TAP Ep. 283 Transcript: Saturn Return in Capricorn Retrospective

May 10, 2026

The Astrology Podcast

Transcript of Episode 283, titled:

Saturn Return in Capricorn Retrospective

With Chris Brennan and Leisa Schaim

Episode originally released on December 14, 2020

Original episode URL:

https://theastrologypodcast.com/2020/12/14/saturn-return-in-capricorn-retrospective/

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Note: This is a transcript of a spoken word podcast. If possible, we encourage you to listen to the audio or video version, since they include inflections that may not translate well when written out. Our transcripts are created by human transcribers, and the text may contain errors and differences from the spoken audio. If you find any errors then please send them to us by email: theastrologypodcast@gmail.com

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Transcribed by Teresa “Peri” Lardo

Transcription released May 10th, 2026

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CHRIS BRENNAN: Hi. My name is Chris Brennan, and you’re listening to The Astrology Podcast. In this episode, I am joined by Leisa Schaim, and we’re gonna be going over a retrospective about Saturn returns that have happened in Capricorn over the past three years since Saturn has been transiting through that sign and people who were born with Saturn in the sign of Capricorn had Saturn return back to its natal location and some of the experiences that come along with the Saturn return.

So we’re gonna spend a little bit of time at the beginning reviewing some of our basic interpretative principles surrounding Saturn returns in a birth chart, and then we’re gonna jump into going through a series of examples that were sent in by listeners of the podcast over the past few months of people talking about what their experience has been with the Saturn return based especially on where it’s placed and what its condition is in their birth chart. And we’re gonna try to structure this by going through some of the stories we were given – like, let’s say two to three stories each – for Saturn being placed in each of the 12 houses. So most of them were sent in by listeners. We’ve also got some celebrity charts that we’ll throw in. Unfortunately, thanks to everybody who sent in questions and Saturn return stories, we won’t be able to get to all of them because we received over a hundred different submissions, I think. We do have a good chunk of those in here today, but let me apologize to anybody whose story we didn’t get to and thanks to everyone who sent them in regardless.

LEISA SCHAIM: And it really did help us prepare, regardless of whether your story is shared today, so thank you for that.

CB: Yeah. All right. So I should say the date. So today is Saturday – right?

LS: Yes.

CB: December 12th, 2020, starting – I must have started a minute or so ago, so it’s 2:39 PM in Denver, Colorado, now, so we started at 2:38, 2:37 with Jupiter and Saturn on the Midheaven here in Denver. Why don’t we go ahead and jump right into this?

LS: Okay. Sounds good.

So let’s start with some of the basic principles.

CB: So here’s our little Saturn returns in Capricorn title slide.

LS: So reviewing the basic principles of Saturn returns briefly – the Saturn return occurs when Saturn does return to the place it was in in the zodiac when you were born both by sign and by degree. So we consider the Saturn return period from the first time that Saturn enters the sign that it was in when you were born, and then the last time that it leaves the sign that it was in when you were born, even if there are retrogrades in between.

CB: Yeah. So everybody was born with Saturn in a specific sign of the zodiac. Saturn takes about 27 to 30 years to go around a complete cycle of the zodiac and come back to where it started. So the Saturn return is defined both in terms of Saturn returning back to its natal sign of the zodiac as well as its natal degree.

So in our practice, we interpret as occurring for the entire duration of Saturn going through its natal sign from the time that it first comes back to the last time that it leaves that sign. Although the period when it gets back to the exact degree is usually the period that’s felt as the most intense where some of the most important events tend to happen, although there’s still relevant things happening during that entire period.

LS: Right. And you’ll hear different people talk about different definitions of the Saturn return. But if you do watch – you know, because sometimes people just do it as the particular degree or a few degree orb around that, but if you do watch Saturn ingress into the sign that it was in when you were born, some things do start kicking up right at the beginning, even if they don’t fully unfold at that point.

CB: Yeah. And part of that has to do with the fact that a decent bit of what the Saturn return about is Saturn also not just going through the natal sign, but also going through the natal house placement that it had in your birth chart. So if it’s returning back to your first house or if it’s returning back to a Saturn return in your 10th house or what have you, it’s partially experiencing the significations of that house and some of the things associated with it in your birth chart coming alive in a way that’s new and different and important.

LS: Exactly. So the first Saturn return is often considered the most important or the most foundational, at least, because it is the first time you will experience that, which is about age 27 to 30, sometimes 31 for some people. But it is a whole cycle. And so then it starts the second cycle, and it will come back around and people will have a second Saturn return between approximately ages 56 to 60, depending on where it was placed exactly when you were born. And then some people will get a third one as well, if you live long enough; that’ll be in the late 80s.

CB: Yeah. So usually the first Saturn return is considered to be more important. I think that’s true; you’re looking at me like that’s not true! I mean, I’m not saying it’s not —

LS: I wanna qualify it!

CB: — important, and we’re gonna mix some examples we got from listeners were from the first Saturn return – I think most of them. There were some that we’re gonna show that are second Saturn returns, and I think we have one or two that might be third Saturn returns. There’s at least one celebrity example I have of that.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Why are you looking at me skeptically about the first Saturn return being more important?

LS: I just wanna qualify that with a little nuance. It’s not to say that I don’t think – I do think the first one is more foundational – that’s how I would describe it. Not necessarily more important than the others, per se, but it is kind of novel at that point because it’s the first time that you will experience that compared to the second or perhaps third. And so it does – it kind of imprints much more strongly, I think, in your experience even though the second one event-wise can be very eventful. But I think, and a few people I know that wrote in about their second Saturn returns, did describe it that way, that they kind of knew more what to expect during —

CB: Right.

LS: — their second Saturn return because they’d gone through it before. So that’s where – I would just say it’s more foundational.

CB: Yeah. Well, I think one of the reasons why it’s more foundational and sometimes experienced as more important because it’s the closing of the first 30-year chapter of your life. And there’s a lot of feelings of endings and new beginnings, and then so it’s closing one 30-year chapter of your life, opening another, but it’s also often treated by astrologers as like, the final passageway or the final doorway into full-fledged adulthood in some sense.

LS: Right.

CB: And I think there’s something to that where, you know, you feel different coming out of it than you did going into it, and there’s a greater sense of like, maturity and hitting a new stride in your life and new life stages and things like that. And while you still definitely get some of that with the second Saturn return, there’s something very defining about that first one that’s very unique.

LS: I agree. Yeah, I definitely agree on that piece. And you know, people will often describe it as the final frontier of childhood into adulthood, even though technically you are an adult legally much before that. But there are still kind of lingering pieces that fully solidify or concretize at that point, I think.

CB: Yeah. So we should mention – I forgot to mention that we’ve done this before. We actually did a review of Saturn in Sagittarius returns with our friend Patrick Watson in late 2017 back in episode 131, and there’s actually a video of that on YouTube as well as on the Astrology Podcast website. So this is something that we do from time to time, and you and I have had a special and ongoing interest in Saturn returns because we used to write a blog called SaturnReturnStories.com, which still exists but we haven’t been blogging as much since I shifted my focus more towards podcasting. But it has some good stories and articles for those that are getting ready to go into their Saturn return or wanna learn more about it in terms of resources.

LS: And then I was focusing on it for a while as well just personally just because I was really focused on Saturnian principles, which we’ll get into here in a moment. So I did some lectures on it and an article that got reprinted a few different places.

CB: Right.

LS: Yeah.

CB: All right. So in terms of what Saturn signifies natally, it’s gonna activate and bring maturity whatever it does signify in the birth chart and whatever matters it has rulership or control over, both in a general sense as like, Saturn and its general meanings, as well as in a unique or particular sense in terms of its placement in the birth chart by houses, ruling houses and other conditions.

What are some significations of Saturn, though, that are relevant generally speaking that become more prominent during the Saturn return?

LS: Yeah, it could be like, a few different paragraphs, but I mean, some of the main things that I first think of with Saturnian general significator principles are things that take a long time, or things that are unfolding over the long-term. So things that aren’t quick, basically, because Saturn also rules things like slowness, delays, obstacles. Not necessarily a “no,” although sometimes it can be like a no. But basically things that are trying, I would say, and that require perseverance, and there’s lots of other things. That’s the first few I would say.

CB: Yeah. So sometimes trials, setbacks. There can be two varieties; there’s the “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger,” and after a period of strong focus and dedication and perseverance you eventually overcome and come out of something stronger and wiser than you were when you went into it. There’s the other version, though, which is just the brick wall of you’ve run into an area of your life where you cannot proceed further, and Saturn sort of says “no,” and you have to sort of turn around or go in a different direction, no longer being able to proceed down that specific path.

LS: Definitely. And there are things, like you said, where you can kind of persevere and get through it, and then there are some things where it’s sort of like, the acceptance of limitations, which is a Saturn word.

CB: Yeah. The acceptance of limitations, coming to know one’s limitations, coming to know sometimes hardships or sometimes learning about – like, I think we often mention the book The Greatness of Saturn, which is like, a Vedic astrology parable type book that tells this story that’s actually pretty intense. But it’s a good story about learning and gaining wisdom through suffering, essentially, and sometimes the unique or special type of wisdom that can only come about through having real hardship or loss. And as a result of that, having a perspective that is different than anything you could have had about that area otherwise.

LS: Exactly. Yeah.

CB: Yeah. All right. So all these are Saturn things. We’ll come back to some others.

So one of the things I already mentioned the idea that this is the end of one 30-year cycle and the beginning of another, so a major theme for Saturn returns in particular is endings and beginnings.

LS: Yes.

CB: So that’s a good keyword to use. And then one of the things you can do is focus in on what is the placement and what is the condition of Saturn in the birth chart in terms of how will that theme of endings and beginnings become relevant to you personally in your life. So one thing is to look at the house placement that Saturn is located in.

LS: Right. So the house placement should signify many of the major themes or the arenas in which you will have your Saturn return experiences. And the others will be the two houses that Saturn rules. So traditionally, Saturn rules Capricorn and Aquarius. And so you will have two to three house areas or house themes or topics that will come up for your Saturn return.

CB: Yeah. So when we’re going through these charts, just remember that one of our main interpretive principles is we’re looking at the house that Saturn is placed in natally is becoming activated, and then the two houses it rules as importing topics and activating the topics that it rules at the same time. That’s one of the things that’s unique about people that have Saturn in Capricorn and Saturn in Aquarius is that because Saturn is in its own sign, it’s actually in one of the houses that it rules. So it kind of concentrates things a little bit, whereas for most other Saturn signs, it spreads them out because it can bring into account three different houses, whereas for people as we’ll see today with Saturn in Capricorn, it really just concentrates two houses in particular.

LS: True. Although when you get more complex, you can also bring in planets that are in a hard aspect to Saturn natally, and the houses those are placed in and ruling, because those will also bring in topics. And I think we’ll have a couple examples of that, too.

CB: Yeah. So what are some of the other things that we take into account? Mitigating factors make a major difference.

LS: Well, sect first, I would say.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Day versus night chart.

CB: Which is one of the mitigating factors.

LS: Sure.

CB: So mitigating factors are things that can make things better or worse in terms of the natal placement of the planet. So one of the primary ones that you and I have focused on for many years and that we found very useful for interpreting the quality of the Saturn return and how it’s gonna be experienced subjectively is whether the person is born with a day chart or a night chart.

LS: The day chart people, that’s really the kind of experience where you do have like, “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger,” or working hard to achieve pinnacles for things you’ve already been working hard at up to this point. Things of that nature. They usually go a little bit more positively with day charts, subjectively speaking, all other factors being equal. And all other factors are not always equal! So you know, you have to qualify that, of course. But generally speaking, the day chart Saturn returns go a little bit easier.

CB: Right, so —

LS: More constructively.

CB: That’s something we’ll see a little bit in our example charts. Other mitigating factors that I’d always seen consistently – I know you’ve seen as well – is just if Saturn is in one of its domiciles, which is Capricorn or Aquarius, or if it’s in the sign of its exaltation, which is Libra, those stories tend to be a little more constructive or a little bit more positive Saturn return stories than at other times. And that’s a general principle that we outlined way back in like, episode 13, I think, of The Astrology Podcast which there’s an audio version of the podcast website. There’s not a video version of, because that was before we were doing video. But that’s actually our main Saturn return episode. And we’re kind of just recapitulating really quickly some of the points that we talked about for two hours in that episode.

LS: Right.

CB: But anyway, Saturn in Capricorn – so one of the nice things about some of these stories that we’re gonna go through today is even though we will see some instances of hardship and difficulty and loss as well as other constructive things, one of the people I remember distinctly at the end of theirs, they were kind of like, “Isn’t the Saturn return supposed to be more difficult? Because this wasn’t really too bad.”

LS: Right.

CB: And one of the things I would say is I do think there’s some element where because people have Saturn in its natal sign and they get that sort of pure expression or pure essence of Saturn, there’s some way in which some of these people with Saturn in Capricorn are almost more prepared to deal with some of the themes that come up in Saturn returns compared to other people that have Saturn in different signs. And that may be part of what we’re seeing about why that’s experienced as like, a mitigating condition.

LS: Yeah, definitely. It kind of has its own rulership support, and so it doesn’t need to lean on like, a different ruler. Saturn is in its own sign in Capricorn and Aquarius, and so it’s kind of much more straightforward.

CB: Right. Okay. So other mitigating conditions are if Saturn is configured to the benefics – Venus and Jupiter in different ways, especially close degree-based aspects, especially if it’s being overcome by Jupiter in a day chart or Venus in a night chart through a superior square or superior trine, then it will bonify Saturn and it will make it less difficult. And it will make the return more constructive and experienced more positively than it might be otherwise.

Conversely, if it’s configured to Mars, especially in a day chart, that can sometimes through a hard aspect – like a conjunction, square, or opposition – that can sometimes make the Saturn return more difficult because then that hard aspect with Mars gets activated at the same time.

LS: Definitely. And you know, we’re making that qualitative distinction to say how one might subjectively experience that, either more positively or more constructively or with more hardship or difficulty or struggle. But I kind of wanna throw in here, make sure that it’s clear that that’s a qualitative distinction that’s quite separate from whether the experience is meaningful for you. And so that’s something to keep in mind, too, because I think sometimes when we throw out these qualitative distinctions, people can occasionally get a little fixated on like, is my Saturn return gonna be good or bad, right? And so I think it’s important to say, like, you know, no matter what, people go through many meaningful experiences during their Saturn return, even if there are differences in sort of difficulty.

CB: Yeah. And some of the differences in difficulty only become relevant from our standpoint as practitioners as astrologers and practitioners when we’re distinguishing between different clients and being able to call and articulate how a Saturn return is gonna be experienced ahead of time, versus when a person is actually going through it themself, there’s a different level where some pieces of that maybe are not as relevant.

LS: I think it can be validating if someone is particularly struggling, but it’s not everything, is what I’m trying to say.

CB: Yeah. Okay. Anyway, so there’s mitigating conditions. There’s a whole episode I did with Michael Ofek at one point earlier in The Astrology Podcast on mitigating conditions that goes into more stuff like that, so check that out if you wanna learn more about that.

You wrote down that many stories mention parents or father figures or parent figures needing help or dying.

LS: Yeah, because Saturn also as a general significator rules limits; mortality is one limit. You know, it’s the limit of our lifespan. And aging is also a Saturn word. And so I just wanted to throw in there that this kind of was a commonality across many Saturn return stories that were sent in. It doesn’t always have to be that the 4th house of parents or family or the 8th house, which can involve mortality, is brought in to have that experience just because it’s a general signification as well of Saturn no matter where it’s placed. And so things like you becoming an adult mean that the people who were your parent figures are even older.

CB: Right.

LS: At that point.

CB: Okay. Let’s see, other things. The Saturn return can be amplified or altered by things like profections or other transits. See my previous episodes on annual profections for more about that. But basically, if the annual profection comes to the sign that your Saturn is located in or otherwise activates Saturn in some way, that’s gonna make that Saturn return year more eventful for you than other times.

Additionally, there’s other transits that are going on. This year was actually kind of unique in terms of that as a good example, because a lot of the Saturn in Capricorn people were having their Saturn returns, but at the same time, there was just like, a lot of other stuff going on in Capricorn where last December in December of 2019, Jupiter ingressed into Capricorn, so it spent the past year there. So the last year of every Saturn in Capricorn person’s Saturn return had Jupiter there. Pluto has also been transiting through Capricorn, and Saturn actually conjoined it at the beginning of this year in January of 2020. Then there was that lovely pileup when Mars went in there in like, February, and that pileup in March which actually in the US coincided with country-wide lockdowns when all of the planets met up in Capricorn and there was that nice stellium for a little bit in March and almost April.

So and then on top of that, if that wasn’t enough, you also notice the nodal axis was transiting through that sign of Cancer and Capricorn for like, a year and a half. So we also had eclipses bouncing back and forth between Capricorn and Cancer for like, a year and a half as well.

LS: Right.

CB: So which was just emphasizing that sign in everybody’s chart even more. So you know, that’s what I mean when I say that sometimes transits can amplify things in terms of the Saturn return or put even more emphasis on that as being an important transit.

In other times, though, we should mention that sometimes they can put or bring the emphasis to other areas of the chart that have nothing to do with the Saturn return.

LS: And you’ll see that in some of the examples that we share where just any other simultaneous transits that are going on in other houses in the chart will be brought into the Saturn return experience and sometimes become kind of more important or more crystalizing to that several year period than they would be otherwise if they were not simultaneous to the Saturn return.

CB: Yeah. Exactly. So like, a major Uranus transit through a house or something like that.

LS: Right. And I wanna say with the profections emphasizing or not as emphasizing some of those things, just we’re not gonna be able to touch on this today, but any other timelord techniques also are brought in timelord periods, because I’ve noticed that can make a huge difference in people’s Saturn returns, depending on what’s completely separately going on in their zodiacal releasing, for instance, if they’re like, in a major career period or not or things like that.

CB: Right.

LS: Yeah. So just something to keep in mind that there are other factors as well.

CB: Definitely. All right. Let me cycle through some of the other images I had. Oh yeah, this is when like, those transits went exact in the Capricorn transits with Jupiter hitting Pluto and Mars hitting Saturn and everything else in the spring. June, July – there’s that eclipse that occurred in Capricorn on the 5th of July, which was one of the last of the Capricorn eclipses. There was one previously in December of 2019. There’s the Saturn-Pluto conjunction when it went exact at the beginning of 2020, although it got pretty close earlier in 2019 in the middle of 2019, and then it came back and got pretty close again in the late summer, early fall of 2020.

All right. So are we – is that good for review?

LS: Yeah. And I wanted to say just on that last note, so we give kudos to you – the Saturn in Capricorn people – because you had quite a lot additional emphasizing your Saturn return. Pluto thrown in there, eclipses in the same signs – that’s not always the case in other Saturn return signs.

CB: Yeah. And then even the Mars retrograde this year in Aries which then squared Saturn —

LS: Yeah.

CB: That was a good time. So all right. So Saturn return in Capricorn – let’s get into this. Let’s mention the dates really quickly of what timeframe we were talking about.

So Saturn first moved back into Capricorn for the first time in almost 30 years December 19th of 2017. So for all intents and purposes, that is the day that your Saturn return began, broadly speaking, December of 2017. And Saturn is getting ready to leave Capricorn for the final time this month on December 16th of 2020. And for all intents and purposes for most of you, that is basically when your Saturn return will end, whether you have Saturn in the beginning, the middle, or the end of the sign.

I should mention that being said, some people, if that have Saturn in the extremely late degrees – like, let’s say 28, 29 degrees of Capricorn – then there might be a little bit of carryover when Saturn retrogrades back and gets close to early Aquarius again. I don’t remember how early it goes this time; it may not go that far.

LS: Yeah, I actually don’t either.

CB: But sometimes for the people that have Saturn either in like, the last few degrees or the first few degrees of the sign, there can be some carryover, especially if Saturn gets within three degrees of that placement. That can like, extend your Saturn return for a little bit.

LS: Yeah.

CB: But that being said, for the most part, these are your dates of your Saturn return. It’s December of 2017 through December of 2020 for those that have it with Saturn in Capricorn.

All right. So yeah, I guess we’ve talked about all – the only thing we haven’t talked about is that the very first Saturn return people, one of the things that complicated it – the people that were born in the late 1980s through the early 1990s – do you actually have the dates on that? What was —

LS: I don’t have them right here, but basically all the people who are going through their first Saturn – or have been going through their first Saturn return in Capricorn – right now had this stellium of Neptune, Uranus, and Saturn in the sign.

CB: Right. Yeah. So Uranus and Neptune met up with Saturn in Capricorn in the late ‘80s and early 1990s. And so one of the things that was interesting about hearing a lot of these first Saturn return stories over the past three years was just seeing that it wasn’t just Saturn in its natal position that was being activated, but also Neptune was being activated when Saturn returned and started conjoining the natal Neptune, and Uranus was being activated at the same time.

LS: Right.

CB: So there were some Neptunian themes involving on the one hand, like, one extreme was idealism that I saw that were very prominent at different points. And then on another extreme, sometimes like, escapism was sometimes a challenge or an issue when the Neptune piece was getting activated, which sometimes was people would struggle with things like drug or alcohol issues —

LS: Right.

CB: — surrounding that. And then there was also the Uranus themes of like, sudden radical changes or needs for independence —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — and different things like that.

LS: Definitely. So it’s a little bit more complicated than just a straight Saturn return. I mean, on the one hand, I don’t wanna make it sound totally abnormal in that like, it’s common that there’s something in aspect to Saturn. But this was sort of an unusual stellium that everyone had from that whole period for the first Saturn return people, instead of just like, a few months or something.

CB: Yeah. I mean, that was pretty unique having —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — all those outer planets there, and it brought a different character to the first Saturn return stories that we were seeing, I think, especially.

LS: Right.

CB: And then there were some people that just like, if you then had anything else in Capricorn, then you were already dealing with like, a mega stellium at that point.

LS: Yeah. Which we do have some of.

CB: Which we have some examples of.

So why don’t we – is it time to get into those?

LS: Yeah, I think so. Let’s see. So that first example here – let’s see. Do you wanna trade off reading?

CB: Yeah. Should I read first?

LS: Yeah, why don’t you go ahead.

CB: All right. So our first example was by our friend Diana Rose Harper, who was on the podcast earlier this year. And I’m trying to remember really quickly what episode number, but I can’t remember what episode number that was. But everybody really liked that episode. So you can check that out on the Astrology Podcast website as well as on the YouTube channel.

So Diana’s an astrologer, and she sent us this email. This is her chart, so the parts that are important that I’m just emphasizing here is just that she has Capricorn rising – her Ascendant’s in Capricorn – and her Saturn is in Capricorn. So Saturn is in the first whole sign house or the first house in general. And it rules both the first house as well as the second house.

So one of the things we’re gonna keep coming back to is just what are the significations of the house that Saturn is located in, as well as the other house that Saturn rules? In this instance, the first house, which Saturn is located in, is the house that signifies things like self and ideas of “who am I” and selfhood and other things like that, which seems kind of abstract. But when people start going through their Saturn returns, that starts taking on really concrete meanings.

LS: Right.

CB: Which we’ll hear about in a moment. Self, body, the physical body, and sometimes things dealing with its upkeep or changes with the physical body. First house also has to do with character, and it also has to do with one’s appearance.

LS: So identity or self-presentation often become big pieces of the first house Saturn return.

CB: Yeah. In terms of the second house, which it’s gonna rule for her – she has Capricorn rising – that’s the house that signifies things like finances, possessions, and income.

All right. So there’s the chart. So here’s the story that Diana sent into me yesterday I wanna read really quickly. So it says, “The most notable thing about my Saturn return involves my birth time revelation. In March of 2018, March 20th to be exact, a few months after Saturn entered Capricorn, I came across a copy of my birth certificate while searching for my voter registration, and therefore found my actual birth time. Up until that point, I’d been going off of my mom’s guesstimation of ‘between 9:15 and 9:30 AM,’ and had decided for myself that 9:18 AM was great since it made me a Sagittarius Ascendant, and Sag rising sounded so much more fun than Capricorn rising and meant that I would be a ‘quadruple Sag’ with Sun, Moon, and Mercury and the Ascendant all in that sign. However, my actual birth time – 9:28 AM – pushed my Ascendant into the first degree of Capricorn, therefore altering my entire chart and making what I thought was a 2nd house Saturn return into a first house Saturn return with my first major Saturn story requiring a total reconfiguration of my self-concept through the lens of astrology.”

So there’s some of those first house themes already. You’re shaking your head?

LS: Right, yeah. That’s kind of perfect. Just like, identity is always a first house thing.

CB: Yeah. Definitely. All right, so it goes on. Diana says, “Fortunately, I had a consult booked with Kelly Surtees already, and so a little less than a month later, I had her help in a further settling into my ‘new identity’ as a Capricorn rising. As I’ve described in the past, the process of acclimating to my accurate birth chart was like taking off a slightly too small and slightly too itchy sweater. You don’t realize that you’re uncomfortable until you’ve removed it, but once you’ve released from those confines – hi, yes, Saturn, day chart Saturn return – there’s much more room to breathe within a new reality.”

She continues on in her final paragraph and says, “A month or so after my consult with Kelly was the United Astrology Conference 2018 in Chicago, my first astrology conference which interestingly I didn’t register for until after Saturn had moved into Capricorn.” So that would have been just a few months before it. “That conference remains a key turning point in terms of my vocational work as an astrologer now. One of the biggest shifts that happened for me at that conference is another identity-related thing. The new friends I met there reflected back to me very strongly and in no uncertain terms how much I already knew about astrology and the talent/skill I have at synthesizing and translating astrological information. It might be relevant to say that at the time, Jupiter – the ruler of my Sun, Moon, Mercury – was in my Scorpio 11th house very near to my natal Mars. Because of their encouragement, I became brave enough to identify as an astrologer, not just as an astrology enthusiast or astrology student. Claiming that title opened the door to what has become a sustainable astrological practice. I’m now in a position where I’m earning a livable income in a way that is intimately tied into the specific modality that facilitated this identity shift, which is a pretty perfect summation of a first house Saturn return where Saturn also rules the 2nd house with Saturn in rulership in a day chart. Isn’t it wild how astrology is like, real or something? Smiley face.”

LS: Right!

CB: Actually, a winking smiley face.

LS: So yeah, that’s a really perfect example of a first house Saturn return with major identity shifts of who you think you are, and that pulling in how you make a living, which is a 2nd house theme.

CB: Yeah. So we get the primary focus on the first house of self, first house concepts of self and who am I, and also how astrologers see themselves, because that’s something you’ve been talking about recently is just sometimes if an astrologer changes house systems, for example, it can coincide with a major shift in one’s sense of self-perception. Or if you, in this instance, find out that you were born at a different time, suddenly —

LS: Right.

CB: — that changes how you’re perceiving your life and your sense of selfhood.

LS: Definitely. And I really liked also how she included that Jupiter was simultaneously transiting the 11th house, because that became more important than perhaps it would be otherwise because it was simultaneous to the Saturn return, which is something we were talking about earlier.

CB: Right. Yeah. So that was really good. And then also the 2nd house things and just some of those themes having to do with the transformation of the self or shift in self-perception also enabled her to move forward more in terms of her career, making astrology her primary income as a professional astrologer.

LS: Yeah. Definitely. So that’s a great example, kind of perfect, textbook.

CB: Yeah. Definitely.

All right. So let’s move on. So we were gonna try to spend like, 10 minutes per house. We have like, an ambitious line-up of —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — charts. We’ll see how many we can actually get through in a reasonable amount of time. All right —

LS: Okay.

CB: — let’s go onto the next —

LS: Let’s go onto the next one? Okay. So the next slide is another Capricorn rising, Saturn in the first and ruling the first and the second. And – go ahead.

CB: And we’re gonna show charts. We’re not gonna do names, I don’t think, from this point forward except on some celebrity charts, just because we were – everybody – some people asked to have their names withheld. Most people didn’t. But there was some ambiguity about some of that, so just to be safe, we’re not gonna mention any names. But we’re just gonna show the charts without birth data, but just with the positions listed. And for the audio listeners, we’re going to sort of read out some of the relevant placements as we talk about them. Okay.

LS: Right. So this is gonna be another Capricorn rising, Saturn in the first ruling first and second. So her email – it’s a little bit lengthy to read, but is all really contentful. “Through my Saturn return, I passed through six jobs, two educational programs, and moved across the country in a global pandemic. But the real disruption of Saturn was internal. I tried out several different ideological identities, and my calling to work in ministry was examined from every possible angle, refined, and renewed. Saturn brought me to an understanding of all the systems I navigate in my life and what I have believed about myself from each of them. I have always carried an enormous pressure of perfectionism, needing to feel like I am good, right, and responsible. The issue, of course, which is that I had many external environments by which I judge myself, each with their own values and conflicting judgments.”

And this is bringing in, as my interjection here, people often – this is pretty common for any Saturn return, no matter where it’s placed, like, reevaluating what you believe instead of external judgments or external rules, that kind of thing. Now, that’s amped up even further because this is Saturn in the first with identity, but you can hear some of those general points as well.

So returning to her email, “During this season, I started a college ministry for the church I worked at. Also began a lengthy process of being ordained as an episcopal priest. Ended that process in the diocese where I began because of a misalignment in values and vision for the church theologically and structurally, and began the process again on the West Coast in a new diocese. With the onset of the pandemic, I lost all of my sources of income – ministry, teaching yoga, and bartending all involve gathering people and were no longer viable. I wound up spending the majority of 2020 in solitude, prayer, and reflection.” So you can hear the 2nd house rulership coming in there too, and that was actually also coming in with Saturn I think dipped into Aquarius in the spring, early summer, there.

“During Saturn’s brief move into Aquarius, I landed a summer internship as a hospital chaplain in the city where I dreamed of living for years, San Diego, and I was met with open doors, and I am once again on track to ordained ministry, though the progress came slowly and with a great deal more effort when Saturn retrograded again. I’ve had a complete redesign of my self-concept, my direction in life, and I’ve separated from the deeply rooted messaging about success, discipline, and responsibility that I’ve received from multiple contexts throughout my life. I can say with more confidence than ever that I am my own authority. I know I have a unique path of leadership before me, and I now have the courage and confidence to take it.”

So I loved that write-up just because it was so evocative of those kind of first Saturn return themes even in general of like, becoming your own authority and that sort of thing.

CB: Right.

LS: And taking responsibility for your own life and your own decisions, but also particularly with it being in the first house, her own identity and particularly those reevaluations in her example were tied into religious, ideological beliefs, and you can see in her chart she has Mercury just a couple degrees off the Ascendant there also in Capricorn. She has a big Capricorn stellium in the first house. And Mercury rules the 9th house, and the 9th house has to do with religion, philosophy, belief systems.

CB: Yeah. And her Moon is actually there in —

LS: Yes.

CB: — the 9th house in Virgo.

LS: Right. So there’s two different things emphasizing 9th house things being more focal to her life, but also to her identity per se, because that’s right on her Ascendant.

CB: It looks like the Moon actually has a close classical reception —

LS: It does.

CB: — with Mercury because it’s at 20 Virgo and it’s applying to a trine with Mercury which is its ruler.

LS: Exactly. Yes, it does. So there’s a really strong 9th house theme here in addition to the first, but it’s tied into first house themes. So it’s not separate. It’s like, who am I, what do I believe, what are my belief systems and therefore what am I doing in my life is very tied to reevaluating where am I religiously aligned and so forth, ideologically aligned.

CB: Yeah. And that’s one of the issues then in terms of that complicates further in terms of the actual interpretation of Saturn returns is Saturn, when it starts hitting planets in – if there are other natal planets in the Saturn return sign, it’s gonna activate those planets in their house placement there, but it’s also gonna bring into account some of the houses that they rule. So the fact that Mercury rules the 9th house of like, religion, philosophy, and beliefs and other things like that, and it’s in her first house makes that an intimate part of her Saturn return story. So it’s not just the houses that Saturn rules, but if there are other planets in that sign, it’s gonna bring in other things as well, which is why stelliums become even more important because it’s not just packing that house or that sign with the quality of those planets, but it’s also importing a bunch of significations from other houses into that sign at the same time.

LS: Definitely. And I noticed also even though she didn’t sort of – she wasn’t as explicit about it, there is a fairly close Mars square here from the 4th, and to that Mercury, and I was just thinking about that in terms of the description of the running into misalignment of values with the particular church she was involved with and having to redo that. And while she didn’t say it in very conflict-laden words, I imagine that’s not a super easy thing if you feel like you’re on one path and it involves something so personal as values.

CB: Yeah. And this was – we should point out that this was a day chart Saturn, so this was another one of those. Like, started off a little rocky, ran into some major obstacles and difficulties, not to downplay that but ultimately comes out of it stronger and wiser and everything else in a positive way.

So we’re gonna try and alternate, because some of the stories, you know, are gonna be more difficult, and some of the positioning is not gonna be as easy necessarily. But we wanted to start off with two relatively constructive examples.

LS: Right. So those are both really classic day chart examples where you kind of, you know, run into issues you have to grapple with, sometimes even big feeling issues, but by the end of it you feel fairly good and you feel like you got to the other side, and you’re like, excited to move onto the next chapter.

CB: Yeah. Which is not to say – and since these are summaries, if we were actually talking to these people, we might hear more of the obstacles and challenges and setbacks. And also because they’re on the other end of it where they’re coming out of it and winding down, like, you’re kind of doing – you’re in the like, victory lap phase —

LS: Yes.

CB: — by this point, especially for like, this person where the exact Saturn return was much earlier in the sign, so it was probably much more —

LS: Right.

CB: — intense earlier on —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — to some extent. Additionally, earlier in the spring when I put out a call for Saturn return stories, I asked people to send in videos, but not as many people sent in videos as I was expecting, so I didn’t end up going that route and instead ended up sending out a second call for emails and ended up focusing on that. There were a few videos that were sent in that we didn’t get to use because we changed the format, so apologize for those that did send them in. But yeah, we just didn’t receive as many as we would have liked. Because originally I thought hearing from a person directly their Saturn return is much more evocative than —

LS: Right.

CB: — hearing a sort of synopsis or summary of it that’s presented in a lecture or something like that.

LS: True. Yeah.

CB: All right. So let’s move onto the next. We’re making good time!

LS: Okay!

CB: Let’s keep moving.

LS: Keep moving. Okay. So the next one I believe is a celebrity example, right? Or a famous person example?

CB: Let me see. So here’s the – oh yeah. So we’re gonna back up, because now I’ve got some 12th house examples because it’s one of the tricky things, right, about the Saturn in Capricorn ones is those two houses being like, right next to each other so that the Capricorn rising people have Saturn ruling the first and second, but the Aquarius rising people where Saturn in traditional astrology rules both Capricorn and Aquarius, Aquarius rising people have Saturn in the 12th. So we’re actually gonna do some of our 12th house examples first. And some of the traditional associations with the 12th house are – it’s one of the most difficult houses, so it tends to be associated with things like traditionally enemies, sickness, loss, and seclusion or isolation and places of isolation. What are some other significations?

LS: I mean, those are pretty big categories. So sickness sometimes. Sometimes more like, mental health issues can come in the 12th, or mental health challenges. You know, even if they’re not like, full-blown disorders. But also sometimes physical – especially chronic physical – things can go there as well.

CB: Yeah. Isolation, places of isolation, places like hospitals. Sometimes —

LS: Prisons.

CB: — jails or prisons.

LS: Like rehab facilities, things of that nature.

CB: Like monasteries or like —

LS: Ashrams.

CB: — ashrams or something.

LS: Yeah, which the commonality there is things that are secluded away from everyday society where you’re kind of tucked away rather than in the main of everything of everyday life.

CB: Yeah. All right. So let me see how our first celebrity example – oh right, okay. So the first celebrity example, which I’ve already mentioned a few months ago on a forecast episode, was Obama because one of the things that I thought was funny that I started seeing now that Saturn I think today – let me put the chart of the moment up. Is this more or less accurate?

LS: Yeah. I think so.

CB: Is it? Yeah.

LS: It should be.

CB: Okay. So we started under Taurus rising. So Saturn you can see is at 29 degrees, so we’re like, at the very end of Saturn in Capricorn right now. It’s getting ready to leave and go into Aquarius in the next week or so.

LS: Yeah.

CB: A lot of the like, Saturn in Capricorn people that are just finishing up their Saturn returns are like, reflecting on that, and sometimes you can see visible instances of them going through and finishing up this introspective, reflective phase of closing down a huge chapter of their life after 30 years and beginning to open a new one, because some of the like, the celebrities, for example, are publishing memoirs where they’re going back and looking at their life. And —

LS: Right.

CB: — I saw two instances of that with two examples I wanted to mention here briefly. One of them is Barack Obama who published a memoir that just came out in the past few weeks where I think he focused on his first term in office, especially from 2008 to 2012, and then the other one that we’ll look at after that is Michael J. Fox who also published a memoir at the same time.

All right, so here’s Obama’s chart. He has Aquarius rising with Saturn in Capricorn, 25 degrees of Capricorn in the 12th whole sign house. His Descendant’s at 18 Leo and his Sun is at 12, but I’ve had this ambiguity over whether he’s a day or night chart for a number of years, and I’m currently leaning towards it actually being more of a day chart. But there’s arguments either way.

LS: Yeah, there are, because usually that’s a little bit further below the Descendant than we see night charts acting like.

CB: Right.

LS: But his Saturn, even though you would expect some constructiveness because it’s in its own sign, and then he also has a benefic in the first, it still sometimes seems like, a little too constructive for a night chart, and so that’s been the dilemma.

CB: Yeah. So for this Saturn return, a few points – one of the main ones is just in addition to writing a memoir, which is a funny looking back type thing, his Saturn is in the 12th. And Saturn, of course, went into Capricorn in December of 2017, so that was only a little less than or about a year into Trump’s presidency. And it’s interesting seeing that theme, the 12th house being one of his main themes, because of course Trump and Obama are famously like, enemies, and Trump’s original rise to political influence about a decade ago was initially through spreading the conspiracy theory that Obama was born in Kenya and wasn’t born in the United States and therefore wasn’t qualified to be president.

So what ended up happening, then, of course, is in the 2016 presidential election a year before Obama’s Saturn return began, his former Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, famously lost the election to Trump. Trump, Obama’s let’s say enemy, then comes into office, and kind of spent most of his presidency deliberately deconstructing a lot of the things, a lot of the orders that Obama had put into place, especially many of the executive orders because he wasn’t able to get Congress to cooperate on various things, so he ended up doing a lot of things through executive orders that could be easily undone by the next president who happened to be Trump, who happened to be like, almost sworn enemy of some sort.

So much of his Saturn return story over the past four years must have been watching literally one of his enemies attempt to destroy everything that he had built up during that eight-year period prior to that, which is a really interesting manifestation of that classical signification of the 12th house as one of the places of enemies.

LS: Right. And I think sometimes people initially feel like “enemies” is too strong a word to use, but —

CB: Right.

LS: And it’s true that not all of us have like, sworn enemies, you know, to that level. But it is also true that it happens more when there’s 12th house stuff going on natally, that it becomes more of a theme for some of those people, at least, if it’s not manifested in some other 12th house way. And this does seem like a great example of that, where it’s – you know, Trump is kind of known for actually like, deliberating trying to dismantle what Obama built, which is both interesting in terms of a 12th house enemy thing but also in terms of a Saturn thing. Like, your legacy. Like, things you have built up slowly and painstakingly over time and you hope to at least outlast you for some measure of time.

CB: Right.

LS: Yeah, it’s kind of perfect.

CB: Yeah. So there’s that, and then you know, the flipside of that then over the past few months and the very end of his Saturn return story was that then his friend and former vice president, Joe Biden, went up against Trump towards the very end of Saturn in Capricorn, and ending up winning the 2020 presidential election and now is about to replace Trump. So that there was almost this reversal that happened, interestingly, by the end of the Saturn return story, which is that suddenly Obama almost was able to flip the tables and ended up – like, I think about some of the old delineations about Saturn in the 12th and like, Paulus Alexandrinus in the 4th century have to do with Saturn in the 12th and overcoming one’s enemies or something like that as one of his actual delineations. And it’s interesting seeing that, because the other part of that was during the early years – and really during most of Trump’s presidency over the past four years – Obama, you know, he gave those speeches as he was on the way out. But then he actually delineated disappeared and like, was not out giving speeches or was not doing things very publicly for most of the past four years, which is an interesting additional 12th house manifestation of sort of seeking seclusion or isolation in some sense —

LS: Right.

CB: — where he went from being the most or one of the most powerful and eminent and prominent men in the world to suddenly kind of disappearing while Trump was doing things, because Obama was trying to for a time, at least, at the beginning not engage him on stuff or not rile him up or something, I guess.

LS: Right. So disappearing, sort of being in seclusion, not being in the public eye is a very 12th house thing. And you’ll often see that with any transits where they go through the 11th first, which is a much more social house, and then you get the 12th and it’s withdrawal —

CB: Yeah.

LS: — from the public eye.

CB: Withdrawing from the public. And that’s something that we’ll see come up in some of our other examples.

So but then towards the end of that, of course, he famously started reversing that starting this fall especially. Especially actually around the time of September when Saturn stationed direct at about 25 degrees and started moving forward at its final pass, he started doing a bunch of series of going out and giving political speeches at rallies in order to support Biden’s presidential aspirations. And he ended up playing the role of like, suddenly and somewhat uncharacteristically for him up to that point, like, attacking very strongly in very strong words Trump. So then going on to almost like, the attack of one’s enemies.

LS: It’s interesting. So this is a really good example that ties in both the first house of your identity and pulls that together with 12th house themes of, you know, that having an enemy is somehow tied to a piece of your identity, even if that’s not what you’re consciously seeking in any way.

CB: Right.

So I’m sure there were other themes that are relevant, but those are the two main things that I wanted to mention is just the theme of enemies and the theme of having one’s earlier efforts undone, but also that period he went through clearly of going into a greater sense of seclusion than the previous decade or two of his life.

LS: Right.

CB: And then coming out of that recently to some extent, yeah.

LS: Definitely.

CB: Good example of both like, early Saturn return versus late Saturn return, as well as for him, with Saturn being at 25, the later part of that perhaps being a bit more crucial towards the end here.

LS: Yeah. That’s interesting.

CB: But also how sometimes at the beginning, some of the issues come up, and they don’t get fully resolved until the very end of the transit.

LS: Definitely, which is very common regardless of the degree of Saturn.

CB: Yeah. All right. Let’s move onto our next example —

LS: Okay.

CB: Our next celebrity chart example, which was very similar because he was born kind of around a similar timeframe, and that’s Michael J. Fox, who was also born with Aquarius rising and Saturn in late Capricorn in the 12th whole sign house. But the difference with his chart is he has the Sun in Gemini, so it’s very firmly below the horizon, so this is definitely a night chart. So we get some of the more challenging sort of significations of Saturn.

So I think you and I had both used his birth chart as an example in the past, because he famously during his first Saturn return, he was a famous actor that was in a famous television series, and it was also he was in the Back to the Future trilogy, which are very famous movies in the 1980s. But then when he hit his Saturn return, I think it was like, the day that he turned 28 or 29, he ended up – his hand was twitching uncontrollably, and he ended up going through a series of tests and then being diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease.

LS: Right.

CB: And then he ended up, as a result of that, having to pull back and basically retire from acting for a period of time over the course of his early Saturn return and subsequent to his Saturn return.

LS: Right. And then during his Saturn cycle – I mean, so you can see from just the first Saturn return that that was a night chart example, right? Sort of the more challenging Ascendant ruler being placed in the 12th being Saturn in a night chart of chronic illness, basically, and something that’s kind of like, not in your control to persevere through or to sort of overcome.

CB: Yeah.

LS: I mean, yeah. That’s the way to say it.

CB: And it was a major thing that he had to deal with and cope with, but it also set up – that first Saturn return set up – the next 30 years of his life.

LS: Right.

CB: And then there was this long story and sort of story arc over the next 30 years of him learning how to deal with Parkinson’s and trying different treatments, and then eventually at some point he made a comeback to acting, and he started acting again for a while and had a sort of renaissance or resurgence as an actor. But then recently in the news, he released in the past few months he released another memoir where he announced that he was gonna retire from acting again because his health had gone into a downturn. And so he was gonna have to basically make a second retirement from acting at this point in his life.

LS: Right. So it’s an interesting repetition of the first Saturn return certainly with health being worse at that point in time, rather than in between. He also released another memoir, and he had actually released others before. Like one famously was called Lucky Man wherein he said he still felt really lucky because of his family and his wife’s unending support and things like that, and you can see other reasons in the chart why those would be kind of more strong topics with the nice exalted Moon-Venus conjunction in the 4th house of family. But I know, and I wish I had the quote for this, because I know that when I saw an interview with him, and he was basically saying can you still say all those things? Because he had such hardships again during his second Saturn return with health downturns. And he was like, can you really – are you that optimistic? Can you really say, “I still feel lucky?” And he eventually said yes, he could, but in a much more sort of measured, sober way, which was like, you wake up the next day and you do the best you can. And I wish I had the exact quote here, but it was much more Saturnian. And I sort of appreciated that difference of like, you know, it’s easier in between when you’ve gotten past sort of an acute period of something to say like, “I learned so much from that.” You know, when things are good and I feel grateful, which is always still can be true, but I appreciated his sort of acknowledgement of like, that this was also hard, but he still felt like he could be optimistic but in a more Saturnian measured way.

CB: Yeah. So that’s just an example of the range of significations, and that’s one of the things we’re gonna be doing here is trying to show different examples to show you different manifestations of the houses. And while there may be some similarities to the Saturn return in general or to certain – if you have it in certain houses and certain commonalities between them, there’s also a range of different experiences of both types of experiences as well as like, qualities of constructive versus destructive in some sense. But showing people the range of that and still keeping an eye on some of the commonalities, I guess, is what we’re shooting for here.

LS: Yeah, definitely. So these are still examples, and even if you have similar placements, it’s not gonna go exactly the same, so that’s something to keep in mind.

CB: Yeah. All right, so let’s keep moving.

LS: I was thinking maybe we could use the next few at the end? What do you think? This is where we get into lots of 12th house still.

CB: I mean, I liked this one, so I’d like to use at least one example or two really quickly of non-celebrity 12th house examples.

LS: Sure. Okay.

So the next one – let’s see. Put it up here. The next one was a listener submitted one. This is Saturn ruling the first in the 12th. And —

CB: So Aquarius rising.

LS: Yeah, so Aquarius rising, right. And so this is going to be a first and 12th house signification one. And the person wrote, “For the past two years, I have focused heavily on my sobriety and mental health. In the beginning, it was such a struggle, but I am now more confident in myself than ever before. My sobriety is now such a large part of my life, but I feel as if the last three years were only the beginning and that I have so much more to accomplish in this lifetime. Sidenote: I began to share my sobriety publicly via social media towards the end of 2018, started my own sobriety podcast at the beginning of 2020.” And so that’s a really great one in terms of he said – or they said, I’m not sure if it’s a he or she – they said mental health, which is a 12th house thing sometimes. And then also sobriety. And I see issues with substance use or trying to get a more responsible handle on substance use come up sometimes when there are pieces of first house, 5th, 6th, or 12th. I don’t know if those are the ones you’ve seen, but those are the ones that I’ve seen when alcohol or substance use comes up a lot for different reasons.

CB: Usually especially 6th and 12th are the ones I see the most.

LS: Yeah. I’ve seen first, 5th, 6th, 12th, because the first is your body, so things that you do related to your body. The 12th can be self-undoing behaviors, although it’s certainly other topics as well.

CB: Yeah, like things that one does that detracts from oneself or undoes, which is funny because it has a double meaning of your detractors, which can objectively be like, your “enemies” —

LS: Right.

CB: — in the Obama example, but then it can also sometimes be because it’s connected with and it’s drawing away from the first house it can be ways in which one undermines or detracts from one’s own either mental or physical wellbeing, and sometimes addiction issues can be one manifestation of that.

LS: Right, exactly. So that’s a pretty perfect example of that. And the extra little piece that I appreciated was the sobriety podcast towards the end of the Saturn return, because this person has both the Sun and Mercury in the 3rd house of communications. And I’ve actually seen a lot when transits go through the 3rd or to the ruler of the 3rd, people starting podcasts. So anyway, this is the Saturn return was tightly square Mercury, the planet of communication in the 3rd house, which can also be about communication topics. So I love that the Saturn return brought in talking about the topic of the house placement – the 12th house placement – which was the addiction and sobriety. But then speaking about it publicly, which is the 3rd house tie-in.

CB: Yeah. And also earlier in the Saturn return, Saturn itself is at 25 degrees of Capricorn, but we see Neptune at 14 degrees of Capricorn and Uranus at nine degrees of Capricorn. So those would have been activated earlier in the transit as well and like, a transiting Saturn conjunct Neptune – you know, I could see how that would, could be a period where struggling with something like sobriety or wanting to not be fully in touch with reality or the tension between reality and non-reality being heightened.

LS: Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, and we’ll see that in a bunch of different charts here with the first Saturn returns.

CB: It also brings up another complicating factor that we could introduce at this point that we’re not gonna get into much here, but it’s relevant in terms of studying the Saturn return as the start of a new 30-year cycle and then realizing that it basically just lays the seeds or the foundations for some things that are gonna grow and develop over the next 30 years is that when Saturn – because this is a good example of that – when Saturn goes through Capricorn in this chart example, it’s not just hitting those three Capricorn planets of Uranus, Neptune, and Saturn. It’s also making a hard aspect with the Sun and Mercury in Aries in the 3rd house, Jupiter and the Moon in Cancer in the 6th house, and there’s no placements there but the other hard aspect it would make is to Libra in the 9th house.

So I mention that because every seven years approximately, Saturn will go through one of those signs and it will make a hard aspect back to its natal position. And those tend to be the important turning points when there is a further development in the Saturn return story that’s important and notable when Saturn makes hard aspects back to its natal position. So paying attention during the Saturn return itself to what planets it’s aspecting in the other signs by hard aspect, by a square or opposition is really important, because it sets up a sequence then that you’re gonna see play out over the next 30 years in some way.

LS: Right. Just repeating themes with all those topics over and over.

CB: Right. So it went through the 12th house here, but then when it goes through the 3rd house eventually in seven years, it’ll aspect activate some of those topics and it’ll aspect all the other planets in the other cardinal signs at the same time. Then seven years after that, it’ll go through Cancer and it’ll oppose Saturn in Capricorn, but it’ll also aspect all the other cardinal planets again. And then eventually when it goes through Libra, it’ll be, you know, another hard aspect, and then eventually she’ll hit the next Saturn return or the second Saturn return and close down that cycle and open up a new one.

LS: Yeah, definitely. So it’s an ongoing story. This is also why this one was such a good example for addiction or sobriety issues, because it actually brought in all four of those houses that I sometimes see connected to that, which is the ruler of the first in the 12th, and then opposing those two planets in the 6th house of habits, sometimes bodily habits, and then square the ruler of the 5th, which is that Mercury in the 3rd of communication – the 5th being sometimes things that we do for pleasure, which is why I see it sometimes brought in in terms of Saturnian responsibilities around that.

CB: Okay. Yeah. And also it’s just important in terms of the more modern starting to be more of a shift in understanding sometimes addiction as an illness or a type of illness that people struggle with and have to fight, rather than it always being something else – conceptualized as something else that’s more just like —

LS: Like willpower or something?

CB: Yeah, that’s —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — willful and is a choice —

LS: Right.

CB: — versus something where once a person gets locked into it, it’s something that undermines you that you have trouble fighting in the same way that somebody fights like, cancer or something like that.

LS: Right.

CB: Yeah.

LS: For sure.

CB: All right. Is that – that’s probably good for that example?

LS: That’s good for that example.

CB: All right. Let’s move onto our next example, and we’ll jump to the 2nd house and start a new series talking about the 2nd house and its significations. So here’s a little diagram for those watching the video version. The 2nd house signifies things like finances, possessions, and income primarily. And the first example chart I actually wanted to use is a celebrity chart, which is the chart of AOC, who we have a timed birth time for.

LS: Right. So otherwise known as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, but famously called AOC. So she has Sagittarius rising, Saturn in Capricorn in the 2nd house.

CB: Yeah, in a day chart with the Sun in Libra in the 11th. So day chart Saturn return with Saturn in the 2nd and ruling the 2nd house of finances and the 3rd house of communications, siblings, one’s neighborhood or neighbors, and she famously had one of the more like, interesting and impressive Saturn return stories over the past few years where she was basically – what was it, like, a bartender? And then she ended up deciding to run for Congress and ended up challenging I think in the primary she ended up challenging the sitting incumbent Democrat, and ended up actually winning and unseated him and went from being a bartender to suddenly being in Congress. And one of the things about that, of course, is that happened during the course of that three-year period for her between 2017 and 2020 is going from what I’m sure one of the major shifts for her would have been, not just how she makes her income, but also like, the sort of like, level of income at the same time.

LS: Definitely. One would assume that members of Congress do make quite a bit more than a bartender for their personal income.

CB: Yeah. And has things like health insurance are suddenly covered and other things like that are covered, so greater financial stability and greater earning power and things like that.

It’s also interesting because she tends to focus also sometimes on financial issues in terms of legislation and in terms of her politics and trying to push for coverage. Like, one of the things that she’s being very vocal about right now is like, the government needing to send out money for people due to the pandemic, due to people not being able to work and being forced not to work due to like, cities closing down and closing down basic things like restaurants and bars and things like that, and people being out of work but then also then not having an income, but the government so far only sent out like, one set of stimulus checks in the spring. But unlike other countries that have continued to send them, the US hasn’t.

LS: Right.

CB: That’s something she’s been pushing for, and financial matters seem to be one of her interests.

LS: Yeah, absolutely. And you can see in her chart, she actually has Jupiter ruling the Ascendant in a day chart placed in the other financial house – in the 8th house. And so not only does this help the Saturn return become even better because you have Jupiter in a day chart in aspect to Saturn – Saturn already being more constructive in a day chart, but Jupiter helping that even more. But you have both of the financial house, the whole financial axis is brought into the Saturn return. It is the 2nd house of personal income, and there’s also the 8th house of collective resources, shared resources, which also has to do with things like banking and loans and things like that. And I thought it was really notable that she’s not just vocal about financial topics, but pretty early on in her first term, she was named to the House Committee on Financial Services. And so that committee oversees things like banking, insurance, the US Treasury, Federal Reserve, et cetera, and those are all 8th house topics. And so you have both of those financial houses being emphasized, and you’ll see this in some charts too as a more general principle – sometimes the 2nd house can be one’s own personal resources or income, but sometimes it’s that the person in addition focuses on the topic of finance. And you have both of those going on here.

CB: Right. So she got into office in 2018, so that was around the time of pretty early on in her Saturn return of Saturn just moved into Capricorn in December of 2017, so that lines up pretty well. It’s also interesting – I mean, with Saturn ruling the 3rd house, it was like, her push to promote herself and promote her local neighborhood and politics and stuff and getting an upswelling of support in her neighborhood is part of what allowed her to do that. And it’s interesting tying in some of the 3rd house topics.

LS: Definitely. Yeah. That’s a nice point as well.

CB: And it’s kind of – because it’s weird, because sometimes the concept of one’s neighborhood or neighbors as a 3rd house topic seems very abstract and not applicable, but sometimes it actually comes in, becomes relevant in very concrete ways.

LS: Definitely. In her chart, she also has the square to the Libra planets – Mercury, Mars, and Sun in the 11th house – and I’m not gonna piece all of those out, but just noting that usually in day charts, the problematic area is the Mars. And so but she has interesting little interplays going on where the 11th house is still mitigated because it’s ruled by Venus, one of the benefics, placed in the first and so forth. So even though Mars is in a day chart in the 11th, there’s still some good coming out of it. And I think that what you see a lot with – since she was running and then elected to Congress – is sparring on social media has been like, actually a notable thing with her where people will try to attack her on social media who are politically opposed to her. But then she’s actually fairly adept at sparring. So anyway, it’s just interesting to see that in the chart, whereas like, social media is a thing for many people, but for some people, it’s more focal than others.

CB: Yeah. I mean, I also see that as an extension of Saturn ruling her 3rd house of communication and how Twitter and the use of Twitter as part of her platform in order to get her message out and how she’s probably during the course of her Saturn return through the 2nd and then there will be a continuation of that through the 3rd one’s message and ability to communicate one’s message maturing and becoming more mature and maybe having setbacks or like, running into obstacles. Or maybe there were some things where she said something and maybe it wasn’t the best way to put that, or maybe she would regret saying that, but each time, she would learn something from it and sort of build on it. I would see that as part of that Saturn return theme as well and then —

LS: Yeah.

CB: Yeah, Mars in the 11th and tensions with those who are allies, because even now with the Democratic caucus, she tends to be more on the far – more on the further left than like, let’s say some of the modern Democrats. And so even after Biden’s recent win now, there’s already tensions there in the left wing of the party about what policies to push for and how hard to push and how far left to push versus how much to either push for moderate policies or to attempt to reach across the aisle to Republicans or what have you.

LS: Definitely. Yeah, that’s a great point as well. And it’s interesting. This is like, a broader thing to note and I think we’ve touched on it already, but just to emphasize that everyone who has Saturn in Capricorn, you’re kind of getting a headstart on that two-house spectrum. So you’re already doing things with the Aquarius house.

CB: Right.

LS: And you’re just gonna keep doing them, but probably be better at them as it goes through Aquarius then after this because you will have already been working on at least some pieces of that throughout the Saturn transit through Capricorn.

CB: Yeah. It’ll be a continuation of those themes, and you’ll leave behind some of the Capricorn themes to some extent. But they’ll be perhaps possibly an intensification of some of the Aquarius themes.

LS: Right.

CB: And we’ll talk about this more at the end, but there should have been a preview of that already when Saturn dipped into Aquarius for a few months between March and early July of 2020 of what some of those Aquarius themes will be. So that’s a little tricky. We have to pay attention to here where some people may already see manifestations of some of that in people’s lives because it’s dipped into that other sign this year.

LS: True. Although I think the rulership still does that as well to some extent, but you’re just kind of getting two different reasons for that right now.

CB: Right, yeah, definitely. All right, so that’s good; I didn’t wanna dwell on that very long. I just thought it was – well, it was one of the more impressive constructive stories of like, not fully – like, I don’t wanna overplay that, but kind of like a rags to riches story. Yeah, I don’t know a better —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — analogy to make because it wasn’t obviously completely like that, because she wasn’t like, destitute and suddenly became a billionaire or something like that, but —

LS: But it’s a big jump up.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah. And I mean, maybe that’s a piece of the Uranus as well. I mean, you know, the sort —

CB: Yeah.

LS: — of abruptness?

CB: Oh, no – that’s a really great point. So we have the abruptness and the suddenness, and the sort of revolutionary like, overthrowing of an established incumbent that was a surprise to people —

LS: Right.

CB: — through somewhat kind of what seemed like somewhat unique or not avant-garde. Like, what’s the term —

LS: Like, not revolutionary per se, but something like, one rung under that.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah.

CB: But then also the Neptune there, which is something I’ve seen in other areas but it’s very relevant here – I’m glad you mentioned that – about the idealism. Like, there being higher minded sort of ideals that one attempts to manifest during the course of their Saturn return, especially and that they attempt to bring into reality in concrete form. Like I remember we had some meeting a few years ago where we were going over Saturn return examples with our local astrology group, and that kept coming up as a theme. And there was one person that had it in like, the 4th house or something, and part of their thing was building like, community housing —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — or something like that where it was part of her ideal surrounding people should have free access to a home and living space and people shouldn’t have to be homeless that was driving her to implement that in a very concrete way —

LS: Right.

CB: — through Saturn in the 4th house.

LS: Right. And that is a unique thing with this batch of Saturn returns, of people born in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s, is Neptune and Uranus are brought in and not only Saturn only. And so you do still get a heavy does of the Saturn, but there’s the Neptune which can either be like, in some of the other instances you were mentioning earlier, escapism or something or not wanting to be in reality, but there’s also the idealism and Neptune in Capricorn in particular is just a really interesting placement I’ve noticed in terms of like, wanting to bring that ideal into reality rather than leaving it as a dream or a daydream because it’s in Capricorn and it’s ruled by Saturn. So you actually wanna —

CB: Yeah.

LS: — make it real.

CB: Gotta do something with that.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Yeah. That’s pretty good. All right, so that’s a good example, and we’ll continue – I mean, that’s literally just her first Saturn return. So this —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — is also setting the stage for the next 30 years, and it’ll be really interesting to see especially when she hits in seven-year increments when Saturn goes through Aries and squares that natal position and Saturn will check in, and it’ll say like, “How is that going?” That new foundation that you initiated during your Saturn return with those 2nd house placements, and also in connection to the other cardinal placements of the 5th, 8th, and 11th. There’ll be like, a check-in every seven years about how that’s going and a further development of that story.

LS: Right.

CB: All right. So let’s move to our next – oh yeah, I wanted to contrast that just really quickly because I thought it was funny with a similar example of somebody also interestingly who has Sagittarius rising and Saturn in Capricorn, which is Warren Buffet.

LS: And Jupiter ruling the Ascendant in Cancer in the 8th – both of them do!

CB: Cancer in the 8th, yeah. Well, conjunct Pluto.

LS: Yeah, conjunct Pluto’s different!

CB: Which is funny, because the Jupiter-Pluto conjunctions, of course, we’ve talked about a lot this year and one of the things they tend to have to do with is acquiring large amounts of wealth —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — and extreme instances of wealth.

LS: Big money. Yeah.

CB: So like, Bill Gates, for example, has a Jupiter-Pluto conjunction in Leo in the 2nd house. Warren Buffet who – and Bill Gates – is Bill Gates currently the – he’s still like, the richest person in the world, right?

LS: I cannot say.

CB: I think —

LS: I don’t keep track!

CB: — he is, or he’s like, up there.

LS: Yeah.

CB: And then Warren Buffet I think is currently the 4th richest person in the world – Jupiter-Pluto conjunction in the 8th.

LS: Okay.

CB: I just thought it was funny, because so this is Warren Buffet – this was his third Saturn return. And I actually don’t have a lot to report, aside from that he again I think became or was put back to the 4th richest person in the world. I was asking our friend Patrick Watson about this, who tracks things like this, and one of the things he mentioned about the Saturn return was although Buffet apparently backed Hillary Clinton or voted for Hillary Clinton, once Trump got into office, one of the major legislative things that they did that Trump did and the Republicans did was the tax cuts and the changes in the tax code, which then ended up significantly impacting Buffet’s business in terms of making his company like, billions and billions of dollars, partially due to some of those tax cuts and things like that.

LS: Interesting.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah. And those would have been hitting the Jupiter-Pluto in his 8th. Interesting.

CB: Right. So it was something about that. I mean, I’m sure there was other themes in terms of 2nd house themes in terms of his personal finances. I think I read a headline that there may have been some misinvestment in China that may have lost him some money, and I wonder if that wasn’t one of the challenges that came up early in the Saturn return. There also would have been some 3rd house themes surrounding communication. He’s famous for getting up and reading four newspapers each day, and previously seemed to be somewhat tech-averse. But then sometime in the past few years on a conference call said something about Google being his primary search engine, so perhaps part of his Saturn return was learning how to, you know, use technology or other things more in order to track the news and his investments as a 2nd house placement.

Not much else to report there, but I just thought it was an interesting contrast with AOC.

LS: Definitely.

CB: Yeah.

LS: And interesting to see Saturn alone versus Saturn with Neptune and Uranus.

CB: Exactly.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Okay.

CB: All right. So let’s move onto our next example. Do we have a 2nd house – yeah —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — Saturn return from a listener?

LS: Yes. And this is gonna be a second Saturn return, so it will be Saturn not with Neptune and Uranus. So this person did fill in also a bit about her first Saturn return. She said, so this is another Sagittarius rising, Saturn in Capricorn in the 2nd house. This one’s also with the Moon and Mars there as well in Capricorn. And she said during her first Saturn return, she went to grad school and then started her career as a social worker. And you know, while the 2nd isn’t career per se, it is your source of income. And with Saturn ruling the 2nd and the 3rd, I’ve definitely seen Saturn connected to the 3rd house for going to grad school – or going to school in general. And so she went to grad school, and then at the end of her first Saturn return was able to support herself with that new career, which was Saturn in the 2nd house of personal income and finances. Then she said – but that was a while ago. This is her second Saturn return. She said at her second Saturn return, she left her job of 19 years, which was also her career since her first Saturn return, and that she was burned out on working in death and dying. And I thought that was a really interesting piece. She was a social worker working on death and dying at this point, because the Moon in the 2nd house in a close conjunction with Saturn is ruling the 8th house. And the 8th house, in addition to those topics we were mentioning the last couple of charts with shared resources and whatnot, can also be the topic of mortality.

CB: Right.

LS: And things around that. So the dying process or wills or different things. So the ruler of the 8th conjunct Saturn in the 2nd, she was earning her living with the topic of death and dying, which was interesting. But she had been doing that for a long time, and she was burned out, and so she actually left her job at that point.

She also had some issues about where home is. She was thinking about moving back somewhere else and to help her aging mother. As I mentioned earlier, sometimes aging parents or parent figures can come up in terms of the Saturn return, either first or second Saturn return. And I noticed that in hers, even though her 4th whole sign house ruler is Jupiter and it’s not really tied into this, her IC is actually a little bit into Aries. And so the IC ruler, which is also the IC having to do with those same topics of 4th house, home, family, et cetera, parents – the IC ruler is Mars, and Mars is in the 2nd house in Capricorn, so tied into her Saturn return. So issues of where she’s going to live and helping her mother were also in her second Saturn return experience.

She also mentioned a lot of health issues coming up during both Saturn returns, actually, and I was curious why that was, but I was noticing in a lot of the examples that people sent in, whether we’re sharing those today or the other ones we’re not, when the Moon was in there, especially at night, when the Moon was in Capricorn with Saturn sometimes it brought those body issues in.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Even if it wasn’t like, Saturn ruling the first or the 6th, which would be more typical for body issues.

CB: Yeah, I think the body is one of the first significations that Vettius Valens gives for the Moon in the second century.

LS: Yeah. So the Moon can be a general significator for the body, your physical vehicle. And so when Saturn is in there with the Moon, and especially if it’s a night chart but sometimes even if it’s a day chart, then health issues can also be brought in at times.

CB: Okay. That’s pretty good.

LS: Oh, and I had one quick quote from this one. Mostly I summarized it, but she said about to move back to “a place I’ve been fighting emotionally to accept as my home since I had to move there for medical reasons in January of 1980.” And I thought that wording was just really interesting, because it’s Mars ruling the IC. And Mars is like, the fighting. The conflict over it.

CB: Okay. And in terms of the financial stuff, what was the core of that again?

LS: She left her career that she’d been doing since her first Saturn return when she started it, which was also her job of 19 years. And of course, the 19 years is the eclipse cycle, and we had the eclipses and Saturn going through Capricorn during the same time period the last few years.

CB: Yeah.

LS: So it tied in both of those cycles.

CB: Nice. That’s pretty good. And this is a night chart one, unlike the last two like AOC and Buffet that were more constructive. So we’re seeing a little bit more challenging themes come up here, which makes sense.

LS: And also noting that the second Saturn return leaving something or having an ending of something that you may have started during the first Saturn return is fairly typical. It’s not universal, but it is common.

CB: Yeah, definitely.

LS: Yeah.

CB: That makes sense. Okay. And I meant to say as an aside, like, feel free – anybody – we decided not to mention names on these, and we didn’t mean to hopefully not like, offend anybody since like, hiding people’s names. We just didn’t wanna deal with anybody if they weren’t anticipating that suddenly having their name out there. But anybody that’s listening to this that submitted a story that we read here, please feel free to fill in more details or post a comment, either ideally on YouTube below this video on the video version or on the podcast website on TheAstrologyPodcast.com on the entry for this episode to fill in more details, or if you wanna expand or talk about your story additionally; that would actually be really great if you feel like it and if you feel like taking ownership of one of these stories that we’re sharing.

LS: Yeah. So we definitely didn’t wanna take credit away from anyone; we just wanted to make sure that if anyone wasn’t anticipating us reading their name out loud and attaching it to your chart that you can do that on your own if you would like to.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah.

CB: All right. So I think that’s it for 2nd house ones. Let’s move onto the 3rd house.

LS: 3rd house. Okay.

CB: So here’s significations very quickly of the 3rd house – siblings, short trips or short-distance travel, school and communication. Also neighbors, extended relatives, sometimes aunts, uncles, nieces.

LS: Transportation as part of short-distance travel – your means of transportation, which we’ll get into in the next example here. Okay.

CB: Okay.

LS: All right! So this next one’s gonna be a Scorpio rising chart with Saturn in the 3rd house. You can see the Sun is above the Ascendant, well above, and so this is a day chart example. So Saturn in the 3rd, ruling the 3rd and the 4th houses. And so this one – so the quick summary is she moved a lot during her Saturn return. She became mobile; she got a van that she could live in. And her mother got sick. And she was the one where she got divorced early on in the Saturn return, and we were thinking that that might have been partially due to the Uranus transit in the 7th being brought into the Saturn return.

CB: Yeah. So there were like, the primary Saturn return themes that had to do with movement and moving around and living in a mobile situation, and then also some of the 4th house themes that were more clear. But then there was also like, overlapping major 7th house changes that came up and disrupted things, but that partially had to do with the fact that she has Scorpio rising, and so Uranus had moved into her 7th whole sign house of relationships.

LS: Right. And any time there is Saturn in or ruling the 4th and pulling in early here, I mean, your living situation can get disrupted easily by who you’re connected with. And so it can kind of get pulled in indirectly in addition to that Uranus transit in the 7th simultaneous.

CB: Yeah. But it was just a good example of like, the Saturn return is not normally and typically is not the only transit that you have going on for a three-year period, and oftentimes there will be other major transits that are showing other areas of your life that are becoming important during that time.

LS: Yeah, exactly. And they become kind of heightened to some degree, anyway.

So here’s a few quotes. So she said she got divorced early on in the Saturn return, and then she said, “I moved into the small house behind my grandma’s house that Christmas, living alone for the first time in my adult life. It was nice because it was free and a pretty big space, but it was full of car parts – lol, constant 3rd house” signification there “for my dad’s car projects that he is extremely protective of. Organizing his car parts to make the space livable has been a constant battle.” And that just made me laugh, because that’s, of course, Saturn ruling the 4th house of home, family, and parents —

CB: Right.

LS: — placed in the 3rd house.

CB: The father.

LS: The father, yes, 4th house, and then the ruler of the 4th in the 3rd, which is like, your father’s car or your father’s car parts in this example! So that’s pretty literal.

And then she said, “That summer, I dove headfirst into a full load of astrology classes. I began a year-long Hellenistic astrology and horary apprenticeship, got my electional certification and my certification in plant-based nutrition. My ex-husband and I’s house finally sold at this time. I began researching buying a van to live and travel in. By Christmas 2019, my custom van was being built to be delivered in February 2020.” So again, that’s the ruler of the 4th in the 3rd.

CB: Right.

LS: The living —

CB: The living situation is mobile.

LS: Right, the living situation is mobile – i.e., in your vehicle that you’re driving around.

CB: Yeah.

LS: So that’s perfect.

CB: I like that.

LS: Yeah. Then “in the summer, I finally started traveling” – oh, I should say because the courses – where do the courses come in? Do we have the right chart up?

CB: You already said that.

LS: Oh yeah, but I was looking at the chart significations.

CB: Just that Saturn in the 3rd house?

LS: Yeah. Okay. So then “in the summer, I finally started traveling in my van. I did a few large trips, but one solo cross-country trip that was extremely healing. I took my mom to a specialist for treatment, and it seemed to help. I traveled across the country with my sister.” Again, 3rd house things – multiple 3rd house things there, siblings and transportation. “When Saturn retrograded back towards my natal Saturn, my dad randomly blew up on me for moving his car parts!” Again, that’s the emphasis of the ruler of the 4th in the 3rd getting that Saturn hit.

CB: Right.

LS: “And finally, I started” —

CB: Because it’s also like, Saturn. Like, that’s such —

LS: Yes.

CB: — a great Saturn signification.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah, it is. Right. Authority and like, “you don’t have the authority to move my car parts!”

CB: Yeah. And like, protectiveness and sometimes Saturn can be like, kind of miserly is another signification of Saturn.

LS: Right. “I started reorganizing my car part house into something nicer” – this is towards the end of the Saturn return. “By the end of October 2020, I had a whole new office setup for streaming and video editing. By November 2020, I was learning how to write, film, and edit videos. It is now December, and I am preparing to launch my new website about my services and my travels and preparing to launch my new YouTube channel.”

CB: Awesome.

LS: Right. So that’s great – like, lots of different 3rd house significations going on.

CB: Like, the communication there and how one communicates one’s message and speaks or teaches to people.

LS: Exactly.

CB: Yeah. That’s really good. That also brings in some technology elements, maybe with the Uranus in the 3rd house?

LS: Yes. Right.

CB: Yeah. So that’s probably one of the best and most evocative examples that just brings in those 4th and 3rd house significations and shows how that can sometimes – how the rulers of the houses and how planets in houses can manifest sometimes very literally in ways that you don’t expect, and also how sometimes you can have multiple different manifestations of the same placement. So for example, like, the mother getting sick. Her mother getting sick and that being an ongoing thing that she was dealing with, that they were dealing with during the course of the Saturn return with Saturn ruling the 4th house of parents. The father and some tensions with the father coming into play, and the father’s ownership over the 3rd house car things.

LS: Right.

CB: The native themself moving and their own living situation and house – literally like, their house, moving out from the relationship house, but also the house being sold. Then having a new home constructed which happened to be like, a mobile home which she lived in and drove around the country with with the ruler of the 4th in the 3rd. You just got like, every possible manifestation of some of these things going on here.

LS: Right. Definitely. Okay! So is that good for that one?

CB: I think so. And if you feel – if the owner of this chart feels like sharing or posting their YouTube channel or anything like that, feel free to in the comments below this video. So shout out and thanks for that awesome example.

LS: All right, then we have another Scorpio rising 3rd house example. This is gonna be Scorpio rising again, Saturn in Capricorn in the 3rd house, and ruling the 3rd and the 4th. So this person said she identified during her Saturn return, she identified her biological father through DNA and began correspondence – that’s a 4th house thing. She cut off contact initially with the adoptive family that raised her – again, 4th house significations. She drove too much for her job and experienced lots of driving stress during the course of these few years, which is a 3rd house transportation, mobility. She moved into a van – this is another one with the ruler of the 4th in the 3rd, moving into a van! Interesting! She identified sensory and attention issues that had caused blocks to her learning, which is a 3rd house signification. Your sort of thinking process, your cognitive process. She identified fears regarding communication or communicating, which is a 3rd house again. She made progress in how she shares her thoughts, and finally near the end of the Saturn return, she resumed contact with the family that raised her as the Saturn return was ending – 4th house again.

CB: Nice.

LS: Yeah. So that’s pretty succinct, bullet-point, like, lots of 3rd house and 4th house significations there.

CB: Yeah. So let’s break down some of those, because they’re unique topics. Like, identified her biological father through DNA and began correspondence – so 4th house stuff can sometimes, especially during Saturn transits, can deal with looking at the past and having a drive to go back and find out more about your roots or your origins or where you came from.

LS: Definitely. And it’s unique in that, I mean, maybe this’ll be not unique in the future, but currently it’s unique that the Uranus is copresent with Saturn and it’s through the vehicle of new technology, relatively new technology, that she was able to discover her biological father.

CB: Yeah, with – you said Uranus?

LS: Yes.

CB: Okay.

LS: Through DNA technology.

CB: Yeah. DNA was not mentioned by Vettius Valens in the 2nd century.

LS: No!

CB: So there’s also interesting that at the beginning there was a conflict set up, and then a resolution towards the end. So one of the early bullet points was cut off contact with adoptive family that raised her, and so cutting off or cutting off contact, putting up blockages or stopping or refusing something or saying no to something, is Saturn and its rings and setting boundaries —

LS: Right.

CB: — is a very common theme that comes up, depending on what house Saturn is in or what house it’s ruling. It’s funny that it’s like, family ruling the 4th house and then 3rd house communication. So it’s kind of like, you get both of those, the two houses. But then Saturn saying “no” to something or cutting off something.

LS: And putting up new boundaries, or at least new temporary boundaries in the 4th house. But then sort of knocking down blockages in the 3rd house of communicating.

CB: Yeah. So by the end, it said resumed contact with the family that raised her as Saturn return is ending. So there is sometimes when Saturn’s first going through the sign setting up the problems, and then during its successive, like, it’ll station retrograde and then it’ll go retrograde for several months and station direct, and what you’ll see is often people having turning points around the times of the stations especially in the overall developing narrative of that story.

LS: Right. Definitely.

CB: So that’s pretty good.

LS: So those are our 3rd house examples.

CB: Okay. So that’s good for 3rd house. Just to show the chart again, and then so we’re moving onto the 4th house?

LS: To Libra rising with Saturn in the 4th.

CB: So here’s our 4th house example, our 4th house diagram. 4th house signifies parents, home, family, private life, and this is also gonna shift us over so that Capricorn will be on the 4th house and Aquarius will be on the 5th house. So that’ll be the secondary house that Saturn is ruling. So we’ve gotta mention some of the 5th house significations, which are things like children, creativity, pleasure, and sex. Okay.

LS: Okay. So this next example will bring in both. She wrote that she had her son, she had her first child just before her Saturn return started. And so there is Saturn ruling the 5th. And immediately she started reflecting on how her childhood could have been better in some ways. She said her parents were decent, that she always had a roof over her head and food to eat, but she just started reflecting on some of the more emotional pieces of how she was raised. And in doing so, not to blame her parents but to sort of be proactive about how she was raising her son, which is 4th house and 5th house tied together – reflecting on your past and your parentage in order to sort of decide more intentionally what you’re doing with 5th house topics, like how you’re raising your child.

She also said she started drinking less.

CB: Deliberateness and like —

LS: Deliberateness.

CB: — planning is a good – those are two good keywords for Saturn.

LS: Yeah, definitely. But she also said she started drinking less because her father drank a lot when she was growing up, and she said she didn’t wanna raise her son in that kind of environment. And so that, again, as we’ve seen in a bunch of these brings in the Neptune copresent with Saturn there in the 4th. And so sometimes when Neptune is in the 4th or has been like, a substance use issue with parents. Not always; it can manifest in other ways, too, but that can – yeah, I’ve seen that before from time to time.

She said then she also came out as bisexual to her husband and a few close friends, and Saturn is ruling the 5th of sexuality. And that’s certainly not the only way that that can come out as like, a more concentrated topic, but it is one that I’ve seen before as well. Because the Saturn is sort of like, having to struggle with something, and so this person was struggling with that for a piece of her Saturn return until she sort of made that known to her husband and friends.

CB: Right.

LS: And then she wrote, “I had to come to terms and accept that my parents didn’t really have a childhood. They started working as young kids and moved to America when they were still essentially children.” And I thought that was really interesting with that strong Capricorn stellium in the 4th, and especially the applying Sun-Saturn conjunction in the 4th house in a night chart. Which is kind of like, struggle, you know? It does put more emphasis on that. And so it says, you know, your parents – reflecting back on like, how your parents were raised. They had to be very responsible at a young age. That’s very Saturn.

CB: Yeah. It’s like, Saturn can bring maturity beyond its years or can make something appear older or sometimes more severe, more strict and less childlike depending on where it falls. And sometimes that can be experienced as like, cold or harsh or austere in that area of the person’s life where that energy is concentrated. And it’s interesting here with having energy concentrated in the 4th that it was manifesting through her parents not really having a childhood and maybe having – maybe what’s implied is having a harder childhood than they should have and therefore carrying some of that energy through as they raised her.

LS: Exactly. And it seemed like she was kind of like, trying to consciously sort through those influences in order to decide then how to raise her son, which is really very – the whole thing is very tied 4th and 5th houses.

CB: Yeah. So that’s interesting. This is also – since the Sun and Saturn are there in a conjunction, it’s a night chart, so some of the colder, more austere significations of Saturn are coming through, and it’s interesting hearing her process some of that. Yeah, that’s a pretty solid example bringing in – the main focus is the 4th house, but then bringing in some of the 5th house significations and multiple 5th house significations at the same time.

LS: Yeah, definitely. And I wanna also point out as we’re ending this example that while it is a night chart, and she did sort of evoke struggles with some of these pieces along the line during her Saturn return, she also sounded very – I mean, this is subjective, of course, reading people’s accounts, but – she sounded really conscious about it and deliberate, and in those sort of positive Saturnian significations. And I wanna make sure that we convey that that is still definitely possible in night or day charts. You know, it’s more that the externals can sometimes be more of a struggle with the night charts depending on the specifics, but you know, this sounded both like a meaningful struggle and ultimately fairly productive by the end.

CB: Okay. Yeah. And also – I mean, she had her child before the Saturn return started, but then we see Venus there in the 5th house in a night chart, which means the most positive planet in the chart is in the 5th house of children.

LS: Right.

CB: Which is nice in terms of offsetting and maybe making more positive experience in the topic of children than it could be otherwise if there was no positive thing there and if it was just Saturn ruling the 5th house in a night chart, or Saturn in the 5th house in a night chart.

LS: Definitely. Agree. And that Venus also happens to rule the Ascendant since it’s Libra rising, and so —

CB: Okay.

LS: — she is being very intentional about how she’s raising her child, which makes a lot of sense with the Ascendant ruler being placed in the 5th and putting more focus there.

CB: Yeah. She’s taking on the agency of the benefic and she’s doing the best to offset things to raise her child as best as she can and to offset the kind of harsh 4th house things that she’s perhaps recognizes as having inherited from her parents.

LS: Right. Exactly.

CB: That’s great. Cool. That’s a good example.

LS: Yeah.

CB: All right. So let’s move on.

LS: Okay. So the next one, this is going to be another Libra rising, Saturn in the 4th. This is a second Saturn return person, so there’s no copresence of Uranus or Neptune there in Capricorn. So just Saturn ruling the 4th and the 5th. This is actually I’m not sure if this is a day or night chart; this is very close to the Descendant.

CB: I mean, it depends on if the – how accurate the time is.

LS: Right, exactly.

CB: It looks like it’s a exact time, so it should theoretically be a day chart.

LS: It’s rounded to the 10 minutes, so —

CB: Oh.

LS: — hard to say. But anyway, so this one – this is gonna be a little longer, but I love this example. It gives it like, a lot of context. Okay so, the person in terms of the natal placement, she wrote, “I was born in abject poverty without a father, and I grew up in the gutter. It was a pretty gutter, because it was always rural, but dirty and cold in winter nevertheless. My mother was eccentric, to say the least, and charismatic. Through her legacy, I inherited direct access to the English establishment – i.e., a big country house estate from which gender disinherited her. Thus the role of patriarchy was always present despite the total absence of a human father.”

So already, we see a bunch of the natal placements that are gonna get reactivated, right, in the 4th house. So the father being absent, which you know, Saturn can sometimes be a lack of something, at least initially. And so Saturn was there, and then also some poverty. And just yeah, there was some interesting things – I don’t know if we have to time to go through, but interesting things with regard to the English lineage piece. Anyway, Saturn in the 4th meaning like, lineage was very important, however it was going for her.

Okay, so her first Saturn return, she said —

CB: Having a night chart Saturn in the 4th house I’ve seen is pretty commonly sometimes struggling with the absence of a parent.

LS: Definitely.

CB: Like, the loss of a parent or the parent not being there, the parent being hidden in some way —

LS: Right.

CB: — and the partially a lifelong struggle with that that it sort of sets up with the native.

LS: Yeah. Agreed. Yeah, and that’s why I read that piece, because it’s an interesting step-by-step explanation of this chart example.

CB: Yeah, I like also that she used the keywords – which you don’t hear very often, but – she used the keywords “dirty” and “cold.”

LS: Yes.

CB: Which are both Saturn significations in ancient astrology.

LS: Yeah, definitely.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah. This whole example’s really evocative, and that’s why I wanted to include it even though it’s a little longer.

The first Saturn return, she said, “I realized my family of origin” – this is 30 years ago, by the way – “I realized my family of origin was a serious impediment to my progress. This had begun when Saturn squared Midheaven and completed with the Saturn return. The first Saturn return involved reviewing all I had learned from my origins, where the damage to my psyche lay, and how unreal my career ambitions were, all things considered. Needless to say it was painful and led to an entirely necessary breakdown as I processed the loss and grieved. This included revising completely my career plans and realizing, albeit quite still unconsciously, that what I needed most was a secure base I could call my own where my own childhood could grow up more safely.”

So there’s lots of things in there that are interesting. The having to consciously revise career plans and decide that some of them were unrealistic – she has an opposition from Mars in the 10th house to Saturn in the 4th. So it does bring in those career matters during the Saturn return because of that.

CB: Okay.

LS: So that’s one piece.

CB: I also like the ruler of that 10th house is the Moon, which is conjunct Neptune, and the notion of the career plans being unrealistic is funny spot-on keyword there.

LS: Yeah, definitely. I also loved that she wrote that she was reviewing what she’d learned from her origins – origins is a 4th house thing. Where you come from, things that came before you, basically.

CB: Yeah.

LS: What your foundation is. And also the realizing that she needed a secure base, which is 4th house thing.

CB: Yeah. So that was all during the first —

LS: First.

CB: — Saturn return 30 years ago.

LS: Exactly.

CB: And then now in the past three years, she’s gone through her second Saturn return?

LS: Yes. And one more quote I wanted to just emphasize there was, “needless to say, it was painful and led to an entirely necessary breakdown as I processed the loss and grieved.” And that’s just like, a general thing that sometimes comes up during Saturn returns. Things break, but sometimes they need to break.

CB: Right.

LS: Right?

CB: Yeah. Some things need to break in order to set up something new.

LS: Right. Exactly. And processing that loss.

Okay, so next, the second phase – she’s talking about in between the two returns – “The second phase of my Saturn cycles I would characterize as my attempting to establish myself as an entity in my own right – i.e., where I was and with whom. During this period, I bought a house with my partner, married, had a child, divorced, and became completely estranged from my only parent. Bought and sold more property, became fully established as a property owner without debt, changed career completely, and became a sole caregiver to my only child who is severely disabled by chronic illness. It was very hard but rewarding work. Towards the end of my cycle, my career was profoundly and unexpectedly stalled by my daughter’s illness. My social work changed radically and became uncannily quiet compared to what I had known. I was never depressed without reason.” And again, there’s like, lots of rich pieces in there that are evocative of these significations. So buying a house is a 4th house thing. There were a few things emphasizing those property ownership, that that was like, really important with Saturn in the 4th. Becoming estranged from the other parent that she had grown up with – 4th house, parents. And some of these are making me think it was a night chart, because this is rounded to 10 minutes and it’s so close to the angle there.

CB: Right.

LS: And then becoming a sole caregiver to her only child who is severely disabled by chronic illness – that sounds like a Saturn in a night chart ruling the 5th.

CB: Yeah, that’s a pretty good Saturn ruling the 5th house becoming activated during the Saturn return signification.

LS: And this was, yeah, this is also that it was impacting her career. Saturn is the ruler of the 5th and the 4th, but it’s in aspect to Mars in the 10th house of career. And so something about the 5th house Saturn rulership was impacting her ability to do her career towards the end there.

CB: Yeah. So it’s like, that opposition’s getting activated no matter what between Saturn and Mars, and that tension then between the 4th and the 10th. But it is really tricky – I mean, I’m leaning more towards you thinking that it’s Saturn in a night chart, but some of the career stuff would also make sense if that was one of the areas of greatest struggle for her with Mars in a night chart in the 10th. But maybe that’s not the area of greatest struggle; it’s the 4th and the 5th house things that are.

LS: I think – it’s sounding to me like they are. Like the 4th and the 5th. And it’s just the opposition. You know, because —

CB: Right.

LS: — there’s gonna be the opposition either way.

CB: No matter what.

LS: Yeah. Okay, so and I love that last statement – “I was never depressed without reason.” You could read that a lot of different ways, honestly, but it reads to me at least to some extent as like, acknowledging genuine struggle rather than like, feeling bad that you shouldn’t be having a hard time. Which I think is like, actually a really positive Saturn expression, regardless of whether you have a day or a night chart.

CB: Sure.

LS: Acknowledging genuine difficulty. Okay, and having like, proper perspective.

Second Saturn return – “I reviewed the events” —

CB: Wait, so was the last —

LS: This was in between.

CB: — paragraph…

LS: Yeah. So she was recounting basically like, what the cycle was in between her first and second Saturn return.

CB: Okay.

LS: Yeah.

CB: So now we’re getting onto the second —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — Saturn return?

LS: Yeah. So second Saturn return – “I reviewed the events, decisions, and consequences of my actions since my first Saturn return. I was reconciled to them all, as not necessarily what I had hoped for or intended – often disappointing, in fact – but in reality, the best that could have been achieved in the circumstances. Strangely, during the retrograde, I mourned again the loss of my childhood dreams despite knowing they were unrealistic and unhelpful. It has been excruciatingly slow, and yet I do not feel I have discovered anything I didn’t already know, unlike the first return where the realization of what family meant to me was deeply shocking. However, unlike the first time, now the cycle is close to being complete, my way ahead is looking remarkably promising. In spite of covid, in spite of the tragically severe, unpredicted, and painful disabling of my only child, and in spite of living in a place that I would never have chosen had I not become a divorcee and single parent to a chronically and severely sick adult child, I feel as secure as I could hope to feel. Here’s the irony: I am becoming a systemic family therapist.”

CB: Wow.

LS: Yeah. So that last bit, I love that perspective. And it’s a really good characteristic of the second Saturn return – reviewing the events that have happened since the first Saturn return. Like, looking back rather than trying to first establish yourself, which is more of a first Saturn return thing. So reviewing. And also I love that sentence about reconciling oneself to basically “you did the best you could, even if it wasn’t everything you could have hoped for in the world.” And I like that because – and that can apply to lots of different circumstances, but it’s a very Saturn thing as well. Sort of acceptance of reality.

CB: Right.

LS: Yeah. And proper perspective. And Saturn, you know, throughout the life cycle is gradually concretizing more and more, and therefore excluding more and more from what you can do versus what is potential. As you live your life, you’re doing more of what you’re doing, but that is automatically excluding lots of other things you could do in an ideal world.

CB: Yeah, that’s a good point about just the Saturn transits, Saturn placement, Saturn return in general is the excluding of that which you cannot do and coming to realizations of what’s realistic versus what’s not, and sifting through the two and putting different options into the correct categories during your Saturn return.

LS: Yeah. And then, of course, at the end there, “Here’s the irony: I am becoming a systemic family therapist.” That’s very Saturn in the 4th. After you’ve reviewed lots of your own Saturn in the 4th stuff, you have a lot of perspective to help others with potentially.

CB: Right. Definitely.

LS: Yeah. And it’s tied in with her career with Mars in the 10th.

CB: Okay.

LS: So I love this example because it gives a lot of perspective. It gives both first Saturn return and second Saturn return significations, and also it gives perspective for people who are only before or at their first Saturn return of kind of what that whole repeating cycle can be about.

CB: Yeah, definitely. I guess one of the things we’ll have to do in the future – because we wrote articles about this on Saturn return stories, and we did different ones that were interesting. Like we did one for JK Rowling at one point, like, 10 years ago about her Saturn return, and that was when she finished the Harry Potter manuscript, the very first book, and then the squares – like, the first square and that’s when some of the movies came out, and then the opposition and that’s when like, the final book came out, and then the waning square and the next return. And I think you did other ones for other celebrities and stuff like that, but we’ll have to do an episode to talk about that Saturn cycle and the four phases of it, of like, the Saturn return, the opening waxing square, the opposition, the waning square, and then the return again. Just because all of these stories get told as like a continuous piece that you actually have to see the cycle play out in order to fully understand it, and that’s part of what everybody’s doing at their Saturn return is they’re reviewing that past cycle of 30 years, and especially when they start doing that, the ones that stick out the most in the rearview mirror are gonna be those squares and oppositions that happen in seven-year increments.

LS: Definitely. So we’re kind of glossing over those pieces, and this is the example so far that has alluded to some of those pieces the most, but yeah. There’s more intermediate steps in between.

CB: Right. Okay. Anything else about that one?

LS: No, I think that’s it.

CB: Cool. Thanks for that example; that was awesome. Are we moving onto the 5th house, or we have one more 4th house?

LS: I think we have one more 4th house. And I can try to summarize it a little bit more to go more quickly. But this is another one, Libra rising, Saturn in the 4th – this is a first Saturn return, so Saturn with Neptune and Uranus in the 4th house in a day chart. The Sun is up there in the 10th house, so it’s definitely a day chart. And closely conjunct Jupiter exalted in Cancer and Jupiter in a day chart being the most positive planet. So you see, there’s a Saturnian 4th house thing going on of restriction or reality principle, but then there’s a really positive career house thing going on at the same time. But they’re in an opposition. Oppositions typically with the Saturn return usually mean you have to consciously try to balance two totally different things around the same timeframe.

CB: Right. The tensions in those two areas of the life.

LS: And that’s what happens in this example. She wrote in July 2018, she got an award as one of the 10 best international students at her university. She was working on her thesis, planning to go to her home country – she was studying abroad – to write her thesis afterwards. In September 2018, her grandma died; she said it was a real shock because she was in good health and she was only 75, and it was very traumatic at the time but it was also the reason for her slow self-analyzing time that came after that. And she decided since her grandfather then was kind of in shock and alone in his home country – because all the rest of her immediate family were in other countries by that point – she decided to go back to her home country and stay with him as a support while she was writing her thesis. And so you have the 10th house thing and the 4th house thing going on. So a family member, especially an older family member who came before you, needing help, and also a loss of another family member, but still balanced with that tension of really positive 10th house stuff going on that you have to keep going at the same time.

So she said she found herself alone in her home house after 10 years of living abroad. She was writing her thesis. She said, “I was preparing my PhD research proposal, and I sent it around mid-May. I passed the first round and I knew I would have an interview in Italy at the end of June. My grandfather’s health situation got worse in June, though, and I was spending my days at their house. He died the day Pluto crossed my natal Saturn degree in June 2019. We had the funeral, and the day after it, I took the plane to go to the interview for the PhD position. In late July, I got the information that I got accepted to the PhD position, and October I came back to Italy.” And it goes on, but basically she got her position and then she said, “I passed my first year of PhD studies alone in Italy with lots of time to process everything and with a world pandemic going on at the same time.” So there’s a lot of 4th house and 10th house stuff in tension, and I thought this was a really good example of on the one hand, really great Jupiter stuff going on in tension with that Saturn in the 4th. And she was trying her best to do both at the same time.

CB: Yeah. One of the things it reminds me of mentioning the Pluto is just that other piece there of you know, some of these being unique depending on the degrees involved of getting the Saturn-Pluto conjunction in the sky for some people happening so close to certain natal positions —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — and then you getting a dose of both at the same time, which can be very intense. It reminds me of in the last episode I did in December earlier this month, the one right before this, on Bitcoin how the birth chart of Bitcoin had the Sun at 13 degrees of Capricorn, so that in 2014, I think it was, in the spring, it got hit by this simultaneous transit of Pluto conjoining the natal Sun and then transiting Uranus was squaring to the degree at the same time, and then transiting Jupiter was opposing and transiting Mars was retrograde and squaring all at 13 degrees of the cardinal signs all at the same time, and then there were some crazy like, the largest Bitcoin bank basically got hacked and all the Bitcoins got stolen by hackers, and then the price just dropped and it was like a death of Bitcoin for a while. But just how, depending on certain degrees, sometimes people can get hit by not just a Saturn return, but also like, a Pluto transit at the same time and how that’s very unique. Or in the fall just a few months ago, anybody that had Saturn around 25 degrees of Capricorn got hit by not just Saturn – I think it stationed at 25 degrees, but Mars squared it at 25 degrees I think simultaneously in late September.

LS: True.

CB: Or early September.

LS: Yeah. Something like that.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah. So here yeah, quite right. So her natal Saturn was almost 22 Capricorn, and the Saturn-Pluto conjunction happened at almost 23 Capricorn.

CB: Right.

LS: So it was very close to that. It’s also within a few degrees square the Ascendant, and very closely opposite her Sun in particular. And it’s interesting, actually – the Sun is ruling the 11th house of friends and groups in this chart, and she actually also added in the longer email that she had a friend die who was only 29 during her Saturn return. And that’s the rulership of the 11th house. That was one of the planets that got hit most closely by the Saturn-Pluto conjunction.

CB: Right. Okay. So opposing the ruler of the 11th house.

LS: Exactly. So you have a lot of evocative 10th house career stuff, really bright career things happening. Her trying to balance that exactly at the same time as going back to her home country – a 4th house matter – spending a lot of time alone at home, which is also a Saturn in the 4th type of feel, and helping older family members and having older family members pass away, which is also Saturn in the 4th. She also had simultaneously Uranus going through Taurus in the early degrees over a couple placements there, so I’m not surprised there were a couple deaths, because she does have Mars and the Moon in Taurus in the early degrees in the 8th house.

CB: And I mean, that’s worth mentioning also is just even though as the tradition’s progressed, it’s tended to focus on the 8th house for death and mortality that traditionally the 4th house was one of the places of death. And that does actually come up as relevant sometimes as well – the 4th house – for mortality issues.

LS: Yeah.

CB: I like – one of the things I like about some of the examples that we’ve been going through recently, I think especially this and maybe it was the last one or one before that, was how we’re focused on the Saturn return and the Saturn return story over the past three years, but sometimes there’s this funny overarching theme in terms of what the native’s life has focused on consistently for long periods of time from the ruler of the Ascendant and the house that it’s placed in. In this instance, the ruler of the Ascendant being in the 9th house and some of these themes of foreign travel and focusing on their education and getting their degrees being long-term projects, versus like, I think it was the last example, the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th house or maybe it was two examples back.

LS: Two examples ago. Yeah, definitely. And if you complexify this and look at all the pieces, which would take us all day, but you have to take that into account when you’re looking at someone’s Saturn return, because those background pieces are still gonna be foundational even if they’re not exactly tied into the Saturn itself.

CB: Right.

LS: Yeah.

CB: What is the native’s life about in a universal sense or if you’re taking a bird’s eye view look at it?

LS: Exactly.

CB: All right. Anything else about that example?

LS: No, I think that’s all.

CB: Cool. Thank you for that, anonymous person!

All right, let’s do one more 4th house example, and then we’ll move onto the 5th house.

LS: Okay. Sounds good.

CB: All right.

LS: All right. So this one – again, Libra rising, Saturn in the 4th, ruling the 4th and 5th. This is going to be someone said, “The past three years have been very weird for me. I started to get way more into astrology and getting back into spirituality, but not too religious nor conspiracy realms. Following the Moon cycles and trying to understand that in paganism and in astrology. I’ve had a career shift kind of; I’m an artist-writer. I’ve been working more with history projects, archive projects. I am very keen in learning more about LGBTQ+ history and how it’s documented in the archives, which is very poor. I’ve also gone under two-and-a-half years of therapy, diagnosed with complex PTSD. When I was 29, I came out to my parents, who I don’t have great relationships with either, but I try. It wasn’t the best news for them, but I’ve been out to my friends since I was 16 or 17. It felt like the right time. When I was 23, my sister physically assaulted me. Last year, she finally apologized after six years of trying to get something out of her. My relationship with my family has been very up and down in the last five years, but especially in the last two years it’s been intense. But I am a fighter for common sense and no childishness. In a couple weeks, I’m moving back to my dad’s, as I have no money left to rent where I am again – pandemic. And at 29, I had my first cancer scare. Well, I’m still in that scare because of the pandemic. I was also diagnosed with sarcoidosis in the skin and lungs.” So that was her story.

CB: Yeah. One of the pieces of that that I liked was the mention really briefly of during the Saturn return coming out to their parents who they didn’t necessarily have a great relationship with, because it brought out the – so it’s a Libra rising chart with Saturn ruling the 5th house, and placed in the 4th house in a night chart.

LS: Night chart. Right.

CB: So that’s a pretty good 5th house-4th house combination, night chart Saturn experience.

LS: For sure. And then moving back in with her dad near the end – that’s also a 4th house thing, both parents and your living situation are 4th house topics. The part I actually thought was most interesting was delving more into the topics of history and archives, particularly the archives of sort of queer ancestors, you know, basically. And that’s very 5th and 4th – history and archives. I mean, I actually see archives a lot in the 12th as well, and she does actually have the ruler of the 12th in the 4th. But the 4th is also history, the past, things that came before you. And so I really like that sort of unique archive piece of the 4th house.

CB: Yeah. One of the other things that mentioned cancer scare and some health issues, and the Ascendant is at 17 degrees of Libra and Saturn is at 18 degrees of Capricorn in a night chart. So that means, you know, any time Saturn returns back to its exact degree, it’s also squaring the degree of the Ascendant at the same time, which can represent the body and physical vitality. So there can be some challenge to that. And Saturn, typically Saturn ailments – I mean, cancer is one of them, but also issues with the skin, issues with the bones, and issues with the teeth can be very common Saturn type things that come up.

LS: Definitely. And in addition to Saturn being closely by degree square the Ascendant, she also has the Ascendant ruler, Venus, in Capricorn – so conjunct Saturn. And then she also has the Moon, the sect light in a night chart, in the 4th house in Capricorn. So she has like, several, like, three different indications here of things that could affect the body.

CB: Right. That’s a good point.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Okay. I think that’s it. There wasn’t much else I wanted to mention about that, because I wanted to start going through – I wanted to like, try and include as many examples as we can, but it also means we can’t linger on —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — some of them as much as we might want.

LS: Definitely.

CB: All right. So ready?

LS: Yes.

CB: All right, so we’re now transitioning into the 5th house, I believe.

LS: Yes, except I don’t see the chart.

CB: All right, so here’s significations. We already talked about the 5th house for children, creativity, pleasure, sex. 6th house, because this is gonna shift us to Saturn also ruling the 6th with Aquarius, 6th house traditionally can be things like illness, injuries, work, and subordinates. Also pets. Is there anything else?

LS: No, I think those are some of the main ones.

CB: All right. Do we have a – is this the next chart?

LS: I think we’re actually missing the chart, but I can read it anyway.

CB: Okay.

LS: Because it’s a good one. I mean, it’s a very apt one, for 5th house.

CB: Yeah. Read it, and I’ll see if I can get it together.

LS: Okay. Sounds good.

CB: Okay.

LS: So this one is 5th house example with Saturn placed in the 5th and ruling the 5th and the 6th. And this person said, “My son, who is 26, now has had a chronic illness since he was six years old. So in the past two years, he underwent four major surgeries. He is okay now, but it has been a difficult Saturn return” for her, because it has not been his Saturn return yet. So I wanted to point out that this was not just Saturn in the 5th. And if I’m remembering right, I think this is a night chart, but we’ll see if you can pull up the chart in a couple minutes, but it’s not just Saturn in the 5th, but it’s also Saturn ruling the 6th placed in the 5th, which connects the topics together. And so the topic of illness – 6th house – with the child – 5th house – and with Saturn overlay.

So then she wrote, “My daughter is not an easy kid, but my relationship with her has changed for the better in the last two to three years thanks to astrology, since I understand her much better now.”

CB: Take a look – is this —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — the chart?

LS: Yes.

CB: So it’s Virgo rising, with Saturn and Jupiter in Capricorn in the 5th whole sign house. It’s a day chart, and we’re talking second Saturn return currently for this person, right? They had their —

LS: Yes.

CB: — first Saturn return in the late —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — ‘80s and early ‘90s, and this —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — is the second one?

LS: This is a second Saturn return, yeah.

CB: Okay.

LS: So issues with both children, the first one having a bunch of major surgeries with ruler of the 6th in the 5th, and then the second one just sort of developing her relationship in a more positive fashion with the second child. And she also wrote, “I got unexpected retirement offer at work and then started studying astrology after that.” And I thought that was actually interesting pull in here. I mean, part of it was just that Uranus was going over her Sun in the 9th in terms of studying astrology, but she has Venus in Aries in the 8th house ruling the 2nd house of income, and the 9th house which astrology traditionally goes in. And Mercury also in the 8th ruling the first house of self and 10th house of career. So it was like, the Saturn return, since it was square to those Aries planets, was actually pulling in those topics as well. So I thought that was interesting, just the unexpected retirement offer at work that allowed her to start studying astrology, which was thereby a piece of how she improved her relationship with her other child.

CB: Nice. Okay.

LS: They’re all kind of like, indirectly connected in the chart.

CB: Yeah. But that’s a pretty good example, especially in the focus on the basically children and children having some issues, and then some 6th house coming up in terms of sickness with the children or in terms of work things.

LS: Definitely.

Yeah. And it’s a good example also of your Saturn return, depending on what house topics it’s focused on, can be more focused on other people in your life and not just what’s going on with you.

CB: Yes. That’s a really good point that sometimes it’s not about you. Sometimes it’s about people around you and things that are happening in your life that you’re seeing echoes of in your chart, but you may not see the full details of in your chart because it’s actually happening in somebody else’s life. But sometimes that can still affect you or involve you or your reactions to it can sometimes be relevant in the chart.

LS: For sure.

CB: Okay.

LS: Okay. So I think we’re at 6th house after that.

CB: Okay, so that was our 5th house example. That was also funny, because one of our – I remember one of our Saturn return examples from Saturn in Sagittarius with Saturn in the 5th was not having the person having their first child, it was having like, an unexpected second or third child that was not planned for —

LS: Right.

CB: — and that sort of pushed the native over limit in terms of what they were able to handle, so it ended up being like, a very difficult three-year period that was brought on sort of by the arrival of another child.

LS: Yeah. That could definitely be a Saturn in 5th too.

CB: Yeah. All right. So 6th house – we’ve already talked about the significations. Illness —

LS: Illness, subordinates —

CB: — injuries, work, subordinates.

LS: Work, subordinate positions, et cetera.

CB: This is also gonna shift us to 7th house becoming relevant. So relationships, partnership, marriage, and other people in the person’s life in general.

LS: Definitely.

CB: So both romantic and business partnerships. All right, so what is our – let me pull it up. Is that correct?

LS: So this is gonna start our Leo rising examples with Saturn in the 6th in Capricorn. So this one, she wrote, “I live in England, am employed as a housekeeper for a wealthy family. I do all the cleaning, laundry, cooking, et cetera. Think of a smaller Downton Abbey. This maybe makes sense with my full 6th house, my having a ‘subordinate’ role.” Which is, you know, definitely can be a thing – like, being an assistant, even like, if you’re a high-level assistant sometimes with 6th house stuff.

CB: Yeah, totally. And the chart placements for those listening to the audio version, it’s a Leo rising chart with Saturn, Neptune, Mercury, and Uranus in Capricorn in the 6th whole sign house.

LS: And Saturn ruling the 6th and 7th.

CB: Right.

LS: Okay, then she wrote, “My work moved to part-time, so I trained as a yoga teacher, and then I started teaching classes.” And doing body-focused work is also a 6th house topic for some people. So massage therapists or bodyworkers or tai chi teachers – anything that’s like, body-related can be a 6th house thing as well.

CB: Yeah. Sometimes just modalities that have to do with health and healing.

LS: Yeah, exactly.

CB: Which can also sometimes extend to like, doctors.

LS: Doctors, nurses, yeah. She wrote, “I also sought out counseling for myself to help with some fears I was having about becoming a mother – Moon in the 12?” Because this person does also have the Moon in the 12th house, I noted also that she has the ruler of the 5th house, which is Sagittarius, Jupiter, in the 12th house as well. So I could see there being some fears surrounding having children.

So let’s see, then she got engaged during her Saturn return; Saturn is ruling the 7th house. Though the wedding was postponed due to covid. She wrote, “While the UK and much of the world was on lockdown, my yoga classes had to stop in person, and I had to start teaching on Zoom. My housekeeping job carried on as normal.” And I just wanted to note that the Uranus copresence in the 6th often is about using technologies for work, and so she switched to having – of course, lots of people had to switch to doing that, but you know, it can be something more long-lasting for those placements natally.

Then she said she got pregnant, which was unplanned. She found out six days after the June 5th, 2020, eclipse in her 5th house, which is the first eclipse in Sagittarius there.

CB: Oh yeah. There’s a lot of Leo rising people that I started noticing getting pregnant basically around the time of that eclipse in Sagittarius back in June.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Yeah.

LS: She said, “Unfortunately because of the pregnancy, I had a work issue with my housekeeping job, which made me realize I wanted to leave the job. I live on a farm estate where I work as part of the job, so we needed to find somewhere else to live if I was to leave. We hunted for houses for a couple months and found the perfect house on the Pisces Full Moon in September. We put in an offer, and had it accepted and arranged a mortgage all in one day!” And the Full Moon would actually be in the 8th house, and the 8th house is, of course, shared resources, which you would be doing with your partner if you’re buying a house together, but also the banking mortgage. But the ruler, Jupiter, is – I mean, it was the Full Moon was the timing of it, but the ruler, Jupiter, is actually pulled into her Saturn return because it’s opposite the Capricorn planets in Cancer there.

CB: Okay.

LS: So then let’s see. Her last – she said, “My last day on my job is gonna be December 14th,” which is in two days from the day we’re recording here today, which is three days before her Saturn return ends.

CB: Wow.

LS: Yeah. And so the last little sort of addendum was that she’s gonna be relying on others’ resources for a year while she’s looking after her newborn baby, which is partly due to her moving into an 8th house profection year at age 31, but also again, that 8th house ruler tied into her Saturn return of shared resources being part of her work.

CB: Right.

LS: Yeah.

CB: That makes sense. Okay. And this is a night chart with Venus in the 7th whole sign house, so that’s also something worth mentioning in terms of that and that it was activating 7th house stuff as part of her Saturn return and like, relationships and marriage and partnership. But there was that nice like, offsetting factor of having the most positive planet, which is Venus in a night chart, being in the 7th whole sign house.

LS: Yeah, definitely.

CB: Yeah.

LS: So that’s a really great 6th house example. She kind of wanted to get out of her sort of subordinate job, although it wasn’t like, the worst job in the world. She started learning yoga, teaching, started teaching classes after she went through yoga teacher training, and so that’s a bodywork 6th house thing. Yeah. Pretty good 6th house example.

CB: Oh, and you know, this is another – this is a good example of another mitigating position I forgot to mention but we mention in like, every other podcast, which is if you look at the degree of the Midheaven, it’s at 12 Taurus.

LS: Yeah.

CB: So Saturn is configured by a trine to that within three degrees, and that often happens when that happens – when a 6th house planet gets mitigated, that’s often when you see the more constructive manifestations of the planet in that house, even if it’s a difficult house. So in this instance, the 6th house.

LS: Yeah, definitely. And some of this is getting reiterated, too, because she also has Mercury which is the ruler of the 2nd house of income – your source of income – placed in the 6th, very close conjunction with all of those planets and trine the Midheaven as well.

CB: Okay. So Mercury is also mitigated.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Nice. Nice chart!

LS: Great example.

CB: Kudos to that person. Yeah, that’s pretty cool. So that’s a good one. That’s a night chart one, but a relatively constructive night chart one, then.

LS: Yeah, definitely.

CB: Okay. All right, so moving on?

LS: Yes. There’s another Leo rising one with Saturn in Capricorn in the 6th. Again, same generation Saturn return, so Saturn, Uranus, Neptune all in Capricorn in the 6th as well as Mercury there too. And this one – let’s see, she said less than two weeks after Saturn’s ingress into Capricorn, she met an important relationship partner; they started a life together, moved into together in a shared home, were planning for the future. And then in September of 2019, that partner left – sort of abruptly – without being able to explain why. And she was left in shock and “what very much felt like hell.” And I was noting the Uranus and Neptune copresence with Saturn there, because the Uranus being sometimes abrupt happenings compared to just Saturn alone there.

CB: Right.

LS: And then the Neptune being the confusion, because she was kind of describing in more her own words that like, she was very confused about why the person left, and that he couldn’t even really fully explain why he needed to leave. And so there was some nebulousness around the whole situation. And this is the ruler of the 7th house, Saturn, with Uranus and Neptune.

CB: Yeah. Classic Neptune stuff involving whatever significators – just sometimes something happening, and it not being clear to the person who owns the chart like, why, or there being some mysteriousness surrounding it. Which sometimes like, many years later, they’ll have another transit and it’ll get clarified, but other times it can be something that you just never find out.

LS: Definitely. But she also wrote that she experienced several different major health issues for the first time ever in her life, and that seemed very much out of her control. And again, that’s that 6th house stellium with Saturn there in a night chart in the 6th house of health and illness. And sometimes it is more confusing as to how to try to heal, or if there is a way to heal from some of those issues when Uranus and Neptune are there – particularly Neptune. Because again, that nebulousness factor can sometimes sort of obscure the clarity of like, what exactly is happening or what you need to do. I’ve seen that a lot with those placements in the 6th.

CB: Yeah. And Saturn sometimes just being – things are compulsory or things are outside of your control that just happen or are forced on you and then you have to deal with.

LS: Right. Exactly.

CB: Yeah.

LS: So that’s that one.

CB: Okay.

LS: Let’s see. And there’s one more 6th house. So this is again Leo rising, Saturn in the 6th just with Uranus and Neptune. This is a day chart example with Sun in Gemini in the 11th house. So clear day chart.

This also has a very close opposition from Venus in Cancer in the 12th house to Uranus and Saturn in particular in the 6th, although that three-planet stellium to some extent. She wrote, “My Saturn return started on December 19th, 2017, when Saturn entered Capricorn. On that day, my massage therapy license was issued, signaling a new beginning in career in the health/wellness industry, and also legally allowing me to open my own practice so I would be officially self-employed as a massage therapist.”

CB: Nice.

LS: So right out the gate, that’s like, very clear, great 6th house Saturn return example. And again, this is a day chart, so this is like, very constructive thing going on so far with Saturn being something she’s already worked towards and planned for. And so it actually manifesting as some success around that early on.

She also, you can see, has Saturn at just one degree in Capricorn, so some of the events would start immediately upon that ingress. Although I was still impressed that it was the exact day of the ingress.

CB: Yeah, that is impressive. And I like – that’s one of the things to pay attention to is sign ingresses, and it’s one of the things that always I felt compelling about whole sign houses is seeing sometimes those topics shift for people really close to the ingress. Although this would not be a full example of that, because like, Saturn’s so close to the cusp. It’s like, right at the beginning of the sign.

LS: Yeah, exactly. Then she wrote, “Around the time that my Saturn return was exact, I spent a very difficult Christmas with my parents with my dad coming to visit during a time when he had relapsed into heavy drinking, and also at a point where he and my mother had not spoken for over a decade.” And then she wrote that in the aftermath she stopped speaking to her mother for a few months because of the conflict around this whole thing. And I thought that was an interesting description, you know, with that Saturn opposed Venus in the 12th house. Venus is the IC ruler in this chart, and so there’s something about home, family, parents being put into the 12th house opposed Saturn and Neptune and Uranus.

CB: Right.

LS: And so there’s like, the Neptune thing; there’s the 12th house thing. Sometimes there can be addiction issues with either of those, much less both. Okay, and also estrangement, you know? The ruler of the IC being in the 12th. So.

CB: Yeah, and that opposition in general.

LS: Yeah. “In April 2018, Saturn hit my natal Neptune and then stationed retrograde, traveling back to almost within a degree of my natal Saturn before stationing direct in September. During that time, I made an emergency trip to England in May to see my dad who had been hospitalized due to his alcoholism. And in July, I quit cannabis, a substance I depended on to escape my feelings and my reality. I noticed after quitting cannabis that I started drinking more. I quit drinking in March 2019. Both decisions to quit have led me into deeper, healthier, more substantive relationships with myself and with my closest friends.”

So you get the ruler of the IC in the 12th – hospitalization – piece with the father. You also get the Saturn-Neptune copresence in the 6th for her, for her own habits.

CB: Yeah, definitely.

LS: Yeah. And so that’s like, revising what habits you have, especially if there are habits of escapism such as substance overuse. Then – and I actually love that it was the Venus opposition to those planets, because of that last piece she wrote, that it led her into deeper and more substantive relationships. And that’s a Venus kind of general significator is like, connections with other people.

CB: Yeah. As well as possibly overlapping with Saturn ruling the 7th and like, your close one-on-one relationships with the other.

LS: Definitely. Then she wrote, “I would say that throughout my Saturn return, I have struggled a lot with managing my time and the physical energy as I moved into hands-on work and owning a small business. It’s been a rollercoaster of sometimes successfully sticking to a really strict routine of writing, meditating, doing yoga, praying, and pulling a tarot card or two, or going for a long walk each morning. And then after a few weeks, completely devolving into a Netflix-binging, social media addicted couch potato.” And that sounded really apt for the struggle of Saturn in the 6th is like, your daily routines and your habits, and also how to healthfully integrate the Neptune rather than it being escapism.

CB: Yeah, definitely. That’s really brilliant articulation of those things and the contrast, especially some of those keywords at the beginning of the paragraph I liked. Like, “managing my time and physical energy as I moved into the hands-on work of owning a small business” is so classic Saturn 6th house type themes.

LS: Right. Definitely. And I also noted that the ruler of the 10th house is actually that same Venus opposite Saturn, and so when she got her massage license the day the Saturn return started, that was also like, her launching her career, which is —

CB: Oh, okay.

LS: — the ruler of the 10th house of career.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Definitely. That’s good.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Good stuff.

LS: So that’s a good example.

CB: Yeah, I like that one.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Okay. Good job. Let’s move on; let’s keep it moving here!

LS: Yeah.

CB: So —

LS: I can see gonna be a longer of the podcasts!

CB: So are we moving into the 7th house —

LS: We are.

CB: — at this point? Okay. So 7th house, relationships, partnership, marriage, other people. And then this shifts us into Saturn when Capricorn’s on the 7th house, then it’s also ruling Aquarius in the 8th whole sign house, which is issues such as death and mortality, inheritance, the assets or money belonging to other people. Also like, shared resources or resources belonging to the partner, whether a business partner or especially the marriage partner if the person is married. Also sometimes like, taxes.

LS: Taxes, loans, debts.

CB: Loans, debts. Okay.

LS: So this is a Cancer rising, Saturn in the 7th example. Her quote – “I have done a complete restructuring and reconceptualization of what committed partnership means to me. I now think of committed partnerships not only in a romantic context, but what it means to continually commit to a partnership with loved ones, not just romantic/sexual loved ones, but friends I now consider committed partners as well. I have significantly blurred the lines between romantic partner and friend partner in a way that feels really transformative, and have even started having conversations I would generally reserve for lovers with friends. For example, intentional ‘define the relationship’ style conversations about how I want to continue to commit to our relationship and watching it grow and loving them.”

So that’s already a great exposition of that stellium of Uranus, Neptune, Saturn, I think.

CB: Right!

LS: Right, blurring the lines.

CB: Saturn is like, really closely conjunct Neptune in the 7th house in this chart.

LS: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, and so the blurring the lines or sort of dissolving some of the boundaries between different types of relationship is very Saturn-Neptune there. And I think Uranus, you know, her saying that it felt really transformative to do that is like, the Uranus kind of difference involved. Like, Uranus is often something different than the norm or the average.

CB: Yeah, something that can compared to the norm that can seem unique or what’s the word for – give me some words that – because I’m coming up with words like “quirky” or “abnormal” —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — and I’m not trying to stigmatize it, but —

LS: Yeah. Unique? Just I mean, difference from the norm. You know, like, not average.

CB: Not average, okay.

LS: Yeah. I mean, because it can also be like, innovative or things like that, which —

CB: Yeah.

LS: — I think she would probably feel.

CB: “Innovative” – that’s a good one.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Look – also, this is a night chart, so it’s like, we would expect some more challenging type 7th house stuff. But notice the mitigation where we have Venus in a night chart in its own sign in Libra in the 4th whole sign house of five degrees of Libra overcoming through a superior square, also known as domination in Hellenistic astrology in a good sense and kind of —

LS: Right.

CB: — bonifying Saturn and forcing it to be better than it might be otherwise.

LS: Yeah. And I just noticed, you know, as you said that, that Venus is actually the ruler of the 11th house of friends and groups.

CB: Right.

LS: And so it is actually the ruler of the 11th house of friends connected to those 7th house conversations, which actually makes additional sense of what she just described.

CB: Yeah. And she’s got the sect light itself also is the Moon, which is exalted up in Taurus trining —

LS: Right.

CB: — the Saturn-Neptune stuff.

LS: Right. So there’s like, a couple different connections of like, friendships to 7th house committed partnership that she’s talking about.

CB: And that’s actually the ruler of the Ascendant, so she has Cancer rising with the ruler of the Ascendant in the 11th house —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — trining the 7th house stuff.

LS: Definitely.

CB: It’s pretty good. Was there – there was more to that one —

LS: Yeah. So that was the first part. Next quote – “I learned invaluable and at times painful lessons about my own relationship dynamics, both toxic and healthy, and how I am in dynamic with others.”

CB: Hold on a second. Can we —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — go back, because I just forgot to mention something —

LS: Sure.

CB: — which is a whole sidenote tangent. But the phrase “I have significantly blurred the lines between” —

LS: Right.

CB: — X, which is what we’re focusing on as the Saturn-Neptune thing.

LS: Yeah.

CB: And it’s just reminding me because it was coming up again recently, the house division debate and how I had identified that where it came up several years ago on the podcast and became a major focus of it for a while during the Saturn-Neptune squares of 2015 and 2016 when Saturn was transiting through Sagittarius and it was exactly squaring Neptune. And I was realizing that the whole house division thing in astrology and the debate surrounding that was a very Saturn-Neptune thing. And that’s a great keyword for that is like, blurring the lines, and the lines between something being unclear or —

LS: Not just one thing or the other.

CB: Like, malleable or uncertain or like, wanting to pin something down or something that you think that should be concrete and should be very distinct, but —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — in fact ends up being nebulous for some reason that’s outside of your control, despite attempting to wrangle it into —

LS: Sure.

CB: — you know, normal —

LS: Into categories?

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah. Into discrete categories. Yeah. Definitely.

CB: Anyway. I just wanted to mention that as my little aside for Saturn-Neptune stuff, because that’s something I’ve been thinking about again when it comes to house division and that was such a great articulation of that archetype of the Saturn-Neptune archetype here applied to relationships.

LS: Right. Yeah, there’s a bunch of different ways that can play out, but these are a couple.

CB: Right.

LS: Yeah. Okay. Then the next paragraph – “I learned invaluable and at times painful lessons about my own relationship patterns, both toxic and healthy, and how I am in dynamic with others. I most importantly learned to first be in a healthy primary partnership with myself before I can show up in healthy dynamic with others. I had two major romantic partnerships end during my Saturn return and began a few casual but meaningful others. I had a huge influx of dating opportunities come into my life to teach me lessons, and am now exiting my Saturn return single and healthier and more in love with myself than I have ever been. If I didn’t learn” —

CB: Single?

LS: Single.

CB: Okay.

LS: Yeah.

CB: That’s a good poInt.

LS: It is!

CB: Or it’s a good like —

LS: Yeah – hold on! “If I didn’t learn my lesson about toxic relationship patterns in one dynamic, it sure as hell showed up in the next until I finally overcame it.”

So I mean, even though this is a night chart, and there is a lot of mitigation from that overcoming Venus square from Venus in Libra to those planets, it’s still Saturn in a night chart in the 7th. And it’s also a Saturn return focused on the Saturn-Venus square. So relationships in many different forms are like, a focus here, and you know, she is talking through like, there were actually toxic patterns, either from other people or from herself, that she had to work through during her Saturn return.

CB: Yeah. The other thing it made me think of is how, again, and it complicates the whole – because I wanna say the focus on the self is one of the things that comes up naturally when you start getting 7th house transits. So Saturn is not just transiting the 7th house, so it’s not just coming from the other, but sometimes that opposition then to the Ascendant as well as any first house planets, which there is one here – Jupiter is in the first house in Cancer on the Ascendant degree – causing tension then and sometimes the tensions that come up in the sphere of relationship causing a reflection and changes to the sense of self of first house, but it’s kind of complicated here because what was also happening over the past year-and-a-half is we had those eclipses bouncing back and forth between the 7th and the first.

LS: Definitely.

CB: Like, accelerating and emphasizing even more this sort of period of new beginnings and like, culminations back and forth between relationships and self.

LS: Yeah, absolutely. And her circumstance additionally, Uranus – for the last year of the Saturn return – Uranus going over the Ascendant ruler, the Moon, here in Taurus in the 11th house.

CB: Oh, yeah.

LS: So they’re like —

CB: That’s relevant.

LS: Yeah. So there’s a few different things going on with first house and 7th house stuff.

CB: Definitely.

LS: Yeah. Okay! So that’s —

CB: Okay.

LS: — that’s pretty like, short and sweet, like, epitome of Saturn return in the 7th relationship issues.

CB: Yeah. Good example. And also there was like, a bit of – obviously there’s mitigations, but there was almost a bit of a cheeriness in it despite coming out of it like, single —

LS: Single, yeah.

CB: — which somebody else might be like, oh, that’s too bad.

LS: Definitely.

CB: But you know, it really sometimes really depends on your perspective and the perspective that you put on things when you’re coming out of it to a certain extent.

LS: Right. It depends on your perspective, and also I think is, you know, potentially touching on that mitigation from Venus in Libra in such a close aspect to Saturn, and also, you know, can be the piece of like, you know, when you’re coming out of your Saturn return there can be aspects of it – no matter what the chart looks like – where you feel like, wow, I’ve really grown and learned in this area. And then on a different day, you might be like, oh my god, everything sucks.

CB: Yeah.

LS: You know, and it can go back and forth a bit!

CB: That’s a good point. Like, if we had checked in on them in the middle of it, like, during the middle of a bad break-up or something like that when you hadn’t gotten distance and perspective and gone on philosophical musings about the —

LS: Right!

CB: — broader meaning of it all —

LS: Yes.

CB: — where you might not be in necessarily such a cheery mood.

LS: Exactly. So just, you know, know that like, all of that is healthy!

CB: Sure.

LS: A whole mix.

CB: It’s a process.

LS: Yeah. Process. Okay. So that moves us to the 8th house.

CB: We are moving right along at a pace of only like, two or three hours into this.

LS: Yeah. Okay, so the next one’s gonna be an 8th house example with Gemini rising.

CB: And then our significations?

LS: Oh yeah. Yeah, so —

CB: So 8th house we’ve already got death, inheritance, assets of others; 9th house – travel, foreign matters, education, religion, also things like astrology or other metaphysical mystical arts and sciences.

LS: Yep.

CB: Anything else? Foreign people —

LS: Yeah.

CB: Foreign places.

LS: Cross-cultural experiences, but they’re all kind of similar —

CB: Yeah.

LS: — in there.

CB: Okay.

LS: Okay. So Gemini rising, Saturn in Capricorn in the 8th house. It looks like this one is gonna be a second Saturn return. This person, I’m just reading a couple quotes. They wrote, “heavy, heavy, heavy. Mentally, physically, and emotionally. So exhausting. No energy. I learned about reducing. Lost my dad to a terrible disease, lost my inheritance to his wife. Lost my way, my core. Even lost three of my cats. Found more internal strength that I can do with even way less. Grew stronger bonds with people that” —

CB: They actually emphasized that. They said —

LS: “Waaaaay less.”

CB: Yeah, you gotta like, enunciate like —

LS: Yeah, yeah. Okay.

CB: — they said, “that I can do with even waaaaay less.”

LS: Yes.

CB: Okay.

LS: “Grew stronger bonds with the people that matter. Dove deep, and found that I am more resilient than I thought.” And I really love that paragraph, because on the one hand, it brought out several different pieces of the 8th house. So losing a parent, the 8th house mortality, losing a parent, losing an inheritance – that’s another 8th house thing – to his wife, so it’s something about a shared resource that was lost.

CB: This was Saturn in the 8th house —

LS: Saturn in the 8th house.

CB: — in a night chart, so —

LS: Yes.

CB: — it’s like, loss of a parent, having to deal with death and mortality is a common 8th house theme.

LS: Right.

CB: And then also inheritance is typically an 8th house —

LS: 8th house.

CB: — theme, but in this case, because it’s Saturn and it’s a night chart, it’s like, the negation of inheritance. Like, having something that was supposed to come to you, but then having it go awry or be denied by somebody else taking it.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Which is something we see come up in other houses if you actually pay attention. That notion of like, diversion or something being snatched away that otherwise would have been the normal experience of that house.

LS: Right, because sometimes it’s just obstacles, and then some other times it’s actually a no. And it can vary.

CB: Yeah, and a no or also a like, something is fraudulently —

LS: Taken.

CB: — taken from you.

LS: Yeah. Right.

CB: Like, that’s one of the funny things about how some of the 2nd century astrologers talk about the malefics is sometimes attributing them to like, thieves and crooks and what are the scenarios in life in which something is robbed or taken from you.

LS: Like, wrongfully taken something that should be yours. Yeah.

CB: Yeah, like wrongdoing or theft or something things like that.

LS: Right. Yeah. So this was an example of some of those things. So one of the things I liked about that paragraph was those specific significations. She said “even lost three of my cats,” so there were like, multiple losses. But then the 2nd half of the paragraph was like, kind of on the way up. You know, like, growing in strength, understanding that one could do with so much less than you would assume.

CB: That’s a huge Saturn theme.

LS: Yes.

CB: Like, learning to live with less and realizing that you can survive on less than you ever thought that you could because you grow accustomed to a certain level of what you then consider to be the bare minimum. But what happens when that is ripped away from you and you find yourself still living and still surviving even though you’re doing so on far less than you ever thought you could ever survive on before.

LS: Right. And that is even more emphasized in the current Saturn returns, which was Saturn-Pluto. Because that’s a definitely Saturn-Pluto type of transit —

CB: Yeah.

LS: — of like, deep loss.

CB: Because it just like, amplifies or intensifies the tendency that Saturn already has to take away.

LS: Right. Right. Or a major, major overhaul – like, a cataclysmic overhaul. That kind of thing. Which has happened for some people.

Okay, so that was the first paragraph. Second – “personally, the lockdown has given me the time” – she was talking about the covid shutdowns of work. “Personally, the lockdown has given me the time and space to work through the Saturn-Jupiter-Pluto in Capricorn conjunct my natal Saturn. On the one hand, there were restrictions, but on the other, it felt like total freedom. I felt like a kid on the first day of summer, and I had what felt like infinity stretched out before me to play and explore. Again, no distractions and very limited obligations as well. No daily life grind getting in the way, no demands of other people. So intense freedom in the midst of severe restrictions.” And I was kind of curious – I feel like that was bringing in some of the 9th house significations of time and space to explore, and freedom. You know, because the 9th is more like, reaching outward to things that are foreign to you or that are beyond your everyday life, whereas the 8th very much is not.

CB: Right.

LS: And so and it really felt like she was describing the 8th, and then the 9th, even though I don’t know if she was consciously doing that.

CB: Right.

LS: So that was an interesting combination.

CB: So and this was a second Saturn return?

LS: This was a second Saturn return.

CB: Okay.

LS: Yeah.

CB: And as long as we have this calculated correctly – because I think this is one where we had a little bit of ambiguity, but I think we have it calculated correctly – there’s an interesting, due to the location shift here in terms of the house placement because Saturn – it’s early Gemini rising if we have it correct, and Saturn is in the 8th whole sign house. But the degree of the Midheaven is actually at 29 Capricorn conjunct Saturn at 25 Capricorn.

LS: Right.

CB: So that the Midheaven’s actually in the 8th whole sign house conjunct Saturn and making it a bit more prominent, and maybe importing some other significations.

LS: Right. Yeah, so I just thought that was a really interesting interplay that, you know, the person themselves was pointing out of intense freedom in the midst of severe restriction. And one, I felt like maybe there was like, that interplay of Saturn ruling both the 8th and the 9th during the transit. Maybe it was also something about Neptune simultaneously transiting the 10th house, and having sort of like, the freedom to just like, have absence of career for a while. Because she was kind of talking about not having to do the everyday grind.

CB: Right.

LS: But I also just wondered – it felt a little bit like that sort of older, wiser, Saturnian reflection of like, that there are internal experiences that you can have that are more positive even when there are external circumstances that you really would not prefer to happen.

CB: Yeah. It’s like, the saying – it’s only after you’ve lost everything that you’re free to do anything.

LS: Yeah. It just felt so much like that.

CB: Right.

LS: So I love those quotes.

CB: Yeah. That’s really good stuff; that makes a lot of sense.

LS: Yeah. I mean, and you can also note in the chart there’s like, a stellium of Scorpio planets, so there may be a bit of that deep-diving as well of sometimes people with a bunch of Scorpio planets have more of the experience of sort of going very deeply or going to the bottom and then coming back up and being able to do that and finding the ability to do that.

CB: Right. Definitely. And also she – they mentioned losing cats, and it’s worth mentioning that just, sometimes when 8th house transits happen and the experience of mortality comes up, that can come in many different forms —

LS: Right.

CB: — but that doesn’t necessarily make it less notable or less impactful on the native, because their reflection and process of dealing with mortality in their life at that time becomes part of what that transit’s about, and that can be meaningful in a number of different ways.

LS: Definitely. Okay, so that’s the 8th house example. Then I think we move to the 9th house after that with a Taurus rising example.

So this one is going to be Taurus rising with Saturn in the 9th house, and ruling the 10th house as well. And so those 9th house significations we talked about – foreign lands or travel, cross-cultural experiences, religion, philosophy, astrology traditionally, and then bringing in some of those 10th house significations of career, public reputation, what you’re known for, things of that nature.

CB: Right. And this is a first Saturn return, so we’re back to Neptune and Uranus being with Saturn, at least in the same sign. And then this person also has Mars there as well in a day chart.

LS: In a day chart, yes. Ruling the 7th house of partnership and 12th house of endings or loss or solitude.

So this person said they moved to the US in 2011 to study fashion and then got to work in the industry and got a work visa for that.

CB: And that would be like, Saturn in Libra, right?

LS: Yes. It would. So that was the waning Saturn —

CB: Waning square.

LS: — square before the first Saturn return, which is significant to the topics of the 9th house of foreign places.

CB: Yeah, and it also sets up the topic for the Saturn return as part of the ongoing Saturn story. So it’s just one —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — example where we’re not going through with most of these, but just how the Saturn return sometimes refers back to what happened earlier at the other hard aspects in the cycle.

LS: Definitely. So she wrote, “I finished my program in 2012, and in 2013 I was lucky enough to find a company that would sponsor my working visa so that I could stay here after I graduated and start my fashion career. Everything was going great. I have my dream job in my dream industry. But then,” she wrote that the work visa meant only being able to work for that one employer and no one else or not do anything on her own, and it also had to be renewed every three years with costly lawyer and filing fees every single time, that it was stressful to not have longer-term stability in terms of knowing that you could stay for a long time, and that she also couldn’t get a mortgage with a work visa. And so —

CB: I like, by the way, the signification there – fashion career – and that she has —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — Taurus rising with Venus in Aquarius in the 10th whole sign house.

LS: Yeah, yeah, me too. That’s perfect.

CB: Okay. Go back to the narrative.

LS: Okay. So much of the transit – so she wanted to try to get a green card to alleviate some of those problems that came with having to renew that work visa every three years and not being able to work for herself, not being able to work for any other employers, et cetera.

So much of the Saturn return transit was about her legal status. Filing the green card application, then the green card application taking longer than expected, which is a Saturn thing – delays, right? Delays. The 9th house is also the legal system oftentimes; we didn’t mention that earlier. So that’s very much significant to this particular example. And then when the green card application got delayed, then she had to hurry another work visa renewal and was very stressed out about that. So it was lots of 9th house legal and, yeah, legal status, basically.

CB: So is this in the Saturn return? Is this prior —

LS: Yeah. No, this is all during the Saturn return.

CB: Okay.

LS: And she thought, she said that her Saturn return experience would be about actually getting her green card. Also during her Saturn return, she was rethinking her career in fashion, which is interesting, of course, because Saturn is also ruling the 10th house of career even though it’s not transiting there quite yet.

CB: Okay.

LS: Except for the few months. She considered going to grad school for an MBA, but decided it wasn’t financially workable. And then she wrote, “In mid-June, I received very sad news that my green card application was denied. I kind of expected it, given how anti-immigrant the current government is. Still it was a big blow, since I asked myself, ‘Am I not good enough? Did I not work hard enough to deserve this?’ The officer reviewing my case was not convinced I deserved this. I just accepted the result, knowing that it may be part of my Saturn return story and Saturn emphasizing limitations.” And I was also noting that Mars is brought into the 9th house, which significantly colors that.

CB: Yeah, and a day chart because that means —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — the most difficult planet in the chart’s in the 9th house.

LS: Right. Exactly. Versus just Saturn.

CB: And we forgot to open this up by giving 10th house significations even though we shifted there, right?

LS: I said them, but we just didn’t picture them.

CB: Okay. Well —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — here’s the diagram. So 10th house – career, actions, reputation, public, and obviously that is combining and coming into relevance here with the 9th house in the context of this person’s chart.

LS: Yeah, the work visa. That’s very like, legal status tied to career.

CB: Yeah.

LS: “Around September, I decided to seriously pursue astrology since it’s something I’m so passionate about. I feel like now is the time to study. I can’t make money from other sources yet until I get my green card, but now is the time to set myself up so that in the future when I can legally have more than one source of income, I will have professional knowledge in astrology.” And so like, towards the end of her Saturn return, she decided to study astrology more seriously, which is also very like, Saturn in the 9th for study in general but also astrology specifically. And I think the implication is that you can try again. Basically, like, start the process over for the green card.

CB: Okay.

LS: And so there’s like, a possibility in the future; it’s just not happening during the Saturn return.

CB: I mean, that’s funny because you know, September – the timing, September of 2020, of course, a few months ago was when Saturn —

LS: Saturn —

CB: — stationed.

LS: Yeah.

CB: It made its last station at like, 25 Capricorn and started moving forward again. So that was the last time it would get as close as it could to her natal Saturn degree at 22 Capricorn.

LS: Exactly.

CB: Okay.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Oh, I guess actually on top of that, it also would have been stationing on the degree of her Midheaven at 24 Capricorn.

LS: Yeah. Exactly. All of that. Yeah. So that was it. I thought that was a very striking Saturn in the 9th example tied to the 10th house with the legal status, studying astrology, the legal status tied to career or work with Saturn ruling the 10th. Revisioning what you wanna do for work. Studying anew for that – all of those things.

CB: Yeah. Also the natal Mars-Saturn conjunction in Capricorn in the 9th whole sign house, but also conjunct the degree of the Midheaven and having that – that would be like, a very frustrating thing that’s like, taking a very long time and —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — having like, the gears of bureaucracy and how —

LS: Yes.

CB: — slowly they revolve, and then at the end of that to only get rejected, you know, unnecessarily —

LS: Right.

CB: — is a very like, Saturn-Mars type manifestation.

LS: Yeah. Things going more slowly than you expect to come about, frustration of ambitions, things of that nature.

CB: Right.

LS: Yeah. Though it’s important to note it hasn’t been only that, because she did actually was able to travel abroad to study, and then get into her career line successfully early on. And so it’s important to note that it wasn’t only those pieces in this person’s life experience.

CB: Definitely.

LS: Especially with the Ascendant ruler in the 10th really strongly placed. So that is that example.

And then we have 10th!

CB: So we’re switching to 10th house, 11th house groupings. So we’ve already mentioned our 10th house significations of career, actions, reputation, and public as opposed to 4th house, which is private. The 11th house significations traditionally are things like friends, groups, alliances, and hopes or wishes for the future.

LS: So this is gonna be an Aries rising chart for the next example. And Saturn placed in the 10th house – this is a day chart – Saturn in Capricorn in the 10th with Neptune and Uranus, also Mercury, Venus, and the Sun. So like, huge stellium in the 10th house in Capricorn.

So this one said during her Saturn return, she graduated from social work school and became a clinical practitioner. So career is just front and center during this Saturn return, as we would expect with it in the 10th house of career and public reputation. Later – and of course, notably, if Saturn is transiting the 10th, it’s right after Saturn transited the 9th of study. And so oftentimes, that does happen where people have a Saturn return in the 10th – it’s a culmination of what they’ve been already studying for the few years before that, which is the case here.

Also she said later in the Saturn return, she started sex therapy school, and I thought that was interesting because the Sun is also in Capricorn in the 10th ruling the 5th house, and sexuality is one of the 5th house topics, placed in the 10th house of career. So she was starting to bring in after she became licensed, she was also going to additionally study sex therapy to bring into her career with the ruler of the 5th in the 10th with her Saturn.

CB: Okay.

LS: Other things. She broke up with her partner of five years during her Saturn return, and Venus is the ruler of the 7th house of partnership, also placed in the 10th house with Saturn. So that’s also gonna be like, you know, when you get the ruler of the 7th, whether it’s Venus or not, with Saturn, then during the Saturn return, it is often like, a make or break. Like, you bring it to the next level – like, get engaged or something or get married – or you find irreconcilable differences and separate.

CB: Yeah, the classic testing phase.

LS: Yeah.

CB: And let’s mention the degrees really quickly, because they may be relevant here. So it’s like, 20 Aries rising for those listening to the audio version, and Saturn is at, what, 17 Capricorn. Venus is at 28 Capricorn, and the Sun is at 29 Capricorn.

LS: Right. So there’s a lot like, close together at the end there, middle to the end of the degrees.

CB: Yeah.

LS: And that was most of it. The last thing was also “I bought a house,” and Jupiter natally is in Cancer in the 4th whole sign house opposite that Saturn stellium, and we did, as we’ve mentioned, have those eclipses bouncing back and forth during this Saturn transit between Cancer and Capricorn, so there was movement in the 4th house of home and family, living situation, as well as the 10th house of career. And Jupiter is the most positive planet in a day chart, and it’s also exalted here in the 4th house. So she successfully got like, a new living situation during this time.

CB: Nice.

LS: Yeah.

CB: That’s pretty good. Okay. Well, that’s a good example of yeah, drawing in the rulers of the houses, having the ruler of the 5th in the 10th.

LS: Ruler of the 7th in the 10th as well.

CB: Ruler of the 7th in the 10th, and that becoming relevant in the Saturn return. And then also both the opposition of Saturn return opposing some of the 4th house planets, but also the eclipses and having growth in that area with the most positive benefic there.

LS: Definitely. So that’s our 10th house example.

CB: Okay. And that’s our one 10th house example, right?

LS: Yeah.

CB: Okay, so let’s transition into talking about the 11th house. So here’s our diagram for the 11th house, which is friends, groups, alliances, and hopes. And then when Capricorn is on the cusp of the 11th house, that means Aquarius and Saturn rules the 12th house as well, which is things like enemies, sickness, loss, seclusion, as well as presumably some more positive things.

LS: Yeah, positive solitude and —

CB: Okay. Solitude, that’s a good one.

LS: — sometimes solitary spiritual practices if it’s really positive 12th house.

CB: Got ya. All right. So let’s go to our 11th house example.

LS: Okay.

CB: Which is – is it this one?

LS: Yeah.

CB: It’s got a little bit of Capricorn in this chart.

LS: Right? So this is a Pisces rising chart with the Sun just above the Ascendant by a couple degrees, so this should be a day chart, with Saturn in Capricorn in the 11th house along with Uranus, Neptune, Mars, Venus, and the Moon! It’s quite a stellium there.

CB: Yeah. It’s like somebody sneezed on that part of the chart and there’s like, a bunch of Capricorn that’s all in that quadrant.

LS: That is not a positive explanation for that!

CB: All right, what is your analogy for the stellium? I mean, I say that somebody who has a similar-looking Scorpio stellium where it looks like —

LS: Right.

CB: — somebody sneezed on the top part of my chart in the 10th house.

LS: True.

CB: To be fair.

LS: Yes.

CB: What’s your —

LS: I was gonna say a beautiful painting where someone lovingly spent a lot of extra attention right there in that little quadrant.

CB: Right! I mean, that’s very similar to what I was saying!

LS: Totally! Okay, so the 11th house.

CB: Okay.

LS: So let me see the description here. Okay, this person wrote, “I don’t have an exciting story, but I’m just now realizing that the partner I met during this time period directly contributed to significantly isolating me from social life. A year and a half before covid, I started the most isolated period of my life up to this point, and basically had almost zero social life. I’ve also let go of a lot of past relationships during this time. Really looking forward to that constricted energy opening up.”

Okay, so that’s already – we have more, but that’s already interestingly evoking both the Saturn in the 11th of a restriction from social life during that placement being emphasized, as well as Saturn ruling the 12th house, and it actually lighting up the ruler of the 7th house of partnership in the 12th house, interestingly. So because Saturn is transiting – Saturn is ruling the ruler of the 7th here in the 12th house. So —

CB: Yeah, and you know, that’s a stellium in the 11th house already. So that was like, the initial paragraph that they sent me in the first email, and then I wrote asking for clarification, and I said something like, you know, prior to this transit, would you say that you were a very social person or that friends were important to you, having that many planets in the 11th house?

LS: Right.

CB: And they wrote back saying yes.

LS: Yeah. They wrote back saying – so elaborating a little more – “prior to the transit, I had a tendency to always go in and out of multiple social circles and groups,” which kind of reminds me of the Uranus in the 11th, honestly. “My life has always involved meeting a lot of new people everywhere I go, kind of that Aquarian Uranian energy too of being friends with all types of people from many different places. I had a lot of initiative in that regard, organizing events, hitting people up, et cetera. I do have Mars there as well, and the Moon wanting to play host. I also worked in the film industry, which is all about projects and working with a different group of people each time.” That’s kind of interesting. So there’s like, something structurally there about lots of different groups of people.

So let’s see. They also wrote, “Not sure how relevant this is to 11th house, but I also speak multiple languages, travel a lot. I’ve always had that foreign international influence in my life. During this transit, it’s like all of that suddenly came to a standstill. Like how we currently have no social life and opportunities to mingle with different people or to travel because of covid. My transit has basically been like an extended version of covid. I became a completely different person or rather started living a completely different (isolated) lifestyle. In terms of the 12th house, there has definitely been a major cleaning house energy in relation to my social groups. I have a feeling that going forward, my social circles will be entirely new and not the same ones I had before. I’ve let go of those attachments in favor of people that are more in alignment with my values and purpose.”

Yeah, so there’s a lot going on there. Obviously with the stellium there and with the rulerships of all of those other houses ruled by those planets in Capricorn, but you can just hear a lot of that Saturn in the 11th primarily.

CB: Yeah, that Saturn in the 11th, and just whatever that initial statement was of becoming much more isolated from starting the most isolated period of my life up to that point and basically having almost zero social life.

LS: Yeah.

CB: For which would be much more difficult for somebody with a lot of planets in the 11th house.

LS: Yeah, definitely. I mean, and it’s kind of interesting in that it’s a day chart example, and so normally you would think more constructive Saturn 11th house stuff going on. But there’s a pretty close applying Mars conjunction to Saturn, and Mars is the more challenging planet in a day chart.

CB: Yeah.

LS: So that’s an element of what’s going on here as well. But it’s also just like, Saturn transiting most of the planets in one’s chart at once within a few years, which I think is a lot of what I’m hearing in that description.

CB: Yeah. And then Pluto’s going over some at the same time, and then of course the covid lockdowns coincided with that huge pileup in Capricorn when Mars and Jupiter and Saturn were going through there.

LS: Right.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah. And so then there’s also those elements coming in of the rulership of the 12th house of solitude as well.

CB: Right. One of the things that’s interesting about this being a day chart is with like, Venus is there and Saturn’s ruling the Ascendant, and it’s in Cancer opposing that stuff. But I’ve seen some charts where I remember one chart really distinctly where it was just Saturn in the 11th house in a night chart, and the person didn’t – they sort of had an aversion to social groups, an aversion to making friends, and it didn’t really go for them or —

LS: Right.

CB: — they tended to avoid it. They were somebody – they were into astrology and did that as a career, but they didn’t like going to conferences, because they didn’t like being in large groups of people, and had – one of the things we actually haven’t talked about very much, but one of the modern significations of Saturn which comes up pretty often is like, fear. And Saturn in the 11th house in a night chart and the person had like, fears and a lot of trepidation surrounding friends and groups for different —

LS: Right.

CB: — reasons.

LS: Yeah.

CB: So it’s interesting with this one that that’s not, you know, being a day chart with Saturn in its own sign in the 11th house is much of an issue. It’s just it almost becomes this temporary period of the person’s life where that gets cut off and shut down temporarily partially due to the transit.

LS: Definitely. And there was another piece that was more long-term; they were evoking like, in the future, I have a feeling I’ll probably be friends with different people than I have in the past. And like, sort of reevaluating one’s friendships or friend groups and maybe leaving some behind, which is a pretty common Saturn return in the 11th, I’ve seen.

CB: Right.

LS: Yeah. The sort of natural ending of some friendships sometimes. And then, you know, sometimes when it’s more of a struggle with Saturn in the 11th, it’s like, the Saturn return period becomes about like, in more of what you were just talking about with the different example of having like, a push to figure this out. Like, how can I be in community? How can I have friendships or go to group events, you know, even if it’s really not comfortable for me?

CB: Right.

LS: So that can be another Saturn return in the 11th experience.

CB: Yeah. And then I like that they also used the word “letting go,” which is a good —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — common Saturn transit and especially Saturn return theme of letting go of something. And they said, “I’ve let go of a lot of past relationships during this time.”

LS: Right, exactly.

CB: Yeah. So that’s pretty good. All right, so that is our one 11th house example that we wanted to do, right?

LS: Yeah.

CB: Okay.

LS: And then I think we had a couple left from the plethora of 12th house ones earlier on.

CB: Okay.

LS: That we left for the end, which I believe are slides 18 and 19 if you wanna go back to that. And let me find those as well. Okay.

CB: What are the placements?

LS: So the first one should be —

CB: Is this it?

LS: Yeah. That one.

CB: Okay.

LS: Let me just grab that story again real quick. So this is going to be – so we’re kind of coming back full circle, almost full circle at this point. We mentioned a few of the 12th house ones at the very beginning because it was crossing over with the first house examples. And now we have a couple at the end here of more Aquarius rising where Saturn is ruling the first, but placed in the 12th house in Capricorn.

So this first one, she wrote at the beginning of her Saturn return, “lots of things needed to change in my life, but I just continued to run around in circles, unable to break free from the relationship I needed to break free from or from vicious cycle of procrastination and self-destructive habits. For example, I was a smoker and wanted to quit, but just couldn’t. I developed severe anxiety as well. I was lost, confused, unhappy with myself and my life. My self-esteem reached an all-time low. I was never a believer or spiritual person, but yoga had started to become a big part of my life.” So this starts to bring in the bodily habits and also the sort of solitude spiritual practice of the 12th. I see yoga sometimes come up in the 6th and the 12th, but sometimes it can be in the 12th when it’s more of a spiritually-oriented practice.

CB: Yeah. Also anxiety.

LS: Anxiety for sure 12th house, yeah.

CB: Like, kicking addictions. She actually mentions self-destructive habits and the smoking was an example.

LS: Right. So pretty on par so far with 12th house stuff. “I started going to psychotherapy and continued to go through the whole of 2018. It was a time of digging deep in my subconscious, my childhood wounding. I lost my father at age 12, et cetera. I craved loneliness and alone time a lot,” which is a quote I know you liked and pulled out there.

CB: Yeah, that was like, one of my favorite quotes that was sent in in this entire series of emails that we received of like, a hundred emails was – what was it again? Was that it? It was just like, a very brief sentence. It was just —

LS: “I craved loneliness and alone time a lot.”

CB: Yeah, “I craved loneliness and alone time a lot,” and that’s such a great 12th house signification that you don’t expect, and that’s very hard to articulate when you’re standing outside of it. But then all of a sudden when you’re inside of a heavy 12th house transit, you suddenly understand what that means, whether it’s a major Saturn transit like this or whether it’s like, a 12th house profection or other things like that. But just sometimes it can be forced on the person. Like, sometimes it’s like, compulsory, but other times, there can be a deep desire that comes from within the person to go within and to pull back.

LS: Definitely.

CB: Yeah.

LS: She wrote, “I tried to change a lot of things, but I could not let go of that relationship even though it was ruining my mental health. I could not let go of cigarettes, procrastination, and bad habits like that. I entered a PhD program, and I was becoming more and more drawn to spiritual stuff – yoga, meditation, zen Buddhism.” So again, there’s a bunch of 12th house sort of spiritual practice positive solitude pieces there. But also some of the self-undoing and struggling with that.

Then she wrote she was hospitalized for a month, and unexpectedly diagnosed with multiple sclerosis after developing some very weird symptoms over a period of time. And again, that’s the 12th house sort of less positive, you know, signification of chronic illness. She wrote, “In the hospital,” but she had some positive experiences nonetheless. “In the hospital, I experienced an epiphany. I felt free from my own shit. I did not smoke, not a single puff, from the 20th of June 2019. I started to love myself and care for myself, my body, and my health. I became very disciplined. Took some time off from PhD studies and from the world essentially. Soon the whole world took time off, so it was very easy for me to isolate, contemplate, reflect, and dedicate myself to changing my life. I have gained clarity, confidence, vision, purpose. I found myself again. I also found astrology in the period following my diagnoses. Spirituality became a huge focus in my life. It seems like my life was disintegrating up until May of 2019 when things culminated, and after that, things started to turn for the better – much better. And that happened because of all the hardships, not just in spite of them. My identity was falling apart. Everything was falling apart, until I was left with a blank slate to start all over.”

And I thought that was like, a beautiful evocative ending of the first house ruler in the 12th house.

CB: Yeah, that’s really good and really beautiful. So for those listening to the audio version, it’s Aquarius rising with Saturn at 18 degrees of Capricorn in the 12th house, somewhat loosely conjunct Uranus at five Capricorn and Neptune at 11 Capricorn. And this is a day chart Saturn.

LS: Right. So even though it was a day chart Saturn, you know, she still got a chronic diagnosis at that time, and yet also had a lot of the positives of 12th house significations – the positive spiritual practices, sort of positive letting go of things. Yeah. So and then lots of solitude. She did have hospitalization; that’s also a more concrete 12th house thing. But yeah, I just love the end of it, and she also – I was noting she said, “It seems my life was disintegrating up until May of 2019 when things culminated, and after that, things turned for the better.” And that was actually close to one of the exact degree returns.

CB: Okay.

LS: Around May 2019.

CB: Nice.

LS: Yeah. So yeah. That’s kind of like, I mean, it’s not a best-case scenario in terms of like, no one wants a chronic diagnosis, but in terms of like, personal development, it sounded particularly positive for her. And the kind of – and you know, I flagged this several examples back, but also the positives of disintegrating something that’s old and needs to sort of fall apart in order to rebuild in a healthier or more revised, more authentic fashion for who you are at this point in time.

CB: Yeah. Letting go of that which you need to let go of in order to begin again anew.

LS: Right. And it is just interesting that at the end, she was actually specifically referencing that her identity was falling apart with it ruling the first in the 12th.

CB: I like that. So yeah, like, not that extreme, but like —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — ego death or loss of self.

LS: Right. Until she was left with a blank slate to start all over, which is like, a very – you know, it’s one of the more positive sort of outcomes of a Saturn transit.

CB: That’s good. So ruler of first house of self in the 12th house of loss and loss of self.

LS: Exactly.

CB: That’s good.

LS: So that’s a great example. Thank you for contributing.

CB: Yeah, thanks a lot for that. That also brings up – one of the other things it emphasizes how sometimes you have that axis of the 12th and the 6th and the differentiation between the two where based on the planetary joys scheme, I tend to associate – well, there’s two distinctions. One of them is like, 6th house is more short-term injuries and 12th house is more long-term chronic ailments as tendencies, let’s —

LS: Right.

CB: — just say. Just tendencies; it doesn’t always have to go that way, because you can find one or the other in both.

LS: Yeah.

CB: But then also sometimes the 6th house being typically, due to the joys, more physical ailments versus I think in ancient astrology, the houses were originally conceptualized as the 12th maybe having more to do with what they conceptualized at the time as like, spiritual or psychic or intellectual ailments of the mind sometimes. So the mention of severe anxiety to me —

LS: Right.

CB: — reminded me of sometimes the 12th house and sometimes sort of like, mental ailments or I’m not sure how else to put that.

LS: Yeah, like mental health challenges, you know, whether at whatever level of severity or not severity, I definitely see more in the 12th than the 6th. I see physical ailments actually go in both, and you can see she had both in the 12th.

CB: Right.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Yeah.

LS: But yeah, definitely the anxiety – that’s a 12th house thing.

CB: Okay.

LS: And we have one last one.

CB: Oh yeah. So we have one more to end the 12th house with.

LS: Yes. So this is gonna be another Aquarius rising, Saturn in the 12th in Capricorn. This is a second Saturn return, so no copresence of Uranus and Neptune. This actually is Saturn in the 12th in between both benefics. Jupiter is earlier in Capricorn, and Venus is slightly after Saturn and in a day chart.

So this is like, a fairly positive-looking 12th house, just at the outset without hearing anything. And this is kind of a quick and fun example. This person wrote, “After years of intense involvement with a horse barn, this last January when my Saturn return went exact, something flipped and I just couldn’t stand being there anymore. Then I read that traditionally, the 12th house rules large animals. Strange but true!” And that’s, you know, possibly the most fun 12th house Saturn return example I’ve ever heard of!

CB: Yeah, although she experienced it as just like, “I have to get away from this” —

LS: Yes.

CB: — “and I don’t wanna be here anymore” and —

LS: Absolutely.

CB: It’s funny because she has the benefics there, so it was something she I guess had enjoyed up until that point —

LS: Right.

CB: — but then also we have Mars opposing natally in a day chart pretty close to the degree. Like, Mars is at 17 —

LS: True.

CB: — Cancer in the 6th opposing Saturn at 16 Capricorn in the 12th. And suddenly like, wanting to get out of that and no longer wanting to – wanting to let go of —

LS: Right.

CB: — that. And we think that’s funny and it’s funny as astrologers just because the 6th house is traditionally associated with pets, and one of the funny weird significations you often see in traditional texts, I think going back even in like, Rhetorius I wanna say in the 6th or 7th century says that large animals are assigned to the 12th house. Like, horses and stuff.

LS: Right.

CB: And it’s one of those significations that you read in translations, and that just seems like, weird, and why is that assigned there? And what good is that? And then sometimes you get an example chart like this, and it’s actually very relevant.

LS: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and this isn’t the first I’ve seen of that kind of example. Yeah, and I thought it was a great example for both of those reasons that, you know, with Saturn in a day chart with both the benefics in the 12th, this was something that she said, “After years of intense involvement there,” and so this was an area of life that she had committed a lot of time and energy towards and that was like, a positive for a while for a long time for her. But then there was, you know, the next cycle. And even things that have been positive or you’ve invested a lot into sometimes you feel differently when the Saturn return comes around. And so yes. Thus leaving the horse barn.

CB: Right. Which —

LS: I love it.

CB: — applies to other areas, because sometimes that happens in like, all the different areas sometimes because it’s the ending of the cycle, you find yourself – and sometimes people don’t anticipate it. They —

LS: Right.

CB: — just like, get to the Saturn return and then all of a sudden, there’s something that they’d always taken for granted that suddenly either they want to leave and end or that leaves them and ends for some reason. And sometimes —

LS: Right.

CB: — if it’s like, Saturn in the 7th, that can be a relationship or Saturn in the 10th, it can be career. Saturn in the 4th, it can be a living situation. But then suddenly you find yourself there sometimes yourself intentionally wanting to leave that thing.

LS: Right.

CB: And get out of the horse barn, so to speak.

LS: I’m gonna use that analogy from now on.

CB: Okay.

LS: Yeah.

CB: Nobody will understand.

LS: No, no they won’t!

CB: Except everyone that listens to the podcast.

LS: Yeah. Exactly.

CB: All right.

So that is our examples. So we’ve done it. We’ve somehow gone through all 12 houses.

LS: All of them.

CB: All right, let’s quickly transition into what for some bizarre reason we were gonna mention like, the Saturn in Aquarius stuff we were looking forward to, and we were going to mention other resources.

LS: Right.

CB: So let’s transition. Saturn in Aquarius, the age of Saturn in Aquarius is about to begin.

LS: Right! We can agree on that.

CB: The age of Saturn in Aquarius.

LS: Yeah.

CB: When is it starting?

LS: So the Saturn return in Aquarius actually started already as of March 21st, 2020. It dipped in for a few months there from late March until July 1st of this year. So there was a little preview, and technically, you know, in the way that we approach Saturn returns, that means that everyone with Saturn in Aquarius natally, your Saturn return has already started upon that ingress.

CB: Yeah.

LS: And we’ve seen that, actually, in lots of charts. Like, evidenced by things suddenly being in process related to those Saturn returns.

CB: Right. So that was the beginning, and for some people if you have like, Saturn at very early Aquarius, like the first degree or two, that might have even been the most intense part for you. But in terms of the broader scheme, Saturn in Aquarius people, your Saturn return begins – it began back in late March of 2020, and it ends three years later on March 7th of 2023. So that’s the next crop of Saturn returns that we’re looking for. We’ve already got our eyes, as we always do, on some upcoming celebrity ones that are coming up. But let’s see before we get to that – so it’s gonna begin in full on December 17th here in the next week. One of the things that’s nice for this phase of it is in the spring, like earlier this year in 2020, it kind of sucks that Mars went into Aquarius at the same time, so it was kind of a —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — rough beginning —

LS: Definitely.

CB: — for many of the people with Saturn in Aquarius. Luckily, the good news is that Jupiter is gonna move into Aquarius this month in December of 2020, and it’s gonna spend most of the first year of Saturn fully in Aquarius going through that sign. So that should help to like, moderate some of the Saturn return experience for the first year.

LS: Absolutely. And especially for day chart people, but to some extent for everyone, because Jupiter sort of expands and brings opportunities, versus Saturn constraining and requiring more hard work. So it’s a little bit more tempering of the first full year of the Saturn transit in Aquarius, and particularly compared to the Mars-Saturn transit in the spring. So if your Saturn return did start in the spring in Aquarius, don’t worry that it’s always gonna be as rough as it might have been for you in the spring. It will probably be a bit better than that.

CB: Yeah, definitely.

All right, some of the Saturn returns coming up I’m looking forward to personally – Miley Cyrus has Saturn in Aquarius. I believe she is Taurus rising with Saturn in the 10th house, pretty well bonified. So I think that’s gonna be a good one. I’m betting on more constructive Saturn return even if some setbacks initially, it being like, a growth and coming into a new phase of adulthood which is kind of interesting in terms of seeing sort of child stars who try to make that transition into becoming successful as adults in a specific industry, and some are successful and some are not successful. But I think that’ll be a pretty decent one.

LS: And remember all of these for Saturn in Aquarius examples are again gonna be Saturn in its own sign. So these two whole cohorts have a little bit of a leg up on the Saturn return.

CB: Right. So let’s see, what else? Just really quickly, like, Frances Bean Cobain is another Saturn return story that’s coming up in Aquarius. Some of these I’m just mentioning because it’s kind of weird, because I feel old that, you know, that’s my Saturn transit of the people that from when we were younger were just like, babies are now in their Saturn returns.

LS: Right.

CB: And that’s kind of weird.

LS: Well, I feel even older, because these aren’t even people I’ve been tracking, so!

CB: Oh, you have no idea who these people are?

LS: Oh, I mean, I know who they are, but.

CB: Who is Kurt Cobain? So yeah. So another one I know you’ve had your eye on for a while is the Vice President Elect.

LS: Yes, Kamala Harris has her Saturn return having started in the 9th house, which is interesting because government can sometimes go there.

CB: Well, and then —

LS: Politics.

CB: — we have an interesting then trade-off, because it means the person who’s about to be the vice president starting in January is having their Saturn return start, and then the outgoing Vice President, Mike Pence, had Saturn I believe in early Capricorn —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — so his Saturn return is just ending as he’s leaving office.

LS: Right.

CB: So it’s kind of an interesting trade-off.

LS: Yeah. The beginnings and endings, again, coming back to Saturn significations.

CB: Yeah. Next one?

LS: So Ralph Nader is another one coming up —

CB: Oh yeah.

LS: — that I think you wrote.

CB: That’s a third Saturn return.

LS: Jim Carrey.

CB: Well, Michelle Obama is one —

LS: Oh! Oh, I missed that.

CB: — you’re looking for that, right?

LS: Yeah, Michelle Obama, which is interesting because it’s right after her husband’s.

CB: Right.

LS: You know? And that’s gotta be rough. That’s like, a six-year span of each of them having Saturn returns in succession. But it’s interesting that she actually already wrote a memoir, so I’m actually – during the Saturn in Capricorn transit – but she has the Sun in Capricorn, so it kind of makes sense.

CB: Okay.

LS: So I’m curious what her actual Saturn return will look like.

CB: Yeah, and we don’t have her birth time, so we don’t know what houses it’s in.

LS: No. Some of these we don’t have any real specifics. Yeah.

CB: We just know in general.

LS: Right.

CB: So comedian Jim Carrey’s gonna have his second Saturn return. World chess champion Garry Kasparov is gonna have his – it can’t be third, so it must be second —

LS: Must be second.

CB: — Saturn return. Comedian Conan O’Brien is gonna have his second Saturn return. Roman Polanski – there’s two that actually might not go well. Roman Polanski and Johnny Depp are both gonna have their – Polanski’s gonna have his third and Johnny Depp his second Saturn return.

LS: Yeah.

CB: That could be tricky. The worldwide web I’ve talked about a lot this year, because I saw – we already saw some instances of it when Saturn first dipped into Aquarius in the spring, and some interesting challenges coming up in terms of the internet in terms of like, regulation and —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — what are the rules and the free flow of information. But the worldwide web, like, the first website was launched with Saturn in Aquarius. So we’re having a Saturn return of that now, and it’s been interesting. I just recently – because Google, for example, or YouTube has banned some videos having to do with like, covid denialism and now I think recently banned videos that are disputing the election and stuff like that. And it’s interesting —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — seeing companies on the internet putting rules and restrictions like that. And then there’s sometimes reactions to that —

LS: Right.

CB: — with people going to different platforms, and it’ll be interesting to see that play out over the course of the next three years.

LS: Right, with Aquarius kind of being the Saturn-ruled air sign about like, social systems and how we navigate those.

CB: Yeah, exactly. So that’ll be interesting. You pointed out that the United States Constitution has Saturn in Aquarius?

LS: It does! And I think that will be – I mean, of course, it’s had Saturn returns before every approximate 30 years, but I think that coinciding with the Pluto return of the US may be more important.

CB: Right. The European Union, Saturn in Aquarius, and that’s interesting and of course, you know, we had Brexit a few years ago.

LS: Right.

CB: And some of that’s fully going into place.

LS: Exactly.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah. Like, during Saturn in Aquarius will be going fully into place.

CB: Okay. And then one of the ones that you had followed this year that was sad was Ruth Bader Ginsburg had Saturn in Aquarius.

LS: And that’s one of those instances where you could see it starting already, and sometimes with people’s third Saturn returns, you know, people are in their late 80s at that point. So no matter where it’s placed in the chart, that can, you know, the limits of physical manifestation can sometimes weigh on the human body at that point.

CB: Right.

LS: So in other words, a physical decline for some people.

CB: Yeah. There was like, Ram Dass had Cancer rising with Saturn in the 7th house and ruling the 8th house, and he passed away very close to his exact Saturn return in Capricorn. I didn’t use him as an example here, but —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — was one like that sort of similar.

LS: Right.

CB: All right. We’ve done it; we’ve made it to the end of this, our Saturn returns in Capricorn retrospective. We’ll return again like we did – we did our last one exactly three years ago in December of 2017.

LS: Wow.

CB: So with any luck, we’ll be back in three years to check in with the Saturn in Aquarius people – the Saturn in Aquarius folks – and see how this three-year period treated them. So take your notes over the next three years and document it, and good luck and let us know, you know, at the end of that how things go and perhaps we’ll feature you on the show if we make it back here to do this again.

LS: In three years!

CB: Thanks to all of the people who sent in —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — examples. That was great. We appreciate you. Sorry we didn’t get back to everybody; it didn’t even really – I wasn’t even able to respond to everybody that we ended up using, so I hope —

LS: Right.

CB: — everybody sees this. Feel free to comment below if your story was used if you want to expand on it in any way. And thanks to everyone who wrote in just in general.

Further resources for study – so there’s Leisa and I did an old blog, like I mentioned, called SaturnReturnStories.com – still a bunch of good articles and news and other information and like, informational things there about how to calculate your Saturn return, Saturn return start and end dates for different signs, as well as a long article for interpreting Saturn returns.

LS: And tips for going through your Saturn return, particularly your first.

CB: Yeah. You have a lecture on Saturn returns and sect that has lots of good example charts and goes into interpretative principles surrounding that that’s really good, as well as mitigating conditions, that I would recommend people check out if they wanna learn more about our approach to this. I’ll put a link to that in the description below this video or on the podcast website.

In terms of other episodes of The Astrology Podcast, I’d recommend checking out episode 24 on TheAstrologyPodcast.com or just google “understanding your Saturn return the astrology podcast” and you’ll find episode 24 of The Astrology Podcast, which was titled “Understanding Your Saturn Return.” It was one of the very early episodes of the podcast, and it was —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — like, recorded on a voice recorder like, between us —

LS: Yeah!

CB: — sitting on —

LS: On the carpet!

CB: — our living room floor, so it’s —

LS: Yeah. It was way back when vintage episode.

CB: Vintage, old school Astrology Podcast, but that one has some really good information of all of the principles that we just demonstrated and applied here in practice.

Also check out episode 131, titled “Saturn Return in Sagittarius Retrospective,” and that one does have better audio as well as a video version, so you can find that on YouTube. We did that with Patrick Watson, and that was our similar retrospective, although I think we did a better job here because we were somehow a little bit more prepared. But that was still an interesting one for Saturn returns in Sagittarius.

Other things – last things for resources, check out my book titled Hellenistic Astrology: The Study of Fate and Fortune, which you can get on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or other bookstores everywhere. There’s also a Google Books version if you want to learn the basics of the approach to astrology that we outlined in this episode, which is basically Hellenistic astrology mixed with some modern astrology. So you can learn more about that in my book.

And finally, my online course in ancient astrology called the Hellenistic Astrology course, which is available at TheAstrologySchool.com where I use lots of examples just like this to teach the techniques by showing real-life charts and then talking through how things worked out in people’s individual lives. So there’s like, 13 lectures like this one that go into detail about how to interpret charts, looking at the rulers of the houses, bonification and maltreatment conditions, and also a bunch of timing techniques like profections and zodiacal releasing, which are also really important for looking at techniques like Saturn returns.

All right. I think that’s it for this episode. Thanks a lot for doing this with me.

LS: Yeah! Quite welcome.

CB: Yeah. So we did it. All right, and yeah, so we’re basically just teaching workshops here at this point —

LS: Yes!

CB: — so I want to thank all the patrons who support our work here on The Astrology Podcast, because they’re the ones that support and fund this and allow us to be able to do this work and set aside not doing consultations or other things so we can like, teach what has become in the show like, a free workshop series of four episodes a month for the public, and then two private episodes just for patrons. So thanks to all our patrons that support this and make it happen.

If you use this material and find it useful and you’re basically learning from us, consider donating or becoming a patron in order to support our work and so we can continue to expand our efforts by doing things like getting better equipment, doing transcripts. Last month I hired somebody to make a sign language version of one of my videos.

LS: Oh yeah, that was cool.

CB: So trying to make things more accessible to everybody, including foreign language translations. So consider signing up for that on our page on Patreon. And I think that’s it.

LS: I think that’s it!

CB: Any final thoughts?

LS: No.

CB: No?

LS: No. Good wishes to all the people going into their Saturn returns, whether first, second, or third, in Aquarius. Congratulations to all the people who are now finishing their Saturn return in Capricorn by the time this episode comes out probably.

CB: Yeah, congratulations and happy graduation. I think you said somebody was doing like, Saturn in Capricorn graduation —

LS: Yeah.

CB: — or something.

LS: Like, an actual Zoom party for that, which is like, lovely.

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah.

CB: I like that. All right, well, congratulations, Saturn in Capricorn people. Thanks to everyone who sent in examples. Thanks for watching this video. Please be sure to like and subscribe on YouTube, and we’ll be back again with Saturn in Aquarius in like, three years!

LS: Yeah! See you then!

CB: All right. Thanks everyone for watching, and we’ll see you again next time.

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