The Astrology Podcast
Transcript of Episode 375, titled:
With Chris Brennan, Sam Reynolds, and Kirah Tabourn
Episode originally released on November 13, 2022
Note: This is a transcript of a spoken word podcast. If possible, we encourage you to listen to the audio or video version, since they include inflections that may not translate well when written out. Our transcripts are created by human transcribers, and the text may contain errors and differences from the spoken audio. If you find any errors then please send them to us by email: email@example.com
Transcribed by Mary Sharon
Transcription released November 14, 2022
Copyright © 2022 TheAstrologyPodcast.com
CHRIS BRENNAN: Hey, my name is Chris Brennan and you’re listening to The Astrology Podcast. In this episode, we’re going to be doing a deep dive into the meaning of the zodiac sign Scorpio. Joining me today are astrologers Kirah Tabourn and Samuel F. Reynolds. Welcome both of you.
SAMUEL REYNOLDS: Hey, Chris.
KIRAH TABOURN: Thanks so much, Chris.
CB: Yeah, thanks for joining me during Scorpio season with two of my favorite Scorpio friends. We’re going to basically do a really extensive– this is the eighth episode in this series so far where we’re going to be talking about the eighth sign of the zodiac Scorpio. We’re going to be talking about its core meanings and doing sort of a deep dive into what it’s all about, and also comparing and contrasting it with some of the other signs of the zodiac. Yeah, so that’s kind of the setup for this episode. Usually where I begin with this series is I kind of ask people what their credentials are. In this instance, what are your credentials as a Scorpio? If you feel as a Scorpio sharing those credentials, it’s fine. Whatever you do or do not feel like sharing. Where are the two of you at with that?
KT: I think it’s funny because Sam and I have creepily similar charts. But I do have more Scorpio planets, I think. Just one. [Sam laughs] I have a Sun-Mars-Pluto conjunction in Scorpio.
CB: Okay. Do you feel comfortable sharing your chart or where you are with that?
T: Yeah, I’m comfortable with it.
CB: Okay, I’ll put it on the screen really quick. That’s cool.
KT: Yeah. It’d be cool to see it compared to Sam’s too.
CB: Yeah, and that was kind of the genesis of this episode is you reached out to me talking about we could do the Scorpio episode together. And then I looked at your chart and I was just reminded of how similar it is to Sam’s. So you have Pisces rising and then you have the Sun, Mars, and Pluto up in Scorpio in the ninth whole sign house, and Jupiter in Virgo in the seventh whole sign house.
CB: That’s pretty good. Three planets stellium in Scorpio is pretty good credentials so far as far as stelliums go. Sam, what’s yours? Do you share your chart?
SR: I do share my chart. You can put my chart up. And I just realized no, Kirah, we have got the same amount of planets in Scorpio.
KT: Oh, yeah? Okay.
SR: Yeah. So I guess my credentials… And I also have a lot of fortune in Scorpio. But we do have very similar charts with only a degree in terms of our Ascendants. We both have fire Moons, our Venuses are in the eighth house. So there are a lot of parallels. We have dignified Marses, I think so. [crosstalk]
CB: For the audio listeners, Sam has Pisces rising also with Mercury, Neptune and the Sun all in Scorpio in the ninth whole sign house, and Jupiter in Virgo in the seventh whole sign house. And you both have actually Venus in Libra, that’s really wild.
CB: Those are pretty similar charts and yeah, I think pretty good credentials. You both have three planets in Scorpio that a lot of fortune though is like pushing things a little bit over in terms of stelliums go so I don’t know, I’m not going to get in the middle of that dispute. But those are both worthwhile stelliums. Yeah, I do have to say though I also have some Scorpio placements in terms of my credentials, so I should share that really quickly. My Chart is Aquarius rising and I have the Sun, Saturn, Mercury, Pluto in the South Node and Scorpio.
SR: Yeah, you got to speak.
CB: Yeah, that’s like in the poker game where somebody lays down a full house at the end.
SR: [laughs] You are more Scorpio than us.
KT: Literally a full house.
CB: We’ll see. We’ll see during the course of this episode. All right. So, where do we begin here when it comes to Scorpio? Let me start by showing some graphics for those watching the video version in order to just outline some of the basic stats about Scorpio and some of the conceptual structure that we’re going to be using for this episode. Here is the signs of the zodiac, the 12 signs of the zodiac where we see Scorpio as the eighth sign from our starting point which was Aries way back earlier this year. So Scorpio is said to be a feminine or nocturnal sign. It’s a water sign in terms of the four elements of Earth, air, fire, and water. In terms of modalities, it’s said to be a Fixed sign in terms of the three modalities of cardinal, fixed, and mutable. In terms of the traditional rulership scheme, Scorpio is said to be ruled by the planet Mars, and it’s said to be the nocturnal sign that Mars rules as opposed to Aries which is the diurnal or masculine sign that Mars rules. Scorpio is said to be the sign of the fall or the depression of the Moon in terms of essential dignity. And it’s also said to be the sign of the detriment or the antithesis of Venus because it’s opposite to one of Venus is ruling signs which is Taurus, which you can see here just in the arrangement of the signs of the zodiac how Scorpio is a fixed water, feminine sign ruled by Mars, and its opposite to Taurus which is a feminine fixed Earth sign which is ruled by Venus. All right, so those are the basic stats when it comes to Scorpio. Where should we start here? Or where do the two of you start when you talk about this sign or when you try to explain to clients or teach it to students? What are some of the first things that come to mind?
SR: For me, it starts where you started in terms of Mars dealing with water and the fixity of it. Because one of the challenges I often find with students is that they may often not understand why signs are the way they are beyond just their experience or anecdotal evidence. So the reason why we often associate, say, a certain intensity with Scorpio or certain quality of an intention– because it’s still a Mars sign. And Mars is very much interested in kind of breaking through and some way of getting to get another level the battle. But for Scorpio, the battle is often internal. Doesn’t mean it’s never external but you know, we wage a lot of wars within ourselves before they ever go outside. And that’s the nature of water. And so water is a lot more internal processing, receptive, which many call feminine. So by virtue of that, Mars goes as a contrast to Aries from the external battle to dealing with the inner jihad, the battle that wages from within. And as a Fixed sign, you know, is trying to stabilize and get to some measure of I guess some level of consistency on point and purpose. So I think the elements of how we understand the sign is right there between the modality, the element, and the planet in charge.
CB: I like that, that’s a really good point. And one of the keywords you use, it’s a good one for Mars and thinking about this as a Mars-ruled sign is you’re talking a little bit about it having almost a penetrating quality. And that does seem to be like a recurring theme for Scorpio both in the animal’s symbol for this sign which is a scorpion that has a stinger, but also just more metaphorically the notion of the penetrative quality of Scorpio comes up in the archetype a lot, it seems like?
KT: Yeah, penetration is one of my favorite Scorpio words for sure. Even thinking about the glyph of Mars and the glyph of Scorpio both having that sort of, you know, that Stinger, that tail, that thing that can really pierce. And yeah, similarly I would start with being a fixed water sign. But I always like to draw the comparison between diurnal Mars and nocturnal Mars or Mars as the ruler of Aries versus the ruler of Scorpio. And sort of Mars being the warrior, the fighter. And so it’s like, how do we fight in the daytime versus the nighttime? And how Mars and Aries or Aries is so much about forging a path and sort of fighting in this more, I would say– not intuitive, what’s the word? Like, there’s an initiative quality to it and an instinctual quality I think to Aries type of fight, where it’s the ‘just do it.’ You’re on the battlefield, there’s a spear coming at you or something. You can’t really think, you just have to do. Whereas Scorpio-
CB: Like the first one to the bridge or the person that’s at the front of the line just running in?
KT: Exactly. Yeah.
CB: It’s the Aries energy.
KT: It’s the Aries diurnal daytime fighting. Versus the nocturnal type of fight, a lot more about strategy, it’s a lot more about being secretive, maybe sneaking up on your opponent… I think it was Austin Coppock who I first heard this from comparing Aries and Scorpio as the daytime warrior on the frontlines of battle versus the ninja and the one that’s sneaking in the shadows and having to be very cunning and strategic and waiting a little bit more as opposed to just doing it and just going for it. That’s typically where I like to start, it’s a quieter, secretive, more secretive type of fighting or of battling of war.
SR: And I think that’s true… Sorry, I was gonna also say we can even start with the actual creature associated with the sign, the arachnid. You know, arachnids in general, which includes spiders and of course the scorpion are venomously named. They’re patient, and then they will come upon their prey and strike. So I think that really kind of relates to the idea of the sign.
CB: Yeah, I like that. So the difference between the warrior versus the assassin is more of the Scorpio archetype to some extent. That reminds me of something Robert Zoller said to me once where he said that… He said Aries is like a machine gun fire, whereas Scorpio is like a sniper rifle. That was part of his differentiation also between the sort of chaoticness of the cardinal fire sign ruled by Mars of Aries versus a fixed water sign where it has more of a singular focus or a singular intensity of its attack or its outburst. It’s more directed and careful in some ways.
SR: Yeah, if we had to define cardinality it would be more like, you know, ready, aim… Let’s say ready, fire, aim. Right? And so Scorpio’s more like, “Let’s aim, aim and have focus and control.”
CB: Yeah, so it’s just only having to do that one thing once and making it perfect, making the perfect almost killing shot something at that time. So, other things one of you mentioned… We were talking about penetrating and Kirah you mentioned piercing as another synonym. That reminded me something of a common Scorpio stereotype, which is the piercing eyes or the piercing gaze that sometimes gets associated with Scorpios.
KT: Yeah, that’s definitely a thing. Yeah, the eagle stare or [chuckles] I’m sure it’s been called a bunch of different terms but yeah, there is this very penetrative piercing quality to a Scorpio’s stare, even a Scorpio rising.
SR: Especially a Scorpio rising.
KT: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: I think that goes into the notion that sometimes Scorpios that one of the core archetypes is that trying to get to the bottom of something. And then that does actually go back to the archetype of penetration and the notion of digging down deep into something to get to the core of something and sort of pushing away surface or, you know, what’s a better synonym for surface thing? Almost like shallow things. But instead really wanting to understand something down at its deepest level.
SR: The bottom line. Yeah. You know, to see the truth of it. One of the things I always say, and I usually apply this more to the Scorpio rising but it could be applicable to all the different permutations of Scorpio. Scorpio, even if we look at it seasonally, which is always tricky because it depends on where you are in the globe, but if you’re talking about in the Northern hemisphere, it’s kind of looking at the balances tip between light and darkness going more toward darkness. So Scorpio is kind of really trying to see what’s really there and trying to get more to the essence of things. You know, right now in the Northern hemisphere we’re dealing with fall and we’re dealing with things appearing to die, but at the same time the generative powers of light or life are really kind of coming forth as these different plants are dropping their fruits and their eggs– we could say their their seeds– in order to kind of regenerate life. And so the Scorpio is trying to say, “We see life really there and we can say that by extension, truth.” So I always joke with a Scorpio rising if I had to choose between a lie detector and a Scorpio rising, I probably would always choose a Scorpio rising because they’re really trying to see what’s really there and they have a very strong bullshit detector.
CB: Yeah, getting to the truth and truthfulness and honesty and trust are super important Scorpio keywords that are almost like a currency amongst Scorpios.
KT: Yeah, trust, loyalty. I think all the fixed signs care a lot about loyalty and trust but I think for Scorpio it becomes so deeply emotional. And yeah, that’s why I think it’s such a powerful part of yeah, you said it perfectly, the currency. That definitely hits.
CB: Yeah, cuz I was thinking about that because trust is important and sometimes trust comes through sometimes sharing secrets. But trusting somebody or a Scorpio, especially trusting somebody with secrets is a form of vulnerability, and underlying everything that’s really one of the core things. And it’s something that came up when I asked for keywords on Twitter that people associate with Scorpios is even though they don’t usually have that reputation as much as the other two water signs, Cancer and Pisces which are often associated as the more emotional signs due to their watery nature, Scorpio also is a water sign. It’s just like a fixed water sign so people sometimes associate that with ice or something like that. But underlying a lot of that because it’s a water sign is a tremendous level of vulnerability, but it’s kind of masked by an attempt to protect that through different types of armor and things like that.
SR: Absolutely. And I think when one dimension of Scorpio’s dealing with betrayal, usually the Scorpio by virtue of having experienced betrayal or some way in which there’s been a profound breach of trust, is on a journey to recover some measure of that trust. And often Scorpios may not want to acknowledge that vulnerability, but the truth is it’s really there. And that’s our challenge usually.
CB: Yeah, in doing the research for this episode and preparing for it, Camille Michelle Gray helped me with some research and one of the things that she wrote down and noted in her notes was that Scorpio is one of the only signs that has the animal symbol for it like armor, the actual armor, as part of its basic symbolism, but it’s in order to protect that sort of vulnerable part. So sometimes the armor can be an external thing that sort of pushes people away or keeps people at arm’s length to some extent as a matter of protection of some sort.
SR: Yeah, which relates to Mars. Mars has a certain prickliness defensiveness way, I would say-
CB: Like a cactus?
CB: Like a cactus or something?
SR: A cactus. You know, we had to make again a distinction with the other Mars sign with Aries, that may have a more offensive proactive quality, whereas Scorpio may have more of a reactive defensive quality.
CB: Yeah, that makes sense. It’s like if you touch a scorpion or if you step on a scorpion then you get stung. But the scorpion itself normally is not charging out trying to sting you, it is a matter of self-defense.
KT: I feel like– since we’re talking about scorpions– something I also wanted to bring up about Scorpios and scorpions is just the endurance piece as well. When I think about scorpions, these animals that are typically in deserts but they’re also in forests and rainforests as well. But yeah, they have this sort of… It reminds me of how a desert used to be the ocean, essentially, and how these animals are still dwelling here however long after the environment has changed and being this very destitute place. But yeah, this creature still survives, essentially. And I think that’s another thing about Scorpios, and being Mars-ruled and sort of having this built-in armor is like the survival piece of it and the endurance aspect of a fixed sign in general, but especially Scorpio.
SR: “I will survive!”
KT: [laughs] Yeah.
CB: That’s a good point. So, survivalism and endurance. And maybe the survivalism component partially can come around back to something Sam was mentioning which I think is important, which is the seasonal reference point for where Scorpio season falls in terms of the Sun moving through Scorpio in the Northern hemisphere coinciding with the very middle of the fall season, where all of the leaves on the trees are literally dying and are falling off the trees and falling into decay. So there is this real sense of death as a concept coming up with Scorpios even just through that seasonal metaphor. It’s interesting how that contrasts so much with the opposite sign which is Taurus, where you’re right in the middle of the spring season once all of the flowers are fully in bloom and everything is beautiful, and there’s this real notion of the beauty in some ways of youth and of things that are in their prime at that point with all the plants and everything that are blossoming. Versus once it gets to the other side of the seasons, being right in the middle of the fall season, there’s something about the beauty also and the elegance of death and of things going through that natural cycle of sometimes losing, you know, the end of one phase and the death of one phase of existence, and then the transition into whatever the next phase of existence is.
SR: Yeah, I think we’re the guardians of the promise of life and you actually just inspired that thought; the promise of life that we see manifests related to fall in the Northern hemisphere and then how that manifests related to its fulfillment in Taurus as our polarity. But I also think about generally unless we are not conceived or delivered early, Scorpios most often are conceived in Aquarius, you know, during the time in which we have to deal with the promise of the return of the light. You know, Candlemass. Not literally February 1st itself, but more of the idea where we seem to kind of go toward the coldest moment. And then coming back toward this other moment, you know, the kind of cold wet moment of Aquarius air into the cold wet moment of fixed water. And that’s an interesting dynamic because of all the antiscia points– and we probably do need to explain that– the antiscia points, you know, for the fixed signs they only stay with the fixed signs. So there’s a certain dynamic in our fixity that isn’t true for cardinal or mutable signs in terms of that resurgence of life cycle.
CB: Yeah, that’s a good point about the conception thing. I know that’s something you’ve mentioned frequently, Kirah, right?
KT: Oh, how I celebrate Valentine’s Day as my conception day? [laughs]
SR: Mine too. That’s my father’s birthday, actually.
KT: Oh. Then you actually know… I call my mom every year and I’m like, “Thanks for conceiving me.” [laughs]
CB: That’s so funny but there’s something probably important and significant about that, the notion that most or a lot of Scorpios because it’s eight months later, there’s a lot of Scorpios getting conceived on Valentine’s Day.
KT: Mmh, there’s a lot of us. Yeah, nine months. I was born nine months, four days after so, yeah. [laughter]
CB: Yeah, so there’s something about that I don’t know that maybe ties into something that gets associated with Scorpios in terms of notions of passion and other things like that. I know there’s some debate about that in modern times about different things about how much to associate Scorpio with sex or sexuality, or some of the issues with the 12-letter alphabet and how that gets transferred to the eighth house. But even from a traditional standpoint, there’s something about the fact that even, for example, in the traditional assignment of the different parts of the body, Scorpio is said to rule the genitals and that whole area of the body.
SR: Yeah. Kirah, do you want to talk about that first? I mean, I definitely have a lot to say about it but…
KT: I was just gonna say, you know, the process of excretion. Is that the word? But, yeah. I guess…
SR: Regeneration? I don’t know about excretion.
KT: Yeah, that’s what I was looking for. The regeneration… Actually, you go for it because you probably had something more succinct to say.
SR: No. I don’t know. But yeah, I mean…
CB: I mean, it is associated with both.
SR: Excretion? Getting it out?
CB: Yeah, that whole area of the body in general.
SR: Well, what I would say is that I think we definitely relate to the gonads in terms of that dimension related to sexuality as not so much sex itself. One of the issues I have with people collapsing that, whether we want to talk about that as the astrological alphabet or anything like that or even kind of just laying it at the feet of Alan Leo in terms of the eighth house and that kind of connection, I think the issue with it is it’s one thing to talk about the gonads and our regenerative power, or even excretion as a way of going toward regeneration. And I can elaborate more on that. It’s another thing for that then to say then that as a sign, we’re sex-crazed maniacs. I don’t think that… I think that’s where the joke goes too far. Because for instance Aries, our other Mars brother or sister or them, is related to the head but we don’t associate philosophy with that or all the things that come from the head. So I don’t know why then when we look at the gonads we’re like, “You guys are sex-crazed.” Which I always take particular issue with. Coz it’s funny on an anecdotal or experiential level, I find there are Scorpios who are very much into their sexuality. And then I find Scorpios who are like, “No, I renounced sex in the ’60s.”
CB: But that in and of itself is a type of focus-
KT: Is very Scorpio.
CB: Yeah, is a type of focus on sex and sexuality, where sometimes it can be inverted and it can be the attempt to remove that or place a– not a memorandum. What’s the term when you refuse to do something?
SR: Memorial? What is it? Oh, go on. Sorry.
CB: Yeah, I’m spacing it out. But just the idea of
CB: A moratorium on sex is in and of itself an attempt to control or moderate ones sexuality sometimes if the person feels like it’s getting out of whack. Or even having a sort of aesthetic monk-type approach to sexuality if somebody had Saturn there or something like that can in and of itself be just an expression of still a focus on that area as being important in some way, as opposed to let’s say the average person where it’s not something that’s a major focus in their life in some way.
SR: And I think that’s fair. I think it’s fair to say that one may have a consciousness related to sex as from the gonad, but to kind of make that always proactive? Like, basically people will say about Scorpios, “Oh, you’re a whore,” not recognizing that they can be this moratorium, this contrast. And I actually think a lot about Martin Luther– not Martin Luther King, Martin Luther who was a Scorpio. Martin Luther when he was a monk and going toward this particular point of transformation that became the 99 Theses and everything related to the church and challenging and changes at church. I don’t know if that’s actually 99 Theses, maybe I’m confusing it with something as Islam. But it’s really kind of… He struggled a lot with his sexuality. I don’t mean in terms of his sexual orientation, but he burned a lot in terms of his sexuality. I mean, he couldn’t really be fully satisfied with being a celibate Catholic priest and he didn’t end up and stay one. Makes me also think of Gandhi. Gandhi was a Scorpio rising who also struggled deeply and profoundly in terms of aspects of sexual expression. So I think these two really kind of as an example, de-parallel the struggles for a Scorpio, but again I don’t think that always translates into well, you just out there having sex.
CB: Sure. So your point is it’s not that the sign doesn’t have any association or sometimes focus or preoccupation in some ways with sex or sexuality, but that it doesn’t always necessarily mean promiscuity per se?
CB: Okay, that makes sense.
KT: Yeah. Yeah, I think what you were talking about and you mentioned a lot, Sam, is like an element of control with Scorpio and I think especially when it comes to sex. And I find a lot of times a lot of Scorpios in Scorpio placements lean more on the abstaining side, because I think a huge part of Scorpios is challenging oneself. And I think a lot of that comes from a need for control in some way, shape, or form. And that often can come out in various ways, but with sex, I see it a lot like controlling oneself from having sex or wanting more control over oneself in a way where you’re going out and seeking it more. So yeah, it can go either way but I think control kind of it comes down to that in a lot of aspects.
CB: That’s a really great point that there can be an underlying motivation or overarching archetype of control and attempt to achieve mastery and self-mastery is a major motivating factor.
KT: Yeah. Especially I find that a lot with Scorpio Suns that they’re just always challenging themselves in some way, you know? But yeah, that’s definitely a Scorpio archetype I find a lot.
CB: Okay. [crosstalk]
KT: Oh. I was just gonna say another thing just in regards to the genitals being related to Scorpio, for me it just brought up childbirth and sort of the Martian nature of childbirth. And I guess sex in general. There’s like a Venus and Mars aspect in a lot of ways when it comes to sex, and you talked about that on an episode many, many years ago. Maybe it was just like an anecdote on something but I remember that conversation around how it takes both Venus and Mars often. But yeah, when we’re talking about the act of conceiving a child, and then also the childbirth part of that too, that does seem very Martian. And it just also makes me think about how water signs are the most fertile signs and the animals associated with the water signs have a lot of babies, too. So those things just came up as well.
SR: I guess we also could talk about this act of sexuality. And as you talked about, Kirah, with the Scorpio Suns, but I think we could extend it to the other Scorpio influences of wanting to improve and be stronger. It makes me think of the Scorpio rising Frederick Wilhelm Nietzsche who reportedly said, “That which does not kill me makes me stronger.” And it’s the idea of looking for more strength, perhaps a way of shielding themselves from that vulnerability. And maybe some measure that is tied to one’s sexuality or vitality, that might be the better word. One’s prime sense of vitality.
CB: That’s a good point that reminds me of one of the things that Austin talks about in one of his breakdowns of one of the decans of Scorpios. He mentioned hunger as an underlying keyword for Scorpio, at least for one of the decans, and I thought that was a really interesting and insightful thing to mention in connection with that; the idea of hunger for something. Or even sometimes when that’s out of whack, the notion of insatiability.
KT: Mhm, I use that word to describe myself a lot, insatiable. But yeah, the hunger piece definitely hits pretty hard when talking about Scorpio and Mars-ruled water sign, essentially, how there is this need for retention. And I think that’s the fixity of needing consistency but the retention quality of Scorpio… I often find people with Scorpio placements especially the Moon in Venus will often have problems with being bloated or literal water retention. And there’s an issue with Scorpio about not being able to let go and release, you know? Which the south node I guess has been helping us with lately but yeah, that also comes in with the control element of it, too. But yeah, just the retaining and retention piece too to me kind of goes hand in hand with the hunger and the insatiability and not really having enough.
SR: And it’s not a greed. I think some measure of it taps into the nature, the feral nature. And I’m not talking about it just in terms of the astrology of Mars. One of the things that I often think about too, I kind of tweeted about it recently too, was the idea of the hunter/huntress within the Martian. And I was specifically talking about Björk’s Hunter song. You know, Björk is a triple Scorpio. She has the Sun, Moon and rising in Scorpio. And I learned that her mom is also an astrologer. And in that song which also has an adaptation that was used in one of the Terminator movies, is this idea of I’m going hunting. And there’s some measure of the joy in the pursuit of something. Some people, when you have that as a Scorpio, it kind of just becomes [unintelligible]. I mean, that’s even how I got into astrology. Or deeper into astrology. I could not let it go. I don’t know what I was hunting for, I just knew I was looking for something. I thought I was looking for the fallacy of astrology, that I would discover it’s a trick. And so I was kind of willing or looking to disrobe astrology. I was hunting astrology not realizing ultimately I was being hunted. But that’s also something that happens with Scorpio, you know, we’re in pursuit of something.
SR: I think just hearing you say that I definitely relate and it makes me think of all of our Scorpio stuff being in the ninth house of astrology. I feel like my entrance into it was very similar in that I saw my birth chart on the screen, I Googled it, and I did not sleep that night. I didn’t get a lick of sleep. I just couldn’t stop searching, I looked at every page of Google, and here I am 10 years later and I’m still just as obsessed. So yeah, the hunting piece feels pretty up there as well.
SR: I think it relates to what you’re saying, Chris, which is the hunger. Right? It comes from something that you’re trying to satiate.
CB: Yeah, and developing a passion for something and being very passionate about something. And once that passion is established, having– as we said earlier– endurance. It’s funny you guys mentioned that because I think my entrance into astrology was through conspiracy theories, ironically, and I was super into conspiracy theories as I found it-
SR: No way!
CB: Well, that and some. Like, I was studying Nostradamus and predictions about the future, which is kind of obscure occult-sounding things like that. And then I discovered the concept of birth charts and yeah, I was just completely fascinated by it. And even though I eventually went through a whole journey and process of becoming ironically more skeptical about conspiracy theories eventually, astrology was the one thing that I sort of stuck with that still seemed to be valid and that I was so fascinated by that I realized that that was what I wanted to spend my life studying, essentially.
SR: Wow, I didn’t know that about you. It’s something new to learn. It’s cool.
CB: Yeah. Well, and that’s a thing maybe that we could mention as well with Scorpios is sometimes they have this sensitivity to what’s going on behind the scenes, which can be really good and it can make them sort of intuitive– not necessarily always just in a psychic sense or something like that, but just having a good intuition for what’s going on and what the undercurrents are that are flowing beneath the surface of things. And I think that’s actually probably part of the corrective quality that Scorpio has as the sign that follows after Libra is that Libra can sometimes be more about surface-level things and what’s going on the surface and that being very important to keep up almost surface appearances as the primary focus, whereas Scorpio goes much more internal and much more insight as much more focused on what’s happening behind the scenes. But I think in that impulse, sometimes that impulse for Scorpio can short circuit sometimes and it can lead to– when it gets out of control– a paranoia or a conspiratorial thinking, and sometimes the best thing to get away from that that they have a hard time letting go of is that not everything is a conspiracy or a plot and sometimes stuff just happens. Everything’s not always planned out behind the scenes necessarily in this grand master way.
SR: Yeah, it’s kind of like paranoia means the thorough idea of something beyond knowing. And I think it’s not that– and this is kind of going along with this general idea of conspiracy and conspiracy theory– is that it’s not that no one may be out to get you, it’s not everyone is out to get you. So I think that’s where Scorpios kind of take, figuratively, the joke too far in thinking that it’s this person… I once had a roommate who was a Scorpio who had that sensibility. And it was interesting I wasn’t into astrology that deep at that moment, but reflectively I kind of realized that oh, that might be true about Scorpio. Because that when I met him, I was like… You know, I went into his dorm room and he had a pillowcase over his mirror. And I was like, “Why is your pillowcase over your mirror?” Because he was actually talking to someone else and I was kind of the third wheel, and I couldn’t resist asking him, “Why is your pillowcase over your mirror?” He said, “Oh, because they’re looking at me.” “Who are they?” He used to go, “The people next door,” and I was like, “This is fascinating.” I decided not to comment on it and I don’t know why I ended up as his roommate other than through that other mutual friend, because that paranoia didn’t go away. But that is one particular extreme. And again I won’t just completely dismiss out of hand that maybe there were people who might have smirked about him because they may have seen like, “Oh yeah, you’re a weirdo.” But I don’t think it was as many people as he thought.
CB: What’s really funny about this is it made me remember the opposite side of that, which is sometimes they are out to get you. And it just reminded me of a very famous Scorpio placement which is J Edgar Hoover who had Capricorn rising and Saturn and Uranus in Scorpio, so it was the midheaven in Scorpio. And he was the head of the FBI and was involved in gathering together different people’s secrets and spying on people and sometimes blackmailing people and doing all sorts of shady behind-the-scenes stuff. It’s funny because the flip side of it is sometimes there is stuff like that out there and sometimes the Scorpio energy is almost sometimes attuned to picking that up, or sometimes are the people sort of working behind the scenes involved in those things.
SR: But that’s the challenge. The challenge, I think, is to learn to be discerning. Like I said, it’s not everyone that’s out to get you. Doesn’t mean there’s no one, it just means that you have to kind of be discerning.
CB: For sure. And that’s probably a lifelong lesson and struggle for maybe heavy Scorpio placements or energy, is learning how to be discerning and learning to find the correct balance between being sensitive to what’s happening in the environment and having that almost as like a special superpower, but on the other hand not letting that sensitivity get out of whack and lead you into weird places of paranoia and sort of almost delusion.
KT: Yeah, I think an issue that Scorpio often has is, you know, it’s fixed sign so you can kind of have a one-track mind. And it can be really hard to sort of divert from that, which reminds me of one point Austin Coppock on this show had mentioned. It related Scorpio to water pipes. Like fixed water, water going into one direction, right? Fixed in one direction. And yeah, it just makes me think about how difficult it can be to change a Scorpio’s mind– mine included– when the water is rushing through the pipes in this one direction and it’s like how are you going to divert that? So yeah, the one-track mind I find… I was raised by a Scorpio father with Sun in Mercury there, and I think with those more diurnal planets too. You know, the Sun or even Mercury more mentally oriented planets and Scorpio can have a harder time with that as well, because it’s just trying to rationalize an environment that is very dark and murky and sticky, which is what I think of Scorpio. So, yeah.
CB: Yeah, maybe a good keyword there is obsession sometimes that comes up. And that can be a good thing sometimes or can be a bad thing. Like obsession, when channeled correctly, is like having a passion for something and just being super passionate about something whether that’s a person, whether it’s a hobby, whether it’s a life goal or something like that. But other times it can also be like an obsession or something that’s maybe not necessarily healthy and that is hard to redirect once it gets headed in a certain direction, sort of like a freight train.
KT: Yeah. And I’ll just say especially for us Pluto and Scorpios that have Scorpio placements, the obsession compulsion piece just kind of gets ramped up when you add Pluto in the mix. Which is yeah, we have that whole 15 years of our generation that have that so… Or 12 years, I should say.
SR: Well, I was gonna also say I mean… I guess when are we going to talk about the elephant or the planet or the dwarf planet in the room? Because I think some measure of that word obsession, I think, is associated commonly with Pluto related to Scorpio. And not just Pluto in Scorpio, but Pluto as a putative ruler of Scorpio. Now, I don’t subscribe to using modern planets as rulers but it has become part of the lexicon of Scorpio because of that association with the modern planet Pluto. But we could explain that also in terms of fixed watery Mars as kind of the deep diver. It’s the deep diver so it’s kind of like either way you want to look at it whether it’s from Pluto or from Mars, it is some way in which you feel pulled. And that’s kind of an interesting thing; a sign that we’ve talked about so much so far with control, often can seem to lose control with feeling like something external to it is pulling it. Whether it’s, as we were talking about astrology, but it could be like, “Why were you at that girl’s house, Sam?” “I don’t know, I just felt like I had to be there.” That’s not for my life, okay? [Kirah laughs] But you know, it’s kind of this obsessive quality that may happen that I’ve heard Scorpios talk about. Especially when it relates to, you know, we were just talking about Libra. A wrong has been committed against us. We may feel compelled, obsessed about correcting dealing with that wrong. One thing that I’ve talked about on Twitter and other places as a point of irony is that I’m born at the very end of Scorpio, but my brother– my bigger older brother who’s now no longer with us– but he was born at the very beginning of Scorpio. And I saw this obsessive quality with him especially when he felt wronged, and it sometime could be very extreme, you know? I don’t know if we’re getting into personal anecdotes but that’s one particular thing I could go into in terms of where I saw an expression of that.
CB: No, that’s perfect because it brings up something that Kirah mentioned earlier and I was thinking about it, which is sometimes a tendency to take things overly personally and the tendency that Kirah mentioned, which is not letting go like being unable to let go of things. And sometimes that can extend to holding on to perceived slights even for years afterwards. I remember having a Scorpio person that I used to have light interactions with and then I stopped hearing from him much. I didn’t really think anything of it and then I found out years later that he held a grudge against me for some minor thing that I didn’t show up to an event at a conference or something that I didn’t think was that important, but it really impacted him and he had held on to it for years. And it reminded me, I thought it was really interesting and fascinating teaching the thing at the time because it I sort of understood then where that was coming from and I could see also the impulse in myself sometimes to do things like that as a universal Scorpio thing of sometimes taking things overly personally and then not letting go of it or struggling sometimes to let go of things.
SR: Yeah, it becomes stagnant water.
KT: Yeah. I mean, there’s still people that I’m at for certain things that happened in middle school, you know? [laughs]
CB: Right, from kindergarten from 20 years ago, you’re still
KT: Absolutely. Like, how dare you? I’m still mad about it. But yeah, I think… Whoa, I feel like I just lost what I was about to say from that. Sorry.
CB: That’s all right, just the notion of not letting go and of holding on to things. So retention, obsession, personalizing things becoming more personal maybe sometimes than they are, maybe because of that deeply watery nature of Scorpio which even though it has that external armor or prickliness, that it’s hiding or protecting something which ultimately is very emotionally vulnerable at its core and maybe that some of those defense mechanisms are set up in order to protect that in some way.
KT: Yeah, and I think that this kind of gets to parts of why Venus and the Moon have such a hard time in Scorpio. I always talk about how the Moon would rather… The Moon just wants to have an experience and then drop it and move on. The Moon really is looking for to be impacted and then to kind of move on. And similarly with Venus, Venus is trying to make these connections on the surface, really, like seeing what we have in common. But in Scorpio, it’s hard to move past certain things. And I think with the Moon especially having its fall in Scorpio, it just takes way too long to process in Scorpio, or as the Moon is trying to move on, I think. And in Scorpio, I always describe it as a swamp. That’s how I describe the environment of Scorpio. And it just takes so much longer to process things to move on, and I think that’s where taking things personally comes from or not being able to move on from certain things. It’s because it’s like, you know, once you get hit even a little bit, there’s sort of reverberations that just go so deep into a Scorpio’s soul. It’s like someone cuts you in line or something, and it’s really not a big deal but might trigger some incident where Tommy cut you in line in first grade and you didn’t get the piece of cake that you wanted or whatever. But I think that yeah, it just goes so deep with Scorpio and it can be hard to sort of be light and airy and just move on from things.
CB: And to be almost pleasant. Like, Venus is a very pleasant planet especially in Libra. It’s a very, you know, wanting everyone to be sort of on good terms. Or even in Taurus to a certain extent where sometimes Scorpio being that Mars-ruled sign can sometimes fixate on the darker things of like, you know, not everything is pleasant or not everything is always positive all the time. And sometimes that awareness of the darker aspects of reality may be part of the contrast.
SR: Or going toward the deeper aspects of it or truth. I remember I was raised by to Libra influenced parents. I remember I was a preacher at an early age and so I wanted to talk about things related to theology and spirit and spirituality. I remember my mom saying– or politics– and she’s like, “Why don’t you just talk about lighter things like the weather?” So I didn’t talk about the weather for 30 years with anybody. I mean, that’s prime Scorpio. It’s like, “Oh, you want me to talk about the weather? I’m never talking about the weather.”
CB: You never forgot that comment.
SR: No. But I did do something even deeper related to that. As a Mars sign, and Mars even kind of having this connection through its hot and dry nature like the Sun and then it’s quality related to Aries, I think Scorpio also has this high self-regard that it keeps deep within itself. And so I think that’s one egotistical part of it even though we don’t like to talk about our egos, right? Like, “Oh, I don’t have an ego. I’m trying to negate my ego,” but the ego is very strong. Going back to the arachnid, what’s fascinating about the scorpion is that it will sting itself to death with facing extinction. Just think about that. This creature, if it’s facing such a threat to itself, it would rather off itself and have that level of self-determination. And I think that can be reflective of when Scorpios are hurt. It’s like, “How dare you do that to me?” And so it goes into other extremes. You know, if we have a breakup, “No, I didn’t just break up with you, you died. I attended your funeral, wore black, everything.” It’s kind of where we have this intensity related to what has happened to us, this preciousness that can often come up with Scorpios.
CB: Right. So intensity or almost extremism sometimes is the tendency, especially when it comes to one-on-one connections. And again that’s probably part of the difference maybe in the transition from Libra, which is a little bit lighter social interactions with maybe many people, Scorpio’s more intense one on one interactions with individual people.
SR: Yeah, that’s a good way to define it.
KT: Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier as, you know, it’s the social Mars sign, which is weird because Mars is a very selfish or self-oriented planet, but it is social or maybe not social but relational, I should say. It’s the relational Mars sign where it’s difficult because yeah, there is the very self-oriented nature of Mars, but in Scorpio we have to deal with the other in a way that makes us deal with vulnerability and emotions and everything that is beneath the surface. I often think about with Libra it’s like we’re meeting and we’re finding our common ground, but then in Scorpio it’s like we’re holding hands on sort of diving underneath that surface together and diving into the swamp really and figuring out. I always say in the swamp you don’t know what’s yours and what’s mine, it all kind of blends together, and I think that’s where things get really complicated with Scorpio. And that’s kind of the nature of water, too, right? Things blend together and it’s really hard to tell who’s is what, and especially once you get entangled. I think that’s why we get so extreme when things need to end because it’s like, you know, it is extreme. It’s like I have to detangle you from myself or else… You know, those remnants are still gonna be there and so it’s like… Yeah, I think [crosstalk] No, no, you go. You go.
CB: Entanglement’s a really good keyword for Scorpio.
SR: Yeah. And that was going to say that, you know, this is one of the other words I remember early in my studies of astrology when reading about Scorpio, this need to merge, right? That we’re the sign that deals with full emergence and mergence with the other. Which I’ve always struggled with personally but I still wonder about, and so maybe that’s a good thing for us to talk about where we have this sense of, you know? And this is kind of the memes, you know, Scorpio wants to kind of consume you. It’s just like, “I don’t want to just have sex with you, I want to be one with you.” Have you guys found that something to think about related to Scorpio or?
KT: Yeah, absolutey.
CB: Yeah, it’s gotta be a water thing. It’s like when you put two ice cubes in a room next to each other but then you heat them up in the microwave and they melt, all of the water just merges together into one. So it’s interesting because then we see that more readily in the other signs especially like Pisces where you have this almost desire to merge universally or spiritually or something like that. With Scorpio, there’s also something there in a similar impulse to merge deeply with somebody.
KT: Yeah, definitely. I find that to be a very loud aspect of Scorpio and Scorpio in relation to others, and I think that scares a lot of people too that aren’t ready to completely merge. [laughs] We’re just like, “What do you mean? This sounds really fun. Why would you want to become one human being?” [laughs]
CB: “Why wouldn’t you want to make a blood pact with me right now even though we’ve only gone on one day so far?” Sam laughs]
KT: Yeah, what’s the problem?
CB: Yeah. Yeah, so it can be a bit much. It can be a little too much sometimes or a little bit too intense sometimes. It can come on- They can come on strong in some instances.
KT: Yeah, I think people with Venus in Scorpio especially deal with this. I think there’s this– whenever I talk to clients with Venus in Scorpio, I’m like, “You don’t want to talk at all. You don’t want to have the talking stage at all, you’re just ready to go in and go deep. Like, how do you want to split our finances?” [laughter] Yeah, I think there’s a lot of aversion to dating oftentimes with people with Venus in Scorpio because– or just a lot of Scorpio planets– because it’s like, “I don’t want to do the talking. I don’t want to do the talking stage, I don’t want to get to know someone, I want to know you fully and completely and be there already.” Or at least be able to go there to go straight there into to the more deeper things and skip the talking stuff and the pleasantries.
CB: Yeah, totally.
SR: So how do you think that if we manifest for those with Pluto in Scorpio in relation to Mars in Scorpio or Venus in Scorpio or even the Sun, we could also draw on the Moon or any Scorpio placement. But do you think that if we could talk about a generational trend, that that becomes magnified somehow? You know, this need to merge? Because I was married to someone with a Mars and Pluto in Scorpio and it was also this readiness to kind of jump right in. It’s like, I don’t care how deep the water is or I know how to swim, I’m still gonna go in.
KT: Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of my favorite keywords for Scorpio, especially Mars in Scorpio, is emotional bravery. Just having the bravery and the guts to just go in and do something that other people might be like, “Why would you? Why would you take that risk, go for that?” But I think especially when it comes to being in relationship and taking these more emotional risks, that’s something that Scorpio is more willing to do because it’s like, yeah, it’s such an extreme sign. It’s very all-or-nothing. That’s just the nature of malefics, they’re extreme. But add in Pluto and then it gets really extreme.
SR: I think that’s a really good point because I think your generation, the Pluto and Scorpio generation, has probably dealt more with certain extremes at earlier ages. You’re the generation that probably as you were just going to your pubescence was like, “Be careful having sex, you can get AIDS. You can do this.” You guys have gone through a worldwide recession at an early age. And then the pandemic at a relatively early age.
KT: You forgot about 9/11.
SR: And 9/11, right? And I know people– because I’m not a boomer, I’m a Gen Xer– but I know some people take umbrage when I mention these things. Like, “Well, we went through it too.” Well, you didn’t go through it at 12 or 20. We didn’t go through the same things. So I think that’s an interesting point to make that you’re making, Kirah. Thank you.
CB: Yeah, and Kirah and I have talked about that more in Episode 275 where we talked about astrological generations and the Saturn signs of millennials. So we had some of that discussion, some of this about depth. And Scorpio, this discussion we’re having about Scorpio wanting to go really deep with things, it makes me remember a funny anecdote that my friend Micah mentioned where they said sometimes something they like to do just to annoy Scorpios is to look at them and say– when they’re explaining something and say, “It’s not that serious,” or “It’s not that deep.” [Sam laughs]
KT: Micah would. [laughs]
CB: Yeah. And that’s such a perfect because I sort of felt my eye twinge just hearing that.
SR: [laughing] It’s true, I just had that knee-jerk reaction myself, that would piss me off.
CB: Yeah, like what do you mean? But that’s actually what’s funny. And going back to the whole, you know, we’ve talked about how Scorpio going so serious or going so deep as part of the corrective function as a sign that falls after Libra. But then what’s funny, is when you then go to the next sign after Scorpio into Sagittarius, that’s part of the corrective function of Sagittarius is lightening up a bit. You know, fun, humor, games, and a much more optimistic or jovial quality is what you find in Sagittarius as part of the corrective function to Scorpio.
KT: Absolutely. Yeah, I always say it’s like Scorpio you’re in the swamp or you’re in the cave, and then Sagittarius it’s like you see the light at the end of the tunnel. And you can kind of lift yourself out of that dark place and have some perspective on it and maybe come to some philosophical ideals around what you went through or what you struggled through in Scorpio. But yeah, Scorpio is definitely the dark, and Sag you get more of the light for sure.
SR: Or find a humor. Because I’m thinking about Jupiter and Scorpio is to find the humor or the light through the dark tunnel. And that makes me think of Lucille Ball who had a Jupiter in Scorpio. When you look at the I Love Lucy episodes– I haven’t seen any of the recent biopic so I can’t comment on those and I don’t know how factual they are anyway. But what I do know from reading about her life and looking at her comedy, she was a pretty serious person who knew how to turn on her comedic sensibility. And I think it was looking at pretty… There’s a statement I heard once from a playwright that all humor is based on pain. I don’t know if that’s completely true, but it definitely seems when you look at something like I Love Lucy or even general comedy, but particularly her work, this is where we can recognize that some of the scenarios that we see in I Love Lucy are definitely dark or dealing with the darker aspects of it. But that gave her courage in very powerful ways. And one thing I have to say as a Star Trek lover, one way in which that courage, that bravery that you’re talking about willing to go in places where others wouldn’t go, is that Lucille Ball was one of the producers, the initial producers. Her studio, Desilu, was a producer for Star Trek. Because the company was kind of like, I think NBC was kind of like, “Yeah, let’s this 86 it. It’s not going to work.” And she’s like, “No, no, no, let’s do it.” So we have her to thank for Star Trek.
KT: Wow, that’s amazing.
CB: Yeah, that’s pretty cool. Unrelated kind of different direction, one of the funny things Scorpios are known for and I was curious if you two had an opinion on this is Scorpio tattoos. I don’t think there’s any other sign of the zodiac that is more- Do you have a Scorpio tattoo, Sam?
SR: I do.
KT: Nice. Yeah.
CB: I don’t think there’s any other sign of the Zodiac that gets their sign, especially their animal symbol, tattooed on them as often as Scorpios do. Do either of you know
KT: Leo might challenge us a little bit, but
CB: That’s fair. That’s fair.
KT: Yeah, I think Scorpio definitely is up there.
SR: I have seen Virgo glyph tattoos more and more, but I definitely think Scorpio is up there. And I don’t think just for tattoos, I think paraphernalia. Period.
KT: I mean, I’m literally wearing a Scorpio necklace. [laughs]
SR: Right. Or Scorpion earrings or rings or shirts or whatever. I think in terms of paraphernalia, I think we hands down have more than any other sign.
KT: I think a big part of that is because– I don’t know what it is about Scorpio and astrology but Scorpios really tend to really connect with the stereotypes. And I think a lot of people do but there’s something about Scorpios in astrology and coming into astrology and feeling so seen, maybe because it is such a dark sign that typically feels pretty misunderstood or not fully seen. And I think the fact that astrology… Scorpios really tend to love astrology in my opinion. Yeah, that feeling seen and witnessed and who we are. I certainly got into astrology when I was very young and I remember when I was I think around 11 or 12 I made… We had to make coat of arms and we were learning about medieval times in school. And my coat of arms was red and black and it had a huge scorpion and a Scorpio glyph on it. And that was six or seven, I think sixth grade. Yeah. Yeah, there’s just this connection I think that Scorpios in particular have to astrology, even surface-level stereotypes. We wear our Scorpio stuff as badges of honor.
SR: I also find that this sign probably has more signifiers related to it than any other sign. In the time that I’ve been studying astrology, which probably is now over 30 years or more, 31-32 years, I’ve come across the scorpion, the eagle, the phoenix, the wolf, the snake, the dove,
SR: Maybe spider. But just that is seven. I don’t know any other sign that has as many animals or creatures associated with it.
KT: That’s true.
CB: Yeah, Cancer has the goofy lobster versus crab mixup but that’s more of an accident linguistic issue. That’s a good point. I mean, should we address that at all? I know there’s some books that say that there’s like different levels of Scorpio or different types of Scorpio or other things like that. I’ve always wondered how true that is or if there’s anything to some of those metaphors.
SR: I think about that a lot. And where I’ve landed with it and I can’t wait to hear what Kirah has to say about it, I think there are levels but I think those levels are a lot more malleable and impermeable or impermanent than we might give credit for it. And that can just speak to that from my life but also observing other Scorpios, so the common-
CB: You’re not just like a Pokemon that evolves into a different type of supervillain, at some point you stay there.
SR: Right, exactly. The common break down is that are you a scorpion, an eagle, or a Phoenix, right? And then there’s this idea that you’re going to aspire to become a phoenix scorpion. I think some days I wake up and I’m an eagle, some days I’m a phoenix, and then other times I’m like [*] Scorpion. Right? That’s kind of why I think it happens.
KT: I think it’s a similar… For me, I view it similarly as evolved and unevolved signs or things like that where people think you’re an unevolved Scorpio because you whatever, [laughs] because you’re jealous about that. You know, whatever stereotype. So I think that yeah, just like Sam said, you can be I think oftentimes the little scorpion on the floor. But there are moments of being the phoenix rising from the ashes. And I think that is definitely part of a lot of Scorpios stories at times.
CB: That’s a good point. Yeah, and maybe some of that stuff. Because I don’t think some of those other ideas like eagle or phoenix probably don’t go back more than a century or so, I’m guessing, and maybe it was from that period with all the Theosophists where there was this obsession with the idea of evolution as this linear spiritual development thing rather than-
SR: Well, I don’t know about the eagle is new to Scorpion because one of the things is that the idea of the four animals, the holy animals related to the zodiac even goes back centuries related to the Gospels, which also work in tandem in the Bible, which people have come to associate with the signs of the zodiac; so the Taurus, the bull. So, the four animals that are the fixed signs have now become aligned with the fixed signs, but I don’t think that starts with the Theosophists. I think that might be older, I don’t think it’s part of the Hellenistic tradition, per se, but I think it’s something that does develop where we could see probably in the medieval era from Christians. And it has its roots with the Lamassu with Babylonia. So the Lamassu was said to be composed of a Taurus, the eagle, a human being, and a lion. It relates to those four fixed creatures. So it might be related to the four fixed signs and I think that became an extension related to the four Gospels, but that probably was before the 20th or even the late 19th century.
CB: Yeah, I don’t know, I haven’t traced it back. One of the things with all of the attempts to connect things of astrology in the Bible is it has to do with a lot of inferences about sort of reading into whether this is what they thought or, and whether that’s correct inference or whether it’s sort of reading something into something that wasn’t there. I don’t really know. But certainly over the past century there’s become more common motifs of the idea of Scorpios evolving into an eagle or a phoenix or what have you. Maybe that ties back interestingly in a weird indirect way to the Scorpio tattoo things. There’s almost something there where a lot of Scorpios identify sometimes with that imagery of the thin phoenix of something that dies and goes through this transformation and then rises from its own ashes through this recurring process of death and rebirth and going through different stages in life where one feels like they have died emotionally or through loss or grief or what have you, but then eventually sort of pull themselves through that or come back and come through the other side out of the sort of dark period. Maybe that’s one of the reasons why the Scorpio is also sometimes associated with some of that imagery or wear it like a badge sometimes because it’s one of the implicit things that they’re acknowledging in some way.
SR: Well, that’s why I got it. My tattoo, which I don’t know how clear can be seen, actually has the scorpion coming out from within me. And then the phoenix, which you probably can only see the wing of the phoenix, and I made the tail is kind of like the eye and beak of the bird ascending into me. That’s the idea I have kind of going toward my mind, you know not just that I am a Scorpion or born under the sign of Scorpio, but more so as being committed to my evolution. I got this early on in… I did in 2002 and it was kind of inspired by a Llewellyn calendar. It was this image of the phoenix rising and kind of coming toward that rebirth, so I definitely can speak to that.
KT: Yeah, there’s definitely the transformation theme is huge when it comes to Scorpio and I think that comes up a lot. People bring that up a lot. And I think for me, I feel like I’m related to that a lot especially when I was younger. And how I think about it is, again with the processing time with Scorpio, I think it just takes planets in Scorpio a really long time to… Yeah, it’s a process to move through something. And so it is sort of like going into the cave or going to this dark place often and metaphorically dying. And having to move through this big emotional moment and having to fully move through it in order to come back out kind of speaks to that. I think yeah, Scorpios have a hard time sort of stopping, pausing a process of grieving or what have you. I think it’s like we really need to let Scorpio move through it. I always say like, “Put the Scorpio in their cave. Let them be in the cave for however long they need to be in their cave for. They’ll come out eventually.” That’s sort of that regeneration process.
CB: Yeah, that makes me think of concepts of the focus on darkness on that which is dark or more morbid even to some people like the focus on things that can be off-putting or dark in some way, but also going through that process of going through a dark night of the soul type period. And maybe that’s part of why the Moon has its fall there as well.
KT: Yeah. Yeah, the dark night of the soul for sure. I’m thinking about all of us moving through the south node transits over the past year and these eclipses. Yeah, there’s a lot of that happening.
CB: Yeah, it’s been intense the past couple of weeks. We had that Scorpio eclipse a couple weeks ago at the end of October here. We’re recording this episode, I forgot to say the data, but on Tuesday November 8th 2022 and we started, I don’t know, like 1:30 or so P.M here in Denver, Colorado with late Aquarius rising. But today’s the day of the Taurus lunar eclipse with the Sun and Mercury exactly opposite to that conjoining in Scorpio.
SR: I think at this particular point, Chris, you’ve also– well, maybe you haven’t had the south node on your Sun yet. How was it for you, Kirah, with the south node going over your Sun? If you care to share. You may not care to share.
KT: No. No. For me, I have Sun-Mars-Pluto conjunction and I have Mars in between my Sun and Pluto and the south node was actually parked on my Mars at 22 degrees for about five months this year. [laughs] So that hit me a lot harder than the south node moving over my Sun, it just sitting on my Mars is really tough for me. But the way I think about transits was a little bit less about the Sun and more about it being the ruler of my sixth house. But I think in general, yeah, there’s this draining of vitality, for sure. But also I think about Scorpio Suns a lot and how we have this knowing. I think there’s a little bit of– maybe not we know better, but I think there’s this ‘we know.’ Like ‘I know.’ I don’t know how else to say it besides a knowing that I think a lot of us have, and I think the south node moving through maybe it’s ninth house Sun type of thing too, but the south node moving through has kind of been like you don’t know everything. Like, release all the shit that you think you know because there’s a lot you don’t know. Yeah, that’s kind of been a big part of it for me.
SR: For me, it was interesting. I thought it would be some drainings related to my vitality so I was concerned about that because I’m a 29-degree 45-minute Sun. So as soon as the nodes shifted, it was pretty much close to being on my Sun. And that was in January. I did have some fatigue but it wasn’t actually as strong as I thought it would be. How it manifested for me is that I was hacked and I lost my Instagram account. So, some aspect related to my identity. Which kind of brings forth some dimension of what Scorpio might be about. And that was really powerful for me because I lost, you know, maybe even six months before or seven months before, I lost my Twitter account of thirteen years. Through my own fault. But I lost, it wasn’t Elon Musk. But I lost it so I was like, “I’m not going to lose this Instagram account.” So I had to fight for it. I think that’s some other aspect of Scorpio, like, there’s loss but then you have to come back from it. And I also even used magic, which I haven’t done in 12 years or nearly 12 years. I had to use magic in order to get it and pretty much within I would say 72 hours of losing my account, I was fortunate to get it back. I even called the hacker and cussed him out because he left his number.
CB: That was hilarious. You sent me the text of that and you’re the only person I know who got their Instagram account hacked and then you were taunting your hacker and messing with them.
KT: Oh yes, I’ve been taunting. I have a lot of screenshots of me taunting hackers as well. [laughs] Back when I thought that would matter, but now we kind of… Yeah, nothing really works nowadays.
SR: Yeah, I did send it to you. I forgot that. Yeah, I’d sent it to you. Yeah, I cussed him out.
KT: As you should.
CB: All right, where are we at? At some point we should transition to doing some comparisons with some of the other signs. But I was thinking maybe we could take– we’re about an hour and 20 minutes into this episode so it might be a good time to take a little break.
CB: Okay. So let’s leave everything recording, don’t stop or change anything. Just leave it going and then let’s come back in, I don’t know, three minutes or five minutes or so.
CB: Okay, cool. All right. Let’s go ahead and resume from here. Usually around this point, I like to transition into contrasting the sign of Scorpio as we’re talking about now with some of the other signs of the zodiac, just in order to get a better idea of what Scorpio represents by contrasting it with other things that it’s not, either in order to see similarities or sometimes differences. We’ve talked quite a bit already about the comparison between Libra and Scorpio, and we’ve talked a little bit about the comparison between Scorpio and Sagittarius. Have we talked much about the opposing– I know we’ve talked a little bit about it but maybe really quickly we could run through some contrast between Taurus and Scorpio if the two of you feel like it.
SR: Yeah, we also talked about Aries in contrast as the other sign of Mars.
CB: I feel pretty good about that one. Let me see some of the notes. So, Camille had written down some contrasts between Taurus and Scorpio, some of which I thought were good. A few of them were Taurus as simplicity, and actually I have a graphic here. So Taurus as simplicity and Scorpio as complexity. This one I really like is Taurus as material security versus Scorpio as emotional security. Taurus as comfort versus Scorpio as discomfort. Taurus as physical realities versus Scorpio psychological realities. Taurus saying it is what it is, versus Scorpio saying make it make sense.
SR: I like that.
CB: Yeah, I really like that one too. Do you want to pause on that one for a moment?
SR: Well, yeah, I think that really does get it. I mean, Scorpio as a sign of Mars is going to really have a certain level of investment and direction and energy and passion toward something. Whereas Taurus is practical, thinking like it is what it is, that’s what’s going to be.
KT: Yeah, I feel like Scorpio is very probing. Or Mars, at least, wants to probe and understand and get to the bottom of things. And so yeah, make it make sense. Literally that makes me think of my early obsession into astrology is like, “I need to understand how this works. I need to understand how this makes sense.”
CB: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. It’s not just enough to know what something is but needing to understand why and what the underlying motivation is. Otherwise there’s an internal sense of discontentment or even uneasiness with going along with the program unless you really understand why you’re doing that or what the motivation is underlying everything.
SR: Yeah, that’s what led me deeper into astrology, not just in terms of where I started. But there was a point I remember well after 10 years of studying astrology where I wanted to know more why things were as they were. So for instance, why is Mars exalted in Capricorn? Why is it falling in Aries for Saturn? Where did these rulerships come from? Was it some measure of a study? You know, and that kind of led me more to traditional astrology.
KT: I was literally about to say yeah, that’s probably why I was so into traditional astrology too. It’s wanting to know the why underneath it all.
CB: Yeah, for sure. Although it’s funny because sometimes, I’ve noticed that some people that tendency can be used against them. And in modern times we’re seeing a lot of this where people are convinced that things are more complicated than they are, that there’s people behind the scenes controlling things. And this is, you know, it leads to different conspiratorial thinking or to different people trying to sort of mislead people politically or into different political things by giving an impression or appealing to that underlying sense of wanting to know the inner workings of things because the surface level…
SR: Excuse me, sorry.
CB: …the surface level or sometimes reality of things. That sometimes things are much more chaotic or that nobody’s in charge of things, that nobody’s really driving the bus sometimes when it comes to world events is so much more unsettling in some ways than the idea that there’s somebody there pulling the strings.
SR: Which goes back to what we were talking about some of the conspiratorial thinking that can see Scorpio in that pursuit to make it make sense, we have to kind of assign an agent to it in our urgency to things.
KT: My Scorpio dad’s job was as an agent, so that made me laugh, but it reminds me of the phrase which is very common now which is touch grass as the antidote to the Scorpio paranoia is that Taurus, just get back into your physical world and out of this mental emotional space of overthinking things or looking for the bad guy. It’s like, go out and touch grass. Get back into your body, essentially, would be the antidote to that and come back to reality or come back to Earth. Right? Reground yourself, which would be the Taurus polarity of that.
SR: Yeah. I think both Taurus and Scorpio are concerned with actualization. We could say that Scorpio may be more geared towards self-actualization beyond the body, whereas Taurus is looking at actualization through the body and through the sensuality of it.
CB: Yeah, sometimes the senses, that was something we talked about a lot in a Taurus episode, but just embracing the things that are good about the sense realm like taste and smell and touch or color or other things like that. And yeah, a lot of those things versus there’s almost more of a psychological take in the idea of depth psychology, or sometimes Scorpios being interested in psychology as an underlying motivating factor in people’s actions is kind of an interesting thing. I think Freud had Scorpio rising, didn’t he?
SR: I believe so. Yeah. And I think it’s wanting to understand people’s motivations, I think that probably been the longest-standing aspect of my interests. You know, I once wanted to be a criminologist and I still study crime. But I don’t study crime like whoa, because I want to know how to do it. I want to understand sometimes the thinking behind it. For me, I mean– I’ll divulge a personal issue– many crimes, especially murder committed, I find them horrifying. At the same time I’m like, “But why did you do it?” It’s kind of like what is happening objectively or what we can observe in your thinking and movement through it. That’s kind of one other thing that I know. In fact, one of the archetypes or stereotypes related to Scorpios is the detective, kind of wanting to unlock or see the mysteries or understand the mysteries behind things.
CB: Yeah, loves a good mystery and the unraveling or the getting to the bottom of that mystery. All right, so that’s good. Taurus as simplicity versus Scorpio as complexity is kind of interesting as well, thinking about Scorpio is a complex sign.
SR: But I think that simplicity is more like Occam’s razor. It’s not like there’s no real complexity to Taurus, but kind of more going to what is the likely practical simplest solution or idea related to something? It makes me think of David Hume, Taurus philosopher and one of the earliest recorded in Western civilization or most recent Western civilization atheist, who kind of said like, “Well, there probably isn’t any god. And here’s why.” Or a clockmaker. You know, the big thing that was kind of this idea during the 17th and 18th century was a clockwork universe because, like, “Well, maybe there’s no clockmaker, maybe there’s just been the clock.” And so I think Taureans are often led to… No, it’s kind of more so this thing from Sherlock Holmes, “When you ruled out the impossible, no matter how improbable, whatever remains is the truth.” And I think that might be something that really appeals to Taureans. It’s kind of like, what’s the residue left at the bottom?
CB: Yeah, that’s a really great point I like that you invoked Occam’s razor there and just the notion that the simplest explanation is often the most likely explanation for something is a very Taurus thing, as opposed to Scorpio where the tendency is to try to go to the more complex obscure explanation for things.
SR: Yeah, cuz I don’t like this stereotype that goes for Taurus as like they’re simpletons, you know, basically akin to hobbits, just want to be on the shire and just live the simple life. So when I read Simplicity, it doesn’t mean that’s what Camille meant. But sometimes that is the interpretation that people often have of Taureans.
KT: Boring, yeah.
SR: Or boring.
CB: Wait, if Taurus are hobbits in this analogy, does that mean Scorpios are like Gollum or something?
SR: Or orcs. [laughs] Yeah. Actually, I don’t know. That might be that.
CB: Well, yeah, the obsession of something of like the ring and something else versus… And something they got twisted because Gollum was a hobbit but his obsession with a thing led him to kill his friend and then he twisted his body and mind and everything else through the obsession of something.
CB: All right. Well, we spend a lot of time on that [crosstalk] Yeah, we’ll have to bring back like Resident, Lord of the Rings. Actually we have two of those. It’s Joe and then also my other Sagittarius. [crosstalk]
KT: I know nothing, so that’s why I’m certainly smiling.
CB: Yeah, just smile and nod when the Lord of the Rings nerds are talking. That’s usually a good idea. All right, so let’s go-
KT: Can I just say one thing about Scorpio Taurus? I always have a hard time talking about the polarity because I find them to be so similar. I find them to be so so similar and I think out of all the polarity combos in the zodiac, I truly think that Scorpio and Taurus are the most magnetic. And I think part of that is because they’re both nocturnal or feminine signs, they’re both connected to the material in a way. And I just find those two signs in people… Like Scorpio as far as couples-
SR: Mars-Venus, yeah.
KT: Yeah, it’s a Mars-Venus and it’s the physical Mars-Venus. And so I just had to say that like you’ll see Scorpio-Taurus couples that are together forever, essentially, and they just don’t separate. And then they have Taurus-Scorpio children and then… It’s just such a deep potent combination and yeah, I just wanted to say that.
SR: I’m glad you said that. I think Taureans just have better PR. I think they’re really, you know, they can be very secretive. I know many Taurean-influenced people who are even more secretive in a real way than Scorpios. But it’s always what’s associated with Scorpio. Taureans, you know, it’s like, “Yeah, we know…
KT: Just as possessive, just as jealous, just as stubborn, and [crosstalk]
SR: And also we don’t know anything about what’s going on behind the scenes with them, these particular things relational. What’s fascinating to me is Taurean-influenced people often are loved in a certain way, maybe even held in some measure of esteem, while there’s sometimes this aversion or distrust often associated with Scorpios. It’s like, “Well, you’re Scorpio? Oh, you’re a Taurus! Oh, that’s a nice…” It’s interesting. I think of Bill Clinton’s Moon in Taurus as an example of that, or is he a Taurus rising?
CB: He’s a Libra rising.
KT: Libra rising, yeah.
SR: Libra rising with the Moon in Taurus? Yeah. I think his Moon in Taurus… People still have this high regard despite all the things that have been associated with Bill Clinton for him. So there’s something-
KT: The charming, cozy, yeah.
SR: I know this is not, you know, I’m not lionizing Hitler but Hitler’s a Taurus, right? Libra rising as well. Also, immensely charming. People don’t think about that but if you do any research or look anything in relation to his life, he could be an immensely charming and persuasive person.
KT: We can maybe argue that Biden’s Taurus Moons saves him from his Scorpio stuff too coz of the charm. Yeah, his exalted chart ruler as well. But, yeah.
CB: Yeah. And with Taurus and Scorpio, one of the ways that they connect and get along really well together, I think, is that both as their connection as both fixed signs find a lot of comfort with that which is familiar. And once they found that thing they like, they can both just do that thing over and over again almost in a way that might come off as an obsession or to the exclusion of trying different things, but it’s just being able to- There’s something to appreciate about being able to embrace something fully that you like, and knowing what you like and having those very clearly defined tastes and then sticking with what you like.
SR: Yeah, the consistency.
KT: Yeah, it’s like why fix what’s not broke type of thing. What is that phrase? Mercury in Sag is showing.
SR: Don’t don’t fix what’s not broken.
KT: Yeah, something like that.
CB: And I’ve also heard explained by Taurus the way that made sense or resonated to me of with foods or things like that, why experiment with something… You know, if you have a choice between getting that meal that you know you really like versus trying something new. Because if you try something new you could end up with something that you don’t like at all and that you would have preferred just eating that one thing that you already know that you like, and there’s some connection and similarity there between Taurus and Scorpio in that way.
SR: Yeah. I agree.
CB: All right, so that’s pretty good. Let’s talk about the other fixed signs at this point that we haven’t talked about, which are Leo and then also Aquarius. So we’ve talked a little bit about Scorpio and Leo at this point, what are some of the other points that might be good that come to mind when you think of those two signs and some of their similarities or differences?
KT: Well, I think about how Leo, you know, we have the domiciled Sun, the Sun at its brightest and fullest and best. Versus Scorpio and it’s like the declining Sun or the Sun that’s losing light or has lost quite a bit of light at this point. And I think the overcoming nature of Leo always comes to mind to me, like how Leo overcome Scorpio in terms of, you know, however you want to talk about it. And yeah, just how the Leo personality or the solar aspects of Leo, how brightly Leo shines can almost be too much for Scorpio a lot of the time. Whereas I think Scorpio is again more interested in what’s in the shadows, what’s underneath all of that, and I think the blinding light of Leo can be too much sometimes for Scorpio. And I think…
CB: Flashiness is sort of your word?
KT: Yeah, the flashiness. Yeah, exactly. But there’s still something with fixed signs, I think all the fixed signs just love each other honestly. Even the squares in oppositions, I think there’s… What Leo and Scorpio can find consistency in is again the loyalty, the need for loyalty, and utter inconsistency from another that’s where they come together often. Also just being badasses, there’s something… Yeah, the ego piece. I think that Scorpio can really appreciate the confidence that a Leo has, because I think Mars and the Sun share that, you know, the self-centeredness honestly. Not a bad way, I think selfishness is not necessarily a bad thing, but yeah, I think the Sun and Mars share that and I think that Leo and Scorpio can appreciate that in each other.
SR: Yeah, and I think… Sorry, Chris, go on.
CB: I was just gonna say just the sheer ability to put the center on oneself and one’s ego in some way, and maybe Scorpio admires–and that what’s different about it is the Sun as a masculine or diurnal sign its ability to just shine and put itself out there, as opposed to Scorpio not necessarily wanting to make itself known or shine as much necessarily but to take a more, I don’t want to say passive role, but to shine internally in some way.
SR: Yeah. And because it’s the Sun’s domicile, it’s effortless. There’s this is effusiveness of brilliance that can come from Leo. And not just in terms of intellectual brilliance, but there’s something, that je ne sais quoi, that something that kind of comes through that is still attractive for the Scorpio influence person. I think that’s also something to couple with. You know, Scorpio-Leo is also kind of the power couple whether we’re talking about that as an actual relationship or kind of a duality where they both jointly have a sense of power. Whereas Scorpio might be the power behind the throne, Leo is more the throne.
KT: Bill and Hillary. Yeah, it’s literally Bill and Hillary. That’s kind of what I was getting to as well, the power couple and how the Leo can kind of take the spotlight for the Scorpio. It can kind of find out what’s happening behind the scenes. Yeah.
CB: Yeah, cuz she was famously… He had a Leo stellium and she has a Scorpio stellium.
SR: Yeah, and I think they manifest that. I think it’s Hillary who made Bill in many ways possible. And the weakness of Leo related to Scorpio is that Leo doesn’t seem to know how to have its shine work for others. This is something that’s a consistent struggle for Bill Clinton as one example. The other one is Barack Obama. Barack Obama hasn’t successfully been able to lend his light to his party. And when I say to his party, in terms of endorsement and stamping, it doesn’t always translate for the people he goes for.
CB: Yeah, I think one of the keywords that we’re picking up here is privacy with Scorpio versus publicness with Leo. And that seems like a strong contrast and both a basic tension between those two signs, but also a way in which that tension might complement the other if they’re able to find some sort of balance through that square.
SR: Yeah. Where the Sun can lend its energy toward Mars and Mars can lend its might without resentment, especially because it’s water. Like I said, the Sun is at home, Mars is also at home. But it becomes a different dynamic in terms of the hot and dry planets coming together.
CB: Yeah. All right. So that’s Scorpio and Leo. The other one we haven’t touched on at all is Scorpio versus Aquarius. And one of the things, so Aquarius is a fixed air sign, and one of the things Camille wrote down which I thought was really good was mental fixity, holding on to mindsets, ideals, ideas, and visions that can be shared with the community. I think those are good crossovers between Scorpio and Aquarius or contrast. [crosstalk] Go ahead, I see both of you smiling.
KT: Yeah, here we bring in the two malefics, Mars and Saturn, in their preferred domiciles too. And I have both malefics in these signs as well. So I think about the square quite a bit and how… Yeah, with Mars and Scorpio we’re talking about fixed water sign, so depth, really, and really wanting to get to the bottom of things like we’ve been talking about. But with Aquarius, an air sign, I automatically picture Saturn up there in the clouds and being detached in a big way. And Scorpio is anything but detached, it’s like so deeply attached to things. And so I think that’s one of the primary differences we get with Scorpio and Aquarius is like being immersed in something like in water versus being completely– I shouldn’t say completely removed, but being removed enough so that you’re looking at things from a perspective, from a bird’s eye view, as opposed to being in it and enveloped in it like Scorpio. That’s always an issue I find with Aquarius and Aquarius placements in that square, it’s like I’m in it and you’re over there viewing it, viewing me be in it. You know?
SR: I’ll definitely weigh in but as a double Aquarius-influenced person, Chris, what’s your dynamic or thought about it? About Aquarius and Scorpio.
CB: I think the similarity between the two is both being fixed signs. Aquarius, there can be rigidity as a crossover keyword between the two of them. That makes a lot of sense because Scorpio will grab onto something and won’t let go as a fixed sign and then Aquarius, especially intellectually as a Saturn-ruled sign, will grab on to something intellectually and then will be very unwilling to let go of that as an intellectual position. Although it’s interesting that Aquarius is approaching it more intellectually where Scorpio is approaching it more emotionally at its core, but both share that process, that similarity of not wanting to let go of something or having a tension with that. I guess part of the disconnect with Aquarius is that there’s more of a coolness and more of an emotional detachment with Aquarius, which I think is difficult for Scorpio because it’s much more emotionally invested in everything it does.
SR: Yeah, I can resonate with what the both of you are saying. I have said when I was younger– and I’m going to put this as younger and I mean 30 years ago– I remember discovering as I was learning more astrology and of course learning it more on the Sun sign level, I felt like Aquarians really believed in truth with a capital T. And I remember one of the oddest conversations I’ve ever had generally with a person– I won’t say ever but me being a little dramatic, Moon in Leo– but I had with an Aquarius is I used to do a traveling theater show. And eight o’clock in the morning about to perform in front of some kids we got into this deep conversation about truth with another actor who was an aquarium or is an aquarium. And I said, “Well, truth is a whore and I fuck her on occasion.” And she lost it. She got so upset. I mean, almost frothing at the mouth, “Truth is real! Truth is not a whore! Blah blah blah,” and I was like, “This is fascinating. You really believe in truth.” So I started poking at other Aquarians, not saying the same thing, but I discovered many of them really believed in this idea, this loftiness related to truth.
So I think what I saw in my scorpionic self and then saw it subsequently in others in relation to that ideal self related to Aquarius, is that scorpions often battle cynicism or the relativism of truth other than emotional truth or visceral truth, compared to something that’s more rarefied and intellectual and open. The other thing I have found about Aquarians is that they tend to want to think like you said, bird’s eye view, but I think on the ground that looks more like more infinite diversity and infinite combinations, more different possibilities of things where Scorpio is like, “Well, I want to focus on one thing, I want to go for that.” So I think that’s another challenging aspect that can happen in that dynamic.
KT: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But yeah, when you have the two malefics too, both deal with extremes and I think both deal with being outside of the norm in some way because of those extremes. And yeah, maybe Scorpio being more attracted to what lies underneath and therefore the more darker mysterious things in life. I think Aquarius is also similarly attracted to different things but it’s more about yeah, what lies on the margins? What are these things that sort of aren’t being paid attention to in the center? And yeah, both have a lot of… Both are often othered in some way or placed in these other categories and can find a lot of camaraderie in that.
CB: It’s really a good point, and the connection with both malefics. There’s some sort of real contrast between Taurus and Leo as a team almost representing that which is bright and beautiful and vibrant and shines, versus Scorpio and Aquarius ruled by the two malefics Mars and Saturn and focusing more on that which is dark or sometimes morbid or gothic, or more broadly, sometimes that can result in a pessimism or being able to see the shortcomings or the weaknesses of something.
SR: Yeah, that’s well said.
CB: I think it’s something that Scorpio and Aquarius share a lot in common.
SR: Yeah, and that’s also true by antiscia. Scorpio is the antiscia point to Aquarius and Taurus is the antiscia point to Leo and vice versa.
CB: Yeah, because that’s a Saturn thing that comes through the Saturn connection of being able to see the errors, the weaknesses, or the faults in something. And yeah, Scorpio also can see the weaknesses or the soft spots or the holes in the armor where an opponent has a weakness that could be used to exploit or destroy them or what have you.
SR: Yeah. Whereas the Sun and Venus have a complementarity and actually a high regard for beauty.
CB: Yeah. Although one of the things I should mention is that the awareness of the faults in other people or the weaknesses that Scorpio and Aquarius share in common, one of the less known things is that comes also along with it with an intense awareness of their own weaknesses or faults or shortcomings and a tendency to focus on those. So it’s not just projected outwards, but also inwards.
SR: And that goes to the inner Jihad that we opened up with for Scorpio, particularly, where they become keenly aware of their own faults. Maybe too much so.
KT: Yeah, that’s making me self-conscious thinking about it. [laughter] Like, way too aware. Yeah.
CB: All right. Well, I think that’s good for the modalities. Why don’t we move on to the triplicity comparison? We’ve touched on this a little bit in the past but just the connection between Scorpio and the other two water signs, which are Cancer and Pisces. What do you two think about those signs?
KT: What immediately comes to mind for me is again how the benefics, like those other two signs, are a lot more than Scorpio. [Sam laughs] And how nothing exalts in Scorpio. We only find our Mars, you know, and Mars does extremely well in Scorpio. But yeah, as opposed to Jupiter exalting in Cancer and domicile in Pisces, and Venus exalting in Pisces and, you know, their simplicity in Cancer of course. And the Moon, of course, rolling Cancer. And so to me Scorpio really stands out as the more volatile environment out of the triplicity. I’ll just start with that. I’ll see where you want to go with that, Sam.
SR: I think that’s a very good point, I never thought about it that way. I think even as a Pisces rising, what I think… You know, as a sign of Jupiter for Pisces, it’s going to be more interested also as a water sign exploring the worlds within so there’s a lot of, like you said, volatility. But always kind of thinking in terms of coming to a broader vista rather than the narrowness that happens with water–with Scorpio as water, like the pipes that you alluded to with Austin’s idea or metaphor. But I think of lakes, oceans related to Pisces. And Cancer is always looking for the safe harbor as a sign of the Moon. It also, like you mentioned, exalts Jupiter. So I think it’s kind of finding the safe place where Scorpio is decidedly not, or willing to kind of find, you know… It’s willing to find safety in crisis, whereas that’s not necessarily the impulse for Cancer for sure in that sense. Pisces deals with the volatility despite itself, not because it’s seeking it out.
CB: That’s a good point about Cancer. It’s very nurturing and there’s a tendency towards things of comfort and familiarity and building bonds, Camille writes, which reinforce safety and that there’s kind of similarity there with Taurus, which is the sign of the exultation of the Moon. Whereas Scorpio, you get this defensiveness and one of the keywords that Camille used was emotional warfare or psychological warfare, and seeking that as a sort of protection or a defence against emotional or potential emotional threats. Which is kind of an interesting way to think about it, that there’s a similar impulse towards emotional security but one of them is through almost nurturing or creating a safe environment, just creating the environment unto itself, versus doing it in a protective or almost defensive sense with Mars and Scorpio.
KT: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
SR: Even though there’s these differences that we’re highlighting, I think there’s more of a focus usually for those who are highly influenced by these water signs in comfort and connection with each other, though. I find that, you know, to have a deeper connection with someone, I find and I’ve observed this in others, they have to have some measure of water present in their chart. And I think that’s something that often influences the water-influenced person belonging to the water tribe. It’s really interesting even thinking about the podcast The Water Trio, right? It’s Kelly, Alicia Yusuf and Cassandra Tyndall. They came together on this since water- Not to say that there hasn’t been a fire trio or anything like that, but water signs seem to seek out each other and have this connection like how I bonded with Chris, oh God, 17/18 years ago? And we’ve stayed together even though sometimes it gets tempestuous between us. I think there’s still this rooted understanding, a tacit, maybe even slightly inexplicable understanding that one has in terms of water.
CB: Yeah, to build or forge connections through mutual bonds of trust. And yeah, that’s something that can transcend or help to make things last longer than they otherwise might.
SR: Right. Even when there’s an intellectual disagreement among water, there still can be this place where I feel you. Right? And we might even say that I feel you.
CB: That’s good.
KT: Yeah, I feel like with other water signs there’s this degree of emotional safety that I feel where, for some reason I tend to date people with no water in their charts, that’s happened to me a couple of times. And it’s always very stark in that there isn’t that feeling of I’m safe to cry in front of you, right? And it’s not like they’ve done anything to make me feel unsafe, it’s just that there isn’t that… I know I’m not going to be seen in that way or felt in that way. Whereas I meet up with a friend who’s triple Pisces and immediately it’s like pouring two cups of water into a bowl. You can fall into each other, you can just melt into each other in a way that is so needed and so nourishing and very boundless. Which goes into that issue of water signs getting together often is that there tends to be a true lack of boundaries, which again can be so beautiful and so nourishing and necessary a lot of the times, especially for us Scorpios who just want to merge. But yeah, it can be a problem for sure as well when there’s a lack of boundaries and again, you don’t know whose emotions you are feeling at certain point.
SR: Well said. Yeah, I think the other thing too, going back to what you’re talking about in contouring the non-waterfall with the other three elements. But, you know, what can be challenging especially for the assertive putative masculine signs is recognizing that there’s no need to fix when you have the experience of water. Whatever emotion that is, the anger, or sadness, or the joy that one experiences, you just can be in it. And that seems to be understood with water signs. Like when someone’s pissed, it’s like, “Well, why are you pissed? Blah, blah, blah.” No need to talk you out of it, I’m gonna let you feel it and maybe we’ll take a walk. Or I’ll just kind of just sit in it with you and not say anything. There can be that experience of it.
KT: Yeah, water can be really reflective, right, and so I think that other water signs are able to really reflect things back to you and just hold you in a way where you can really feel seen. Yeah, I think a lot of signs need each other for that. And other people need us for that, but I think we need each other for that.
CB: Yeah, so building strong connections through a depth of emotion. Yeah, I think that’s a really great point that Scorpio shares with both Cancer and Pisces. And Cancer and Scorpio have a tendency sometimes to get defensive or can be emotionally defensive especially at perceived threats, but then eventually can sort of open up or come out of their shells. Whereas for Scorpio and Pisces definitely that connection through emotional depth and the ability maybe even just to cry or to bond in that way can be present. There is something that Pisces doesn’t have, though. It doesn’t have that same defensive quality that Scorpio, especially, and to a lesser extent Cancer have. And sometimes I think from the Scorpio’s perspective that Pisces then can look… I’m trying to think of the term, what’s the term for that?
CB: Yeah, but also naive sometimes. I think it can come off as emotionally naive where the Scorpio can be like, “Don’t you know that you’re going to be hurt or emotionally hurt by that?” Versus the Pisces is just like that’s not… The emotional openness it’s so open that that’s not necessarily something that they’re concerned about.
SR: Also, I can’t hide from Piscean influence people. Meaning if they asked me, you know, like my best friend is a Pisces. You know, “How are you doing today, Sam?” “Well, I’m okay.” “Are you sure?” How do they know? There’s a knowing, there’s a depth, and maybe that taps into what we’ve said about water before. And you were talking about this, Kirah, the sense of knowing. And they may have that sense of knowing- The funny thing about Pisceans because they’re a mutable sign, they may know as versus the fixity of Scorpio water. They may know like, “You know, you don’t want to get involved in that relationship or do that thing.” Like, “Yeah, I know. But here we go!” And Scorpio is like, “Why would you do that?” [laughs]
KT: Yeah, he’s like, “You should know better.”
SR: You should know better. So it’s sometimes a naivete, but sometimes it’s kind of like, “What the F? You only live once. ou know, YOLO!”
KT: I think with Pisces I always think about the fish can so easily squirm out of things, they can so easily escape and the Pisces need for escape. And I think that Scorpio, the fixity of Scorpio can get very frustrated with Pisces mutability. I think Scorpio and Pisces can both be willing to go down and merge, but Pisces might not be down to merge for forever the way that Scorpio is. Pisces is down for the experience. But then it wants to swim away and find something else. You can’t hold on to a fish for that long and that could bother Scorpio for sure.
CB: Yeah, that’s a really good point. Yeah, the desire to merge singularly versus as a mutable sign with Pisces the desire to merge with a lot of people or with the universe or what have you.
KT: I dated a Pisces and that was a big problem. Like, “You’re Mr. Mayor. You’re out here with everyone else.” And I needed that for me.
SR: And I think that’s a big, I mean, we could talk about that in broad net in that in terms of mutability in general. With Scorpio, I think it’s very important to stick to the script or to the agreement. Because when you flip the script, it becomes a real problem. I don’t think the mutables understand the nature of flipping the script.
CB: Yeah, or focus. Scorpio is very focused, and mutable signs especially Pisces there’s not as much focus necessarily on a singular thing.
KT: Yes, definitely more scattered energy.
CB: Yeah. All right, that makes sense. With Pisces last-
KT: Oh, I have one more thing to say about Scorpio-Pisces but…
CB: I was just gonna mention optimism and escapism but you already mentioned escapism for Pisces. Pisces, I wanted to mention optimism just because it seems to me oftentimes by contrast like an inherently optimistic sign. And that kind of goes back to what I was saying before that it can sometimes come off as naive to Scorpio but there’s something about what the two of them bring to each other that can sometimes be helpful, I think.
KT: Yeah, I always say my Pisces rising saves me. Like, people would hate me and I’d be a total Martian bitch [laughs] more so for Pisces rising. Yeah, the Jupiterian nature that kind of keeps me afloat and not just sunken into the Scorpio swamp. But no, I was gonna say just how Scorpio and Pisces both tend to be a little bit more interested in the mystical, magical, mysteriousness of life as well. And yeah, just how Pisces tends to be really drawn to that aspect of Scorpio, the mysteriousness of Scorpio. And I think Scorpio can be really drawn to the mystical nature of Pisces, and that’s another thing they tend to have in common.
SR: That’s true.
CB: It’s a really great point because I think a phrase Scorpio and Pisces might share in common is the phrase ‘Everything happens for a reason.’ But then they may have different sort of perspectives about why they think everything happens for a reason.
SR: Right. Pisces may say it’s illumination, and Scorpio may say Illuminati. [laughter]
KT: That’s great. Yeah.
CB: Pisces is like, because there’s some greater purpose or entity or deity or something behind things, and Scorpio is like because there’s somebody behind the scenes that’s pulling the strings or because there’s some master plan or something behind things.
CB: I like that. All right, that’s pretty good for Scorpio and Pisces. Let me look back at my chart of the signs of the zodiac to see what contrasts were missing. It looks like the ones we haven’t done are the sextile signs. So, Scorpio and Virgo and Scorpio and Capricorn. And then finally also the inconjunct sign which is Scorpio and Gemini.
SR: You mean Sagittarius and Gemini? I thought you said Scorpio… Yeah, we haven’t looked at- Did we look at Sagittarius?
KT: Yeah, we haven’t looked at Sag either. Yeah, that’s a good point.
CB: Okay, why don’t we look at Sag really quickly? Because that’s a nice transition because that’s the other Jupiter-ruled sign besides Pisces. So we’ve talked a little bit about how Scorpio can be kind of pessimistic or kind of dark and then all of a sudden when you get to Sagittarius things open up and get more bright, more optimistic. Optimism, I’ve been really realizing recently, is a really core important driving force behind Sagittarius and that’s something that can sometimes act as a contrast or tension between Scorpio and Sagittarius where for Sagittarius, that internal optimism and need to almost project a positive outcome for the future and almost manifest that constantly or at least have the attempt to is really important as a guiding force for Sagittarius. And it can sometimes run up against some issues with Scorpio where that pessimism or negative negativity or seeing the shortcomings and things can sometimes almost distract from that for Sagittarius.
SR: Yeah, I tend to think about with Sagittarius optimism and enthusiasm, though. There’s an enthusiasm, you know, and that word means to be filled with the God that I have found and then observed unnerving related to Sagittarius. And what I mean by that like you’re pointing out, Scorpio has a tendency to see what’s wrong, what’s missing. And also because Scorpio has this allegiance– for lack of a better word to the truth– in a different way that Sagittarius is. Sagittarius will see truth with a little more malleability as a sign of Jupiter and mutability. So truth becomes what allows us to see the bigger picture or the broadness of things. You might say like, “Well, that sounds good. What’s wrong with that?” The darker side of that is where you can change the story to kind of make it better than it is or even seem in a different way. Or even kind of embellish and exaggerate. The example I like to give is I go to a party with a Sagittarius and there are 50 people there but we’re all having a good time. And Sagittarius will come back and report, “It was great. There were like a hundred people there and we were all dancing and having a great time.” And then Scorpio kind of goes like, “There were 50 people there. Yeah, we were having a good time but why are you saying a hundred?” Because for the Sagittarius, it felt like a hundred. That was their experience. They want to feel the ebullience of the world and the magnitude of it being greater, whereas Scorpio wants to feel the heart and merge with the world, but not necessarily have the excesses.
KT: I love that. It made me laugh. I was raised by a Scorpio and Sagittarius. My mom’s a Sag and me as a Scorpio, I’m the one always been like, “Mom, that’s such an exaggeration.” She’d be like, “This guy’s head was as big as a watermelon.” [laughs] And like, “What are you talking about?” It’s so funny. I just love that you gave that example but it felt so true. It’s like that’s how it felt to them, you know? And I think that’s gonna give me a little bit of a… That’s gonna be good for me to keep it in mind when I go home for Thanksgiving. I don’t have to burst my mom’s bubbles so much. [laughs]
SR: What about you, Chris?
CB: Yeah, I like one of the things you said about there’s a connection and similarity between the search for the truth in some way. But the Scorpio tries to dig down deep for it, whereas the Sagittarius tries to fly up above the clouds and get a bird’s eye view of everything. And they’re coming from a similar place in that but they’re sort of different approaches, in some ways.
KT: Yeah. I always think of Scorpio and Sag as the psychologist and the philosopher. Both are very much wanting to understand, you know, just come to understanding. But I think with Scorpio again, it’s about what’s the depth of it, the psychology of it all? And Sagittarius it’s kind of coming to a higher mind from that and using your more spiritual mental faculties to come to a conclusion, honestly. Not conclusion, a consensus, which is my favorite Jupiter word. One of my favorites. It’s like coming to a consensus around something. So yeah, I think both really like you said, do care a lot about truth but go about it in different ways.
SR: And experience of it. I mean, experiencing not just truth but it’s passion. There’s an alignment between passion which we talked about with Scorpio many times, and enthusiasm, which I think characterizes the Sag. But enthusiasm is kind of like… Passion literally means suffering, right? The idea of going through and feeling that pathos like why so serious? That seriousness to kind of go deep. Whereas enthusiasm is lifting us toward the god and kind of giving a gift of ourselves to the god or gods. And that fits Sagittarius fairly well, you know, the kind of lift-up. Whereas Scorpio is kind of like, “No, let’s dig deeper. I want to be on the ground.” It’s kind of like even the contrast between the two symbols, you know, the centaur versus the the arachnid.
CB: Yeah, that’s a really great point. All right, I think there’s actually a bunch more we could go on there but since I know I’ll do Sagittarius in the next episode, maybe it’s okay to move on now instead of dwelling on that too much. What about Scorpio and Gemini as signs that are in aversion to each other? What are some of the ways that they are different as a result of that aversion or maybe don’t connect?
KT: Yeah, again I come back to the elements and the airy mutability of Gemini and how it’s so concerned with gathering information and facts. And I think Scorpio is similar in a way, very similar. I did a lot of Geminis, like almost only Gemini and Gemini placements. And so I think about the Gemini-Scorpio relationship a lot and how both are very interested in information and details, I think. But with Scorpio, again, there’s the depth aspect of it that Gemini just doesn’t really have and it’s not as interested in. I think Gemini is more interested in drawing connections between things but I think of it more as like a map almost, whereas Scorpio is like the roots, like I want to go deeper. Where those connections lead, I think, are two different places with Scorpio and Gemini. Yeah, it’s like Gemini is connecting to cover more ground almost to connect more and more things, whereas Scorpio is following pieces of information and clues to kind of whittle down to something, you know, to focus in more. Yeah.
SR: I think Gemini and Scorpio are two of the most maligned signs of the zodiac. And I think that’s one thing that they have in common. When people meet Gemini- “Oh, you’re or your Gemini. Oh, wow.”
KT: That’s very much what we bond over.
SR: Or, “You’re a Scorpio.” There’s always this pause if they’re not one of those two signs. Especially with Gemini it’s like you’re two-faced at it, you know. It’s two faced, but no. So there can be this association kind of maligned in that way. I think the deeper aspect of it is something similar or if not the same to what Kirah said, which is a certain curiosity. There’s still a hunger that connects us but how we approach that hunger or what we’re looking for, what drives that hunger I think is very different. Mercury is kind of looking to, like you said, make connections and acquire things but not think about on how these things really, you know, as a source. Origin. Kind of like, “I don’t care, I don’t need to get to the origin. I just need to know this is that like this.” It’s kind of like meeting someone who knows a lot about Sun sign astrology. Like, oh, well, I can tell you’re like this and he knows the sign. “But do you know you have a chart?” “Oh, yeah I haven’t looked at the chart.” Whereas a Scorpio might go more toward here’s the chart, there’s these other things, is it true? Which is not to say Geminis don’t go deeper, of course it always deals with some dimensions of the chart. I tend to think of aversions as also having some draw to each other that seems almost inexplicable. The draw, like you were just talking about the Geminis, Kirah, I think that that’s not uncommon between Scorpios and Geminis. I don’t know if it makes for glue in terms of long-term relationship. I mean, I’m sure there are some couple successful Scorpio-Gemini relationships. But there’s an intrigue. I can’t see you. I want to learn how to see you better.
KT: Mmh. Yeah, I think both really want to know. Both Scorpio and Gemini are both really concerned with knowing. It’s just like, what do they want to know and how much do they want to know? But yeah, it’s such an interesting fun combo. And of course you get to the same issues with longevity, with the scattered airy nature of Gemini and Scorpio not being able. How do you merge with that, you know, not being able to hold on and contain that?
SR: Or when to flip the script literally. It’s kind of like, “Well, that was yesterday. Let’s try something.” “What was wrong with yesterday?”
KT: It’s like, “Well, you just told me that this is what you wanted to do.” And Gemini is like, “Oh, yeah, no. I changed my mind a couple hours ago.”
SR: Or what I have found myself– and I don’t know if other Scorpios experiences, I don’t know, Chris, if you experienced this, it sounds like you have, Kirah– is that a Gemini influenced person will say something and not mean it half is deep or serious as I might take it. And I don’t mean just in terms of something that might hurt my feelings, but they’ll just have a thought about something. And it’s like well, it’s just a thought. I almost have to consistently remind myself with a Gemini influence person, “They may just be thinking it. And it’s just on the level of thought, it’s not…”
CB: He may say it as a passing thing. That’s similar to Pisces, saying that thing that comes to mind but then not necessarily being fully committed to it, whereas the Scorpio is more committing to things that are said and says them with much more intention and follow-through, and intention to follow through than Gemini or Pisces might.
SR: Yeah, Gemini might say, “I might go to Turkey next year.” Like, Oh, okay.” “Yeah, I could be in Turkey.” And they might say it for the day and then you talk to him a week later, “Well, did you make progress with Turkey?” But “What do you mean?” Aren’t you going to Turkey?” “Oh, no, no. Me? Not.” But a Scorpio when they kind of reveal like I might be in Turkey, it’s like, well, actually I’ve looked into the Airbnbs there… There is all this other thing attached with it.
KT: And I think that’s one of the main things with Gemini and Scorpio, it’s like Gemini is ruled by Mercury and there is more of a communicative quality to that. Whereas Mercury in water signs is essentially mute and has a lot more of these nonverbal ways of communicating. And so I think yeah, the communication piece of Scorpio and Gemini, that can be off to be a point of contention I found personally. The ways that the communication happens is very very different.
CB: Yeah. And that the core tension, I think a lot comes from just issues of depth versus lack of depth. And Gemini wanting to do many different things or have at least a basic level or surface level knowledge of many things versus Scorpio wanting to focus in on just one or just a few things and having very deep knowledge or information about that thing. And sometimes Gemini to Scorpio can come off as just talking for the sake of talking, versus Gemini to Scorpio can sometimes feel like being overly serious or overly fixated on something that, like we said earlier, doesn’t have to be that deep.
CB: All right, that’s pretty good for Gemini. The next one might be the other Mercury-ruled sign which is Virgo, which is sextile to Scorpio and they share some similar connections in terms of both being nocturnal or feminine signs. So here we get another Mercury-ruled sign but it’s a little bit more connection or a little bit more flowing of the connection compared to Scorpio and Gemini.
SR: Yeah, it’s an Earth sign so it’s cold and dry nature complements the cold and wet nature of Scorpio. And I think there’s a way, especially with Virgo, it’s even interesting that there’s a similarity in the glyphs. Not that that that means anything completely astrological but it’s always been intriguing to me. And I think there’s a way in which Virgos need to kind of fact-check and think in terms of details some aspects of its nature of wanting to be ready and prepared and efficient and thorough is satisfying. I find it really satisfying for Scorpio. It’s weird that nocturnal aspect of Mercury seems to be a little more soothing and familiar to Scorpio.
KT: Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s the efficiency is the word that keeps coming to mind for me that I think both signs appreciate about each other. Thinking about an exalted Mercury in Virgo and how there’s, again, that attention to detail. Also, there’s something with the humbleness to Virgo as well that Scorpio is drawn towards. And again, the earthy grounded nature, earth and water in general are great complements. I always think about how Earth is able to provide a container for water, which is otherwise formless. And I think Scorpio can find, like you said, a lot of comfort in the grounded nature of Virgo and the detail-oriented nature as well. Whereas similarly with Gemini being a Mercury-ruled sign, there’s a need to know. There’s this need to sort of gather information. And again, Scorpio also wants information and there’s that same sort of nocturnal downward denseness to both signs that complement each other really well. Virgos and Scorpios really love each other. I think those are like a combo in the zodiac that just really, really find a lot of comfort in each other, I find.
CB: Yeah, for sure. And I also mentioned that I’ve been in the series mostly using the older stoic associations of the qualities of the elements which makes the water signs like Scorpio wet and the Earth signs like Virgo dry and that’s part of their complementary nature and the way that they balance each other out well. But I think part of the strong connection between Virgo and Scorpio is where Scorpio has more tensions and issues with Gemini due to the lack of depth. I think we get much more of a groundedness and much more depth when it comes to Virgo where Mercury is exalted, and you can see more of a focus on mastery or trying to develop into the best version of something, because Virgo is so hyper aware of the minor details and the faults or the errors of things that it tries to correct them and tries to… It just has an inability not to focus on those small details and small errors that it always tries to do the best job it can. And in that, it’s kind of similar to Scorpio’s ability to see the weaknesses of something or the points where it has weaknesses that it needs to defend against or what have you.
SR: Yeah, and I think there’s a complementary nature beyond just what we’ve described so far but related to what we were describing earlier. I think when I find, and you talked about it just a second ago Kirah in terms of the humility that often can be associated with Virgo. I think as a Mercurial sign, the strength related to Scorpio specifically may be in giving detail, giving information… Almost like the librarian. Like, “Oh, you need these books?” In terms of we go in and like, “Oh, I need this, this, this and this.” What I think Scorpio can give to Virgo is some measure that bravery to kind of like, “You know you’re more than just a librarian, right? You can do more than just being at the library. I can see you lecturing.” “Me? Doing that? I can’t do that.” Because Scorpio, at its best, also can have a certain level of daring as you said, a certain bravery. But sometimes I think Virgos can talk themselves out of the game because there’s so wired toward efficiency and being prepared they always think they’re underprepared. Not recognizing that sometimes you have to ready, aim… or ready, fire aim. I keep messing that up. But you know, it’s kind of just to shoot.
CB: Yeah, for sure. All right, that’s pretty good with Scorpio and Virgo, I think that’s definitely right here, those two are the signs that get along really well. And then finally the last one we haven’t talked about is the other sextile sign from Scorpio, which is Capricorn, which is the other side of the other Saturn-ruled sign since we already talked about Saturn as the traditional ruler of Aquarius. So here we get similar complementary qualities between a water sign and an Earth sign with Scorpio and Capricorn, and I think here you actually get a lot of similar overlap that we got with Scorpio and Virgo, where Virgo can be hyper-fixated on the details, and that complements Scorpios ability to see the weaknesses in itself or in others. And with Capricorn, there can be similarly through that Saturn rulership the ability to see the faults in something or to criticize something. Saturn, and especially Capricorn is very good at criticizing things both in terms of itself as well as in terms of others.
SR: Yeah, and I think that criticism lends itself. Because I think of Capricorn as more of sign committed to and related to evolution. Because it’s not just a goat, but a sea goat covering a creature, both of the sea and land. And there is a way in which, you know, Virgo may have been committed to readying form, but we could say Capricorn is committed to evolving form, shifting the form to more of its highest potential and peak. And of course that’s going to be intriguing to Scorpio as a way in which like, oh, it’s kind of taking one’s passion. Now there may be a different schema and I know there’s a different schema for why Mars is exalted in Capricorn, I don’t think it was arranged by psychology. But when we look at Mars exalted in Capricorn as the sign of the planet that rules Scorpio, we can recognize that Mars gets structure discipline, and there’s a way in which it finds some stronger sense of purpose. And also can relate to, you know, “Okay, you’ve been a sprinter. Or you can do these bursts. But can you run this marathon? And can you learn to run this marathon?” I think Capricorn we see in Capricorn it’s something that really inspires Scorpio.
KT: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think this is another combo that just really loves each other. And I think a big part of it is that Mars exalts in Capricorn. And just what you were saying how when Earth is able to give a container for water, I think the Capricorn container for Scorpio or for for Mars, we could say, is especially great for Mars because it enables excellence essentially. It enables Mars to really take a form that will take it to new levels essentially. And I think that Scorpio is really attracted to the power. I think both, sorry, I think both are attracted to the power that the other holds. It’s another power couple type of combo for that reason.
CB: Yeah, for sure. It’s definitely a good combo. Yeah, and that… I don’t know, I keep coming back to the ability to see the weaknesses and things but in that, they’re able to help each other out by fixing those things and ideally being able to build on them and become stronger together as a result. And I think that’s the real promise of that combination more than anything and an ability to stick with things kind of in the long term.
KT: Yeah, as a Mars in Scorpio talking to Mars in Caps, something that I really admire about Mars in Capricorn as opposed to Mars in Scorpio is that, you know, a planet and domicile I wouldn’t say can get lazy, but it can get too consistent almost. It can get too caught in its ways, especially in a Fixed sign. And I think about, you know, Mars in Scorpio can kind of just keep digging to no avail, essentially. Whereas Mars in Capricorn, there’s more purpose and there’s goals, right? There’s gold points to make. And it’s more about building as opposed to just digging. That’s something I really love about Mars in Capricorn and Capricorn in general and how I think that Capricorns can be so helpful for Scorpio in that way, but also in the sense that Scorpio can kind of bring Capricorn back down to Earth too and remind Capricorn that substance and depth are so important two things. And Capricorn can get a little cold. They can get caught up there on the mountain and Scorpio can kind of bring them back down and in.
SR: And get too practical. I think and get too practical, it can be very workman-like and be attentive to the work but not the passion. And, you know, kind of like that hunger. It’s kind of like the polished fighter coming against the– even though it’s a sextile– with the passionate fighter. It’s kind of like Scorpio brings still this this hunger. For those who know Rocky, it’s kind of Rocky becoming champion versus Clubber Lang, right? It’s kind of like where you have this sense of this hunger from Scorpio, that’s where I think Capricorn feels fed from Scorpio. Because it can lose that, it can get so caught up in like, “Well, don’t climb on my mountain, I have my mountain and this is what I do.” But Scorpio’s kind of like, “Well, we can have more.”
CB: Yeah, I think they definitely share a love for strategy and playing the long game. And that was definitely something I was hearing from both of you that it made me think of that I could see. I know Scorpio and Capricorn get along very well and complement each other well.
SR: Yeah. And the long game is kind of like I said, you know, this commitment to one’s evolution to growth. I won’t say perfection or form, but kind of the key development of form.
CB: Definitely. All right. Well, I think that was the last zodiac sign combination that we needed to cover here today. So we have… I feel like– I don’t know if I’m just saying this because I’m a Scorpio but I feel like we’ve gone deeper in this episode than I have gone in some other episodes. This has been a lot of fun, this has been amazing. I can’t believe how much we’ve covered today but this was great. Thank you both.
SR: Thank you.
KT: Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much for having me, this is really fun.
SR: Yeah, and it’s funny to do it with my sister, right? I don’t mean my skin but I mean, like, our complementarity over two charts and then a connection to you, Chris. So that’s great. Thank you. I don’t know if we’re gonna talk about any other Scorpios, you know, like famous ones or notable ones. I don’t know if we have time.
CB: I mean, I thought about whether, you know, we haven’t mentioned many example charts. I hadn’t lined up a lot. We could. I know we’ve mentioned a few in passing. We were getting into so many good keywords that I was kind of just gonna skip over it.
SR: That’s fine, yeah. I don’t know how Kirah feels. One chart that I don’t know if we had on our list to talk about, but one of my favorite Scorpio charts and I did put it up on Twitter recently is Marie Curie. I think if anyone wants to look up her chart, which is double A, I really think that’s a Scorpio chart worth looking at as kind of getting a sense of Scorpio. She has this powerful Scorpio stellium. And she really did exhibit that including kind of looking at the deeper recesses of matter and discovering radiation.
KT: That’s so true, wow. Yeah, I remembered her birthday. I remember studying her in elementary school and doing a project on hair. So that’s so funny, she has a lot of Scorpio.
CB: For the audio listeners, she has the Sun, Saturn, Venus and Mars in Scorpio.
SR: Along with the midheaven.
CB: Yeah. It’s a 12 o’clock time, I don’t know what the source is if that’s a noon chart or if it’s…
SR: Yeah, I thought it was double A, which is it could be…
CB: Yeah, looks like it is double A 12 o’clock p.m Warsaw time. So as long as that’s correct, she’s also Capricorn rising. So Saturn is the ruler of the Ascendant and she also has the midheaven there in Scorpio.
SR: And it’s opposite to Pluto. Her Sun is directly opposite the Pluto so this need to kind of deep dive is really there even at the cost of her life and health. Again, Scorpio. Because from all the exposure to radiation, she did die relatively early from the radiation.
KT: Yeah, wow. What’s her name? The author, shares my birthday, Kelly used to talk about her a lot.
SR: Margaret Atwood?
KT: No. Jesus. She’s a Scorpio. Nevermind, forget it. It’s all about vulnerability and being brave.
SR: Oh, Brené Brown.
KT: Yes, slipped over my tongue. Yeah, she’s another Scorpio whose chart I like. Yeah, again, the vulnerability piece, the bravery… That’s a lot of Scorpio Martian words and having to do with this more psychological and emotional aspects of life. So that was another one.
SR: Well, before we leave, I do want to ask since we aren’t going to talk too much about charts; there was one chart and then one person you wanted to explore. I’ve always been intrigued by– both in a negative and a positive way– what is up with Drake?
KT: I knew you were gonna say Drake. [laughs]
SR: What is it about Drake, actually?
CB: What about him specifically?
SR: People either really, really, really, really hate him or really, really, really, really love him. He’s, I think from his onset, has been such a polarizing person. I mean, not person himself or trying to do that. But there’s a way in which he polarizes people and I’m just trying to like, what is it? So I was just curious related to his chart. I don’t know if you have his chart, Chris.
CB: Yeah, I’ve got his chart. And Drake famously released an album titled Scorpion not too long ago, like a few years ago, but this is a double A time where he has very late Leo rising and his Sun at zero degrees of Scorpio and then Pluto Venus, the IC and Mercury also in Scorpio.
SR: So is it just as simple as a Mars-Pluto square? I don’t know. What do you think Kirah?
KT: Honestly, I was thinking… I said oh because I was looking at the Jupiter-Moon domicile trine to all the Scorpio stuff. To me, I think he’s a little corny. [laughs] That’s almost like, “Oh, that’s what it is. It’s that Moon-Jupiter.” I think domicile planets can be kind of corny and basic. I’m saying this as with three domicile planets. And so yeah, that’s kind of what I was thinking. [crosstalk] He’s not as hard as he comes off. Yes, I think people want him to be more like a hard Scorpio and he’s a little bit I think he’s too soft underneath. [laughs]
SR: Yeah, he started from the bottom but we’re here. [laughter]
KT: He’s a softie.
SR: But yeah, at the same time I guess maybe that Regulus rising really supports him as having this power and wielding this influence. But I think some of that does happen with Scorpio and we didn’t talk about that. But one other trait with Scorpios can be some aspect of polarization. I mean, I mentioned Marie Curie. She was well achieved as the first woman to actually have a Nobel Prize, the only woman in history to win it twice, the Nobel Prize. But at the same time, there were many in French society for different reasons who hated her, and who loathed her and didn’t relish her success. Similarly, people feel a similar way with P. Diddy as another kind of well-known Scorpio-influence person. So yeah, I think that’s kind of one other concern I would have with that. And then there’s Whoopi. So it’s interesting to kind of note these… And Hillary, I can’t forget Hillary. Hillary is another person who’s kind of like… [laughs] I think Joe Biden is another Scorpio who was able to be successful as not being Hillary, really.
KT: Kris Jenner, another polarizing Scorpio. A lot of Jenners, a lot of the Kardashians have a lot of Scorpio placements too. Yeah.
SR: What were you gonna say, Chris?
CB: Just that one of the interesting things with both Hillary and Biden is some of that theme that sometimes comes up as Scorpios of the death and rebirth thing of having sometimes a great crisis or suffering a great setback or hitting a lowest point and then having to come back from that from Biden. For Biden with his stellium of planets in the 12th house, having that incident where when he was I think it was 30 years old when he was first elected to public office and first became a politician, I think a month after that or a few weeks after he was elected to office, his family was involved in a car wreck and he lost his wife and I think two of his children. And it was like a major loss but then he sort of stuck with it and persevered and then went on to be a politician and eventually become president. But then even later before he became president like a few years ago, he was questioning whether to run in 2016, and then his son Beau Biden died. So he suffered this other great loss but then ended up having to come back from that.
And of course, with Hillary, she’s gone through that. Hillary Clinton she’s gone through a similar theme several times in her life of suffering major losses or setbacks and then having to basically just wake up the next day and pick up the pieces and move forward. It was interesting hearing her describe that, like after the loss of the 2016 election to Trump and how do you come back from that? That’s a similar theme I think that Scorpios sometimes that comes up at different points or in different ways of their life of how do you come back from what would seem to other people as just an impossible loss, but still persevere and survive. And there’s something about survival like a survivor quality to Scorpios and a Scorpio energy that I think is really interesting.
SR: Yeah, I would agree with that.
KT: I remember inertly once speaking on that about Scorpio and saying how, you know, there’ll be a plane crash and they’ll be the one lone survivor and it will be a Scorpio. And it reminds me about how the scorpion and how that animal has persevered for so long and so well. Yeah, there’s definitely a big survival aspect to it.
CB: Yeah. But then also the processing of that and the processing of things like grief and how it affects a person, but also how sometimes grief can also instill a sense of empathy. That’s something I think that’s important sometimes as well is through loss or pain or hardships, sometimes it creates a sense of empathy, which is like an emotional feeling that people might not have otherwise if they hadn’t had or suffered that same sort of loss or tragedy.
SR: Yeah, so that can help them in terms of connecting. That’s somewhat true. Yeah.
KT: I think that’s why people… There’s a stereotype around Scorpios and sort of everyone just telling us all their secrets or just kind of feeling really safe to disclose a lot to be vulnerable around Scorpios. I think there is some maybe sort of underlying thing around people sort of expecting almost that you get it or that you’ve been there before in some way. That you’ve been through some shit and that you can handle what they’re bringing to you. Yeah.
SR: That you can receive it. Yeah.
KT: Yeah, you can hold it.
CB: Yeah. And I think that’s the psychologists of the zodiac and the confidants, sort of that’s the Scorpio role sometimes.
CB: All right. Brilliant. Well, true to our zodiac signs, we are having trouble letting go of this episode and this discussion of the podcast since we’re at three hours now. [Sam laughs] But this is, I dare say it and I think I’ve said this a few times because every episode gets better, but I think this is one of the best episodes I’ve done so far. So thank you both for joining me for this deep dive into Scorpio. Sam, where can we find out more information about your work and other things?
SR: unlockastrology.com, and you can also find me on Twitter @UnlockAstrology and on IG at S as in Sam, F is in Fred, Reynolds. So @sfreynolds.
CB: Hopefully Twitter is still there by the time we release this episode, I don’t know. We’ll see what happens. It’s been a weird eclipse season. Kirah, where can we find out more information about you?
KT: Yeah, I’m thestrology.com, t h e strology, no A, dot com. thestrology.com. @thestrology on Instagram, @theastrology_ on Twitter, and The Strology Show on YouTube and other places you listen to podcasts.
CB: Awesome. Excellent. Great. Well, I’ll put links to both of those in the description below this video on YouTube or on the podcast website in the entry for this episode. So that’s it for this episode. Thanks, both of you for joining me today.
SR: Thank you.
KT: Thank you.
CB: All right. And thanks everyone, for watching or listening to this episode of The Astrology Podcast and we’ll see you again next time.
Special thanks to all the patrons that helped to support the production of this episode of the podcast through our page on patreon.com. In particular, shoutout to the patrons on our producers’ tier including Thomas Miller, Catherine Conroy, Kristi Moe, Ariana Amour, Mandi Rae, Angelic Nambo, Issah Sabah, Jake Otero, Mimi Stargazer, and Jeanne Marie Kaplan. If you like the work that I’m doing here on the podcast and you would like to find a way to support it then please consider becoming a patron through my page on patreon.com and in exchange you’ll get access to bonus content such as early access to new episodes, the ability to attend the live recording of the month ahead forecast each month, access to a private monthly auspicious elections report that we put out each month, access to exclusive episodes that are only available for patrons, or you can also get your name listed in the credits at the end of each episode. For more information, go to patreon.com/astrologypodcast.
The main software we use here on the podcast to look at astrological charts is called Solar Fire for Windows which is available at alabe.com, and you can use the promo code AP15 to get a 15% discount. For Mac users, we use a similar set of software by the same programming team called Astro Gold for Mac OS which is available from astrogold.io, and you can use the promo code ASTROPODCAST15 to get a 15% discount on that as well.
If you’d like to learn more about the approach to astrology that I outline on the podcast, then you should check out my book titled Hellenistic Astrology: The Study of Fate and Fortune, where I traced the origins of Western astrology and reconstructed the original system that was developed about 2000 years ago. In this book, I outline basic concepts but also take you into intermediate and advanced techniques for reading a birth chart, including some timing techniques. You can find out more about the book at hellenisticastrology.com/book. The book pairs very well with my online course on ancient astrology called the Hellenistic Astrology Course, which has over 100 hours of video lectures where I go into detail about teaching you how to read a birth chart, and showing hundreds of example charts in order to really demonstrate how the techniques work in practice. Find out more information about that at theastrologyschool.com.
Finally, special thanks to our sponsors including The Mountain Astrologer magazine available at mountainastrologer.com, and the Honeycomb Collective Personal Astrological Almanacs and Calendars available at honeycomb.co.