he makes it palpable and shareable. He’s a great storyteller and I would say pioneer in that industry.
CB: Yeah, and the other big picture thing is also building those huge things like Disney World and Disneyland. And some of those were also very forward-thinking, but also huge in terms of scale and like thinking big-picture and long term rather than something small or more isolated.
RB: Yeah, that’s a really good point. Disney World, Disneyland. I think people would criticize him for being so optimistic and having these big ideas that they thought wouldn’t work out. People called Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs Disney’s folly when it first came out because they thought it was just a massive waste of money and energy and that it wouldn’t be successful. But he believed in his dreams, he believed that this would work. There’s a funny story about him apparently being very bad at business and not really being very successful initially. Until he brought his brother in and the brother took care of the business side of things while Walt focused on his creativity. And I think that’s a thing that often comes up with Sagittarius, is a disregard for what’s going on around your everyday mundane things while you’re focusing on your big dreams and your big plans. And sometimes Sagittarius needs someone around them like perhaps someone with some Virgo or Capricorn placements to help them to actually achieve what they want to achieve. Because they’re all about the ideas, but then actually making it into a reality is sometimes a bit more hard.
AP: Yeah. And I feel like that’s where the corrective function of Capricorn comes back into, is allowing that structure and the things that need to be taken care of so that the Sag can have fun and be optimistic and pursue these crazy wild dreams. And then Capricorn can take care of the responsibilities.
RB: We need that, like the admin support or the accountant or something.
AP: Yes. Like, “Dad, you can do this!” Right?
CB: This sort of reminded me of this anecdote that Disneyland had actually a disastrous opening in first day, and I just did a really quick search and came up with this article where it says ’10 things that went disastrously wrong in Disneyland’s opening day.’ And it had this funny line at the beginning where it says “Disneyland is commonly known as the happiest place on Earth.” I think that’s really funny for a Sagittarius, like Walt Disney Sun and Uranus in the fourth house and just creating a place known as the happiest place on Earth. But it says, “But when that park opened in 1955, it didn’t live up to its now ubiquitous nickname. In fact, Disney employees who survived the day refer to it as Black Sunday.” So it’s just funny in terms of that whole, you know, having a big picture and going for it and launching it, but then sometimes they can stumble early on because it’s not always perfectly planned or thought out ahead of time.
RB: Actually I had a great little anecdote I wanted to tell or story I wanted to tell on this that talks about this issue of Sagittarius focusing on the big picture and missing the details and what’s in front of them, which is an old story that comes up in Aesop’s Fables. But it’s also present in… I think the earliest telling of it is in a dialogue of Plato, I think it’s called the [Cratylus]. I’m probably massacring that Greek word. In the dialogue, they’re talking about the difference between philosophers and ordinary people and Plato uses it as an example, the story of the philosopher Thales who was one of the earliest Greek philosophers on record. There’s a story of him walking through a field at night and gazing up at the stars and wandering at the stars and wondering how they work, and just inspired and full of awe at the mystery of the heavens. And then he trips and falls into a well, and there’s a field hand nearby, a female. She comes up and she helps this guy out of the well. And she scolds him and she says, “Oh, Thales. You’re always looking up at the heavens and wondering what’s going on in the heavens, but you don’t even know what’s happening at your feet.” And I think that is a great Sagittarius anecdote, I think that fits really well with the Sagittarius archetype where our minds are off looking and contemplating big ideas in the beauty and wonder of things, but we often miss what’s happening around us and things that are actually really important for our safety and well-being sometimes as well.
AP: And I feel like that reminds me that there is this deep within good and bad within Sagittarius. Like, there’s this positive great side to Sagittarius but there is a balance needed because there is a dark side to Sagittarius. I think, you know, they’re coming from the Scorpio. And like you said, I mean falling into the well. Like, if you’re only focused on these good things and not paying attention to the bad, then you’re going to be disappointed when things don’t go your way. And I do think of Jupiter as kind of getting your head lost in the clouds a little bit. It’s important for Sagittarius to stay grounded and reminded of reality and not just always looking to the heavens looking, you know, “What does this mean? Oh, maybe the answer’s right here.”
CB: Right. That’s funny that story, Rob, because there’s a later adaptation of that in something called the Alexander Romance, which is this series of stories that were fanciful stories in the Roman Empire about Alexander the Great. And one of them it had to do… It was the same setup, except it was a young child Alexander the Great who was being taught by an astrologer. And the astrologer was off watching the stars one day and just looking at the sky and walking and talking and waxing very philosophical things, but then he fell into a hole and hurt himself. And Alexander says something negative about it like, “Maybe you should pay more attention to where you’re walking, astrologer,” or something like that. So there’s a funny astrology version of that story as well.
RB: Yeah, I’ve heard that it came up in attacks on astrologers in the 17th century. Like, it became a popular way to mock astrologers for being aloof and disconnected from reality. So yeah, it’s got a funny pertinence to line of our podcast, I suppose. [laughs] Yeah. I was just gonna say… Well, something you said Ashley about the dark side of Sag, it’s worth talking about that. Because in my personal life, I know a great many Sagittariuses as they seem to gather around me. But a lot of them have actually been through great periods of sadness and depression in their lives. It’s something I’ve noticed. I think part of that can be that the optimism and that sort of childlike wonder and that openness and trusting quality of Sagittarius can be really badly hurt. And if they experience a major setback or if they experience cruelty towards them or hatred towards them, or if they are bullied or victimized or those kinds of experiences, it can be really difficult for a Sagittarius to actually recover from that because they lose their optimism in that moment. And they lose their joy and that [surerity]. And sometimes digging yourself out of that hole is really difficult. So there’s a vulnerability to Sagittarius because they are so focused on the positive that if that’s robbed from them, then it’s very difficult for them to recover from it.
CB: Yeah, that’s really important and I’ve noticed that as well as something Sagittariuses can struggle with versus let’s say Capricorns or people with heavy Saturn placements as they can feel like their fire is being squelched if a Saturn-influence person is more pessimistic or something. It can feel stifling because the Sagittarius almost needs to have that hope and optimism in order to drive them forward and when somebody’s throwing water on that fire a little bit too much, it can feel like their flame is starting to suffer or starting to struggle as a result.
AP: Yeah, and that makes me think of not necessarily making this a negative side to Sag, but it could be detrimental I guess. I mean, going back to the bow and arrow, you know, optimism always moving forward… We love to have goals, we do like to achieve, we like to always have something to be aiming toward. We’re always, you know, we’re hunting something. We always want to be hunting for something and once we achieve what we’ve been hunting or what we’ve been shooting for, then we lose a little bit of ourselves because we don’t have a goal anymore and we don’t have that thing to chase anymore. So I’ve noticed that with myself, I have so many things that I’m interested in because if I achieve one of them, then I’m just stagnant at that point. I feel like we always need something new to set our minds to. And that might be worth balancing as not being too overly optimistic that you’re forgetting about all these other things in your life and other goals.
CB: Yeah, that’s a good point. The other thing that can be tricky sometimes with that type of optimism is that sometimes you get into almost magical thinking, which sometimes works out for those people that the optimism actually carries it through and it has this weird reinforcing loop effect of like, because the person is so optimistic and thinks they can accomplish things, they try to accomplish more and are sometimes more successful as a result of that or have luck. They just happen to be lucky as a trait to some extent and more successful in accomplishing some things than other people. And sometimes they can get into the mindset of manifest, that everything’s being manifested through their optimism with the secret or something like that. And then sometimes the shadow side of that can be not understanding that not everybody else is that lucky, or that there are people that fall into hard times and it’s not necessarily their fault. So sometimes they can become almost like victim-blaming in a way by assuming that if everybody was just as optimistic or thought and tried to manifest things, that it would work out the same for everybody, and not really getting it when that’s not equally true for every person.
AP: Yeah, definitely. That also reminds me, too, that it is difficult for Sagittarians sometimes to see other people’s views. Because they’re so set in their way of thinking and the tools that they’re equipped with that, you know, I feel like we can kind of have that god complex or superiority complex where it’s like, “I’m right and what you’re doing is wrong. And I don’t know why you’re not just doing it the way that I’m doing it, because it works out for me and I’m lucky.” [laughs] And I just feel like that’s something that we really need to keep in mind and not judge and criticize other people. Because our side of the truth is valid, but there are many sides of truth, not just the Sag side. And I think that’s kind of where Gemini actually does this a bit better, I guess. They are the twins so they’re naturally inclined to seeing two sides or seeing another side or having that duality where they’re like, “Okay, there is another opinion here where Sagittarius is a little bit opposite. It’s a little different.” And they’re like, “Well, my truth is right,” and you know, struggle seeing other people’s sides sometimes.
RB: There is a judgmental quality to Sagittarius, I think. I’m reminded of the way that in medieval astrology, they would assign Jupiter to the figure of the judge, you know, or the person who has that position of authority. And so Sagittarius often has that feeling that “I am the arbiter of the truth, I am the judge, and I have the authority to say what’s right and wrong.” So there’s almost like a– in a good way– it can create kind of a noble spirit in someone. But on the downside, it can create a kind of arrogant way of thinking about things where you just think that you’ve got it all figured out. You know, I’ve thought about this and I know that it’s right because I feel it deeply and this is something that inspires me and fills me with this feeling of truth, so your perspective can’t be right because that will take away that feeling for me. And I think yeah, it’s a another sort of shadow side of Sagittarius, is this need to be right and this need to appear authoritative. And I think one of them things that Sagittarius fears a lot is being shown to be wrong or being made to look foolish or silly, even though we’re very good at making ourselves look that way. [laughs]
AP: But only if we make ourselves look silly, no one is.
RB: Yeah, we’re allowed to mock ourselves, but no one else is allowed to mock us. Yeah, I had to put it an aloof quality and a kind of proud or dignified feeling to Sagittarius. They have a bit of dignity and pride in themselves, and one way to really make a Sagittarius angry and bring out that fire is to mock them or insult them or publicly humiliate them. That is something that Sagittarius just absolutely cannot stand and that’s when you’ll see some of the anger and that divine fury, if you like, the Sagittarius trait comes through.
CB: One of the phrases that I’m thinking of now that as both of you are saying this and I think would be a perfect phrase for Sagittarius is the passion of a convert. Have you ever heard of this? I looked up the definition on Wiktionary and it says… One, it says “The extreme enthusiasm shown by a person who is recently taken to a new task or a new set of beliefs.” So it gives an example; “Jim showed the passion of a convert when he became a vegan.” It’s like an observation that sometimes people grow up in a certain religious setting with a certain religion are kind of used to it and they understand the pros and cons and everything and have sometimes a moderate approach to things. But sometimes when somebody converts to a new religion or they find a new belief system or a new approach or even a new way of doing things, they’re so enthusiastic about it that they want to spread it around and tell everybody about it and sort of become an evangelist for that thing. I think sometimes that can be a Sagittarius trait, it’s one of the ones that Camille wrote down here; the evangelist, the missionary, the know-it-all, truthiness, and sometimes even going over into being dogmatic or even rigid in some instances.
RB: Yeah, in my personal life I have been that person several times. I can think of at least two examples. One was when I– they’re both kind of related– when I got into astrology. I was particularly interested in traditional astrology, and I became something of a traditional astrology chauvinist, I guess. I was like, “Oh, you do modern astrology. That’s okay for you. But I’m interested in the real astrology.” Quote-unquote. I was really awful about that for a few years, and it was interesting that that coincided as well with my resurging interest in religion. I must have had some big ninth-house activation or something at this time. But I’d be going into astrology as well as sort of rediscovering my faith, and started going back to church and things like this. I wasn’t as insufferable about my religion as I was about astrology actually, but I did have that passion of the convert when it came to re-embracing my Christian tradition. And I was taking things probably a bit too far in terms of like, in Lent I just went crazy with self-denial and things like that. I just took it to an extreme in a way that was really noticeable to people around me that were like, “Whoa, where’s this coming from?” [laughs] I’ve mellowed out a lot since then but it’s funny to reflect that I have been that person. And it’s a tendency that I have to moderate.
CB: Have you had a specific instance of that, Ashley, or a phase of something like that?
AP: I mean, your example also of the traditional versus modern, like, “Oh, the way that I study this is right.” And really, that’s where it goes back into there’s more than one side to the truth. There’s a lot of different languages in the world, which language, Sagittarius? And you could be saying the same thing but it’s in a different language. And it doesn’t mean that it’s wrong, you’re still conveying the same kind of ideas. So yeah, I’ve definitely had that struggle. I don’t know if this is related but I have this in my notes. My dad is a Sagittarius also and I remember when I was a kid, he would just so seriously tell me all the time that he knows everything. He literally knows everything in the world. And I could ask him anything and he could tell it to me. Like, “I know everything, Ashley,” and I’m just like, “How? How are you a book? How do you know everything?” And as I grow older, I’m like, “You don’t know everything.” But just having that like, “I’m right and I know everything and I’m the master, you can come to me if you need to learn anything.” And I think, too, being mutable does kind of work in our favour. We give that, “Oh, we know everything and you can come to us with something and we’ll figure out that answer for you.” We’re broad and enough that we’re willing to research and learn it, but we’re gonna lie ahead of time and say we already know it. [laughter]
RB: I have a Sagittarius father as well, Ashley, and my condolences that story triggered some memories in me about my own father who… Yeah, he did that definitely. He’s still alive, he has that know-it-all quality to him. I mean, in some level it’s justified because he spends a lot of time reading very widely about all sorts of different topics. He’s very intellectual. And I think that’s another trait in Sagittarius. It’s like we love to learn, it’s the eternal student archetype. And a few different signs have this quality of Sagittarius as well; this passion for learning. Often always learning and preferring to be in that learning space, preferring to be in that kind of academic attached place of books and documentary films and absorbing knowledge. Like, I read Wikipedia for fun. That’s the kind of person that I am, you know? And my dad’s kind of similar in that way. And then it’s humbling when you actually don’t know the answer to something and you don’t actually have all the answers, you don’t actually have all the knowledge. Yeah, a lot of Sagittariuses I know are very intelligent people and absorb a huge amount of information. But actually conveying that to other people can be challenging and doesn’t necessarily always help them with their lives as well. They’re very smart but that doesn’t necessarily translate into material success in this lifetime.
CB: Yeah. Knowing a lot about a bunch of different things like travelling or wandering around collecting little bits of knowledge everywhere, but that not always necessarily being practical knowledge that’s immediately useful per se.
RB: Yeah, it’s like the intellectual magpie that just collects lots of shiny things and puts it in the nest. It’s almost just like– what do you call it? Like a dissociation trait. Like you’re doing this because it’s easier than dealing with real life. It’s more fun to be in the library than to actually sit with your problems and the mistakes you’ve made and sit and actually reflect on what’s actually happened to you. You can just retreat to the study or put on a documentary and be transported away from things.
CB: Yeah, or… Go ahead.
AP: I was just gonna say, that kind of goes back to the whole centaur thing, too, you know? Being half humanity half animal, we can almost easily get our heads in the clouds or out of reality and just learning and bookworms or documentary worms. But I feel like we are able to be grounded if we’re aware of it, because we do have that animal side to us where we can come back to reality and then we can switch back and forth between learning and doing physical things. Another thing I just wanted to touch on too, you know, we love learning, we love always reading books and knowing everything. Which Gemini also does. You said a lot of other signs are like this too but I think the difference with Sagittarius and what gives us that superiority feeling is we like to be the teacher. We’re not just learning for our own selves, but it’s to be the conveyor of these ideas. We want to preach these things to people, we want to implement these rather than just like, “Oh, it’s just for fun.” It is kind of just for fun, but it’s also to help others and be able to say that we know these things. And when we don’t actually know something, it can be exciting. Like, it is something new and I feel like that’s the fuel that we’re always looking for. Gasoline keeps the fire roaring and if you run out of gasoline, how are you going to keep going? So it’s kind of like that. Every once in a while you find something that you don’t know, that’s the fuel, that’s more gasoline. I feel like that is beneficial to us to not know at all.
CB: Yeah, always needing or wanting new horizons to explore or something like that. That also gives me the image of the scholar or the academic that knows 10 different languages but doesn’t know how to change a tire on a car or something like that. It’s philosophical or academic or religious or other big-picture learning of big-picture things in the universe. Like Einstein coming up with the theory of relativity or what have you, but it not being necessarily always just small-term practical-type knowledge like how to change a tire or something like that.
AP: Like, can you actually apply this to your life, or is it just an idea?
RB: Yeah, yeah. Actually my professor… Actually, my professor is definitely like a Sagittarius archetype for sure.
CB: Totally. That actually just reminded me of David Pingree who’s a famous classic scholar and scholar on the history of science and history of astrology. I don’t have a birth time for him but I do know that he had Venus and Mercury in the sign of Sagittarius, as well as Jupiter and Mars and Neptune in the South Node in the sign of Virgo. And he was just this… He was a polyglot, which means that he had this ability with languages and he knew like 20 different languages. He knew every modern European language, he could read French and Spanish and German and everything else, but then he also knew all of these ancient languages like ancient Greek and Arabic and Akkadian and Latin and middle Persian and everything else. He also knew Sanskrit so in his PhD dissertation, he did this book called [unintelligible 00:25:48], which was an early Sanskrit text on astrology where he argued in his dissertation that this text was originally a Greek astrological text that had been translated into Sanskrit. And so for his PhD dissertation, he made a critical edition of reconstructing the original text of the [00:26:09] in Sanskrit. He translated that in English, but then also he wrote a second volume that was commentary on that where he went through and quoted every ancient Western author as well as Indian author that he could in their original language, in order to demonstrate how the doctrines in these texts were similar or connected. But if you pick up the second volume and read his commentary, he’ll be writing in English and then he’ll quote a Medieval astrologer in Arabic and he’ll write it out in Arabic. So it’s like you have to know Arabic to read that passage. And then he’ll quote another author in Latin or he’ll quote another author in Sanskrit or… He’d just keep going through different languages because he knows all of these languages due to that big-picture sort of thing.
RB: It’s amazing, what an impressive man. But then one wonders like, could he change a tire on his car and things like that. But that’s it, and it’s an amazing talent. And a lot of Sagittariuses if you sit down and talk with them, they will divulge that they have this vast learning on something that they’re passionate about. But then yeah, there was that lack of… Maybe you wonder is there a practical application to this apart from being fascinating in an academic context? The layperson is not going to be interested in these esoteric things, even though they’re absolutely fascinating to people in that field and a great gift to people in that field.
CB: It makes me think of the Library of Alexandria originally how it was actually supposed to be a scholarly institute that was funded by the state and there would be these scholars that would go and live there and just work in the library and do this amazing scholarship, but then they would have their basic necessities kind of paid for where they would go and be able to eat food, you know, for free and then just go back to work on their scholarly stuff, so that they didn’t have to deal with the basic necessities of life and could focus on these scholarly pursuits most of the time.
AP: That reminds me, too, of certain religions and monks, for example. They totally leave civilization and reality in a way to focus on these higher things and to work within, rather than worrying about food and how am I going to change this tire? They don’t even have to worry about that. I think that definitely ties in with Sag as well. But it is important to have a balance.
CB: Yeah, for sure. And things can become unbalanced. It reminded me we’ve talked about religion and the passion of the convert, but that also comes up for politics. Sometimes you’ll see people that have heavy Sagittarius placements get into a new political thing and then become very adamant or very much of an advocate about that, sometimes to an extreme or sometimes going over the top.
RB: Yes. Yes, it doesn’t matter. It’s not necessarily always philosophical things or spiritual things. It can also be politics, or sometimes people get really interested in science. It’s another Sagittarius quality. But it’s always something that’s kind of high-minded, I guess. Maybe that’s the right word. It’s a lofty kind of topic. So politics is, while it does have a very practical and real effects on our lives, there’s also kind of a theoretical idealistic side to politics. We’re talking about big ideas like what’s the right way to live? What’s the right way to govern? These are sort of big-picture things.
CB: Yeah, I’ve only started to understand in the past few years how intertwined belief in religion and politics are. Because we always think about our politics so much as these well-thought-out logical things of “I have this political belief because of X deduction or whatever. This is practically speaking why I think this is right or what have you,” but oftentimes we don’t realize that our beliefs are a little bit less rational sometimes and the reason why we go in certain directions is a little bit more belief-based than we might think in terms of our politics. And it’s a bit more similar in that way to sometimes like religious things than we might think.
AP: Yeah. And bringing up politics– because we’ve talked a lot about religion and being the priest or the priestess, that kind of thing– but I feel like Sagittarius is especially drawn to topics that are touchy subjects to the majority of people; politics, religion, science, all of that stuff. And I think that’s a fire quality. We like causing disruption a little bit. We don’t want it to be so comfortable except for ourselves because we’re right. [laughs] We want to be comfortable. But yeah, that’s something I’ve noticed. We just love controversial issues.
RB: Yeah, just like to upset people at a dinner party is Sagittarius’s favorite thing. “Let’s talk about this really tough thing that happened in history that’s awful,” and everyone around you is like, “Oh my god, we’re just trying to have a nice conversation.” [laughs]
AP: Yeah, “Here she comes talking about the occult again.” And I’m like, “Yeah, let me tell you. And I brought my Satanic Bible today.” You know? [Rob laughs]. It’s just very weird things. [laughs]
CB: Here’s the… Well, there’s a point there that’s actually really funny; the edgy sort of thing of… Yeah, the Sagittarius could be the person that’s edgy. I remember I did an episode earlier this year with a couple of astrology skeptics and I think the title was how to talk about astrology to non-astrologers or to skeptics of astrology. And one of the guys did mention that he was in the Church of Satan, but what he meant by that was he believed in science and he was an atheist and other things like that. He didn’t actually believe in the Christian idea of Satan, but it was just kind of a thing that he said to be edgy to troll Christians in a way.
AP: I definitely relate to that. Sometimes you just want to be the badass or you want to make people uncomfortable. [laughs]
CB: That’s so funny because that’s so similar to Aries, where Aries wants to be a badass by driving fast and breaking the speed limit rules, but Sagittarius wants to be edgy by breaking the moral philosophical rules or something like that.
AP: And we’re right next to Capricorns so it’s like… I mean, they deal with structures and we’re kind of disrupting them.
CB: Yeah, I like that. Well, one of the politics people that comes to mind that Camille mentioned was Jon Stewart who was the host of The Daily Show on Comedy Central for many years, and sort of fell into this role where he was just a comedian but he was a comedian that had some interest in politics. And then he ended up being the second host of The Daily Show and ended up somehow in the US becoming this political figure, basically, because he would do commentary and– what’s the word when you’re kind of making fun of something– satire of politicians, which during for example the Bush administration he would sometimes just point out the hypocrisy in a funny context to some of the stuff that they would say. Yeah, so that’s a really good example because it’s somebody blending both politics as well as humor and comedy. We don’t have a birth time for him, unfortunately. Somebody asked him… Patrick Watson and I actually wrote a blog called The Political Astrology blog years ago and there was this clip once at the beginning of The Daily Show where somebody in the audience asked him his birth time and he was just like, “I have no idea,” and he kind of blew off the comment. But that was our last shot at it. Hopefully, somebody else will find it out someday but for-
AP: I appreciate whoever tried. [chuckles]
CB: Yeah, kudos to whoever gave it a shot. I appreciate that. So for the audio listeners, John Stewart has the Sun, Mercury, and possibly the Moon in Sagittarius. The Moon here in this noon chart is at 22 so it’s a pretty good chance that he was born just after a New Moon in Sagittarius, basically.
RB: That’s a lot of Sag. Yeah, you can see that in his personality and that combination of humor, but also he definitely had his beliefs about politics. Like, he was pretty firm about where he landed and a lot of this work on that show was using humor to convey and sort of spread his perspective on the politics of the day. Yeah. And it was a hugely influential show. I mean, I watched it and I was in Australia. That shows you the reach of the show. It’s all about American politics but just because of the humor, and also just the fact that America has that sort of hegemony that what happens over there affects us too over here, so we follow politics in America as well. So I enjoyed watching the show when he was hosting for many years, actually. Yeah.
CB: Yeah, and it’s interesting he’s come back recently and is doing a show again for Apple or something like that, which is kind of interesting because I noticed he has Saturn in Aquarius, so that means he’s been completing his second Saturn return over the course of the past three years since 2020 as he’s come back to hosting shows like that again after quitting The Daily Show back in 2016, 2015-2016 or something like that. Which reminds me of actually Conan O’Brien who I’d noted recently has done the same thing where he’s completed his Saturn return over the past few years and he stopped doing hosting a comedy show on television every night and now he’s switched to doing a podcast and has become super successful in that after a 30-year cycle, where during his first Saturn return that was when he first became the host of a Late Show.
AP: Yeah, and I do just want to touch on the comedy thing again because I feel like that is a very powerful tool that we use to convey our touchy ideas and beliefs. Because you look at almost any comedy that’s out there, some of it that’s on TV today I’m like, “How is this on TV? How is this okay to be said right now?” But because it’s a comedy skit, it’s acceptable. And Sag uses that as a tool to remain that friendly. We like to get along with people, we do like being in a community and very social. So we don’t want to be disrupting too much, but we do feel the need to get our opinions out there and I feel like a lot of comedians do so by using comedy.
CB: Yeah. That’s a good point that it’s become a means for conveying certain things, or sometimes people use it for more political like activist’s takes on things through comedy. But yeah, there’s a real value just in and of itself of comedy in and of itself. And one of the interesting things recently over the past few years is so many of the comedians seem to almost all agree on this fundamental thing that stand-up comedians, where they want to have the freedom to talk about anything or to attempt to make jokes about anything, and some of them are getting pushing back or getting nervous about some of the constraints about saying, “No, you can’t say that, that topic is off limits or what have you.” You know, whether rightly or wrongly, I’m not really making a value judgment myself, it’s just something I’ve been observing over the past several years. Because I watch a lot of different comedy podcasts and it’s interesting seeing that many of them seem to, or a large majority seem to share this view that they should have the freedom to just try anything and do anything and go anywhere. And that comedy itself is like that’s one of its core requirements, almost, and they all start getting almost sort of militant or pushing back when that starts getting curtailed or limited in some ways.
AP: And that comes back to the nomadic traveler that we associate with, too. It’s like we don’t want restrictions, whether it’ll be physical or mental or opinion-based. We don’t want restrictions in any sense. So comedy is one of those things that we feel we can free-roam and it’s acceptable.
RB: Yeah, Sagittarius loves freedom. It’s interesting that both the Jupiter-ruled signs are mutable signs and so there’s that openness and that flexibility sort of built in. Jupiter likes to be in a space where it’s free to do what it wants. It doesn’t like to be locked in, it doesn’t like to be restricted. And because Jupiter, you know, one of the significations is comedy, you can see that coming through. Comedy that is restrained is like… Yeah, to your point Chris, I’m not making a value judgment here but there is something about comedy has to have like– I don’t know– the reigns taken off or something like that to be authentic or honest in some ways. That being said, you can use comedy like we said, for political ends to project your point of view. And that can go either way in terms of spreading a point of view that’s affirming and uplifting and helpful or positive. You can also use it to spread something that contrasts with that, like something that is damning or mocking or deriding someone. So it can go either way, it’s not necessarily always a good thing. But just to thinking about that, how freedom and comedy kind of are intertwined in a way, there’s a relationship there.
CB: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me and it really does go back to both the optimism of Jupiter and the joviality and the jokes and laughter and other things like that are so important, but also freedom is a core component. So I think definitely Sagittarius as the stand-up comedian in some ways is a really good fit, I think. Yeah. All right, where else did I want to go with that? I did want to mention really quickly before we move on from that area that you’d mentioned the scientist and sometimes how that can become dogmatic. And one of the funny examples of that that Camille put in the outline for celebrity charts was Bill Nye who we don’t have a birth time for, again, but he has probably Mercury in Sagittarius. It’s at zero degrees 49 minutes of Sagittarius; the Sun, the North Node and Venus all in Sagittarius. And he’s, you know, a lot of people grew up watching him because he did a children’s program called Bill Nye the Science Guy where he’s teaching kids science and getting them interested in science and things like that, which was really good and really cool. He also, though more recently, is also kind of skeptical about non-scientific subjects. So astrology has been a frequent source of criticism or thing that he’s focused on rejecting and kind of more adamant or dogmatic terms in some instances.
RB: Yeah, Sagittarius is either very inspired. Often the case is that they’re either really into religion and spirituality and esoteric topics, or they’re sort of really dogmatically against them. They take a firm or strong stance one way or the other, I seem to find. I don’t find too many Sagittariuses that have no strong feelings about these topics, they usually have a have a position and they’re going to have something to say about it. But to your point, I think there is a component of belief. And I want to be careful here because there are some aspects of science that are grounded in experimentation and it’s so hard to dispute. You know, things like electricity are things that’s real and they’re out there in the world and you can see it. It’s only a matter of belief whether they exist or not. However, there is a component to science– or is it sort of adjacent to science– which is sort of the philosophy of science and how we interpret what science means for us. And there, we can get into territory where there can be a dogmatism. Like, there’s this term scientism, which is this belief that science is the only useful means for ascertaining truth, and that all other approaches to contemplating the world and sort of deriving meaning from it are not helpful. Science is the only path in this kind of philosophy. And some people think that that’s just a fact. Whereas, you know, there are other ways of ascertaining and getting meaning from the world, for example, like poetry or art or spirituality and things like that. So there’s a way that becoming too interested in science– no, maybe too interested is the wrong term– but turning science from an objective study of a fact into a belief system. There, you can get into that territory where it’s a matter of faith. I think that’s where sometimes that Sagittarius inspiration can, you know, you can have a very inspired atheist, for example, you know? A very passionate atheist or a very passionate skeptic. That, in some ways, you could argue like a belief system.
CB: Yeah, for sure. Because it just has to do with making meaning out of the world and everybody trying to understand the big picture-ish view and understand what is real and what’s actually happening in our lives that gives meaning to it. And I think sometimes people that go that route of scientism as a belief system sometimes forget that scientific conclusions are provisional. And it’s to the best of our knowledge that this is how the world works currently, but sometimes forget that that’s not the end of the story or that we’re not going to find out other things that might revise that at some point in the future. Because it’s sometimes tempting to feel like you’ve found the truth about something. And that goes back to the politics thing, that goes back to religion, that goes back to science… It’s the search for the truth and the search for meaning and sometimes once you feel like you’ve found the truth, it’s almost like a religious experience whatever that truth is, where you’ve seen everything. You’ve seen the big picture, you’ve seen how the universe works, and suddenly you know what you’re doing here and what the meaning is and everything else. And you want to share that with other people and you want to impart that on to other people so that they can have that same positive experience that you felt. I think it’s often where that comes from.
All right. And then just in passing as that was making me pull up some other charts of others that I happen to notice that have Sagittarius placements. So Neil deGrasse Tyson, for example, who’s a famous science advocate and also can sometimes be a little dogmatic about things has Saturn in Sagittarius. And then his predecessor really interestingly, actually Carl Sagan, had the Moon at 21 degrees of Sagittarius in a night chart, he was born just after sunset. So it’s actually interesting in terms of the degrees because Neil deGrasse Tyson has his Saturn at 20 degrees of Sagittarius and he famously did a second version of The Cosmos TV series just in the past decade, which was supposed to be like a follow-up or almost a sequel to the series that Carl Sagan did that was so famous on science education in the 1980s.
AP: It’s almost like trying to reground those ideals maybe a little bit, with being Saturn or?
CB: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely.
RB: Have an authoritative type and sort of really make it concrete.
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So I want to transition into the second part of this episode where we start really doing more to contrast Sagittarius with some of the other signs of the zodiac. We’ve done a little bit of that already with Scorpio and Capricorn but I want to extend that to some of the other signs. I know Ashley that you’ve started to get into some of the contrast with Gemini and with Mercury, which is the sign that’s opposite to Sagittarius and I think that might be a good starting point. So, Sagittarius as we said is ruled by Jupiter. It’s mutable, fire, and masculine or diurnal. And that’s opposite to Gemini, which is ruled by Mercury, is an Air sign which in the stoic elements is cold rather than hot and that’s why it’s opposite to Sagittarius. It’s also a mutable sign and it’s also masculine or diurnal. One of the big contrasts between these two signs is we have Mercury in Gemini, which is the smallest planet, versus Jupiter ruling Sagittarius which is the largest planet. And you get this real contrast of small things versus big things or like small-picture things like conversation or talking versus big-picture things in Sagittarius as we’ve been talking about belief, truth, religion, politics and other things like that. Camille did a list of comparisons between these two that might be a good thing to look at and contrast as a starting point. So here’s the contrast. She says Gemini is that which is familiar, versus Sagittarius which is that which is foreign. Gemini is facts while Sagittarius is faith. Gemini is thoughts, versus Sagittarius is beliefs. Gemini is small talk, versus Sag which is big talk. Gemini is knowledge from books, versus Sagittarius knowledge from experience. Gemini is the here at now, Sag is to infinity and beyond. Gemini is probabilities, Sag is possibilities. Gemini is nervousness, versus Sag is more easygoing. Gemini is curiosity, versus Sag is conviction. Concrete versus abstract. And finally, Gemini is microscopic, versus Sagittarius which is telescopic.
RB: Yeah, a lot of really interesting contrasts there. I think they’re kind of two sides of a coin. I suppose that’s why they’re opposite in the zodiac, right? There’s a useful kind of like… There’s a similarity between them but then there’s some really interesting differences that make them work well together but then also quite contrasting in other ways. I like to think of Mercury as the significator of the student, and Jupiter as the significator of the teacher or the guru figure. And so Gemini and Sagittarius can have this interesting relationship where Gemini’s curiosity is satisfied by Sagittarius’s fast-reading and learning that they’ve done in that and their enthusiasm to teach that. It’s almost like a perfect pairing in a way because Gemini is so interested in what people have to say, and Sagittarius has a lot to say. [laughs]
CB: Right. I sometimes think about… Gemini has reputation as a very chatty sign and is very good at talking, but sometimes it can be talking for the sake of talking versus Sagittarius I sometimes think about more about like thinking, like talking versus thinking. And something Gemini brings to the table that might be useful for Sagittarius is; even if you know a lot of things with Sagittarius or you’re very learned in a number of different areas or you’ve studied something very deeply, are you able to communicate that effectively to other people through words or through writing or what have you, because those are not necessarily one in the same thing.
RB: Yes, the exile of the full… Sorry, the detriment of Mercury is Sagittarius so sometimes Sagittarius does have a difficult time of actually conveying all these profound ‘truths’ quote-unquote that they have found. How to actually communicate that to another person in a way that’s compelling and holds their interest is sometimes a challenge because Sag wants to talk about big things, controversial topics, sometimes like you mentioned Ashley, and big brain stuff. Mercury might want to talk more about like, what? What they did on the weekend, you know?
AP: Yeah. I’m sorry, wanted to talk at the same time. But I feel like they do complete each other in a way and, you know, opposites are so similar that they do have qualities that mesh so well and almost can complete what that other sign can’t. Like pieces of information with Gemini, the little pieces mixed with the big picture creates a connection and it almost brings it back to reality. And then you think about the quality of air and fire and how air fuels fire. So it’s like we need each other. I do like the way that they kind of complete each other and they do hold this never-ending youth quality. It’s kind of like the Peter Pan kind of vibe. I know that might go more with Gemini, but I feel like they’re both very young-at-heart signs. Playful, optimistic, friendly, sociable, and just love interacting for the sake of learning.
CB: For sure.
RB: There’s a trouble with Gemini, like you said Chris, preferring to talk rather than to listen. And I think that can sometimes drive Sagittarius a little bit crazy. Because they really have a lot to say and they’re like, “I really really want to tell you about this thing that’s inspiring me that I learned the other day that’s blowing my mind,” and Gemini just won’t pass the microphone.
CB: Yeah. And Gemini is also better about small talk, like making small talk, which is an art in and of itself. Some people are really good at small talk like having those short, quick interactions and making it positive and effective or something like that, whereas other people struggle with a short conversation. They aren’t able to say what they want to say or get everything in.
AP: Yeah. And like we talked about what Sag being the one who likes to bring controversial issues to the table like these big ideas! And it’s like, “Why are you bringing that to Thanksgiving dinner?” [Rob laughs] And then Gemini is like, “I’m just gonna chit chat on these little things that aren’t that big and it’s not really going to upset people.” But it probably still will, but not quite to the extent of what Sag is going to be talking about.
RB: Yeah. I actually literally went on Twitter one day when I was going to a wedding, I didn’t know a lot of people there and asked for help with small talk. [laughs] It’s like I kind of crowd-sourced small talk ideas because my preference is to go straight into whatever is my passion and I want to talk about my passion with people. But I recognize that unless I’m around friends or people I know well, I can’t really do that so I have to have something else to say to them. And so I got a lot of helpful advice because I definitely do struggle with small talk. Yeah, and I do tend to bend the conversation towards philosophy whenever I can, so that is absolutely true at least from my experience. Yeah.
AP: I can say the same.
CB: Especially Mercury in Sagittarius sometimes has a difficulty knowing when to cut it off in terms of talking too long or too much and it makes me think of a famous Mercury in Sagittarius that I know, which is Robert Hand. He has Cancer rising with the Sun and Mercury and Venus all in Sagittarius in the sixth whole sign house. And for years, he was just famous for his lectures. He was famous on the astrology lecture circuit, especially at the Northwest Astrology Conference that would happen around the end of May every year for like 30 years starting in 1984. He became kind of a center piece of that conference because he would always give this one last rousing lecture at the very end of the very last day, and it was always this very long and sort of circuitous but ultimately inspiring lecture that some people eventually came to refer to it casually as the Sunday Sermon because it was like he’s talking about astrology, but he was integrating these broader metaphysical and philosophical concepts, even when he was talking about something like the history. And sometimes he would start off and he famously– even if you listen to some of the early podcast episodes of the Astrology Podcast where I had Rob on a few times, he will just go on these digressions. And you have no idea where he’s going or how long this is gonna go on for or if it’s going to come back, but eventually it’ll always curve back to the topic and tie everything in perfectly even though you were a little nervous for a little bit– or at least I was nervous as the host if it was going to come back around to the point. But he would always pull it off and I often think of that when I think of Mercury in Sagittarius-type people.
RB: Most of my conversations are just a series of digressions sort of jammed together and glued together, and hopefully I get back to where I started at some point. [laughs]
AP: Yep. I can’t tell you how many of my friends are like… Literally I’ll be in a conversation and I’m like, “Oh, blah, blah, blah! This, this, this! Wait, what was I talking about?” And then they have to remind me like, “Oh, you were talking about this.” And I’m like, “Okay, so actually the point of that whole thing was this, but now you know all this, so.” I really, as well, and I don’t know how but it’s kind of like a lightning bolt strikes Zeus. Lightning bolt strikes and it reminds me like, wait you were actually focused on something. You’re supposed to be talking about one thing, so get back to it!
RB: Yeah, and maybe to circle back to where we started it from, which is Gemini, is that we can learn a lot from Geminis about how to converse well and how to be engaging and how to hold court and to sort of, you know… Yeah, just the speaking skills and the charisma of a Gemini. Because I think Sagittarius sometimes has a hard time leaving the study or the library or the monastery or wherever we might be located and actually coming down to the town and conveying what we’ve been doing to people. Yeah.
CB: Yeah, for sure. All right, I’m looking through examples to see if there’s any chart examples that would be good for this contrast with Gemini right now, but I’m not necessarily seeing any that I super want to mention. Okay, so maybe that’s good with the contrast with Gemini aside from just small things versus big things is one of the big contrasts, and curiosity versus conviction I thought was another good contrast just in terms of the things that we’ve talked about here a little bit. Even though there’s a curiosity and there’s a roaming quality to both, it seems like Mercury likes to keep things a little bit more surface level in terms of interest and curiosity and conversation versus the larger thing or between formulating beliefs and almost being a little bit ironically or unexpectedly a little bit more fixed in a way with Sagittarius.
RB: Yeah. I’m reminded of a good example of Gemini is a fellow astrology podcaster, Adam Sommer, and his way of conversing with people. He brings people on his podcast that he’s interested in hearing from and he has this kind of curious let’s-hear-from-you approach. I think he invites people based on whether he likes their work, he wants to just have a chat with them. And you can see his curiosity coming through. He likes to sort of take little pieces from different things, and he’s always like, “Oh, that’s interesting that you say that, that’s interesting that you say that.” But he doesn’t necessarily come down with a really firm stance, he’s quite happy to kind of hear from people and enjoy that interchange. Whereas a Sagittarius person will almost be mounting a pulpit to say like, “Here is what I believe is true and I’m going to try and make you believe it too,” whereas Gemini is more comfortable to just hear alternative positions and alternative ways of thinking, but won’t necessarily adopt one and hold firm to it in the way that Sagittarius will.
AP: Yeah. And that’s a good quality, I think, that Sag can learn from Gemini for sure is just remember that it doesn’t have to be so serious, it doesn’t have to be so deep. I know we’re the sign after Scorpio, but we can let go of the deep stuff sometimes. And it is important how Gemini communicates because they almost get so much more information from people that they can learn more about those people and in turn themselves, whereas Sagittarius is almost putting themselves on other people like, “You’re like me,” and it’s like, well, let’s learn about each of you and see how we intertwine.
RB: That’s a good point.
CB: For sure. And I’m trying to remember, I don’t remember if Adam’s chart is public, I think it is, but just suffice to say, he has a contrast between some Gemini placements and some Sagittarius placements in his just to your point. Also reminds me, I forgot to mention at the beginning that I have some credentials not as good as you guys in terms of your chart placements, but I’ve got some Sagittarius with my Midheaven and my Uranus and Venus and Neptune there in the sign of Sagittarius in the 11th whole sign house. And I sometimes think about that in terms of how the podcast has become this thing where I do these episodes with friends. And this is part of my career at this point as both of you are friends and we’re having this talk and this discussion about astrology today, and I’ve been able to sort of make a whole career out of that with my Midheaven in the sign of Sagittarius.
RB: Because astrology there’s a Jupiterian quality to it. I mean, lots of different planets can be associated with astrology, I think primarily Mercury in the tradition and Uranus more recently. But there’s a Jupiterian piece as well, I suppose, in the sense that it’s a lofty topic and it’s sort of a philosophical topic. And I think you in your work I’ve noticed that you always bring kind of a philosophical or thoughtful… You bring that kind of thoughtful, philosophical perspective to these topics, and you’re happy to discuss things like philosophy whether it be stoicism or whether it be other ways of thinking about astrology and the history of it and things like that fascinate you. And so it’s interesting to see that the Sagittarius on the Midheaven that’s sort of what you’re known for is sort of conveying this sort of high lofty topic to people.
AP: That’s what I was just going to say, is you bring these huge ideas that I’ve never comprehended until I’ve listened to your podcast, and then it just sparks all these other like, “Maybe I should learn Sanskrit so I can learn all these big things.”
CB: Yeah. And if you go back and listen to the very first episode of The Astrology Podcast, what’s funny is I had a vision for what I wanted to accomplish. But it was so big and if you look at the actual outline of what I said I wanted to do with the show, it looks a little bit ridiculous at the time and over the top because I was like, “I want to cover the history and the philosophy and the techniques and we’re going to talk about all the different astrological traditions and we’re going to talk about all the signs and planets and it’s going to cover everything.” So there was this kind of lofty or overarching vision for it. But then over the past 10 years, sort of I’ve been able to slowly using maybe the more Saturn part of my chart actually accomplish that by just doing pieces slowly over the course of the past decade.
AP: Because you’re definitely accomplishing it. You’re covering so much ground and not many people could do that, but it takes that Sag energy to bring the heavens to the ground.
CB: Yeah. And I’ve noticed also one of the ways I do is by importing some of that. I think having Venus there and having that be my 11th house, I sometimes import people with Sag placements into my life in different ways. And I think that’s helpful as well to balance out the other Scorpio and Capricorn parts. All right, so I think that’s good for the contrast with Gemini and with Sagittarius. Unless either of you have anything else, maybe we could move on to talking about the contrast with some of the other signs.
CB: All right, so let’s see. Looking at the zodiac here, one of them that might be easy as a transition at this point that’s very similar is just looking at the other in the same quadruplicity or modality, the other immutable signs, and what the similarities and differences are. Because one of the easy ones there is moving on to Virgo which is the other Mercury-ruled sign. But instead of being an air sign like Gemini was, Virgo is an earth sign. So it’s a little bit more practical and a little bit more grounded, even though it’s focused on very small things or sort of minute details. And I think this is where that contrast that I mentioned earlier of Sagittarius knowing a lot of philosophical or big picture things, but I think if any sign knew how to change a tire or something like that that had practical knowledge of smaller things, it would be Virgo as being part of the basic contrast, but also ways in which both of them even though there’s a tension there because there’s differences, they’re very different, they can in some ways be complementary.
RB: Yes, that Mercury-Jupiter relationship comes through again. So Jupiter and Mercury, their domiciles are all mutable signs and they oppose each other. And so there’s this sort of intimate relationship between Mercury and Jupiter in the setup of the domicile rulership scheme that’s not really so present with some of the other planets perhaps. They sort of have this pairing quality, but also a contrasting quality too.
CB: Yeah, well, and like with the other contrast, it’s a starker or harder to reconcile contrast with some of the other rulerships. The two luminaries have Cancer and Leo and represent light basically or reflecting light versus Saturn, which is opposite to that which represents darkness. So there’s much more of a strong contrast there or almost negation in a way. And similarly with the two Venus and Mars signs, with Aries being ruled by Mars opposite to Venus being ruled by Libra or Taurus ruled by Venus opposite to Mars ruled by Scorpio, those are much more contrasting sort of opposite combative sort of energies that are a little bit harder to reconcile. But then when you get to the Mercury and Jupiter signs, because all of those, for example, are benefics opposite malefics or light-giving planets opposite to a malefic or what have you, but when you get to Mercury and Jupiter, you’ve got a benefic that’s opposite to a little bit more neutral of a planet. And while you can see some of their contrasts, I think they’re a little bit more reconcilable sometimes, a little bit more easily at least than some of the other contrasts.
RB: Yeah, thank you for saying that better than I could, Chris. That’s what I was really going for, is that there’s a complementary quality between them that isn’t necessarily present with the other pairings of the opposed signs. Because there’s a conflict I suppose between what Venus wants to do and what Mars wants to do, and there’s sort of a conflict between what Saturn wants to do and what the luminaries want to do. But with Mercury and Jupiter, they sort of have a shared kind of project in a way, Mercury wants to learn and Jupiter wants to teach. So there is something there where they kind of fulfill each other in a way whereas the other opposed pairings are more like butting heads, I guess.
RB: That being said, there is differences. There is a potential conflict. When I think about Virgo and Sagittarius, I think about the way that Sagittarius exaggerates things and just sometimes says a lot of inaccurate things and makes broad generalizations and verbal gaffs. And that will just drive a Virgo crazy to sit there and listen to a Sagittarius embellishing a story or exaggerating what happened where they’re like, “No, that’s not actually what happened, that’s inaccurate. You’re not telling the truth here.”
CB: Those are really good keywords, embellishment or exaggeration for Sag.
RB: Similarly with Sag, Sagittarius will get frustrated with Virgo’s insistence on every little thing being correct and they’re missing the point. It doesn’t matter that I used the wrong word, the vibe of what I’m saying is right.
CB: Yeah, like the misuse of the word literally or something. No, I didn’t literally go to the Moon, I just meant I was very excited. And Virgo is like, “But you said you literally went to the Moon.”
AP: And I do like how you mentioned Mercury being a more comfortable sign or a more comfortable planet with the others, because I feel like it almost lends a more mutable quality to the already mutable signs. So it makes it less harsh of a contrast sometimes.
CB: There’s more flexibility.
AP: Yeah, there’s more like Virgo too you think of being kind of in service to people, and even though they may be bothered by like, “Hey, why did you say that? I was there, and that’s not how it went down.” They may be more flexible in being like, “Okay, Sag, I’ll just let you have that.” So that’s interesting. I’d like to ponder that a little bit more, but I like that you pointed that out because Mercury will make it a little bit more adaptable to not be being so different even though there are squares in oppositions with these signs.
CB: Yeah, for sure. I think of going back to David Pingree’s chart because he had that Mercury in Sagittarius with Venus, but it was in a mutual reception with Jupiter in Virgo. And so there’s this positive flowing exchange between those two signs, and I think that’s where you get the best of both worlds where he had this very broad base of learning about many different cultures and histories and philosophies and types of astrology. But then he put it to a practical use by he would go back and make critical editions of different texts where he’d gather up all of the manuscripts of this one ancient astrology text and he would compare all of them and then write out and recreate what he thought the original manuscript of the original text was. And he did this with not just the Yavanajataka in Sanskrit, but he also did that with Vettius Valens. He’s the one that did the critical edition of Vettius Valens that we drew on for the translation that I just published that Mark Riley translated that I published a few months ago. He also translated like 10 other critical editions or he didn’t translate them because he did it in the original language. So if you pick up that text of Valens, it’s not a translation, it’s the original text of Valens or at least what Pingree thought it was in Greek. But there’s a very practical component to that which is the Virgo side of things.
RB: Virgo gives something that Sagittarius needs in some ways. And a chart like Pingree’s where there’s both, it’s like a superpower because you’ve got that big picture perspective, then you can also actually do the detailed careful work so that your big ideas can actually be backed up with, “Look, here’s my receipts.” And so without that Mercurial part, without that sort of Virgo part, Sagittarius’s ideas can be shot down, holes can be knocked in them, and the big lofty spiritual or religious, whatever it might be, take that you have gets criticized and then you’re left in the ashes.
CB: Yeah. I think Sagittarius might sometimes feel a little tension there because Virgo is probably much more critical and much more has an ability to see and focus on the details and the cracks and something in the mistakes because it focuses on that microscopic part of things versus Sagittarius wanting to look at the big picture. And I think there might be tension there between the two of them as a result of that, but it’s not irreconcilable.
AP: Yeah, and I almost feel like Virgo brings practicality to Sagittarians’ ideas, whereas Gemini and Sag kind of make it fun or it may not be super like, “Oh, let’s make something out of this,” they just want to talk about it, they just want to be in that moment together. Whereas Virgo being earth too wants to ground it, like, “Is there a purpose for this? If you have all these big ideas, then how can we use that in reality or how can I improve this medical book with this mythological or ancient knowledge or whatever it may be?” But I feel like Virgo will help make it more grounded in reality.
RB: Yeah. Sagittarius needs help to actually make a practical difference, and that’s where the Virgo can come in and be really, really helpful.
CB: And in turn Sagittarius probably helps Virgo to lighten up a little bit and not always focus on the straight and narrow, not everything has to be practical all the time or useful or grounded.
RB: Yeah, that’s it, add a bit of levity and Sagittarius helps Virgo to see the forest for the trees as well, so they can help Virgo zoom out a little bit and not worry so much, don’t stress the details so much.
CB: Right, for sure, for sure. All right, that might be good contrasting that one. The only mutable sign then which will run into very similar themes we haven’t contrasted yet is Pisces, which in traditional astrology, traditionally in ancient astrology is also ruled by Jupiter, it’s also a mutable sign, and it’s a feminine or an nocturnal sign like Virgo, but the difference is that this is a water sign. So water being the primary difference in the contrast, but it’s the other Jupiter-ruled sign. So we’ve got major similarities between Sagittarius and Pisces, but the difference is fire versus water.
RB: I have some thoughts on that, but I wonder, Ashley, did you want to perhaps go first? I’ve got some things to say but…
AP: You go ahead.
RB: Cool, I’ll dive in. I’m just conscious of my Aries rising, sometimes I just want to start before the gun’s even fired.
AP: My Taurus rising will gladly follow.
RB: Cool. I think the fiery side of Jupiter comes out in Sagittarius, but there’s this other side to Jupiter that comes through in Pisces. There’s a more contemplative side, there’s a more meditative approach with Pisces as opposed to the more active. I think about the difference between sitting still and contemplating and meditating as a spiritual practice like Jupiter versus something more like active like standing up and giving a sermon or leading prayers and things like that might be more of a Sagittarius angle. Pisces has that watery side which is so valuable, and it allows them to tap into the emotional and felt sensitive space so they have more of a capacity to be a healer or a helper, whereas Sagittarius is more like a fighter in some ways. So Sagittarius wants to take the banner up and go charging off and spread the word with fire and sword, but Pisces has that sort of more caring component. Jupiter wants to help people. I think helpfulness is an important Jupiter keyword, but we see two different sides to that in these two signs, where Sagittarius wants to help by teaching and by sort of conveying and also just fighting for truth is a way of helping. I think Pisces has an access to more of an inner truth and an ability to kind of sit with people, sit with their feelings and share space with them in a way that Sagittarius isn’t quite so capable of. That was sort of the first thing that came to my mind.
AP: Yeah, I can definitely see that too, where Pisces is more of they’re willing to maybe work on a deeper level with people and understanding and working through this knowledge and using it to help their inner souls and solves and working with them, whereas Sag is kind of like, “Okay, here you go. Now here’s the information, you know how to use it, right? Here you go.” And Pisces is like, “Let me nurture you while teaching this in a way.”
RB: Yeah, the more nurturing side of Jupiter. Yes, I think that’s a really good point. It’s a water sign, so it has that fertility and that sort of like, “Let me help you to grow.” It’s more of a kinder teacher in a way, a more gentle teacher, whereas Sagittarius might be the more tough, strict teacher. There’s an inclusive and accepting quality to Pisces that’s absent in Sagittarius.
CB: Empathy, I think empathy is one of the big keywords here for Pisces. I’m thinking of keywords like empathy, softer, and it’s sort of the difference where Sagittarius would be the political organizer versus Pisces is the person who becomes a vegetarian or a vegan through a love of animals and empathy for animals or something like that and not wanting to harm them. So almost like withholding doing something or not doing something, withholding action of eating another human being or another sentient being through just sheer empathy, and yeah, that’s more of a Pisces thing to me.
AP: Yeah. And I feel like Sag is almost a little bit more like intellectualizing these things, whereas Pisces is making it a lot more emotionally driven. So they have these passions in a way and they are supportive, but yeah, exactly like you said, Sag is more pushing it on people and Pisces is maybe going to sit with it, take it a little deeper. You think water is grounded, it goes lower than any other element. And then fire rises, and it’s just maybe focused on its own rising, whereas water is trying to nourish everything with this information.
RB: Fire burns, it hurts people. And I think last thing Pisces wants to do is to hurt. That’s sort of counter to the goal.
AP: Water heals, fire hurts.
RB: Yeah, yeah.
CB: In that way Pisces and water conforms and adapts to what’s around it and can be more willing to go along with what somebody else is saying or willing to be adaptable to somebody versus I think Sagittarius which can be a little bit more wanting to do its own thing and more independent and will sometimes even though optimistic in some ways will get into conflict with people if there are differences of belief or opinion.
RB: It’s more of a righteousness with Sagittarius, that fiery we’re full of vim and vigor and we’re prepared to fight because the fire signs have that combative quality. Sagittarius will get into arguments and things like that, whereas I think Pisces wants to hold space with different views and understand where people are coming from more, whereas Sagittarius has perhaps more of that quality of like, “I know that I’m right about this.”
AP: Yes, Sag is more ego-driven I feel like, but Pisces is like, “This is for everybody’s healing, not just for your ego.”
RB: There’s a brashness and a boldness with fire signs, and so you get a brash and bold version of Jupiter in Sagittarius, whereas you get a more empathetic and more sensitive version of Jupiter in Pisces.
CB: Yeah, and Pisces also and its keywords is just being very conflict averse I’ve noticed is a major Pisces thing, and that is a contrast a bit, I think, with Sagittarius. Similarities though is being both mutable signs. I think both can have a reputation for being a little bit flaky because of that digressive quality of both as mutable signs maybe not sticking to one thing, but kind of being a little bit all over the place or having multiple things going or maybe having good intentions but then not following through as well.
RB: Yeah, absolutely. Both signs are prone to taking on too many things and then the follow-through is the difficult part. Yeah, absolutely. And that the positive side to the mutability is both signs, I think, go on journeys in life. Just a digress, I don’t necessarily like this idea that Sagittarius is always traveling, because I feel like that is just sort of a symptom of the alphabetic zodiac where you relate Sagittarius to the ninth house, because I know plenty of Sagittarius that have never left the country, let alone their bedroom. But I do think there is something to this idea of a spiritual journey or an inner journey or moving from one belief or faith to another or a path of learning, a path of discovery, and both signs share that moving from one thing to another on a sort of a faith-based quest or a belief-based quest.
AP: And I feel like in a way that makes them both creative also. I feel like I see a lot of really artistic Pisces, of course, and then I also know a lot of artists that are Sagittarian. So I don’t know if that just also makes them creative, it is like a higher-minded kind of thing and all these things that they’re learning they can use to create.
RB: Yeah, creativity is an important Jupiter trait. And I think in some of the medieval natal astrology books they’ve got, they use Jupiter when it comes to the topic of children. So they’ll look at Jupiter as one of the universal significance for this topic of children. So in addition to the fifth house, you’d also look at someone’s Jupiter placement to see where children are going to come in into someone’s life. There’s a generative quality to Jupiter. And maybe that’s perhaps linked to, and this is probably getting a bit esoteric, but Jupiter is the god of the sky, and rain falls from the sky and fertilizes. So there’s a nurturing quality to Jupiter in both, but perhaps more so in in Pisces, they get more of that rain god perspective with the Pisces version of Jupiter.
CB: I do think there’s a little something to being a diurnal or masculine sign, more of an externalization of the traveling or at least exploratory quality in Sagittarius, whether it’s explorations of the mind to different cultures or learning different politics or philosophies or what have you, whereas there’s more of an internal exploration quality with Pisces of the person that goes on like a LSD trip or something like that and finds their spirit animal or like something like that which can sometimes have a negative quality in terms of like escapism being a Pisces sort of quality that sometimes comes up through different forms of that or different pitfalls that come along with that. But that’s an interesting internal versus externalization of a similar impulse of sort of like exploration.
RB: Yeah, the journey in versus the journey out. I think that’s a really good point, Chris.
CB: I keep thinking about that.
AP: Oh, go ahead.
CB: I’ll just say it really quickly. I keep thinking about that over and over again the further into the series I go, of just conceptualizing the diurnal signs and the masculine signs as being the Sun and that the Sun radiates light out versus the Moon and the nocturnal signs or the feminine signs and notion of the light coming in and reflecting sort of inwards in an internalization of the quality or the impulse. What were you going to say?
AP: I was just going to say I know you guys mentioned not really loving the association of Sagittarius with physical travel, and I agree because I’m a Sag that I really don’t love to physically travel a whole lot, but I feel like that’s maybe why Sagittarius is represented by more physical travels is just because it is a more external sign, whereas Pisces is the internal. And maybe Pisces internal journey inspires them to eventually take an external travel journey, whereas opposite with Sag, you go to another country, learn these other languages or learn about their cultures, and then maybe that will teach them or make them want to learn more and internally. So it’s starting from internal going external and starting external going internal.
RB: I like that. These binary qualities kind of have a relationship there and a flow happening. It’s helpful to think about this as a directionality to moving in versus moving out and the journey outwards from within, the journey both ways, I think that’s a really fascinating way to think about it.
AP: And they’re all mutable, so the mutability of going internal and external, they’re able to do that.
CB: Yeah, for sure. One of the last points that Camille makes is both sharing common desire to sincerely help others. And I think that’s a really good point about Sagittarius and Pisces, that there can be this underlying component, for the most part that most share in wanting to help people.
AP: Yeah, for sure.
RB: Yes, yes. Pisces sort of explores that how can I help people in a felt space, in a space of emotional depth in our psychology, our feelings, our sensitivities, that inner world, and Sagittarius has the more of a like, “How can I help people grapple with these big questions in their lives in more of an exterior externalized kind of approach? They’re both are concerned with other people, they’re both concerned with sharing what they’ve learned, but they have a different mode or different sort of way of going about that process.
AP: Yeah. And I almost feel like all the mutable signs are pretty concerned with helping people. I mean, of course, Virgo I feel like is associated naturally to helping people, but Gemini also they all just do it in a different way and it is genuinely wanting to help people or have people connect whether it be to others or to themselves.
CB: All right. Well, I think that’s enough talking about the water signs. Now that we’ve completed talking about the mutable signs, the four mutable signs of Gemini, Sagittarius, Virgo, and Pisces, we’re going to talk about the other set of signs that Sagittarius shares in common or has a close connection with through similarity is the other fire signs, which are Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius. So here’s the diagram. We’ve talked about this a little bit already, but why don’t we start with Aries and contrast it with Sagittarius. So Aries is ruled by Mars. It’s also a fire sign, but it’s cardinal because it comes at the beginning of the seasons, and it’s also a masculine or diurnal sign. So in terms of that, one of the contrasts that Camille came up with was that Aries is like a firework, it shoots off quickly and sort of explodes fast and there’s a blaze of sort of glory, but then it’s over relatively quickly as a cardinal sign. And then she says that Leo is like a fireplace and Sagittarius is like a wildfire.
RB: Yes, I have the exact same analogy written down. Cardinal Aries is the spark that starts the fire or a firework’s a good analogy as well. And then the fireplace, Leo is where the fire is held and contained and maintained and made sure that that fire doesn’t go out. Yeah. And there’s a warming kind of let’s all gather around the fire quality, but mutable fire is spreading and it’s being shared. And in a positive way that could be lighting torches and passing them out to the community, but it could also be a raging bush fire or a forest fire that just is out of control. And that’s a really great way to start thinking about the other fire signs for sure.
AP: Yeah, and I have something kind of similar to that in my notes. So the firework, fireplace, wildfire, kind of these different forms of fires, but my way of looking at it is the different progressions of a single fire. So I think of, like you said, the Aries is kind of the spark, you’re igniting it, you’re lighting the fire. Leo is the roaring fire literally. Lion, it’s roaring fire, it’s blazing. And then I see Sag just kind of like the smoldering burning embers afterward. It’s a little bit cooler fire, but it burns deep.
RB: Yeah, and those coals, there’s still warmth there, but there’s sort of a spread out quality to them raking over the coals and things like that.
AP: Yep. And fire, I mean, it’s a creation kind of thing. It destroys, but it also allows for creation or new things to begin.
RB: Yes, we forge things in the fire, we make tools and things. Yes, absolutely. And Leo has that sort of like, “This is the hearth that we can gather around, but it may be mutable. Sagittarius is taking that fire and sharing it out and like let’s move from maintaining it to giving it out to people and sort of passing it around, so passing that inspiration. Aries is the spark of inspiration, Leo is the storehouse of it, and Sagittarius is the person who’s going to take that out and give it to the community and teach it and share it.
CB: I like that, and pass it on. That’s really good. So initiate, maintain, and then pass on or transfer in some way.
RB: Yeah, transfer because I think the mutable signs have that transferring or transforming quality at the end of the season. There’s shifting between that sort of the nature of that modality is passed between two states.
CB: Right, because it’s at the end of the season so you’re going from the fixed quality of the middle of the season to starting to transition into the next one and what you learned from that last season that you’re going to carry forward into the next one.
RB: Yeah. Every day I light incense in my room, but what I do is I get my cigarette lighter and I light the candle and I think the cigarette lighter is the Aries, the candle is Leo, and then I light my incense from the candle. And that sort of taking the fire and spreading it to some other thing, and then also I suppose incense being something that’s often used in prayer and meditation seems fitting.
AP: And you can light as many incense as you want from that one flame that already stands, I like that.
RB: The candle holds it, and then we’re going to take that and like share it out.
CB: Yeah. So other similarities, so like you said earlier, Aries likes to go very fast, Sagittarius also I think fast is a pretty good keyword for Sagittarius to some extent, maybe not as impulsive. I don’t think Sag is quite as impulsive as Aries, but there still can be kind of a shoot from the hip quality to both of them to a certain extent.
RB: Yes, yes. Jupiter that optimism comes in. So all the fire signs have that energetic quality. Aries is cardinal, so it’s the most energetic and the most quick. Leo the least of them because it’s fixed, so it’s a little bit slower in pace, but it still has that fire inside it. Sagittarius is not fixed at all, so you can see the quickness and the energy more clearly in Sagittarius than you can in Leo. Another thing that I think is shared with Aries is this sort of courageous or brave… I mean, all the fire signs have it actually, this bravery. Aries is not afraid to explore new territory and dive in to things, and Sagittarius is not afraid of exploring new ideas or being a thought leader or something like that. Yeah, similar kind of boldness.
CB: That’s a great point. Courage, brave, also independent, I think all three of the fire signs share that quality of independence or valuing independence. Aries has that in that they’re willing to be the first one into the breach or the first one to run out ahead of everybody else and has this courageousness partially as a result of that, sometimes bordering on a little bit of, I don’t know what the downside of that is, but full heartiness or…
CB: Yeah, recklessness, yeah, that’s really good for Aries. Leo has also an independent streak, but it’s through that Leo just wants to shine and have its own internal qualities radiate from itself and has this internal sense of just feeling solid in and of itself and feeling good about itself to the point of sometimes being egotistical or narcissistic as the downside of that. But the other side of that that’s more positive is just being comfortable being who you are and radiating or showing off your own light or your own internal qualities in a way that it draws other people to you or makes other people want to gravitate towards you or situate themselves around you as sort of like the center of the solar system in some way like the Sun does with the planets. So Sagittarius similarly finally has also some similarities in terms of an independent quality.
AP: Yeah. And they all have their own leadership quality too, because Aries starts everything, that’s a leader. But then Leo is always known as the leader because they’re that steady leader almost. And then Sagittarius is a leader in the sense that like, “I’m going to change your life with all these ideas, I’m going to kind of spark inspiration in a way.” So they do all have leadership qualities.
RB: That’s a really good point. There’s something about the fire element that lends itself well to being in a leadership role, but that’s a really great analogy. Mars is sort of leading from the front, if you like, like the general in the army who’s actually in the front ranks and like, “I’m right here with you, I’m right at the front of the battle. And you can see here I am, here’s my banner.” Leo, the king or the queen, that sort of centrality of Leo. The hearth is in the center of the house, we gather around the hearth, and the planet’s orbit around the Sun. So really good stuff. And yeah, Jupiter is the inspirational leader. Winston Churchill was a Sagittarius, and he was very well known for inspiring people and he was very optimistic during a really dark time for Britain when they were pretty much the only country in the world that was still fighting the Nazis. And it looked pretty bleak, but his speeches and his kind of optimism comes through to inspire. So there’s a leadership quality there. Chris, you’ve put the chart up for Winston, yes.
CB: Yeah. So for those listening to the audio version, Winston Churchill had the Sun and Venus in Sagittarius.
RB: Yeah, and I think he has a charismatic quality to him. I’m not a massive admirer of Winston Churchill, let me be clear, I just think he’s a great example of someone who leads through inspiration and sort of radiating optimism that got Britain through a very scary period in their history. What other things can we say?
AP: Well, and the optimism mixed with the leadership stuff, it’s kind of like a cheerleader. I feel like fire signs kind of tend toward that archetype too, whether it be like a cheerleader or just someone there to encourage you in one form or another with optimism.
RB: That’s it. Yeah, it’s infectious quality of you can see that there’s always energy in the fire signs, and they have different ways of communicating that to other people. Aries almost through example, Leo through this sort of radiating quality, and Sagittarius maybe through a sharing and a kind of a like, “Let me go out into the world and I will take this with me and give it to you.”
CB: Yeah, check out this quote I just found from Winston Churchill where assuming this is correct, he said, “An optimist sees an opportunity in every calamity, a pessimist sees a calamity in every opportunity.”
RB: Isn’t that perfect?
CB: That’s perfect. That’s a very Sagy quote.
RB: I was going to think about the differences between the ruling planets perhaps, Chris, like Aries is Mars ruled, this is a malefic planet and has a combative quality to it. While Sagittarius can be combative because it’s a fire sign, because it’s ruled by a benefic, it really prefers to reconcile and prefers to find common ground and prefers to be in a space of joviality, of happiness and pleasantry. I don’t think Sagittarius naturally wants to get into a fight, I think the problem is that they just find themselves there because they have a very strong belief in something and then that clashes with someone else’s belief. So there’s more combative quality with Aries as opposed to Sagittarius is a bit more inclined to wanting people to get along, let’s say. They want everyone to have a good time at the party, they don’t want people fighting. But if you disagree with me and you’re really adamant about it, we’re going to have to sort this out.
AP: We both get Martial if we need.
CB: Yeah, Mars Aries will challenge you to a race or something like that.
RB: Sagittarius might be a bit more aloof from things like that, “I’m not really interested in cars, man.” And the other thing that I was struck by with Leo and Sagittarius, they both have a noble quality to them, the traditional sort of significations of the Sun is the king or the ruler, the authority figure. And Jupiter’s sort of related in a way, it sort of signifies nobility and people who are aristocrats essentially. So they both have a ruling quality or these are sort of the people at the top end of society, I mean, medieval society. People would think about the nobility as Jupiterian but the royalty as being solar. So there’s a shared kind of pride. I think Sagittarius, I mentioned earlier, has a proud quality to it and it’s perhaps straying into arrogance. And that’s something that it shares with Leo, is that they’re very concerned with being respected. And when they feel disrespected, that’s when the fire really comes out.
CB: Yeah. Maybe just again that thing, that notion of fire in the ancient conceptualization of the four elements and the order of the cosmos and that notion of fire rising up to the top compared to all other elements.
AP: Yeah, and wanting to be seen. Jupiter’s a huge planet, and so it may be far away, but we’re very aware and it’s seen, and then the Sun is the center of the solar system. It is very seen, it creates life. And so they’re very seen planets, they want to be seen, they’re comfortable in being in the public eye, I guess, in a way.
RB: That’s a great point. The size of Jupiter, Jupiter is the only thing that comes even close to the Sun in terms of size in the solar system.
CB: I went out last night and the Moon was pretty close to Jupiter in the middle of the sky, and it was just the brightest star in the sky that you can see that just stands out, especially in the middle of the night compared to the Moon and compared to all of the other stars. It just sort of radiates its brilliance.
AP: Yeah. And that shows too that you can almost see it a little bit better at night, so Sagittarius is maybe more comfortable with dipping from diurnal to nocturnal kind of realms and maybe Leo’s a little more comfortable with just the diurnal.
CB: Yeah. So another thing that comes up that we’ve talked about a little bit but that comes up with Leo, and Camille wrote this down, but keywords of expression and authenticity being very important to Leo and it sharing that in common with Sagittarius. We were talking earlier about how comedians, for example, ss Sagittarius that they don’t want to be encumbered or held back, they want to be able to express themselves authentically through comedy and to be authentic in that way and not be stifled. And that’s also very similar with Leo where self-expression for Leo and being authentic is a very core value I think for Leo.
RB: Yes, they both are interested in truth and honesty and authenticity certainly. I had this sort of a joke thing that Sagittarius is honest about everything except ourselves. It’s sort of a self-deception sometimes with Sagittarius or we have a self-image that maybe isn’t grounded, but yeah, both of these signs are very concerned with speaking the truth and being true to themselves and things like that.
CB: I think that that might be good for the triplicity of the fire triplicity, comparing these similarities and differences between those three signs. So what that leaves us with, I believe, is the aversions at this point.
RB: Have we done the sextiles?
CB: Oh yeah, no, we’ve skipped the sextiles. Sextiles aren’t important, so we’ll continue the ancient tradition of downplaying sextiles. All right, so good point. So Sagittarius is sextile to two signs. The first sign it’s sextile to is Libra, and the second sign it is sextile to is Aquarius. So it finds itself in the middle essentially of the two of the air signs. One of them ruled by the other benefic Venus, which is Libra in a cardinal air, masculine/diurnal sign, and then the other is Aquarius which traditionally is ruled by Saturn and is a cold fixed air sign which is also masculine or diurnal.
RB: The sextiles are a great aspect for synastry because I think there’s a friendliness to the sextile. If you look at the horoscope with the first house being the person and the third house, which is in a sextile to the first, is associated often with close companions and kindred. And the 11th house is also in a sextile to the first house, and the 11th is friends and allies. So there’s something quite complementary and close-knit about Aquarius and Libra and Sagittarius. I think they get along well generally, and I know a lot of people like couples who have a Sagittarius and a Libra or a Sagittarius and an Aquarius including myself.
CB: Yes, siblings and friends basically.
RB: Yeah. Libra has a few interesting things. It’s ruled by a benefic planet similarly to Sagittarius. So they both have this shared interest in fun and pleasure and bringing joy to people. They want the sunny side of life, they want to enjoy things, and they want other people to have an enjoyable time as well. The difference there perhaps is that Sagittarius seeks beauty and inspiration from ideas and concepts and things like that, whereas Libra has more of a sociability, a social side to it. So there’s a different way that they bring it forth as like that enjoyment of life.
AP: Yeah, and just talking about Libra, just a difference, Libra’s a little bit more people-pleasing or wants to get along with everybody and doesn’t really want to create any tension, whereas Sag and Jupiter just really they don’t care if they create a little bit of tension. Like we talked about before, Sag loves creating a little bit of, “Maybe you should think about that a little bit more,” and then Libra’s like, “Oh yeah, I love your idea even though I don’t agree, but I’m not going to say it.” So that’s something that I notice. And they do get along really well, but that’s a big difference I see.
RB: I can see Libra cringing when Sagittarius brings up religion and politics at the family dinner.
AP: Yeah, like, “Let’s make this peaceful, not today.”
CB: Yeah, Libra’s very good with social decor and being conscious of that.
RB: And Sag will break that, because Sag just wants the freedom to just, “I want to say what I want to say.”
CB: It’s the authenticity thing, it can’t help but be authentic, even if it sometimes means sticking your foot in your mouth.
RB: That’s a great Sagittarius trait, a keyword almost. Not a keyword, but key phrase would be foot in mouth syndrome is definitely a Sagittarius problem.
AP: Definitely. And then I guess we could look at the symbolism to the scales with Libra and then the centaur with Sagittarius. They have balancing qualities in a way. I mean, of course, Libra has the scales of balance, but then Sagittarius is always working on the balance of that animal instinct and that humanity side. So there’s that kind of duality there. I forgot what else I was going to say.
RB: No, that’s a really good point. Sagittarius balance is like it’s sort of, to get into medieval psychological terminology, but they would sort of talk about someone having an animal soul and then a rational soul. The animal soul being the part of you that wants to just eat food and have sex and that stuff.
RB: Yeah, primal, exactly. Yeah, and Sag has that in spades. They’re often big eaters and have signs of bad reputation for being quite flirty and being very interested in sex and just meeting people and getting along, you know what I mean? But then that gets balanced with their intellectual side and their interest in high ideas and things. So they have to kind of find a balance between the earthy animal stuff and the sort of higher philosophical things as well.
CB: That’s an interesting point that both Libra and Sagittarius can have a flirty quality.
RB: Yeah, that’s true, yes.
AP: That’s a good point definitely, very social beings.
CB: Right, very social. I think that’s a really good thing that they can be social and Sagittarius more sort of the life of the party, whereas Venus or Libra wanting to go around and make sure everyone’s having a good time and doing well at the party or what have you.
RB: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, sorry, go ahead, Ashley.
AP: Oh, go ahead. No, you go ahead.
RB: I’m sorry. I was just going to say that one difference between them is the modality. So Libra is cardinal, so it’s more active and more driven. And I think that Libra might get frustrated sometimes with Sagittarius spending too much time in the armchair or in the study and not enough time actually out there getting things done and achieving results.
CB: That’s a good point. And that’ll come up to a certain extent also with the other cardinal sign which is Capricorn.
AP: One other thing I just want to say and then we can move on if you want, but I feel like they both have something to do with justice. I see the scales relating to justice definitely in judges. But I know that Sagittarius has had those qualities as well and has been associated in the past with judging, and maybe in different forms Sag is their own kind of moral internal judging and then Libra is balancing it for the community, I guess, justice.
RB: Yes, I’m glad you mentioned that. That’s is something that they both definitely share, a strong sense of justice and what’s fair and what’s right. And there is a difference where they derive that from, I guess. You’re absolutely correct, Ashley, Sagittarius has that felt sense of justice or they derive it from their own…
AP: Their own laws.
CB: Yeah, it’s almost like a moral or religious code or having a philosophical sense of what’s right and what’s wrong with Sagittarius versus with Libra it’s more of a social sense of what would bring balance socially between two people when you’re contrasting opposite opinions or opposite desires.
AP: Yes, very much.
CB: Yeah, that makes sense. All right, so that’s good maybe for Sagittarius and Libra. So moving on to the other air sign that is sextile, we’re talking about Sagittarius and Aquarius, where we get a contrast with a Saturn-ruled sign. But it’s a Saturn-ruled sign that is also a diurnal or masculine sign, so there’s a little bit more of an easier, more flowing relationship to some extent or more complementary relationship with Sagittarius and Aquarius than there is with Sagittarius and Capricorn.
RB: Yeah, definitely I think it’s a great contrast Capricorn and Sagittarius versus Aquarius and Sagittarius, because I think Aquarius is a more complementary energy for Sag. Air and fire mix well. Fire needs air to live, and Aquarius has that ability to kind of keep a Sagittarius going in a way. I know this personally because my partner is an Aquarius, so I don’t want to draw on that relationship too much, I want to kind of like zoom out more broadly. But that’s in the back of my mind all the time when I talk about Aquarius. But I think one thing that Sagittarius really loves about Aquarius is the way that Aquarius is prepared to reject tradition, and that appeals to their love of freedom. There’s sort of a similarity there where Sagittarius looks at an Aquarius and the way that they’re just doing their own thing, living their own life and not caring about what’s proper or what’s the traditional way and that inspires them. And there’s also this great quality that Aquarius has of living out their ideals because they’re a Saturn-ruled sign. They don’t just have an ideal, they actually put it into practice and live it out in their life. There’s a groundedness to the idealism and kind of realism, I guess. We get that with both Saturnian signs, that’s sort of a more realistic take. And Sagittarius kind of needs that, needs to have someone there who can bring them a bit more down to earth. And so that’s another great quality that Aquarius has, to actually take those ideas and those high-minded concepts and then put in the hard work to bring it about in reality.
AP: And with that energy I feel like they both kind of perpetuate or create change or disruptions that could be beneficial to the community, especially with Aquarius. And I’m just thinking about mythologically how I believe both planets, Saturn and Jupiter, were the gods of the gods. And so they have this authoritarian… In a way, it could be negative like a god complex sort of thing, or they both share the… But my ideas are right. I see that a lot with Aquarius as well.
RB: Yes, that’s the sort of trouble that sometimes Sagittarius has with Aquarius is that Aquarius is fixed and so it knows what it knows. Its ideals and its beliefs are set in stone and can’t easily be budged, whereas Sagittarius likes to sort of flow more and grow in its idea. It will shift from one idea to another or learn about a new philosophy or a new way of thinking and adopt that, whereas Aquarius is like, “No, I reject that.”
CB: Yeah, that’s a good point because they both can share an ideological dogmatism in common. They can both be dogmatic ideologically. But Sagittarius is a little bit more flexible and maybe a little bit more willing to explore other options whereas as a fixed Saturn-ruled sign, Aquarius once it’s sort of established something, it can be a little bit more stuck in its ways or a little bit more obstinate about not changing.
RB: I like the word resolute for Aquarius. This is sort of like, “I have thought about this, and I have a firm view on it now.” And it will take a lot to budge an Aquarius from that view once they’ve formed it. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Both are very somewhat intellectual signs. One is a fire sign and the other is an air sign. And I really liked what you said earlier, Rob, about rejecting social convention for Aquarius because it’s a very common thing that comes up over and over again and I think is an outgrowth of the Saturn rulership. Because Saturn likes to reject things and it’s sort of opposite to Leo and opposite to the Sun of rejecting that which is popular or that which everything else is revolving around. Which is like Leo in the Sun and Saturn. And Aquarius sets itself apart by standing outside of that or opposite to that in some ways. I think in that way, you’re right, that Sagittarius sometimes can get along well with or can admire that in Aquarius because it sees it in itself in terms of that desire for authenticity, basically, and being authentic above all else.
RB: Yeah, I’m trying to think of something that they don’t get. What are some problems maybe? I think there’s a– we already mentioned the fixed versus mutable kind of clash a little bit. One other thing, it’s probably in a similar vein with other modalities, is that Aquarius tends to like things to be organized and ordered. Whereas I think there’s more of a chaotic quality to Sagittarius. They’re happy to live with mess and chaos in their lives a bit more, whereas Aquarius would like to have everything neat and tidy.
CB: To plan things out. Yeah, to plan things out versus to have things up in the air and just sort of to think on your feet, or to not necessarily plan out exactly what’s going to happen in the future but to leave your schedule open to some extent.
RB: Yes, I’m reminded of that earlier example of the astrologer who just bought a bunch of video equipment and just set out to… Because this will work out for sure, you know? [laughter] And Aquarius would not like that approach. We prefer to have a plan and have a structure, a Saturnian structure to things. Yeah.
CB: Yeah, for sure. And in that way, that can be part of a tension as there can be a little bit more of a pessimism to Aquarius as a Saturn-ruled sign or a focus or ability to see the faults are the defects in some things, to see the shortcomings in something. And it tries to plan for the future by anticipating those things so as to avoid making those mistakes. But there can be a critical quality to that that is similar to Capricorn but not quite as internalized with Aquarius, and I think that can be a little bit of the difference between Aquarius and and Sagittarius.
RB: Yeah, yes. Both of the Saturnian signs have a realism to them and like a pessimism to some extent. And Sag doesn’t like that. It doesn’t like being told that things won’t work out or, you know? Yeah, Sag needs to believe in the possibility of a better future.
AP: I feel like Sag wants to look at the bright side and Saturn Aquarius wants to look at the dark side a little bit, or is comfortable with it at least.
CB: Yeah. Aquarius also as an air sign can be cold and there can be this scientific sterile sort of coldness to it a little bit as well in terms of looking at the future and other things, whereas with Sagittarius it’s a bit more warmer, a bit more optimistic. They can both be forward-thinking, though, in a way which is kind of interesting and similar in terms of the two of them.
RB: Yeah, they’re both future-oriented. The difference is that I think Aquarius approaches the future with like, “This is maybe something that might work out badly, how do I make sure that doesn’t happen?” Whereas Jupiter is more like… Sorry, Sagittarius is looking towards the future with excitement and optimism and hope. I think Aquarius is a little bit worried about hope, and worried about whether that’s going to be misplaced and it’s going to lead you to some bad outcomes.
CB: Right. All right, I think that’s good for the sextile signs. Where are we at? We’ve done Scorpio and Capricorn for the most part as the sign that comes before and the sign that’s after. The only two we are missing are the two otherwise aversion signs of Taurus and Cancer?
AP: I think so.
RB: Yeah. Taurus, actually, maybe.
AP: [laughs] Taurus!
CB: So Taurus is ruled by Venus, it’s an Earth sign, it’s fixed and it’s nocturnal or feminine sign. Part of the issue here is it shares nothing in common in terms of those qualities with Sagittarius, so that there’s a lack of similarity or a lack of ability to sort of see each other or recognize each other because they just don’t share a lot in common. So there’s an initial, you know, if things that are alike gravitate to each other or flow together more easily, things that are different have a harder time coming together.
AP: Yeah, that’s actually a tough one for me and I carry both of those signs prominently. But I feel like one of the first things that I think of with those two is the love of nature. They may be different ways of loving nature but Taurus is very Earthy nature… I don’t know any better words to use, but I associate that a lot with Taurus. And then I look at Sagittarius who, again, going back to the hunter, half animal feels comfortable in nature as well. So I think they share that quality.
CB: One of the things that I said in the Libra episode is that Taurus is like a garden, and Libra is like an art gallery.
AP: Oh, I like that.
RB: Yeah, they both get something out of being in nature, right? Taurus gets a lot out of being in for example, the garden, you know? They enjoy being there, they enjoy the sights and sounds and the smells and the immediate impact of the garden like its beauty and the feeling you get from being in it, you know? And Sagittarius might be looking at the plants and going, “Oh, that’s a rare blah, blah blah plant! That comes from all the way over in Asia,” [laughs] and they’re interested in the, “Oh! This is inspiring me being here.” Or going camping, for example. Taurus might love that back to the roots, back to simple way of living when they go camping. That kind of like, this is so Earthy and grounded. And Sagittarius likes the adventure of it and likes how different it is to everyday life. And they enjoy that sort of alien experience in some ways. Yeah.
CB: Yeah, I think I think Taurus would have an issue of… Sagittarius would have an issue of needing… Taurus likes tending to a garden and going every day and just watering the plants and the regularity and being grounded and how you come back to something that you’re just taking care of on a day-to-day basis. And I think part of the tension there initially would be Sagittarius would get bored with that because it doesn’t present a lot of new stuff, you’re having to do the same thing over and over again. But if you presented that in Sagittarius being able to travel around to different places where it’s seeing new gardens or parks or camping or something like that, then that would make sense. Because as you said, Rob, there would be a sense of adventure there, which is very important for such.
RB: Yeah. We haven’t used that word yet, I think– adventure– but that is a really good keyword for Sagittarius. Yes.
RB: Yeah. Reminds me a little bit of…
CB: Hold on. What were you gonna say, Ashley, before I interrupted?
AP: Oh, I’m sorry. I don’t want to lose my train of thought. But I was kind of thinking, Taurus, you guys mentioned bringing the senses to them. They get to experience physically all the senses in the garden; sounds, smells, the touch on the grass, all of those things. Sag also has this deep connection or things that they feel, but it’s like they’re inspired by like you said, “Oh, look at this flower. The way that it’s structured reminds me of this idea. This bigger idea.”
CB: Of the idea of the golden mean or something like that?
AP: Yeah, exactly. Like, I’m intellectually making this. Like, “Oh, my gosh! This is how life is brought together!” Whereas Taurus is like, “I’m just soaking it in physically. I’m feeling it.”
CB: Well, Taurus would be like, “No, just smell the flower. It smells good.”
AP: Yeah. Like, stop trying to overthink it. [laughs]
CB: You don’t need to intellectualize it?
RB: Yes, that’s a really great contrast between the science. I think we’ve kind of nailed it there, Ashley. Like that is a practical and immediate interest for Taurus and Sagittarius focuses on things that are far off and more lofty. And that can be a clash sometimes. I have a friend who’s a Taurus and we both are very into video games. But the tastes in video games are very different. He likes old video games he remembers from his childhood and he loves to just play them over and over again. And he likes simple games, like he likes the old Nintendo games because there’s two buttons, it’s nice and simple.
AP: Aw, and classic.
RB: Yeah. And I like some complex strategy game that’s very huge and sort of slowly expanding across the world. You can see that sort of difference in that I like things that are sort of a high-mindedness to it and he likes something that’s more simple. We share that love of games because, you know? And you can look at that in terms of the benefics. Like Taurus ruled by Venus loves fun and games and Sagittarius ruled by Jupiter also likes to have a good time and have fun. But they go about it in a different way. They have very different philosophy, very different psychology, but there’s a shared interest in having fun, having a good time, making sure that other people are enjoying themselves. They’re kind of this– what do we call it– a hedonistic kind of trait to the both of them.
CB: Yeah, they like the enjoyment of good things but they might have different preferences about the way they go about enjoying good things. I think of like food tastes; Taurus, for example, when it finds something it likes in terms of food, it will go back to that over and over again and it finds joy in familiarity and the familiarity of knowing what they like and having very definitive tastes on what they like, and sometimes having problems going outside of that because they worry about if they try something new they might not like it, when they could have had that thing that they originally had. Which is something a lot of the fixed signs share in common but especially Taurus versus Sagittarius wanting to be adventurous with its tastes in trying different foods from different cultures or different places. Or maybe if it had an option between trying something that they’ve had 10 times over the past week versus trying a new food that they’ve never had, they would opt for the new food.
RB: Yeah, Sagittarius seeks out difference and seeks out the unfamiliar and enjoys experiencing things that are really alien or really strange. Because they just love that it’s like an amazing learning experience and being transported. You know? But Taurus really wants to stick with what it knows and it’s sort of nervous about the idea of change and novelty and things like that.
AP: Yeah, and they almost both like to overindulge sometimes and those things. They’re very different. Like you said with Taurus, they’re always going for that same food. They will gladly overindulge in that same item over and over again. And Sag will gladly overindulge in just over-expanding themselves. So I think they hold that gluttonous quality in a way, indulgence quality. [laughs]
RB: Yeah. I think this is a bit of an esoteric take but I’m a Sagittarius I’m gonna go with that. In William Lily’s Christian Astrology, he describes the body shapes of different planets, what they look like. You know? And both Venus and Jupiter, he says they’re prone to being a bit fleshy a little bit like kind of rotund. Perhaps because they have that hedonistic quality, they just love their food and drinking. But Sagittarius wants to try the new Japanese restaurant that opened around the corner. Taurus wants to just have that good old home cooking that they’re familiar with or whatever it might be.
CB: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Speaking of home cooking, that might be a good transition to the last sign to contrast, which is Cancer, which is the other sign that is in aversion to Sagittarius. So Cancer is ruled by the Moon, it’s a cardinal sign, it’s a water sign, and it’s nocturnal slash feminine. So that one’s even a little bit more different than Taurus in some ways, and I think it’s… One of the contrasts here is external versus internal, or what’s the psychological associations in modern times of extraversion versus introversion? [crosstalk] Yeah, introvert versus extrovert of maybe more of a tendency for Cancer to be more introverted, versus Sagittarius being so much more extroverted sign personality-wise.
RB: Yeah, absolutely. There’s definitely a contrast. There is a very inward-looking component to Cancer. And they sort of feel their way through life, you know? And Sagittarius is very outward, very open, and sort of dives into things. Kind of a little bit of a defensive quality to Cancer so a little bit similar to Scorpio, they have a shell, you know? And they protect that watery nature inside of them. They’re a bit more closed off and Sagittarius is very loud and proud and out there. You know? Like, “Here I am.” Maybe Cancer might admire that in Sagittarius, that earnestness and openness. But Cancer can always feel free to be so open and so honest and trusting. They want to sort of protect themselves with the shell of the crab. Yeah.
AP: And empathy, I feel like is a strong Cancer or water keyword. And not saying that Sagittarius doesn’t have empathy, but that’s something that we have to be conscious of having. Because we get so set in our ways and what we’re doing is right, whereas Cancer may pick up more on like, “Whoa, this is maybe hurting somebody by expressing this this way.” And Sag is just like, “I don’t care, I’m gonna say it anyways.” I’m also thinking about the Moon as a guiding light of the night. It guides people in darkness but then Jupiter in a way, even though it’s not as visual or you can’t see it as well, it’s still a guiding light in a way. Like, as the teachers of the zodiac, we want to guide you on where you could potentially go. The Moon does that in a way.
RB: There is that one shared quality they have– well, somewhat shared– that Cancer is the exaltation of Jupiter. So Jupiter does well in Cancer. Other than Sagittarius and Pisces, it’s the next best place for Jupiter to be in the zodiac. So there’s something about Cancer that Jupiter thrives in that space, which is interesting to think about. And maybe to add something to do with the earnestness and openness of Sagittarius, because Cancer is very heart-led. They are the heartfelt sign and they make decisions based on the heart, you know? Like the feeling in your chest that you have, that’s where they’re going to make decisions. Particularly Cancer rising is going to make decisions based on what the heart is telling them. Jupiter has this jovial quality, this earnestness, this earnestness, and openness. They’re opening the heart. They’re not afraid of baring the heart for people and wearing their heart on their sleeve. There’s something there. I think about the heart-led nature of Cancer that Jupiter actually does well when it’s there.
CB: Yeah. Connected with the exaltation thing, there’s a life-affirming quality for both of them or something important about Cancer and supporting life in some way. Sometimes we think about… In the Cancer episode, we talked about nurturing as a Cancer trait and what nurturing actually is and what it’s like to take care of somebody or to have the impulse to cook for somebody– to cook food for somebody and the nourishing quality of that, to nourish something. That’s a major focus of Cancer and while that’s not a major focus for Sagittarius necessarily, there might be more of a broader sense of that which is nourishing for the soul as opposed to that which is nourishing for the soul or the mind with Sagittarius versus for Cancer, that which is nourishing for the body.
RB: Oh, another thing came up for me. Sorry, Ashley. I’ll just quickly mention this in William Lily again. I keep mentioning Lily today for some reason. In his book Christian Astrology he describes-
CB: The 17th-century astrologer.
RB: 17th-century astrologer, yeah. He wrote the first complete textbook about astrology in English. He describes the personalities of the signs and he says something about the Moon that always stayed with me. It lives in the back of my mind rent-free about the Moon, which is he says that lunar people, they desire to live free of the cares of this world. You know? They don’t want to be troubled. And I think there’s a similar freedom-loving quality there with Sagittarius. I think there’s something about Cancer that might want to just pack up and live in a van and just go out and not be bothered with all this pressures that are put on them by society. I think there’s another shared quality there with Sagittarius, is that desire to be free of burden and free of stress and free of worry. Sorry, Ashley, I keep talking over you. I’m terribly sorry. It’s my Aries rising coming through.
AP: Oh no, you’re good. You just have these ideas that are just coming. [laughter] It’s not a big one but I was just thinking that Cancer is a little more forgiving because they have that nurturing quality and they want to help people grow and evolve in a nurturing way. You know, they’re just more forgiving. And I feel like Sagittarius is a lot less forgiving because they have that independent quality to themselves that they expect everyone to be independent. Like, “Why do you need this person to cook for you?” And Cancer’s like, “Well, I want to cook for this person because I care about them and this is affection for me.” And Sag may see it as, “Oh, they’re grown adults. They can do these things for themselves.” So, that’s a big difference I see.
RB: Yeah, less compromising. Yeah, that sort of fiery firebrand nature of Jupiter is more scornful, you know? If it feels that something’s… That sense of justice you mentioned earlier as well, Ashley, about Sagittarius that they’re not so ready to forgive, you know? They might think of themselves as being merciful, but there’s also this sort of like, “Let’s throw them into hell,” kind of like Sagittarius as well, you know? Yeah.
AP: [laughs] Let’s teach them a little bit more.
CB: One last thing I was thinking of was that a contrast and an almost incompatibility between those two signs is that Cancer might have a reputation of being more of a homebody, versus Sagittarius is more like the traveler or the explorer or the adventurer. And in that way, they have a almost sort of conflict or tension there in terms of the direction that they would both gravitate towards if just left to their default, their usual devices.
RB: Yes, yes. I think given the opportunity, a Sag would love to go explore and go witness new things, different things. Whereas Cancer probably prefers the familiar and something that’s safe and secure. [unintelligible 00:24:24] an issue with security with Cancer, concern about security. Whereas Sagittarius is less worried about that. They’re more bold. I don’t think Sagittarius has even considered that someone might try and attack them or hurt them or, you know? [laughs] It’s the last thing on your mind. So yeah, like you said Chris, given the opportunity, where would they go? What would they do? Cancer might go home.
AP: And I like the word familiar for Cancer– like family, familiar. And Sagittarius almost is most comfortable with the unfamiliar because it expands them. And Cancer feels comfort and security in familiarity. I like that word.
CB: Yeah, and risk-taking. Sagittarius is less risk-adverse and more prone towards taking risks, versus Cancer tends to be a little bit more cautious in terms of risk-taking.
AP: And [sidestep the crab] whereas Sag was going forward. [chuckles]
CB: Yeah. Which more direct both literally and sometimes also personality-wise, there’s a directness to Sagittarius where there might be more of an indirectness to Cancer.
RB: Yeah. Sag is often said to be blunt, or just to say exactly what’s on their mind, and that might offend people around them, you know? [Ashley laughs]
CB: Right. That might hurt Cancer’s feelings [unintelligible]
RB: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think if any sign’s going to take what Sagittarius says in the worst way and feel like their feelings have been hurt or they’ve been insulted by a Sagittarius, it might be Cancer.
CB: For sure. All right, you two. I think looking at the signs of the zodiac as long as we don’t do anything crazy like add a 13th sign or something like that, I think that is all 12. [Rob laughs] And we have successfully talked about Sagittarius in general and then we’ve also successfully compared it to the other signs for the most part pretty thoroughly, I think, at this point. Right?
AP: I think so. I think we did a great job.
CB: Yeah, this is amazing. Thank you both. Is there anything before we wrap up and mention our websites and everything else that we want to mention or anything that we forgot to mention or that we should have covered that we’ll kick ourselves for as soon as we stop recording?
RB: I don’t think. I think I’ve got everything that I wanted to say out. But yeah, it’s been a great conversation.
AP: I actually do have something I want to add from my notes, very few little things. I don’t know if you guys are familiar with Tarot at all… But the temperance card or the art card are associated with Sag. And it’s like the art of alchemy, basically. It’s like taking the good and the bad and creating something out of it. So that’s something that I think Sag is very good at, is that alchemical process of taking both the good and the bad and creating something beneficial from that. Speaking of alchemy, my favorite book growing up as a kid was The Alchemist. [chuckles] And I really resonate or I really felt close to the character taking a journey. He was on this physical journey but throughout this process of the journey, he actually learned that it’s not about where you’re going, it’s not your destination, it’s the actual journey and the travels and everything that you’re encountering on the road to that goal. And that’s just such a strong Sagittarius story to me.
AP: And then one last thing going with the bow and arrow, the archer. I am an archer myself, I do archery, and I’m just naturally a champ at it. And thinking about it… Let me actually see if I have a note here. Sorry, guys. But essentially it’s like using tension, creating tension, and using that tension with focus in a way. We talked about Sagittarius loves creating disruption and tension between people but using the tension of the bow to actually go further. And there is a goal and purpose to this tension and once that’s released, then we want to pick up another one. We want to keep on with those goals. I just really liked the whole archer connection to it.
RB: That’s fantastic that you’re an archer in astrology and in real life as well. I love that. [laughs]
AP: Thank you. My archer father taught me, who’s a Sag as well. So I love it.
CB: Oh yes, that was actually a funny point that your father is a… So you’re Sun sign Sag, your father’s a Sun sign Sag, and then I think you said your mother’s Sag rising?
CB: Okay, that’s really funny in terms of the repetition of family placements. Then Rob, didn’t you say your father was a Sag?
RB: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, my father’s Sagittarius. I think he also has Gemini Moon as well just like me, and I similarly have the Sagittarius Sun Gemini Moon. So yeah, there’s something going on there.
CB: Yeah, there’s something to that just because like I said in the last episode, I’m a Scorpio Sun and then my mom and dad are both Scorpio Sun.
AP: Yeah, that’s very interesting. As soon as I heard that your father’s first of all just matched the Sun, it’s something to look into.
RB: The synastry charts when you do the overlay is very cool to see.
Ap: Yes. Seeing the patterns within your family and seeing, “Oh, that’s…! I am both of my parents.”
CB: Right. Yeah. All right, awesome. Well, I think that brings us to the end of this episode. Where can we find out more information or tell me about your work and what you have coming up? Ashley, what are you doing? What are your plans for the future?
AP: My plans for the future is to be more accessible online with astrology things. I do have a website that you can access, and then I also have an Instagram that I like to talk about astrology on here and there. Nice, what’s your Instagram handle? It is @_thehighpriestess_. We may have to post it because there’s a lot of little underscores and stuff in there.
CB: Okay, sure. And your URL for your domain is ashleyrparis.com. Right?
AP: That’s right. I also want to point out that it’s kind of funny that I’m the High Priestess on Instagram, and Sagittarius is the priest priestess, so… [laughs] I’ll be easy to find.
CB: Awesome. Cool. I’ll put a link to that. And then Rob, what about you? What are you working on?
RB: Yes. At the moment, I’m still doing horary astrology readings. My books are open for horary astrology readings. If you want to get a reading from me, a horary astrology reading, you can go to my website which is oldschoolastrology.com. I’m also working with you, Chris, on the early stages of our course where we’re going to be teaching horary astrology to people. And we recorded our first video lecture just a couple of days ago. So apart from my readings in horary, I’ll also be focusing on preparing the course materials for that course, which is super exciting.
CB: Yeah, and I’m also excited about that because we’ve been planning this for a couple of years now and we finally just recorded the first lecture just two days ago. So it’s the horary astrology course, which is available at courses.theastrologyschool.com. What we’re doing is, I had an older course that was recorded about a decade ago that is up and is available right now, and then we’re going to be basically adding new lectures to and slowly reviving that course over the next few months. But people can already sign up for that if they want to get early access to it as we release those videos. And then we’ll basically just grandfather and whoever’s already signed up once we raise the price eventually once we finish the lecture series sometime next year.
RB: Yeah, so you can get in early for a cheaper price now and get access to that new content once it’s up. Yeah, very exciting and we’ve been working on it and talking about it for a long time, and it’s just a great feeling to actually be in the process of doing it. It’s like we’ve mentioned in the talk today, Sagittarius is really great about ideas but then actually making it happen is another thing. So it’s good to have someone with some Saturnian placements, you know, strong Saturnian nature with Chris here to make this a reality and make the dream a reality, you know? So in terms of my socials, I’m very active on Twitter, my handle’s @oldschoolastro. I’m also on Instagram @oldschoolastrology.
CB: Cool. Awesome. I’ll put links to both of your websites in the description either below this video on YouTube or on the Astrology Podcast website for the entry for this episode. But otherwise, I think that’s it. So thank you both for joining me today, this was amazing.
RB: Thank you so much, Chris. Just really enjoyed the conversation. It’s so nice to meet you, Ashley, and talk astrology with you. I just had a great time.
AP: Yeah. So good to meet you, and I feel like we had such an expansive conversation. So I hope everyone gets something great out of this, too.
RB: Feel inspired and [laughs] full of high ideas.
AP: Aim high, everybody! [chuckles]
CB: Cool. All right. Well, thanks everyone for watching or listening to this episode of the Astrology Podcast. That’s it for this episode, so we’ll see you again next time.
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