The Astrology Podcast

Transcript of Episode 511, titled:

The 5th House in Astrology, Part 3: The Ruler of the 5th House

With Chris Brennan and Leisa Schaim

Episode originally released on November 5, 2025

Original episode URL:

https://theastrologypodcast.com/2025/11/05/the-5th-house-in-astrology-part-3-ruler-of-the-5th-house/

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Note: This is a transcript of a spoken word podcast. If possible, we encourage you to listen to the audio or video version, since they include inflections that may not translate well when written out. Our transcripts are created by human transcribers, and the text may contain errors and differences from the spoken audio. If you find any errors then please send them to us by email: theastrologypodcast@gmail.com

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Transcribed by Teresa “Peri” Lardo

Transcription released November 16th, 2025

Copyright © 2025 TheAstrologyPodcast.com

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CHRIS BRENNAN: Hey. My name is Chris Brennan, and you’re listening to The Astrology Podcast. In this episode, astrologer Leisa Schaim is joining me, and we’re gonna be looking at the ruler of the 5th house in each of the 12 houses in astrology. So hey, Leisa; welcome back. 

LEISA SCHAIM: Hey Chris. Glad to be here. 

CB: Yeah. So this is our 3rd installment in this series – part three of three – where we’ve been talking about the significations and the meaning of the 5th house in astrology. And in the first video, we did a deep dive into discussing the meaning and significations and symbolism of the 5th house. Then in the 2nd video, we looked at a bunch of example charts of people that had the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th house and how that showed up in their life and life events. So in this 3rd part, we’re gonna continue that by looking at the ruler of the 5th house when it’s placed in each of the 12 houses and how that imports 5th house significations into other houses and into other areas of the chart, which sometimes creates a strong connection symbolically between what this 5th house signifies and what other houses signify in the chart, which then in turn gives us a much better understanding of what the 5th house means. And this is actually – I think for both of us, this is where it becomes really interesting when we get to the rulers of the houses, right? 

LS: Yeah, I think this is actually the most interesting part. I mean, obviously the Ascendant ruler is really primary in showing how these show up as like, really 5th house focused people. But it just gets a lot more interesting and complex when you bring in all the different houses connecting with the 5th house, because it just shows a much greater range of specific subtopics connected with the 5th house and how that plays out in different people’s lives and biographies.

CB: Yeah. So and this is where it gets more highly specific, because in the previous episode, it was like, with the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th house, it’s saying something almost like, more universal about the person’s life as a whole. But here it gets much more specific when you see crossovers between two parts of the life and how when that happens it can create much more highly specific delineations involving the 5th house. 

LS: Yeah. Absolutely. So I think we have a wealth and breadth of different types of examples to show you today.

CB: Yeah, for sure. 

All right. So why don’t we jump right into it then instead of wasting any time and get right to the example charts? 

LS: Okay. Sounds good. 

CB: All right, so our first example chart is the birth chart of Queen Marie Antoinette. So Marie Antoinette was born with Cancer rising, and the Sun and Venus in Scorpio in the 5th whole sign house, and it’s ruled by Mars, which is placed in the sign of Cancer in the first whole sign house, the sign that has to do with the body and physical vitality. And it has an opposition from Saturn, which is in Capricorn in the 7th house, the place of relationships and partners and marriage, in a night chart. So that Saturn is the most difficult planet. And the thing that’s really interesting about Marie Antoinette’s biography is that she got married to her husband, who was the future king, and then he had some sort of issue; it’s sometimes speculated like, a medical issue that might have made it painful for him to have sex. And as a result of that, they didn’t have sex for years, or didn’t have – I should say – they didn’t have a child for years. And that was one of the primary things that marriage was supposed to produce at that point in time was an heir to the throne. And so her identity – it caused a lot of bad things and pressure for her, because her identity was partially wrapped up in that, and became partially wrapped up in them not being able to have children or her not being able to carry his children. 

LS: Right. Like, essentially with the ruler of the 5th in the first, part of the point of her life after she married was that she was supposed to produce a child, and that was like, a primary part of her basic identity to other people anyway. And you can see that opposition to Saturn in the 7th house with regard to her husband having some sort of difficulties that made it such that they didn’t have a child for like, seven or so more years, which was not really normal at the time. 

But it’s also interesting, though, that the ruler of the 5th in the first and she was simultaneously known as someone who really loved pleasure, right? 

CB: Right. Throwing parties? 

LS: Throwing parties. So and that was part of one of the things that she got in trouble with, you know, eventually at the time in terms of the greater population was like, she was seen as frivolously wasting the money. 

CB: Sure. Yeah. And then with – yeah, that’s a really good point just in terms of that and the public perception of that. And then even when they did have children eventually, I think after like, seven years, it took seven years eventually – which is interesting, because that’s like, a Saturn square for them to have their first child. She experienced two miscarriages and also the loss of two of her children in infancy due to childhood illness as well as later a loss of another child who was imprisoned and died of tuberculosis probably much later. So it’s like, there’s just a lot of really challenging stuff here involving children, but because the ruler of the Ascendant is wrapped up in the first house, it becomes part of her like, identity in some sense. And yeah, so it’s kind of tricky. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. 

LS: So I think that one makes sense.

CB: Yeah. So I think those are the main ones about that one. So to keep things moving since we have more than like, 50 chart examples today, we’ll move on even though there’s more that could be said. 

All right. So the next birth chart example I wanted to use is for Dr. Ruth Westheimer, who was known in like, popular culture as Dr. Ruth as like a… She would give like, sex advice, especially on radio shows and other interviews and things like that. Especially in like, the 1990s when I grew up, she was just a really famous sex-oriented doctor. But it was funny because she was like, a much older woman at that point in time. So she was like, an old lady, but she was sometimes like, talking – she had no reservations about talking about intimate stuff. And so sometimes it was kind of wild seeing this old lady like, talking about different sexual things like that or like, sex toys or what have you. 

LS: Right. So she had Gemini rising with the ruler of the 5th, which is Libra, Venus in Gemini on the Ascendant, pretty close to the Ascendant, in the first house in what looks like to be a night chart, although the Sun’s getting close to the Ascendant. But yeah, it’s really perfect. She had a 1980 New York radio call-in show called Sexually Speaking, and it became nationally syndicated due to its popularity. And yeah, you’re right – she was an older lady at the time that she became super famous. She was also really tiny. She was very short. And so it just looked really funny – this like, tiny old woman who was just like, very enthusiastically and freely talking about sex and giving advice about that. 

CB: Yeah. Well, and it was like, so Libra’s on the 5th house, and Venus is ruling the 5th house, and it’s placed almost very close to the degree of the Ascendant. But it’s like, she had Mercury ruling the Ascendant, and it’s in Cancer conjunct Pluto and like, squaring Mars. So that’s like, her very open communication style where she didn’t like, hold back or anything like that, and she didn’t avoid going into darker topics or other things like that, or taboo topics, I should say. But I just thought it was funny that her identity very much became wrapped up in her talking about sex and just having the ruler of the 5th in Gemini conjunct the degree of the Ascendant. 

LS: Absolutely. 

CB: Yeah. All right. So moving onto my next example. The next one’s a more recent example from like, social media. And this is the birth chart of Dan Bilzerian, who’s like, a famous primarily Instagram person who has millions of followers on Instagram over the past decade. And he’s known as kind of like, a playboy or something like that where a large part of his media persona is that he just like, constantly has women around him – like, 20 different women around him – and he’s… In the last example, we talked about Wilt Chamberlain who reported in his biography with the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th that he had sex with over 20,000 women. And this guy, Dan Bilzerian, is kind of like the modern equivalent of that, even though I don’t know what the like, numbers are, but in terms of his public perception that he puts out there and his identity is wrapped up in, a large part of it is that he constantly has a lot of women around and that he is constantly throwing these lavish parties, which sounds like a minor point, but it was a recurring theme that kept coming up with the 5th house is parties and people throwing parties. So he has Libra rising, and he has Aquarius on the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler is Saturn which is conjunct the degree of the Ascendant at eight degrees of Libra – Saturn – and seven degrees of Libra is the Ascendant, and then Jupiter is at six degrees of Libra, so it’s a triple conjunction right there. And what’s interesting about this is his Sun is in the 3rd house, so this is a night chart. So Saturn is also his most challenging or his most difficult planet. And previously, we talked about how he’s reported to be worth like, a lot of money, and he claimed to have won it from poker, and that’s one of the major things that he does do is play poker against very high-stakes games, which is interesting into the 5th house. But then it’s kind of tricky, because we talked about in the 4th house episode how the ruler of the 5th is also the ruler of the 4th, and there were questions about – his father went to jail at one point for like, financial crimes. And there were questions at one point whether his father had set aside a bunch of money for him and if he had inherited some of that at some point. But it’s not really clear if that’s the case or not, but it’s been speculated on. But so that’s a relevant piece. So there’s a poker piece; there’s a partying – very lavish, huge parties – piece. And then the final piece is that with Saturn being contrary to the sect conjunct the degree of the Ascendant as the most difficult planet, when he was in his 20s, he was partying so hard that he was also taking drugs. And then one night, he was doing cocaine and he was partying and having sex with many different people, and then he took Viagra, and it caused him to have two different heart attacks I think in the same night or in the same 24-hour period or something like that. So he literally almost died, almost killed himself from like, one – partying too hard and then also from things related to sex. Like, nearly dying while one was having sex.

LS: I was gonna say that’s hilarious. I mean, of course, you know, not good for anyone to have a heart attack and die, but the circumstances are just very like, ruler of the 5th on the Ascendant as the malefic contrary to sect – even though it is exalted, so maybe that’s part of him not in fact dying. 

CB: Yeah. That there’s some mitigation. I actually looked for, you know, when I was researching the 5th and 8th house connections, like, people that died with sex, and I only found one of them. I’m sure there’s many more out there, but I wasn’t able to find any timed charts. So let me know if anybody knows any good timed charts for that. But this person, you know, came somewhat close, I guess, at that point, so that’s the closest we got. 

LS: We do have one in the 8th house section. 

CB: Okay. So yeah, so that’s the symbolism there with the ruler of the 5th in the first house. The first house is the body and the physical vitality that there could be a challenge to the vitality related to 5th house matters, and that was part of what came up with him. 

All right. So that is that example, and moving onto my next one, which is… Right. Gianna Jessen. So now we move into a different sort of tone with things. So this is the birth chart of Gianna Jessen. And this is one that I found years ago on AstroDatabank that I’ve always been fascinated by for multiple reasons in terms of the placements. But Gianna Jessen is an anti-abortion activist, and she was born during a failed late term abortion attempt, basically. And as a result of that, she grew up and then became an anti-abortion activist basically, and that part of her identity is very much wrapped up in that. 

So there’s several different things going on here in the chart. I mean, one of them that’s really important is that the chart is Aries rising, and the ruler of the Ascendant is Mars in the 12th house. And going back to like, the 6th century with Rhetorius of Egypt, he says that the 12th house is matters that happen prior to birth, especially in the process of giving birth, because that sign was the sign that was rising in the hour or two before the person was born. So it’s really interesting that the ruler of the Ascendant, the planet that says something about the native’s overall focus and life direction, is like, in the house that represents matters that were happening as you were being born or brought into the world, essentially. And it’s like, Mars in a day chart there in the 12th house. So that’s very relevant. But the other piece to this is she has Aries rising, and Leo is the 5th whole sign house, and Saturn is placed there. And then the ruler of the 5th house is the Sun, which is at 16 degrees of Aries in the first whole sign house conjunct her retrograde Venus also at 16 degrees of Aries. So it’s like, the ruler of the 5th house of children and pregnancy and childbirth and all this other stuff is in the first house of identity, and therefore her identity has become wrapped up in her views about abortion and things like that. 

LS: Right. Yeah. And as we’ll see later, it’s interesting – you can see both pro and anti-abortion people who make that like, a prominent part of their lives with important 5th house connections. 

CB: Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s really important is like, just regardless of what your views are or exploring that in terms of that, like, I wouldn’t agree with this person politically, but you could see where they – in terms of their personal story – are coming from, and how their chart speaks to that. And it’s interesting that as a case study to understand that as a different aspect of the 5th house that sort of comes into play. 

LS: For sure. Yeah. And she has Mars ruling the Ascendant in the 12th, as you said, and there’s other people that we’ve seen the charts of who there was a similar story of their mother wanted to get an abortion or something like that but then didn’t or couldn’t, and a bunch of them had like, the Ascendant ruler in the 12th, even if it wasn’t Mars. It’s still an interesting like, negation of the life force, you know, as part of the life story. 

CB: Right. Or just that that was a potential before birth or something — 

LS: Right. 

CB: — like that. I mean, there’s other things going on here as well, like the ruler of the 4th is in the 8th, and so — 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: — on and so forth. But anyway. To keep things moving, let’s move onto our next chart here, otherwise we’re gonna be here for the next few days. 

LS: Yes. 

CB: The next one is Norma McCorvey, right? 

LS: Yes. And that is one – you know, we were sitting there sort of brainstorming at various points while we were doing this research, and I was suddenly like, oh, do we have the chart of the Roe v. Wade woman? And somehow there’s a timed chart. So Norma McCorvey was the plaintiff at the center of the Roe v. Wade case that for about 50 years legalized abortion in the United States, and then it got overturned a few years ago. Yeah, she’s Scorpio rising, and she has Jupiter ruling the 5th house of Pisces placed in Scorpio in the first house, just about four degrees from the Ascendant. And so she’s another ruler of the 5th in the first example where you can see that as the plaintiff of the Roe v. Wade case, even if she did other things in her life, what became central to who she was known as – as her identity – was like, very connected with 5th house reproductive topics, right? Reproductive rights. And later supposedly, she became religious and anti-abortion, but then at the end of her life, she said she was being paid for that, and she actually still held views in line with abortion rights, which is very strange. And I noticed when I read that that Jupiter rules in her chart not only the 5th house, but also the 2nd house, placed in the first. And I was like, that’s actually plausible, right? That she was being paid for that, because you know, in some way, the houses in the chart that are ruled by the same planet are often connected somehow at some point in the life. 

Anyway, she did notably change her story at different times. And you noticed when we were — 

CB: Right. 

LS: — talking about this that she has a Mercury-Neptune kind of, you know, seven-degree conjunction in the 12th house. 

CB: Yeah. There was just a lot of like, story changes when I was reading the Wikipedia biography. 

LS: Right. But you know, nonetheless, the ruler of the 5th in the first and things about reproductive rights – pro-abortion, anti-abortion – those just became very primary to her life story. 

CB: Yeah. So her identity became wrapped up in this case, and then the thing about the case was that she wanted to have an abortion. She was in Texas, and was denied, but she ended up having the child. So — 

LS: Right. 

CB: — the child in the Roe v. Wade case, which I didn’t realize until we were researching this, was actually born, and that’s a chart that we’ll look at later that’s also very relevant. But in terms of it’s just crazy that one of the biggest like, landmark cases in the United States of the 20th century involving abortion and the right to abortion and whether a pregnancy essentially can be aborted and if a person has the choice to do so and then the courts decided, at least at that point, that they did – it was a matter of personal choice – has the ruler of the 5th house of children and pregnancy in the first house of self and identity and you in the chart, basically. 

LS: Right. And just a point further, you know, oftentimes if you look at the house ruler placement and then you look at the ruler of that placement to see further pieces of the story, and in fact, hers is the ruler of the 5th house of children and reproduction is that Jupiter in Scorpio in the first, and that in turn is ruled by Mars in Cancer in the 9th house of the legal system. So it really connects those three topics very neatly. 

CB: Yeah, absolutely. We — 

LS: She was like, known as the plaintiff in a landmark Supreme Court case. 

CB: Yeah. We’ll see legal stuff come up a lot with the 9th house as a recurring theme throughout these rulers of the houses, and this one with Mars in the 9th house in a day chart is a good early example of that. 

All right. So let’s move on. So the next one we were gonna look at briefly is just the birth chart of Linda Goodman. And Linda Goodman was a famous astrologer in the middle of the 20th century who wrote the book Sun Signs, and it became wildly popular. But then her follow up book that she was paid like, a massive amount of money at the time – like, millions of dollars for – to write a follow-up book is she wrote a book called Love Signs, which also became like, a wildly popular and influential book. And I just thought that was amazing, because she was born with Aries rising and Leo on the 5th whole sign house and the ruler of the 5th house is the Sun, which is exalted there in the first house in Aries conjunct Venus. And she becomes known partially for this book called Love Signs, which was about, you know, synastry or relationship compatibility between zodiac signs. But it really drives home a theme we were seeing a lot yesterday that we kind of ended the last episode on with the ruler of the Ascendant where you had people like bell hooks with the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th developing a thesis across multiple books about like, the importance of love and redefining love and what that means and that being something that could help society, basically. But we’ll also see a recurring theme in other charts – like here – of the concept of love being tied in with a person’s self-identity with the ruler of the 5th in the first. 

LS: Definitely. Yeah. And I think her Love – I mean, I don’t know stats on this, but I think her Love Signs book is more the enduring thing that people now know her for between the two. 

CB: Okay. 

LS: It seems like, to me anyway, just casually talking to people. It’s also really funny that the ruler of her 5th in the first is like, closely applying to the ruler of the 9th house, which is astrology, in the 10th house of career as like, Jupiter in a day chart. 

CB: Yeah, for sure. 

LS: Connecting her astrological career with the topic of love. 

CB: Yeah. And then she was paid an industry record of 2.3 million dollars for the paperback rights to Love Signs, which at the time was just a massive amount of money for a book – especially for an astrology book – and I think those books were some of the highest selling astrology books at least in modern times in like, the 20th century. 

LS: Yeah, I wanna say I think we used her in either the 2nd or 3rd house episode because she has the ruler of the 3rd in the 2nd. 

CB: Yeah. It was the – because she has the ruler of the Ascendant in the 3rd, and I often use her as an example of like, a writer. But you’re right; it might be the ruler of the 2nd in the first as well. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Or yeah. 

LS: Any of those! 

CB: Anyway. She had a difficult thing surrounding her child, but I think I’m gonna skip that for now because this is sufficient for the main point of this example. 

All right. The next example I wanted to talk about that I found recently was the birth chart of Chaz Bono. So Chaz Bono is an American writer, musician, and actor, and his parents are the entertainers Sonny Bono and Cher. And initially he became widely known in appearances as a child on their television show, The Sonny and Cher Comedy Hour. But for our purposes, and the chart I should describe real quickly is Sagittarius rising with a Venus-Saturn conjunction in the same degree at 23 degrees of Aries in the 5th house. And the North Node is also in the 5th house. And then the ruler of the 5th house is Mars, which is placed in early Sagittarius in the first whole sign house. So it’s like, the planet that rules the 5th house of sex and sexuality is in the first house of self and identity. And Chaz Bono is a trans man, identifies as a trans man now, but in 1995 when still presenting as a woman, and in the earlier 1990s – actually, it was in 1990 Chaz Bono who was identifying as a woman at the time was forcibly outed as a lesbina in 1990 by a tabloid. So it was a tabloid article in like, The Star tabloid basically like, outed them as being into women and having same-sex relationships, which was much more taboo and potentially problematic to be outed like that forcibly at the time in 1990. 

What was interesting, I noticed, is that there was a Venus-Saturn conjunction happening at that time, which was a recurrence transit for them. So it’s like, they were born on a Venus-Saturn conjunction, and then they were outed on a Venus-Saturn conjunction. And then what happened is that five years later in April of 1995, Chaz Bono decided to come out as a lesbian at that time like, deliberately after ignoring and not responding to those rumors for about five years, they did a cover story in The Advocate, which is a famous LGBT magazine at that point in time. And what was wild that I noticed is that Venus and Saturn were again conjunct in the sky at that time in the sign of Pisces. So it was another recurrence transit like, five years later when they came out. And that time, it was them doing so and sort of taking things into their own hands. 

So I wanted to point that out just because it was something about, like, the person’s identity being wrapped up in their sexual orientation to a certain extent, and then because it was Mars, it was part of it – there’s different things going on – but because it was Mars and because also he had Venus conjunct Saturn in the 5th, there were issues of being forcibly, you know, outed versus like taking that into your own hands and coming out deliberately.

LS: Yeah, for sure. And he wrote a book later called The End of Innocence: A Memoir where he recounted like, the distress and emotional turmoil the outing caused him. And of course, the ruler of the 3rd house of print media and that sort of thing – I think tabloids would arguably go in the 3rd house – is that Saturn in a night chart in the 5th house and then that being in turn ruled by Mars, the other malefic, in the first house of identity. So I think that very elegantly speaks to, you know, what happened there and his story about it later. 

CB: Yeah. Absolutely. So I wanted to use that as an example of not just like, the ruler of the 5th in the first, but also having the most positive planet and the most – this is a night chart – the most positive planet and the most negative planet in the same sign in the 5th house and having some really difficult things happen in terms of that. But then also having some really positive things as well, because then they subsequently became a notable advocate for LGBTQ issues. 

LS: For sure. 

CB: Yeah. All right, so let’s see, moving on. 

The next example chart is one we mentioned in the 2nd house episode, but it’s the birth chart of MacKenzie Scott who was the former wife of Amazon.com CEO Jeff Bezos, and she helped him essentially to found the company and to like, get the company started for a number of years, especially early on. But then in the past few years, he left her and they got a divorce, and now he’s with somebody else. But the assets were split, and she famously… So she got like, billions of dollars in the divorce, and then she famously started donating like, billions and billions of dollars to philanthropic causes shortly after the divorce. And I thought that was really interesting, because on the one hand, while we used her as an example of somebody since she was born with Aries rising and Mars in Taurus in the 2nd house as well as a whole stellium of planets in the 2nd house, including Mercury, Venus, Moon, Saturn, Lot of Fortune, and Mars – huge stellium in the 2nd house. The ruler of the 5th house, since Leo’s on the 5th house, is the Sun, which is placed in her first house of identity, and it’s exalted in the sign of Aries, which as I talked about in the last episode, when a planet’s in its exaltation, it raises it up so that it manifests like, the highest version of whatever it is that that person chooses to do. And in this instance, because it’s ruling the 5th house, one of the significations of the 5th house that really goes back to like, Vettius Valens but we’ve seen in other authors as well is philanthropy. Like, good doing or doing positive things and helping other people out in the world is connected partially with the 5th house. And what we see with her is like, she’s one of the biggest philanthropists, and that’s wrapped up now in her identity when people think of her. 

LS: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it’s funny – I remember when we did the 2nd house episode that I noted the Mars in the 2nd is just like, spending a lot, and usually that’s more problematic, but she has a night – no, she has a day chart – but in her case, it’s like, spending a lot for good purposes, which I think the ruler of the 5th being exalted in the first fills out that place of part of why that is at least. 

CB: Yeah. 

LS: It’s also interesting; I looked up the biggest recipients of her philanthropy, and one of them is the Girl Scouts of America. 

CB: Oh wow. 

LS: So it’s like, a children piece as well. 

CB: Nice. Yeah. Donating to children’s groups; that’s great. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: So as of late 2024, she’d given a total of 19 billion dollars to over 1,600 charitable organizations. So just to give you some idea of the scope of things. 

All right, so that’s good. And then one last example I wanted to mention here is one I mentioned in the last episode, but this is the birth chart of Kevin Hart, who’s one of the most famous comedians over the course of the past, I don’t know, 10 or 15 years. And what we talked about was just how having Virgo rising and having Saturn ruling the 5th house of fun and games and comedy, he has the ruler of the 5th house in the first house conjunct the degree of the Ascendant where Saturn is at nine degrees of Virgo, and the Ascendant is at seven degrees of Virgo. And he famously – a major recurring theme is that his act often focuses on self-deprecating humor. So I just wanted to bring this up again, because that’s one of the really interesting manifestations I discovered where sometimes the first house, it represents self in the chart and it represents you. And sometimes that can be hard to figure out what that means when the ruler of another house is in the first house of self. But this is a really literal example of it, which is that he is often like, making jokes about himself in his comedy routine. So there’s like, a self-deprecating humor to it, which is both Saturn but also like, Virgo to some extent as well. 

LS: Right. I was thinking that as well. Because both of them can kind of go that way – Saturn and Virgo separately. 

CB: Right. Yeah. For sure. 

Yeah. So that was the last one I wanted to mention there. And let me just do – actually, let me do one more. I’m gonna pull out from our other one, which is Donatella Versace. It’s a good one, because it ties in with our other examples from the previous ones. So this is – where the name is often involved. So this is Donatella Versace, who has Taurus rising and the Moon in Virgo in the 5th whole sign house, and then the ruler of the 5th house is Mercury which is in Taurus in the first whole sign house along with the Sun. And she’s a famous fashion designer of like, the Versace fashion empire. I think I talked about previously in another episode on the 3rd house how she took over especially from her brother after her brother was murdered in the 1990s. But her name, she’s really led after that after she took over in the 1990s, she led the Versace fashion empire to new heights and continued to make the family name – Versace – like, a trademark that’s associated with like, luxury and fashion and all of those other things. 

LS: Yeah. That’s great. Yeah, it’s really funny when it’s as literal as like, names being part of the identity showing up with the first house. 

CB: Yeah. And that’s why I wanted to like, squeeze this one in here really quickly, just because that was a recurring theme in several other examples throughout this series where we had like, you know, Maria Montessori having the ruler of the 3rd house in the first house, and it was like, you know, children’s schools now are like, named after her. Or the founder of Ferrari cars had the ruler of the 3rd house in the first house, and like, Ferrari is now a name that’s associated with cars. So this is just a continuation of that theme. 

LS: Yeah. For sure. 

CB: Yeah. All right. Well, that’s it for the first house. Shall we move on to the 2nd house? 

LS: Yes. Let’s. 

CB: The first example in the 2nd house is the birth chart of Heidi Fleiss, who became famous in like, the 1990s for running an escort service in Hollywood that was connected to like, high clienteles of people in Hollywood and in that area. And she was born with Aquarius rising and the 2nd house is Pisces, and it’s ruled by Jupiter, which is placed in Gemini in the 5th whole sign house, which is the place of sex and sexuality. 

So one of the things about this – and there’s multiple things going on, because it’s like, Jupiter’s also ruling the 11th house and other things like that – but one of the things is just in this instance, when there’s a connection between the 2nd house of money and finances and the 5th house of sex, that someimes sex work and things related to it can come into play in some instances. 

LS: Right. So yeah, she became known as like, the Hollywood madame, and she basically ran an upscale prostitution ring based in LA. 

CB: Yeah. So shoutout to Camille Michelle Grey. I’ve used this as an example before, but shoutout to Camille for the research notes. Yeah. So that’s it. But there’s actually, like, a few like that. 

So our next example is Annie Sprinkle, who has Libra rising and the 5th house is Aquarius, and it’s ruled by Saturn, which is in the 2nd house of finances. And Annie Sprinkle is kind of, it’s a sort of similar case of somebody that’s worked with sex work and sex education and different things like that, right? 

LS: Yeah. So she was known as the prostitute and pornstar that then turned into a sex educator and artist. She’s done basically, I don’t know, just about anything you could do with 5th house sexuality. So she’s an American certified sexologist, performance artist, foermer sex worker, filmmaker, and advocate for the decriminalization of sex work. And she’s known as the first pornstar to get a doctoral degree, earning a doctorate of philosophy and human sexuality. And she has also produced feminist and queer pornographic content, so focused more on pornography based on women’s desires or understanding of female genitalia even. 

CB: Yeah. So it’s a pretty good example, just in terms of tying in the 2nd house and sex, but also that there’s just like, a full range of what that can mean in terms of how that can manifest in different ways. 

LS: Yeah. It’s interesting – she has Saturn ruling the 5th, but then it’s getting overcoming aspects from both Venus and Jupiter by sign – Venus in Virgo and Jupiter exalted in Cancer in the 10th. I think that’s part of like, why her 5th house realm has become like, so elevated. Like, she’s really known for that. And speaking to your, you know, recurring them about exalted planets.

CB: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the – did you already read that part? But one of the things I saw in the Wikipedia — 

LS: Yes. 

CB: — biography was that in 1996 she became the first known pornstar to get a doctoral degree, earning a doctorate of philosophy and human sexuality from the Institute of Advanced Study of Human Sexuality in San Francisco. 

LS: Yes.

CB: Okay. 

LS: And she also appeared in almost 200 films, including hard- and soft-core pornography, B movies, loops, and numerous documentaries. So you know, partly exemplifying the 5th house of sexuality, but also the, you know, like, media production – videos and so forth. 

CB: Yeah. So anyway, so just example, very straightforward, of at least one piece of that is just when your finances are tied in with sex and sexuality. 

LS: Absolutely. 

CB: All right. Moving on. The next one I found which is in a similar vein is the birth chart of John Holmes. And… 

LS: He was a prolific American pornstar from the 1970s. He became famous enough to be the subject of the film Boogie Nights, some people may remember. So he has the ruler of the 5th house of sexuality in the 2nd house of income and livelihood. Saturn in the 5th… You have the chart yet? So Saturn’s gonna be in the 5th house in a night chart as well, and he did later die of AIDS-related illness. And so that would be like, you know, even though he had the connection between the 5th house of sexuality and the 2nd house of income or livelihood, he also had the malefic contrary to sect in the 5th house, and eventually that was part of his life story as well – something very negative related to sex. 

CB: Yeah. So here’s the chart. It should be Pisces rising with Cancer on the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler is the Moon, which is in the 2nd house. And so that’s the connection between the 5th and the 2nd and just, you know, making a living basically from doing sex-related things, doing pornography and having sex on camera. And then you were talking about the Saturn in the 5th house in a night chart. 

LS: Right. And just, you know, having a very negative outcome, at least at one point in the life, with regard to sexuality. And so contracting HIV from sex. 

CB: Right. Yeah. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: All right. Let me see what our next example is. 

LS: I think it’s Rock Hudson. 

CB: Yeah. So our next example is Rock Hudson, and this is the birth chart. He had Libra rising and Aquarius on the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler is Saturn, which is placed in Scorpio in the 2nd house along with the Sun and Mars. And Rock Hudson was like, a famous Hollywood actor who was gay in the 1950s and that sort of timeframe really early on. But I wanted to use this example, because what happened is that in the mid-1980s, he got AIDS and died, but he came out, I believe, and it became known that he was gay at that time. But earlier in his life, there were like, fears basically where he was a big Hollywood actor, but he had to stay in the closet because if he didn’t, his livelihood would have been threatened basically. Like, he would have lost his livelihood and ability to make income as an actor if he had been outed at that time. 

So I wanted to bring this up, because you know, sometimes Saturn can represent fear. Like, in modern psychological astrology, that’s commonly talked about as like, Saturn representing fears. And in this instance, like, he would have had like, major fears concerning sex and sexuality becoming known, because it would have directly impacted his ability to make a living. And I think this is tied in with Saturn ruling the 5th house of sex and sexuality and placed in the 2nd house in a night chart. And it’s interesting, because Saturn is also very close to the Sun, so it’s under the beams, which brings traditionally like, a hidden element to planets that are under the beams within 15 degrees of the Sun. And that’s part of I think what was going on there in his chart. 

LS: Yeah, for sure. And it was a well-founded fear, I mean, because at the height of his fame, it was in the ‘50s and ‘60s. Hollywood operated kind of like, under an unwritten – the period was often called a Lavender Scare – sorry – which kind of paralleled the anti-Communist Red Scare. So in the film industry, people’s – actors’ – personas were kind of carefully cultivated and controlled to be sure that, you know, they exemplified like, all-American values, right? And that did not include being queer at the time. And so he was actually known as like, this rugged, heterosexual guy as his like, film persona. 

CB: Yeah, exactly. So — 

LS: I was just gonna say one more thing. You know, it’s interesting that it’s the ruler of the 5th and the ruler of the 4th in the 2nd, right? Because we’ve talked about the 4th house, you know, previously as like, hidden things. And so it was like, kind of tying together those two things. And he also has Venus in the 4th, so just sort of echoes of the same issue. 

CB: Yeah, absolutely, with the ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th as well as Saturn ruling the 4th, because we talked extensively in the 4th house episode about hidden things and the 4th being the most hidden part of the chart, because it’s directly below your feet under the earth. 

LS: Right. So there can literally tie together those two topics of like, sexuality and his acting with like, hiddenness, something hidden. 

CB: Yeah. Definitely. All right. So let’s keep moving. 

Another contemporary example in a different area is the birth chart of Rupert Murdoch, who is a famous media mogul that runs like, Fox News and other things like that. But he has Capricorn rising, Taurus on the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler of the 5th house is Venus, which is placed in the 2nd house in a night chart. So there’s a connection between the ruler of the 5th house of children and the 2nd house of finances. And what was interesting is like, there’s been this court case for years where his children have been battling in court over the trust and like, who will inherit his media empire basically after he dies. And his children have been like, fighting with each other over it. And I’d been, I think, using that as an example for a while because that’s been ongoing for a while at this point. But I think it was just recently settled; I saw a headline in the news like, a few days ago that like, his main son who’s like, politically or ideologically on the same page as him is gonna be the main one that takes over, and his other children have agreed to some settlement of only, like, a paltry like, billion dollars or something like that. 

LS: Only! 

CB: Yeah. 

LS: Yeah, sad sacks. That’s too bad for them. 

CB: I mean, sometimes you gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps and just get by with what little — 

LS: With one billion. 

CB: Yeah, exactly. 

LS: Well, it’s funny too that, I mean, obviously the children piece is very relevant here. But also just the basic premise that he’s earned his income through media, right, and it’s like, the ruler of the 5th and 10th in the 2nd house as the benefic of sect. 

CB: Right. Yeah. 

All right. So let’s see, moving onto the next chart. One of the classic ones I’ve been using for over a decade now in my Hellenistic course, which I originally researched when I was researching the rulers of the houses for some lectures I have in my Hellenistic astrology course about this is the birth chart of Dr. Dre, who is a famous rapper and music producer. And he was born with Gemini rising, and Cancer is the 2nd house of finances, and it’s ruled by the Moon, which is like, placed in the 5th whole sign house in Libra, and it’s applying to this really nice trine with Venus with reception, which is really improving and what we would call bonifying the condition of Venus and like, affirming it and making it super lucky and successful. And at one point, he started a headphone company, which was Beats Electronics or Beats Headphones. And then they sold it to Apple at one point for like, a billion dollars or some crazy amount of money. And for a period of time, I think it made him like, the richest musician in the world for a period of time. 

LS: Wow. Yeah, that’s very literal. Not just making a living, but also like, an object or a product related to 5th house things like listening to music. And —

CB: Right. 

LS: — that not just applying to Venus with reception improving its quality, but that Venus also being on the Midheaven of career. 

CB: Yeah, exactly. Right, exactly. 

So that’s a really positive example of like, good financial things coming from 5th house things. 

LS: Definitely.

CB: All right, so moving on. The next example is Barbara Cartland, right? 

LS: Yeah. I found her when I was searching for, you know, rulers in houses. And she has Aries rising, and the 5th house is Leo with Venus placed in Leo in the 5th house in a night chart. And then – right, the 2nd house is Taurus. So she has the ruler of the 2nd in the 5th, which is the benefic of sect by night. And she was an English writer who published both contemporary and historical romance novels. And so it’s not just that she earned her living through creative output, which she did and is very relevant to that placement, but it also literally the topic of romance is like, how she made a living, which is another 5th house signification. I also thought, as an aside, it was funny that she also has that ruler of the 4th house of Cancer, the Moon, is in Aries conjunct the Ascendant – the first house. And I think that’s the historical piece. Like, she had a personal focus on historical stories as well as contemporary. 

So she’

S one of the bestselling authors worldwide of the 20th century, actually. It’s just testament to my not reading romance novels that I didn’t know that before finding her chart! But she wrote 723 novels, incredibly. And she sold more than 750 million copies of her books, though some other sources estimate her total sales at more than two billion. 

So it’s just a really great example of both when… That her livelihood was connected to that creative, artistic output, but also literally the topic of romance as the 5th house. 

CB: Yeah. That’s perfect. I love that. Brilliant. All right. Great example. 

So there are just two I wanted to mention really briefly in this section, and… Because one of them is Renoir – Pierre Auguste Renoir – who was a famous artist. And he has Aquarius rising, Gemini is the 5th whole sign house, so that Mercury is the ruler of the 5th house of creativity and art and creation, and it’s in the 2nd house of finances. And it has this overcoming square, this superior square, from Jupiter, which is in Sagittarius. And I wanted to contrast his chart as an artist with the chart of Claude Debussy, who was another famous artist from, you know, late 19th, early 20th century who had Leo rising, Sagittarius on the 5th house, ruled by Jupiter, which is placed in the 2nd house of finances, but it’s conjunct Saturn. So it’s like, not as well off. And it’s like, two instances of famous artists who, you know, tried to make a living from their art, basically, and from creativity. And what was interesting is that Renoir was more successful, basically, in making a living from his art during his lifetime and achieving financial stability through having like, commercial success and wealth during his lifetime, whereas Debussy’s financial situation was much more precarious in terms of his financial success from his artwork in his lifetime. And it’s partially reflected there just by the auspiciousness or inauspiciousness of certain placements that are having more affirming significations through the aspects or having more challenging significations through the aspects. So I wanted to mention that as part of like, a broader topic that people could think about or pay attention to sometimes is that distinction of like, an artist who becomes financially successful or let’s say is fortunate or becomes lucky in becoming financially successful in creating their work versus another artist who struggles to or isn’t able to make a living doing their art of what have you. 

LS: Yeah, that’s a great comparison. Nice find. Yeah, because the first one was much more affirmed, and then here with the Saturn conjunction, you know, Saturn indicating delays or blockages. So it’s like, the same setup otherwise, but definitely altered by the aspects. 

CB: Yeah. Exactly. 

Okay, I think that’s good for the 2nd house then. So shall we move on? 

LS: Yes, let’s. 

CB: Cool. All right. So now we move onto the 3rd house. And one of the first examples I wanted to share that I already shared yesterday was the birth chart of Jake Gyllenhaal – Jake Gyllenhaal – who was born with Leo rising. He’s an actor. And the ruler of the Ascendant is the Sun, which is in Sagittarius in the 5th house along with a stellium of Venus, Mercury, and Neptune, and the Sun in the 5th house. But what’s interesting is he has the ruler of the 5th house is Jupiter, which is in Libra in the 3rd whole sign house, and then the ruler of the 3rd house is Venus, which is in Sagittarius in the 5th house. So he actually has a mutual reception between the rulers of the 3rd and the 5th house, which as we’ve seen in other installments in the houses series always creates a very strong connection between those two houses when there’s a mutual reception of when the two planets are exchanging signs. And sometimes it becomes like, a distinctive part of the life, those two houses having a connection. And for him, what it was is that he grew up and he had an older sister named Maggie who got into acting before he did. And he reportedly said that part of his own inspiration for getting into acting was, you know, kind of like, seeing how much joy that his sister had in acting, and that it inspired him to follow in her footsteps or in her path. And eventually, they actually appeared in three different films together, including the cult sort of hit Donnie Darko where they actually played siblings in that movie. 

LS: Yeah, that’s great. That’s an amazing really strong connection between those two houses that really stands out. 

CB: Yeah. All right. So that is that example. And then moving on – one of my favorite examples that I found during this research project, like, just out of all of the rulers of the houses ones is Serena Williams, who’s a famous tennis player – like, the leading tennis player in the world at one point in time, the number one tennis player. And she was born with Taurus rising and the 5th house is Virgo. And the only planet we find in the 5th house is the Moon there in the 5th house in a night chart, so it’s actually the sect light, which makes it the more important luminary. And what’s so fascinating is the Moon is ruling the 3rd house of siblings, and the IC is also placed in the 3rd house. And what happened is that her parents and especially her father raised both her and her sister – Serena and Venus Williams – to play tennis. And he had like, this entire – what was it? Like, 78-page outline of a plan to make them the number one tennis players in the world. And so the two parents trained the two siblings in tennis together, which is like, the IC in the 3rd house of siblings. So it’s importing 4th house parents and family significations into the 3rd house of siblings. And then the ruler of that is the Moon, which is in the 5th house of games and sports and things like that. And then of course Serena Williams would go on to become the number – well, on the one hand, her older sister, Venus, was the one that got into the professional sport first, and Serena often talks about like, following the path that her sister had already laid out for her essentially, or had been a trailblazer in and like, making it possible and following in her footsteps. And then eventually, the two of them would go on to be like, the number one and number two players so that they eventually would compete against each other. And I think in the final count, Serena ended up becoming the like, number one player in the world and sort of winning out in the total number of matches. But I was just really impressed by how the 3rd house of siblings and the IC representing parents was tied in with the 5th house of games and sports in a very literal way in this chart. 

LS: Yeah. Really perfect combination of chart factors. And there was this lovely quote by Serena that said, “There would be no Serena if there wasn’t a Venus. She burst open that door, and I ran through.” And it’s just such a perfect and literal illustration, right, of that ruler of the 3rd of siblings being in the 5th house of games and sports and that being the important sect light in the chart. So it’s really just primary to her life story that her sister did this first. 

CB: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. For sure. And you and I watched that Will Smith movie, King Richard, from a few years ago that was about this. So you can kind of watch like, a dramatization of their life story and centered on their father and mother being the ones raising them to play tennis. And it’s just a very literal and vivid – it was actually a really good movie – like, demonstration of that chart placement. 

LS: Right. And there was actually this interesting point that, you know, we didn’t know to what extent this happened in real life, but where Venus was kind of taken for coaching first, and they could only pay for one child for professional coaching after the father initially got them started. And so Venus was being coached by the professional coach, and Serena was kind of like, not happy about being left behind. And her mom was the one who then was coaching her more strongly for at least some period of time. And we were both wondering about that, you know, Cancer IC being ruled by the Moon in the 5th house and whether, you know, to what extent that was actually her mom having even a stronger influence on her career. 

CB: Right, for sure. Yeah. And then what was cool about that also – that movie – is like, you know, it’s like, Serena has the ruler of the 3rd and the IC in the 5th. But then like, the star of the movie was Will Smith, who was playing their father raising his daughters and other children. And he, as we talked about in the last episode, probably has the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th, and he won an Oscar for that role — 

LS: Right. 

CB: — playing the role of the father raising like, the two biggest tennis champions in the world. And then at the end of the movie, the movie ends with a Beyonce song that starts playing. And Beyonce, as we saw in the last episode, has the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th house. So it’s — 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: — just like, 5th house people like, all the way down! 

LS: Yeah. We were laughing about that as we were watching it, especially at the end. We were like, “More 5th house! More!” 

CB: Right. Yeah. And it was also like, a song that was made specifically for the movie by Beyonce, which was additionally cool. 

All right, so let’s move on. My next one is Ben Affleck. Here is the birth chart. So Ben Affleck was born with – yeah – Cancer rising, and Scorpio is the 5th whole sign house where we find the Moon. So he actually has the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th house, and he’s a famous actor and has become a famous actor. But what I found was interesting about his chart is that he has the ruler of the 5th house is Mars, which is placed in the 3rd house, which is like, as we talked about in the 3rd house episode, the 3rd house is siblings but it’s also friends, it’s your local neighborhood and people around your house in the vicinity of your house and like, the city around you. And what was fascinating about that is he met his friend Matt Damon when their two mothers, because they lived in the same neighborhood and their two mothers got together and then put them on like, a playdate together. And so Matt Damon and Ben Affleck became close friends because they lived in each other’s neighborhood basically. And what was fascinating about that is then they grew up and they first became famous together as a duo as writing partners especially, because they wrote the script for Good Will Hunting. And then they won the I think Academy Award or they won the Oscar, basically, I think for Best Screenplay that year. 

LS: That’s amazing. I didn’t know that story about like, the childhood connection, childhood neighborhood friend. 

CB: Yeah. Well, it was just something that showed up very strongly in the 3rd house episode that the 3rd house is – that the 11th house is not the only house of friends, but that the 3rd house — 

LS: Right. 

CB: — has a relevant friend component as well, especially local friends and ones in your neighborhood or ones that are like, childhood friends that you tend to grow up with in the same city or same neighborhood. 

LS: Absolutely. Yeah. That’s great. 

CB: As well as – I guess actually more broadly, interestingly, it’s also siblings and brothers and people that are a brother to you and their relationship has often been like, likened to that. 

LS: That’s cool. 

CB: All right. So moving on. The next one is the birth chart of Hugh Hefner, who’s the founder of Playboy, and he was born with Virgo rising and Capricorn is the 5th whole sign house, and it’s ruled by Saturn, which is in the 3rd house of communication. And he famously founded Playboy magazine, which on the one hand was obviously – it was like, sex and sexuality and like, printing sexual content basically. But then also what was, you know, unique about Playboy in much of the 20th century was that it also had written columns, and it tried to also be a literary work to some extent and would have like, famous writers who would contribute to like, written pieces and stuff in it as well. And I just thought it was really interesting that he had the ruler of the 5th house of sex and sexuality in the 3rd house of communication. 

LS: Yeah. That’s amazing.

CB: Or like last night – yesterday – we talked about the famous comedian who got his start at the Playboy Club, for example. 

LS: Right. Yeah. So definitely 5th house content, but focused on the 3rd house of like, printing and writing, and Saturn again connecting two houses – it rules the 5th house and the 6th house. So it’s like, sexuality and also his job is basically 3rd house. 

CB: Yeah. Right. And you know, we looked at two charts that were basically like that yesterday that are similar overlap that could just be reiterated briefly. But one of them was Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick who had Cancer rising, the Scorpio 5th house, and the ruler of the 5th house is Mars, which is in the 3rd house. And she was an academic that wrote a lot about sex and sexuality and sexual orientation and things like that, right? 

LS: Yeah. Yeah, that was one of our previous examples. But it just bears repeating. There’s a bunch of those people like that who have some sort of career writing about sexuality, and so many of them have the ruler of the 5th in the 3rd. 

CB: Right. And another one we talked about last night was Carol Ann Duffy, who was born with Virgo rising and Mercury, the ruler of the Ascendant, in the 5th house in Capricorn along with the Sun and Venus. But the ruler of the 5th house is Saturn, which is in Scorpio in the 3rd house. And she became the poet laureate for the UK for like, over a decade – like, the nation’s poet. But then also was the first open lesbian poet laureate in the history of the country. 

LS: Yeah. Those are both two great charts that echo each other. And then I think I mentioned yesterday as well another in passing, which we didn’t have the chart up for, but it was another ruler of the 5th in the 3rd with Adrienne Rich who wrote Compulsory Heterosexuality, and she was an academic, but this is literally like, a written piece of work that just like, decades of university students have been told to read at this point, and it’s just like, a core written thing about sexuality. 

CB: Nice. That’s perfect. All right, and then you had one last example, right? 

LS: Yeah. It was T. Berry Brazelton. So he had the ruler of the 5th is the exalted Moon in the 3rd house. He had Pisces rising, and then Cancer 5th house, Moon ruling that exalted in Taurus in the 3rd house. And this one was just hilariously literal. So he was an American pediatrician, author, and the developer of the neonatal behavioral assessment scale – which will become important in a moment – used by major hospitals throughout the world. He also hosted a cable television program called What Every Baby Knows and wrote a syndicated newspaper column about this and authored more than 200 scholarly papers and 24 books. 

CB: Wow. 

LS: So lots of writing, basically, about 5th house – children. His Columbia alumni profile describes him as “America’s most celebrated and influential baby doctor since Benjamin Spock.” And you can see the exalted Moon ruling the 5th house, right? He’s like, known as one of the top people with regard to 5th house topics. 

CB: Right. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: It’s not just like, a baby doctor that writes — 

LS: Right. 

CB: — about children and baby-related things. It’s like, one of the top ones in the country. 

LS: Yeah. One of the most well-known, one of the most prolific, et cetera. But my very favorite thing about this when I looked it up was – so one of the major assumptions underlying his neonatal behavioral assessment scale, which is like, really widely used now, is that babies communicate through their behavior, which – although it may not always seem like it – is a rational language. And this was taken from the Brazelton Institute website. And I was like, oh, that’s amazing and perfect, right? Because it’s the babies from the 5th house communicating in the 3rd house – like, language and communication. But it’s the Moon, so it’s nonverbal communication! And I just love the literalness of that. 

CB: Yeah, absolutely. That’s perfect. So it’s literally like, you can make a really broad statement with this chart that like, there may be some connection between the topic of children and the topic of communication, which are two literally like, first significations for each of those houses. And because the ruler of one is in the other that there would be a connection between the two. And then if you said that to like, a client, that would turn out to be like, very literally true in his instance. 

LS: Yes. Yeah. So that was a great find, I thought! 

CB: Yeah. Absolutely. Or like, and then in our other instances, if you had said to some of the other people of like, that there may be a connection between the topic of like, sex and sexuality and communication in your life with like, I don’t know, Hugh Hefner, for example, like, that would be very literally true in a very real sense. Or to Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick who like, wrote about those things academically, and so on and so forth. 

LS: Right. It’s almost like astrology works. 

CB: It’s almost like it works. But also that figuring out what the limits are and like, how to phrase things in a way that’s like, broad. Like, understanding the broad possible archetypes and ranges and then getting as close as you can to describing that in concrete terms and then seeing how the specifics work out. 

LS: Definitely. 

CB: All right, so let’s move onto the 4th house and looking at the ruler of the 5th house when it’s connected with the 4th house in astrology. The 4th, of course, is the primary house of parents as well as your home and your living situation. 

So one of the charts we already discussed yesterday is the birth chart of the actress Tori Spelling. So here is her birth chart. Tori Spelling has Aquarius rising and Saturn’s in the 5th whole sign house. And what’s interesting about this is the 5th house is Gemini, and it’s ruled by Mercury, which is placed in the 4th whole sign house. And then the ruler of the 4th whole sign house is Venus, which is placed in Gemini in the 5th whole sign house, and it’s conjunct the IC which is just barely moved into Gemini into the 5th house. So there’s a mutual reception or an exchange of signs between the ruler of the 5th house of creativity and the ruler of the 4th house of parents. And as we talked about yesterday already, which we don’t have to go into all of it again, but just Tori Spelling is an actress who became prominent through playing a character on the hit TV series 90210 in the early 1990s. But her father was a famous television producer who created the show. So then he cast his daughter in this television series. 

So right there sort of like, directly there’s a connection between the 5th house of creativity and the 4th house of parents in having that connection. And then sometimes like, this can be discussed or people like, debate whether this was a case of nepotism where having a family member in an industry pulling strings for you or what have you. So I just wanted to mention it, because as I said before, when there’s a mutual reception or exchange of signs between two houses, it often creates a very strong connection, and it creates something that sometimes becomes very distinctive – a distinctive overlap between those houses in the life in general. 

LS: Right. Yeah. And an interesting additional layer is not only, you know, was that the connection for her own acting career, but her father Aaron Spelling was like, a very famous American film and television producer, and through his production company, he actually holds the record as the most prolific television producer in American television history. So — 

CB: Oh wow. 

LS: — it’s like – so it’s describing a parent as well as, you know, her acting connection with the parent. 

CB: Yeah. Absolutely. That’s amazing. Okay, so that’s all I wanted to say about that one. So moving on. 

Another one that I found that’s a more recent example is the birth chart of Margaret Qualley, who was born with Pisces rising and Cancer on the 5th whole sign house of like, creativity and acting. And it’s ruled by the Moon, which is placed in Gemini in the 4th whole sign house in a close conjunction with the degree of the IC with the IC at 21 Gemini and the Moon at 18 Gemini. 

So I didn’t know this until I was like, researching, but Margaret Qualley’s mother is the famous actress Andie MacDowell who was like, famous from like, you know, one of my favorite ‘90s movies was Groundhog Day, and she played the lead in that opposite to Bill Murray’s character. And I can see the resemblance now, but I didn’t realize that like, her mother was an actor. 

LS: Right. Yeah. So those two charts are really similar with the ruler of the 5th in the 4th and having like, a famous film or TV parent as well as having an acting career themselves. 

CB: Yeah. So and I was reading about this, and some of the stuff on Wikipedia was saying that she’s sometimes accused of being a nepo baby because of her mother being a well-known actress. And Qualley’s acknowledged the sort of label that people attempt to give her and say, “You can call me a nepo baby,” though she prefers the term second-generation actor and feels a strong internal drive to prove her own worth and deserve her place in the industry. And you know, I think she has. I mean, I think that’s one of the differences here, and that’s one of the things where it gets tricky sometimes when people make that – as we were saying yesterday – just like… There’s that whole idea of like, apprenticeship and like, passing down knowledge sometimes from generation to generation, and that sometimes when a person has a parent that does a certain thing, they will follow in that parent’s footsteps. And that does sometimes give you an edge just simply as a result of like, growing up in that environment and starting to learn how to do what your parent does much earlier in life than most other people do if they come to it later on. 

So I feel like that’s more the case here, because it seems like in some of her recent stuff, she’s like, proved herself and got I think some nominations recently for The Substance, for example, which she did a really good job in acting opposite to Demi Moore over the past year. So it seems like she’s been proving herself and demonstrating that some of those accusations of it just being able nepotism were not necessarily true. 

LS: Yeah. It seems like a significant both pro and con, having a parent in the same industry because of – like you said – you know, getting a leg up potentially earlier than someone else might. But then also like, having that always hanging over you as like, a “You have to prove yourself” and that it’s not just only about that. And that just seems like a little bit of a burden as well! 

CB: Right, that it would create like, a pressure. And then it’s like, some actors will like, change their name. Like, I know Nicolas Cage changed his name because he’s actually one of the – he’s from the Coppola family.

LS: Oh. 

CB: But I think he changed his stage name partially in order to try to make it on his own without the family name, whereas we’ll see another example here soon in the next section about like, you know, like, Sofia Coppola who has the IC in the 5th house and started acting in her father’s movies but then eventually went on to be a successful actor on her own. 

So yeah. I just think it’s interesting where this topic can come up with those crossovers between the 5th and the 4th in terms of following in the parent’s footsteps creatively, let’s say. 

LS: Definitely. 

CB: All right. So let’s move on. One of the ones I talked about yesterday, not to go into all of it again, but it goes with two examples. I have two next to each other, which is like, Joe Rogan and Jay Leno. And here is, again, the chart of Joe Rogan, and I wanted to mention it just because yesterday I talked about how he has Taurus rising and Virgo is on the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler of the 5th is in the 4th. And in Austin, he moved to Austin and then created a comedy club there called the Mothership. And so it’s like, you get the idea of like, comedy, which is the 5th house, and then the 4th house, which is usually like, the home and living situation, but it can also be like, creating a building or a physical space for something. And I wanted to mention that, because I found a funny parallel with Jay Leno, the famous host of The Tonight Show for many years and comedian as well just like Rogan. 

So Jay Leno has Aquarius rising, and Gemini on the 5th whole sign house with the IC there. And the ruler of the 5th house is Mercury, which is placed in Taurus in the 4th house. And one of the famous things about Leno is that his main hobby is collecting cars – like, especially old, vintage cars – and he’s built these entire huge garages and like, warehouses to house all of these old cars that he’s collected, basically. 

LS: That’s funny. 

CB: And I’ve seen some really funny like, tours where he’s done tours and interviews of showing off his car garages and stuff. And so I thought it was a really interesting parallel of just like, the ruler of the 5th house of fun and games and hobbies being in the 4th house and like, creating a physical space for whatever your hobby is. And you know, now that I think about it, I’m sure there’s probably some people – like, on YouTube sometimes I see these people that are really into like, video games. And they’ll create like, an entire floor of their house or dedicate all the space to collecting video games and storing memorabilia, or other people that are super into movies and creating an entire space at home for like, storing movie memorabilia or having like, thousands of physical movies or something like that. You would probably see that with other examples, and that’s what I’m picking up archetypally from those two examples. 

LS: Absolutely. Yeah. That’s funny. 

CB: Yeah. All right, so moving on. My next example is Malala Yousafzai, and here is the birth chart with Cancer rising. The 5th house of children is Scorpio, and the ruler of the 5th house is Mars, which is in Libra in the 4th whole sign house. And Malala is famous because her and her father set up a school for teaching young girls in Afghanistan where young girls don’t always get a childhood education, and it can be like, outlawed. So it was like, a major thing her and her father putting this together, creating a school for children. 

LS: Right. Yeah, for sure. And when I first learned about her, I was like, oh, that’s so impressive – someone being so strongwilled at such a young age and really advocating for, you know, education early on, which was of course out of her own experience, right, because she was actually shot at one point because she was a girl going to school, right? 

CB: Well, yeah, and for creating these schools. And I should have said she’s Pakistani, but the description from Google just says that she’s a Pakistani female education activist and producer of film and television. She’s the youngest Nobel Prize laureate in history, receiving the prize in 2014 at age 17, and the second Pakistani and the only Pashtun to receive a Nobel Prize. But she’s known specifically as an education activist and a human rights advocate for the education of women and children, due to, yeah, teaching in this area where the Pakistani Taliban had banned girls from attending school. 

LS: Right. Yeah. So she’s focused on children’s rights and girls’ education, but what I was gonna say is I remember when I first learned about her and I was like, wow, that’s so impressive at such a young age. And it is. But then when I learned that her father, which was very uncharacteristic, you know, for the time and place, was actually a strong advocate for girls’ education as well, and I was like, oh, okay. So then she’s like, building on that foundation that she grew up with and then could go even further at a very young age. And it’s interesting that she’s a Cancer rising, so the Moon is in Libra in the 4th as well applying very closely to that conjunction with Mars ruling the 5th house. So it’s bringing the first and 5th together as well as the 4th and the 5th. 

CB: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And that her father is also like, an education activist, and that’s like, a huge part of her story. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. All right, so that’s a good example showing other types of connections between the 4th and the 5th that can be good with the education of children in connection with the parents. 

All right. Another one I found when I was researching on AstroDatabank is a French written named Jean Genet. And the primary thing I found interesting was just a biographical thing where he was a famous French writer, has Leo rising and the Sun in Sagittarius in the 5th house and is a creative. But part of the biography that I saw is he has the ruler of the 5th house is Jupiter, which is placed in the 4th house of parents along with Mars and the South Node. And apparently, he was given up for adoption when he was young, and part of his later narrative about that is he said that his mother was a prostitute who gave him up for adoption. And I was trying to find out later like, how he found that out or if he knew that and had confirmed it and how exactly, because it seemed like the documentation was not super good on that. So I don’t know if that’s actually true, or if that was just his narrative about what he thought was the case. But regardless of which was actually the case, that was like, his narrative surrounding his origins and his like, parenthood. 

LS: He didn’t find out his exact parent, did he? Do you know? 

CB: I don’t think he did, or if he did, it was just like, it was that she was like, a single person that washed clothes – I forget the name – or something like that. But then that was what was ambiguous to me was like, I was like, is that just an inference then of what — 

LS: Sure. 

CB: An assumption that’s being made or was that actually true? And I couldn’t tell if he had actually validated it, but it was like, in reading some of the things that he said about her, it seemed like it was some strongly held belief that he had one way or another that was not like, super positive. 

LS: Right. Yeah. Well, I was just – it’s interesting that even if that part wasn’t true, kind of the connection between those houses still holds because it’s the ruler of the 5th in the 4th – also like, hidden things, right? And so his like, biological parent was hidden from him, at least for some part of his life. 

CB: Yeah. Right, exactly, because he finds out later on. And so it’s – because it’s tricky – yeah, so here it is. Some of the records just describe the mother as a seamstress or a maidservant. But it’s like, he had some kind of like, negative conceptualization because he would often refer to his mother as a “whore.” And one of the things I was reading was saying like, the self-conceptualization as the offspring of a prostitute was central to his identity, and that he constructed this idea of himself being an outcast and a rebel against societal norms so that the maternal lineage became a foundational element in his personal mythology that aligned him with like, the marginalized and the criminal underclass that populated his novels and his plays. 

So but then whether — 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: — or not that was true or not, like, I don’t really know. But anyway, that was like — 

LS: Sure.

CB: — an interesting thing I found in his biography. 

LS: Yeah. I mean, I think truth is important, but also, you know, I think we’ve seen with some other examples as well sometimes what one feels about the connections between those houses is still like, an important part of their story, even if every piece of it isn’t like, totally true. 

CB: Yeah, for sure. Well, and that’s one of the tricky things with, I don’t know, even just with parents and children when you’re looking at synastry between children and their parents. And sometimes like, different children in a family having different chart placements related to the 4th house and having different experiences of the parents. And sometimes that can be based on very literal things, like parents treating different children differently. But other times, it can be emotional or subjective things that are within the person themself that may or may not reflect who the parent is or how they’re treating them. 

LS: Absolutely. Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. All right. So let’s move onto our next 4th house example, which is the birth chart of Harvey Milk. 

LS: So Harvey Milk was the first openly gay man to be elected to public office. It was in California; he was a member of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors. So he has Aquarius rising, and Gemini is his 5th house; he has the Sun, Venus, and Jupiter in the 5th house. And then Mercury is the ruler of the 5th house, and it’s in the 4th. Mercury in the 4th in turn is exchanging signs with Venus in the 5th, so Mercury is in Venus’s sign, and Venus is in Mercury’s sign. So the 4th and 5th are very tightly connected here. And I’ve used his chart as an example before, and his is just fascinating, because basically, so his home more broadly speaking of San Francisco in particular was very connected with his sexuality, and in particular his neighborhood of the Castro. So and when he first moved into the Castro neighborhood, it was just starting – it sounded like it was just starting to become kind of like a gay mecca and became more so as he lived there. And so there’s a very strong connection between the 4th and 5th. And the 4th also sometimes representing, you know, you being known for like, where you live, and he was certainly known for both where he lived in San Francisco and in particular the Castro. 

He has a little bit of, you know, we used him in the 3rd house as an example, because he has the ruler of the 10th in the 3rd, and he was very specifically known for his neighborhood and also representing his neighborhood on the Board of Supervisors. But when someone has like, the 3rd and the 4th, you know, strongly focused on, you can see that that was like, very primary in his biography. 

CB: Yeah, absolutely. It’s just tying in topics of sex and sexuality with like, one’s city and one’s home and living situation and place of living. And some of that’s being emphasized here as well, because the degree of the IC is in the 5th house. 

LS: And there’s actually a couple more layers to this that I really love. One was, you know, when he originally moved to the Castro, he set up a camera shop with his then partner, and that’s where all of the political activities kind of were housed from. But it’s really funny that they then lived like, in the second floor of a camera shop. And so there was like, an artistic component connected with the home, which is another great like, layer of this 4th and 5th combination. The 5th house of like, creative – it was like, people went there to get their film developed and things like that. But then they also lived there. 

And then now, which I love – I actually used him as quite a like, deep dive example in a zodiacal releasing workshop this past year that will eventually become online when I get my store back up after I stop having emergencies! But the space where he and his partner lived and had the camera shop is now the site of a community art space. It’s called Queer AF – Queer Arts Featured – and it says it’s been re-envisioned as a hub for queer creatives hosting a variety of events and providing a platform for underrepresented artists. And so that just makes me really smile, too, because you know, the 4th house can be like, posthumous stuff too. But it’s also still, it was his home but it’s now being turned into like, creative hub. 

CB: Yeah, that’s amazing. I like how that ties in not just the home, but also some of those themes we talked about in the last episode of like, death and what happens after a person dies, or things relating to their legacy and things like that. 

LS: Exactly. So that made me very pleased when I found that. 

CB: Nice. That’s brilliant. 

Okay, I think that’s good then for the 4th house. And why don’t we go ahead and move on? And in the next section, I want to talk about the degree of the IC, because that’s kind of a continuation of some of the things that we’ve seen, for example, with the last one with Harvey Milk or with Tori Spelling of, you know, what happens in whole sign houses where the degree of the IC can float back and forth. And it usually in most latitudes will fall either in the 4th whole sign house or the 3rd whole sign house or the 5th whole sign house, and the degree of the IC will import 4th house significations of like, home or parents into whatever whole sign house it falls, and then it will double up the significations of like, 4th house significations and other significations. 

So we’ve already seen, for example, like, Serena Williams having the IC in the 3rd house, and her parents trained her in tennis together with her sibling, Venus Williams. But let’s look at some examples of the IC in the 5th house. 

So one of them that we already talked about was Tori Spelling just having a famous father who was in television that cast her in a hit television show. And most of that is probably coming from the mutual reception or the exchange of the ruler of the 5th in the 4th, but the IC was also there. 

We also just talked about Harvey Milk, who in addition to having a mutual reception between the 5th and the 4th, also had the degree of the IC there importing those 4th house significations into the 5th house. 

But some other ones that I thought were really interesting – one famous one is Sofia Coppola. So this is the birth chart of Sofia Coppola, who has Aquarius rising and Gemini is the 5th whole sign house of acting and creativity. And the degree of the IC is also there in the 5th whole sign house. So she has a lot of stuff going on in her chart, of course, because it’s like, she’s also Aquarius rising with Saturn in Taurus in the 4th whole sign house, the place of parents, along with the Sun. And just like her father, who also had the ruler of the Ascendant in the 4th house, so I talked about her especially in the last episode as like, a major 4th house person where the parents are very important in the life and family is. But she also has the degree of the IC in the 5th house of creativity, and she was involved in working with her father in terms of making movies from very early on in her life. And like, really early on, he cast her, I think, when she was a teenager in The Godfather III. But it was usually not regarded as like, a super great performance as an actress, and the movie was kind of panned, and her acting was kind of panned in particular in that movie. But then as she grew up, like, she started getting into directing more, and then eventually like, set herself apart from her father through her own unique directing style which eventually became like, nominated for a number of awards. And she went on to do a bunch of really famous movies like Lost in Translation or Marie Antoinette, who we were using as an example before, she directed famously as well. 

LS: Yeah. I love that she has the IC in the 5th, and then it’s like, either way you get from the 4th or the IC, you get to the benefic of sect. So Venus is ruling the 4th in a night chart, and the IC is in the 5th – it’s already importing artistic things to parents. But the ruler of the IC and the 5th is then that Mercury, which is closely conjunct Venus in a night chart. So you really get this doubling up or tripling up of just like, positive, artistic parenthood. 

CB: Yeah, absolutely. 

Okay, so the next one I wanted to look at is the birth chart of Billie Jean King. So this is the birth chart of Billie Jean King, who was a famous tennis player who has Capricorn rising and Taurus on the 5th whole sign house with the degree of the IC in the 5th house at 16 degrees of Taurus. And those are ruled by Venus, which is placed in the 10th house of career and reputation; it’s placed in Libra in its own sign along with the Moon and Neptune. And this is a great example, on the one hand, of the ruler of the 5th in the 10th, because Billie Jean King became like, a tennis champion basically at a certain point in time and set different records as being an extremely prominent tennis player. 

So let me see; I’m just pulling up the stuff. She was formerly the number one tennis player in the world, basically. But Camille Michelle Gray, who found this chart, pointed out that it’s a great example in addition with the IC in the 5th house, because both of her parents were athletic and came from a highly athletic family. So where it’s like, her mother excelled at swimming and her father played basketball and baseball and ran track. So as a result of that, it’s like, both of her parents were highly athletic and really encouraged her to be athletic as well. And they also were very supportive in like, a positive way. 

So in her autobiography, for example, I found a quote that says, and in various interviews she shared how her parents’ questions were never about the final score when she would come back from like, playing a sports game. But she said that when they picked her up from tournaments, they would also ask – they wouldn’t ask, “Did you win?” But instead, they would ask, “Did you have fun?” And “Did you try your best?” So it’s like, they were supportive in the sense of like, not just supporting whatever she wanted to do, but also encouraging her to have fun with it and have a good time and having like, a loving relationship with sports that provided a strong foundation. And that was something that I found across a number of examples with the IC in the 5th when it was well-placed was just like, having a supportive family that supports your creative or athletic interests of 5th house things. 

LS: Yeah, that’s great. And you know, you can really hear that coming through too that the ruler of the 5th and the ruler of the IC together is so well-placed, not just in the 10th, but Venus in its own sign. 

CB: Right, exactly. That it’s like, a super well-placed, auspicious one rather than something that’s like, afflicted or what have you. 

LS: Right. Because there are many parents of, you know, younger sports people who do not go, you know, “Did you have fun? Was it good?” You know, like, it can be like, a lot more pressure or you know, things like that. So yeah, that’s a great example of that. 

CB: Yeah, totally. All right. And let’s see. Another example I wanted to share was from a patron of The Astrology Podcast who had shared this with me previously and that we talked about a little bit on an episode I think a little bit last year when I interviewed her at one point. So this is from a patron and listener named Olabimpe, and she was born with Capricorn rising and Taurus on the 5th whole sign house, and the degree of the IC is there at two degrees of Taurus, and then the Lot of Fortune is later in that sign later in the 5th house. And what she wrote to me – and I’m just gonna read some of it, because the way she said it was really good. She said, 

“I’d say the biggest impact of having my IC in the 5th house is having the majority of my creativity projects focus on my ancestry.” 

And then she goes on. She says, 

“One of those creative projects was producing a virtual audio play recreation of a Broadway musical about a Nigerian musical artist that my father was known for writing about. My father’s academic book on that musician’s political importance was referenced for the original Broadway show, and he was invited to see it in the early 2000s when it premiered. I produced an audio play version in 2021 with full support and mentorship from the original producer and sound crew.” 

And then she goes on and says, 

“This was especially meaningful because my father has dramatic storytelling ancestry, and when he is hailed in what is called an oriki or a name or names of praise and acknowledgement given to Yoruba children, he is called ‘the child of the mask bearers.’ My father’s first degree was even in drama, and his plays were very popular and performed routinely on campus, so this is another very literal manifestation of the 5th house IC, especially if we see the 5th house as relevant to the theatre specifically. Almost every creative project I’ve engaged in has this element of researching my ancestry and recreating their story or stories or their work as a way to honor them. In my artist’s statement, I talk about how this kind of reflection can help future generations to heal, particularly because I’ve always felt a certain amount of grief being a first generation American and growing up far away from where my ancestry lived. For the past decade, I’ve focused on figuring out more about my family tree and conducting genealogical interviews with family members for our archive, which is related to my 4th house-7th house mutual reception. Both in creating this archive and in doing these creative projects importing this focus into the 5th house, I’m hoping to help the next generations of my family to better manage the realities of living in the diaspora and to help them feel more grounded regardless of where they live on the planet.” 

And the last point she said is, 

“Oh, also both of my parents and both of my mom’s parents were teachers professionally at different levels of education, so there’s a lineage based relationship to interacting with kids or the next generation.” 

So yeah, I thought that was an amazing example, and that was one of the early examples last year when I just started doing the 4th house research and the 5th house research that started clueing me into some important lines of understanding what it means when the IC is in the 5th house. 

LS: Yeah, that was a lovely example. 

CB: Yeah. So the next example I wanted to give is Charles Lindbergh, who is famous for what prior to like, the OJ Simpson trial in the ‘90s what used to be called like, the trial of the century, because this is the father of… He was the father and what happened is like, somebody broke into his house and stole his infant baby at one point. And I don’t remember if they tried to ransom it or something else, but later the baby was found murdered and there was this huge trial over it. This time is not exactly correct, because Astrodienst lists a slightly different timezone version of this, which still gives Scorpio rising but it has the degree of the IC a little bit earlier. But one of the things I noticed in that chart is that if you use the Astro.com version of the chart, which uses local mean time, for the IC, that transiting Mars was exactly conjunct the local mean time IC in the 5th house when the baby was stolen from his home and then murdered, basically. So I thought that was an incredibly striking example then of like, a darker manifestation of that, but having the degree of the IC representing the home, and then it being in the 5th house of children and then having transiting Mars conjoin that and having your baby literally like, abducted from your home. 

LS: Yeah, definitely. Wow. That’s striking. 

CB: Yeah. 

LS: He also has the ruler of the 5th and the IC conjunct Saturn in a night chart natally. 

CB: Ruler of the 5th and the IC conjunct Saturn natally – yeah. In the 3rd house. Yeah, definitely. 

So yeah, so that is a tough example. And then just one more example in this section was sent in by a patron. And I don’t have the chart for this one to share, I don’t believe, so I’m just gonna read the example because it was pretty straightforward. 

So this was sent in by a patron and listener named Patricia Edem, and they said, 

“I’m watching the 5th house stories episode, and I have an example that ties into the 4th and the 5th. I have the ruler of the 5th house in the 4th house, as well as the IC in the 5th whole sign house. One of the ways that this shows up for me is in house parties. As a kid growing up, my family often entertained at home, and when I moved out on my own, I hosted a lot too. I hosted parties for my friends, et cetera. Even when I had a very small place, friends would ask me to host gatherings. I have significant memories from house parties at my friend’s home. And these events would be talked about for a while. With Saturn transiting my 4th/5th house, I basically haven’t had anyone over in a while. During the partial eclipse that happened in my 5th house, I ended up hosting my first house party in years, and this was at a friend’s home. Recently I started hosting/organizing events to help people feel more at home in my current city. Jupiter rules my 5th house in a day chart.”

So I should have gotten the data so I could show the chart, but I think we get the gist of it. I thought that was a brilliant and made perfect sense once I heard it of just like, having the IC in the 5th house and hosting a lot of parties at home. 

LS: Yeah, that’s a great example. I’ve seen other charts just like that with a similar manifestation too. It’s funny to think about and look across different charts and see why the IC makes sense in the 5th, because there’s always a reason, but there’s like, a bunch of different reasons. 

CB: Yeah. Exactly. But just like, being open to the idea that sometimes the 5th house can indicate things like parties and having fun and how that can sometimes manifest very literally in significant ways is kind of important. 

LS: Yeah, absolutely. 

CB: Yeah. All right. So that was the section on the IC in the 5th house that I wanted to do, and I think now… 

All right, now we transition to talking about what happens when the ruler of the 5th house is in the 5th house itself, which is essentially having the planet in its own sign or in its own domicile. And in researching charts related to this, one of the things that I found is just that when a planet’s in its own sign in its own house, that it sometimes just stands out or excels in that area as being particularly gifted or particularly skilled at that thing, as well as one of the meanings is having greater self-autonomy in that specific area of life. 

So one of my first examples that was noted by Camille Michelle Gray is Ariana Grande, who has Venus in the 5th house and ruling the 10th and the 5th house. So let me share her chart. 

All right, so this is the birth chart of Ariana Grande, who has Capricorn rising and Venus in Taurus in the 5th whole sign house along with the IC in a night chart, and Venus is also ruling the 10th house of career and reputation, which contains the Moon, Jupiter, and the Lot of Fortune. So really excellent ruler of the 10th house of career in the 5th house of creativity, and Ariana Grande of course is an American singer and songwriter and actress. And what’s interesting is her Wikipedia biography; it says that she’s known for her four octave vocal range, which extends into the whistle register. And she’s regarded as an influential figure in pop music, including being one of the bestselling music artists of all time with estimated sales of over 90 million records. And she was also the highest paid female musician in 2020, according to Forbes magazine. 

So you know, right there that’s interesting in and of itself. But then Camille Michelle Gray writes that – she points out that Ariana Grande has been performing since she was a young child. And with her IC there with Venus in the 5th house, Ariana Grande’s parents actually actively nurtured her creative inclinations from a very young age, which is like, the intersection of creativity with home basically as we were just seeing in some of those other examples. 

So Camille continues and writes that “her creative repertoire includes acting, singing, multiple perfumes, a makeup line, multiple consumer brand sponsorships, et cetera.” That she started out on children’s television on Nickelodeon, but that she’s also known for like, who she dates and like, the love songs that she writes famously. But with Venus opposing Pluto that her dating and singing career has sometimes been informed by some tragedies, including the loss of her ex-boyfriend Mac Miller and other things that have taken place as well in terms of her love life and performances and things like that. 

So it’s like, really well-placed is the ruler of the 10th in terms of her natural skills and abilities in that area and excelling in that area, both with it ruling the 5th and the 10th, but then also just in terms of her success and some things she’s experienced as well. 

LS: Yeah. So you really hear the creative autonomy, I think, and the excellence from the ruler of the 5th in the 5th in its own sign, but also that it’s very much Venus in its own sign, right? Like —

CB: Right. 

LS: Not just like, singing and acting, but like, perfumes and makeup and things like that. It’s all Venusian 5th house stuff. So it’s like, almost like the purest 5th house kind of archetype you could get with the joy of Venus being in the 5th house and her having like, Venus in its own sign in a night chart in the 5th. 

CB: Yeah, exactly. And like, perfumes and sweet-smelling things was a signification of Venus that goes back to Valens, I believe, and is interesting because that shows up in one of the other people that we’ll talk about at some point as well, I think. 

LS: Camille also noted that she started out on children’s television – Nickelodeon – which is another 5th house signification. 

CB: Right. Yeah. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. All right. So that was that example. And then the next example that I wanted to talk about in this area was Diana Ross. So let me pull up her chart. Here’s the chart of Diana Ross with Scorpio rising and Venus is exalted in Pisces in the 5th house. And… 

LS: So she’s known as the Queen of Motown Records. She’s an American singer and actress who rose to fame in the 1960s as the lead singer of the Supremes. The Supremes became Motown’s most successful act and one of the world’s best-selling girl groups, which is interesting with the exalted Venus in the 5th. These are, again, Camille’s notes. “Ross left the group in 1970 and went on to a successful solo career with hits like ‘Ain’t No Mountain High Enough’ and ‘I’m Coming Out.’ She was —” 

CB: So the — 

LS: Oh, go ahead. 

CB: Hold on a second. So the first — 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: — one was just the Google summary that I wrote out. 

LS: Oh, okay. 

CB: But part of the broader example and notes were submitted by Camille. But in terms of the chart itself, it’s a Scorpio rising chart with Venus exalted in the 5th house conjunct the IC in a night chart. And so that’s part of the example here and part of the emphasis is just having a super exalted, well-placed planet in the 5th house and standing out as like, excelling or rising to like, the very top of your field in general. 

LS: Right. So this is the other like, best case scenario for the 5th house in terms of the planetary rulership. You know, either the ruler of the 5th in its own sign, or the ruler of the 5th exalted as it is here. Placed in — 

CB: Or — 

LS: Or sorry — 

CB: Yeah.

LS: You know what I mean. 

CB: Yeah, it’s like —

LS: Venus is exalted here in the 5th. 

CB: Yeah, Venus is exalted in the 5th, and then yeah, the ruler of the 5th itself is Jupiter which is in Leo in the 10th whole sign house, which is tying in career and things like that as well. 

LS: Right. There were so many people that we could have put in the 10th house section, and we had to kind of like, take some and put in other places because many people are known for 5th house things who have careers in that. 

CB: Yeah. Especially a lot of artists and entertainers and things like that. So Camille was writing about how Diana Ross was the lead singer of the vocal group the Supremes, who became Motown’s most successful act in the 1960s, and one of the world’s bestselling girl groups of all times. She then went on to have a successful solo career and also saw success as an actress, including her Golden Globe award winning and Academy Award nominated portrayal of Billie Holiday in the film Lady Sings the Blues. 

So that she actually became the first African-American actress to receive an Academy Award nomination for a debut film performance. So that was pretty amazing. And then Camille also points out that with the IC in the 5th house conjunct her Venus, she actually grew up living next to legendary R’n’B singer, producer, and songwriter Smokey Robinson, who actually lent her the money to take modeling and cosmetology classes. She also took classes in clothing design, millinery, pattern-making, and tailoring as well as providing hairdressing services to her neighbors for extra money. So Camille points out that Venus in Pisces is just a multi-disciplinary creative talent with that placement.

She has five children, including the famous actress and business owner Tracee Ellis Ross, who we talked about in the last episode I think with the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th, right? 

LS: I think she —

CB: Yeah. 

LS: — was, yeah. 

CB: Yeah, because it was Taurus rising with Venus in Virgo in the 5th whole sign house. 

LS: Right. Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. So yeah – awesome example. And again, a great example of like, planets in exaltation rising to the top of one’s field. 

LS: I mean, and it’s also funny, right, that that’s like, her daughter is also known for 5th house things. 

CB: Yeah. Exactly. And became prominent in 5th house things. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: All right. Let’s see. Another example that I was gonna share is the birth chart of Matthew McConaughey, who’s a famous actor who has Gemini rising and Venus in Libra in its own sign in the 5th whole sign house very closely conjunct Jupiter – both of them at 22 degrees of Libra – and then Jupiter is ruling the 10th whole sign house of career. 

So Matthew McConaughey became a leading Hollywood actor especially in the early 2010s; he was just in this like, streak of major, major movies and huge career success for a while that was sometimes jokingly referred to as like, the McConaissance. 

LS: Some of the notes Camille contributed to this one as well, and — 

CB: Right. 

LS: — one of the funnier ones was that he was known for his relaxed, fun loving attitude, and his mantra of “All right, all right, all right,” which is like, very easy-going 5th house fun-loving kind of vibe. 

CB: Right. One of the cool things that Camille found that is he actually founded an award-winning foundation that’s aimed at helping teenagers and youth lead active lives and make good choices that’s called the Just Keep Living Foundation, which also matches – she points out – the really uplifting, supportive nature of both benefics being combined there in the 5th house. 

LS: Nice. 

CB: Yeah. So I mean, one of the things about this is just like, subjectively, he’s a really good actor and excelled at being a good actor. And I think he started out doing more mild roles like in Dazed and Confused, and then he got – I mean, interestingly, in the 2000s, he was stuck – not stuck, but – he did a lot of romcoms, basically. He was like, the love interest in a lot of romcoms, which is also a funny 5th house things. But then eventually like, emerged as a dramatic actor doing some really major performances, like, you know, Dallas Buyers Club, and I think he was nominated for a number of awards for Dallas Buyers Club. 

LS: Yeah. It was a really good movie. Yeah, and focused on sexuality in part. 

Yeah, and it’s really funny that he has the ruler of the 10th, once again, in the 5th as well as the ruler of the 5th in its own sign – Venus – so you’ll find lots and lots of, you know, major creative professionals with a 10th-5th combination. 

Camille also noted that she read his autobiography, and he’s apparently really into sports betting and other forms of gambling and is an avid golf player. So again, like, more positivity around 5th house things. But he did have like, one kind of notable negative 5th house thing that came out. He was famously arrested for playing the bongos naked in his Austin, Texas, home surrounded by marijuana paraphernalia, and neighbors called in a noise complaint, and she was noting the 5th house as a place of like, hedonism and other things like partying, pleasure, et cetera. 

CB: I mean, whom among us, you know, hasn’t had that happen? 

LS: Yeah. Well, he has a night chart, so it’s like, Venus is really well-placed, but like, Jupiter is sometimes over excess in night charts. 

CB: Right. Yeah. And the last thing is that he also noted – Camille notes – is that one of his life goals, his main life goal, was always to become a father with those positive 5th house placements, which he did eventually become. 

LS: Nice. 

CB: Yeah. All right, so thanks to Camille for that or basically like, the last three ones in a row. Actually, depending — 

LS: I think this next one might be, too! 

CB: The next one is also – yeah. 

LS: Yeah. Joey Chestnut? 

CB: Yeah. So Camille found a lot of really good ones, and this one was like, particularly funny. So the next birth chart is the birth chart of Joey Chestnut, who’s interesting because he’s a professional eater. And he’s like, one of the top like, most world-renowned professional competitive eaters in the world — 

LS: Competitive eaters. 

CB: Yeah, not professional eater – competitive eaters. With Gemini rising and Venus in Libra in the 5th whole sign house along with the Lot of Fortune and Mars. So it’s like, Venus in its own sign, and literally like, excelling at eating. Like, something people normally can do for like, pleasure or enjoyment, but you add in like, Mars there as well, and it’s competitive. Competitive eating. 

LS: Eating really fast. 

CB: Right. 

LS: With Mars. 

CB: Yeah. Eating really fast. And so Camille pointed out that he’s a competitive eater that holds 55 world records across 55 disciplines and is ranked first in the world by the Major League Eating organization. So he’s won the Mustard Yellow Belt world record 17 times and is considered to be the greatest competitive eater in history. So I thought that was pretty amazing, because we did a whole thing in the last episode about ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th house and people that dedicate their life or their career towards games – like, chess or like tennis or other things like that. But evidently, archetypally, like, that archetype of doing things that people normally do for fun and enjoyment and sometimes when really important planets in the chart are placed there are when planets are really well-placed there, you can excel at doing other things that people just normally do for fun as well. 

LS: Right. Yeah. And it’s interesting; he has the Ascendant ruler in the 7th conjunct Jupiter. I think we’ve seen that in a number of times at this point like, people whose sort of vocation involves competitors or either one-on-one or just like, competing against other people. 

CB: Yeah. Competing as well as just like, the ruler of the Ascendant as the body and like, he was literally able to expand his body — 

LS: Right! 

CB: — cavity, where like — 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: — one of the competitive eating things is like, eating the most hot dogs as —

LS: Right. 

CB: — fast as possible to beat the other people. 

LS: That’s really funny, and that probably like, speaks to his having some sort of natural greater capacity – like, physical capacity – for that. 

CB: Yeah. Like, capacity for that naturally as well as like, training to do it as well. 

LS: Right, both. But like, you know how sometimes competitive swimmers – like, they have particular biological qualities that make them really good at that compared to the average person. And that just seems like one of those with yeah, as you pointed out with the body. 

CB: Right. Like Michael Phelps has like, a bigger lung capacity or something like that. Wasn’t that — 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: — one of them? 

LS: Yeah, I was thinking of that kind of thing.

CB: Yeah, that’s a good point. All right, cool. Well, good find on the part of Camille with that one, yeah? 

All right, so let’s move on. My next example, the next one is actually your example, right? 

LS: Yeah. So Julius Wilford “Nicky” Arnstein was an American professional gambler and con artist. And this is another ruler of the 5th in its own sign. So he had Scorpio rising with Pisces 5th house, Jupiter in Pisces actually stationary in its own sign of Pisces in the 5th. And so there’s a really strong focus on 5th house things here. And interestingly, it’s also the ruler of the 2nd house of how you make a living and your own financial things in the 5th house. And this is one of those where it’s like, games of chance or speculative things can go in the 5th house. And what’s funny – there’s a few funny things about it, I thought, anyway. As a teenager, he rode in professional bike races. And that’s actually how he met the people that drew him into the world of gambling. And so it’s another like, 5th house thing – like, professional bike racing, right? It’s like — 

CB: Right. 

LS: — a sport or like, yeah, a race. And so you know, he had a little bit of the gambling, he had a little bit of the con artist going on in his life. I think the gambling part is in the 5th house. But and he did go to prison at one point for the con artist piece. But he actually lived long enough to see himself immortalized in the 1964 Broadway musical called Funny Girl as well as the 1968 film version of that and the 1975 sequel, Funny Lady. So he’s like, accidentally also being immortalized in other 5th house things like, you know, the world of film and musicals. 

CB: Brilliant. I love it. 

LS: Yeah. So I thought that was a great one. I’m also really happy whenever I find like, people born in the 1800s that have an exact birth time. I guess his is rounded, but it’s still – it was like, they were keeping records. This was Germany. 

CB: Yeah. And having a birth time at all. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Definitely. All right. The next example was sent in by a patron and listener of The Astrology Podcast, and this is for a native named Paul Germain. And let me see. So Paul is a successful children’s television writer and director, and he was one of the creators of the Nickelodeon animated series Rugrats, which is like, actually about babies or children basically. And his chart has Aquarius rising and the Sun and Mercury and the Moon all in Gemini in the 5th whole sign house. So it’s like, Mercury is in its own sign like, dignified and excelling at the 5th house topic not just of creativity but evidently also of children in this instance as well, like, coming up in a very literal way in the native’s life. So his son was the inspiration of basically the main character in Rugrats, which was Tommy Pickles, who was like, a baby basically in the series. I was a big actually like, Rugrats fan in the 1990s. It was like, a great cartoon. And one of the things that’s funny about this was that they were saying that Jupiter was in or trine the 5th house when each of his three shows plus the movie premiered. So it kept having like, trines to those 5th house placements. And then the final thing is that he has three kids who all write professionally, which is another really brilliant Mercury in Gemini in the 5th house of children signification. 

LS: Yeah, definitely. I mean, it’s funny too that it was children’s television, because the 5th house already represents children, Mercury as a general significating planet can also be related with youth, right? 

CB: Right. 

LS: Yeah. So it’s kind of like, doubling up and reinforcing that. 

CB: Yeah. Absolutely. So yeah, so that was an amazing example. So shout out to his daughter for sending that in, who was a student of mine; I appreciate it. 

LS: Nice. 

CB: All right. Let’s see, moving on. There’s just a few more. One of them that’s actually like that that’s an interesting parallel is Nadya Suleman who was sometimes famously known as Octomom in the press in the late, what, 2000s and early 2010s, because she became pregnant with eight children at the same time. 

LS: It was eight children at the same time, but she’s also had other groups of multiples, and so she has actually 14 children in total.

CB: Hold on a sec – the audio cut out for a second. 

LS: Oh. 

CB: Oh wait. Now it’s back. Okay. Well, let’s see, let’s keep going and see how it goes. 

LS: Yeah. Okay. 

CB: So she was born with Aquarius rising and Mercury in Gemini in the 5th whole sign house copresence with the IC, which is earlier in the sign at eight degrees of Gemini. And that Mercury has an overcoming sextile from Jupiter, which is at 22 degrees of Aries sextiling Mercury, and then Mercury’s also trining Uranus very closely at 28 degrees of Libra in the 9th house. So she became famous because of like, being pregnant with eight babies at the same time. 

LS: Yeah. And this is another funny one where it’s funny that it’s Mercury in the 5th house and not just, you know, the 5th house ruler in its own sign. Because Mercury is also related to multiples, right? Like, things that are more than one. And she had not just the eright babies at one time, but several sets of multiple children. 

CB: Right. 

LS: That was the most famous group, but you know, she had other ones too. 

CB: Okay. Yeah. And what were the circumstances surrounding that again? 

LS: So the doctor implanted more embryos than he was supposed to – like, 12 instead of the typical three. By the way, some of these additional notes are from Lindsey —

CB: Yeah. Lindsey Turner submitted this one. 

LS: Yeah. So supposedly, this was at Suleman’s request that she didn’t want any of the embryos to be discarded for religious reasons. But that later got the doctor expelled from the American Society for Reproductive Medicine because there was a whole, you know, public backlash against this being like, unethical to do that many at once, because it was risky. 

CB: Okay. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. So she ended up having a total of like, 14 children all from IVF. And then she did a reality television show about raising that many children at one point, right? 

LS: Yeah, she did. And there’s this great quote from her where she said, “I was looking at myself, and I acknowledged that I wasn’t in love at all with him” – her husband – “I was in love with having children.” 

So yeah. You see this is another example where the ruler of the 5th in its own sign in the 5th, there’s like, a very strong focus and like, a clear ability to go forward with 5th house things.

CB: Right. Absolutely. Like, other people were seeing it like, excelling in that area in some sense or standing out in that area. And one of the other funny things that Lindsey wrote was that there was a Mercury retrograde in Gemini in her 5th house during the time of her IVF treatment, which was 31 weeks before giving birth on January 26th, 2009. So there may have been some sort of activation there that was happening by transit, and really, you know, like, a lot of these examples, there are activations of the houses that we’re talking about. But we’re often either not dwelling on that or not digging into that more just because it’d take a huge amount of time. 

LS: Right. Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. All right. Awesome. Well, thanks to Lindsey Turner for finding that example. 

Let’s see. Another one was Prince Charles, now King Charles, of the UK. I just thought this one was interesting, because he was born with Leo rising and Jupiter in Sagittarius in the 5th whole sign house conjunct Mars in Sagittarius in the 5th whole sign house. And it’s like, one of his children – probably Prince William – will become king at some point once King Charles dies. So on the one hand, you have that like, Jupiter there in Sagittarius in the 5th house in terms of like, raising a child to eventually become king one day. But on the other hand, you have Mars there, and there’s been some famous conflicts over the past decade with his other son, Prince Harry, who famously left the family over the past few years. 

LS: Right. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, it’s interesting. There’s often a 5th house emphasis for people’s charts for whom the idea of succession is very primary. Like we saw with Marie Antoinette’s with the ruler of the 5th in the first. So here is a similar emphasis in a different way with Jupiter in its own sign in Sagittarius. And a little kind of funny, because Jupiter is associated with royalty, you know? 

CB: Right. Yeah. Absolutely. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah, totally. Okay. So let’s see. Other ones – this one is a little different, but one of the ones I found of a planet in its own sign – this is the birth chart of Toni Wolff who was famously the mistress of Carl Gustav Jung of the famous like, psychologist. And she was born with Leo rising and Jupiter in Sagittarius in the 5th whole sign house conjunct Mars. And they had like, this long-term relationship that spanned many years. And Jung himself had a wife that he lived together and stayed with, but then he also like, spent time with this woman, Toni Wolff, and some of that relationship I think was dramatized in some different movies and stuff like that. But I thought it was interesting how the 5th house is like, a major component in terms of her chart and in terms of having Jupiter in the 5th house in a night chart. 

LS: Yeah, absolutely. And you know what’s interesting – we were talking in the last episode about, at least in the last episode, about the differentiation of similarity of the 5th house and the 7th house in terms of relationships. And we both agreed that there’s frequently lots of overlap between the two, and they’re not always like, just very distinct from each other. But I do think this kind of situation is sometimes where you see more of a pure 5th house things going on where it’s like, a very clearly, you know, it’s a relationship that’s like, not legitimized, not formalized, and it’s very clearly focused on pleasure, but there’s no plans to make one like, a legal partner. I think that is sometimes more when you see the 5th house show up more distinctly. 

CB: Yeah. For sure. And that’s one of the reasons I wanted to do this example, because it does bring up that distinction sometimes where on the one day in the previous episodes, we’ve talked about how sometimes there is a lot of overlap between the 5th and 7th houses and sometimes there’s not as much of a distinction as people want to put on those houses because of the close similarities. But then on the other hand, sometimes you do run into cases like this where there is a clear distinction and you can start to see how the 5th and 7th houses can be differentiated sometimes. 

LS: Yeah. Sometimes. 

CB: Yeah. So I think this was like, from Wikipedia, but it said, “It is widely acknowledged by historians and scholars that Toni Wolff had a deep and enduring intimate relationship with the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung, a connection that has often been characterized as that of a mistress. Their bond, however, extended far beyond a simple affair, deeply influencing Jung’s personal and professional life for several decades.” 

Let’s see, it was an unconventional, their relationship was complex. “It was known to Jung’s wife Emma, and Wolff was a regular presence in the Jung household, often joining the family for Sunday meals. This arrangement, while reportedly causing strain, was maintained throughout their lives.” 

So anyway. Just different things and different dynamics that can come up sometimes and in terms of being able to articulate some of those things when looking at the chart.

LS: Right. Interesting. And you know what’s really interesting also about this chart is the 5th house is so much stronger than the 7th, right? It’s like —

CB: Right. 

LS: The 5th house is like, Jupiter in its own sign. The 7th house was ruled by Saturn in a night chart, closely conjunct the Ascendant – like, five degrees off the Ascendant or so. So it’s like, there’s almost like, I don’t know if she married at any point. But at least with her relationship with Jung, it’s almost like a focal point of the lack of formalized partnership, whereas the 5th house is really strong. 

CB: Yeah, for sure. And you know, there’s probably some like, nuances or details that could be worked out there for people that are more familiar with the biographies or even obviously like, the people themselves probably would understand some of the nuances there even better than we can ever attempt to understand. But it’s clear that there’s some things going on there for sure. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. Which I meant to mention. We forgot to mention in the last two episodes, but it’s like, we did a lot of chart research ourselves. We got some help from people – from like, you know, Camille Michelle Gray, Lindsey Turner, and Orla who sent in some chart examples. And we’ve tried for many of these people to familiarize ourselves with their biographies as much as we can and the things that stand out as being relevant. But I’m sure there’s gonna be things that we miss from different biographies that people who are more familiar with the individual biographies or people that we’re talking about. And so we would love for people not to yell at us, but to like, if you notice something – some additional piece – that is relevant that you wanna point out, then post a comment on YouTube and let us know if you see something in chart that you know about from their biography that sheds additional light on some of the themes that we’re looking at here in terms of the 5th house or what have you. You know, then this can become more of like, a community project to fill out our understanding and deepen our understanding. Because that’s one of the fun things about doing these research projects is that you’ll see a birth chart that’ll come up and you’ll cast the chart, and it’s like, you’ll see the placement. But you don’t really know fully how that works out, except for broadly. But then the more and more you read a person’s biography, the more you realize it speaks to that in very specific ways. And so it’s fun to learn more and more about the person and find out more about that placement as you go. But obviously, there’s like, a limit point in terms of time as far as we could go into some of these biographies. 

LS: Yeah, definitely. So we included charts for which there was definitely like, a strong argument for those placements being significant with regard to the 5th house. But we’re sure that there are also some more that we aren’t aware of. So yeah, definitely add those in the YouTube comments if you happen to know them more closely. 

CB: Yeah. For sure. 

All right, so let’s see. Moving on. The very last example in this one that I had is the birth chart of Marc Maron who’s a famous comedian and podcast host who was born with Taurus rising and Mercury in Virgo in the 5th whole sign house retrograde, but it’s actually stationing direct within a day and conjunct Pluto and Uranus, and it’s ruling the 2nd house of finances. And my primary thing here is just that he’s like, a standup comedian that eventually hit it big and became really successful because he was one of the first comedians to start a podcast relatively early on called the WTF podcast and became famous in the early 2010s because I think like, for example, like, Obama went on his podcast at one point because it was such a popular and major leading podcast. 

LS: Interesting. That’s actually also really interesting with not just the ruler of the 5th in its own sign, but it’s like, trine the Midheaven in the 9th which politics is often assigned to. 

CB: Yeah. Exactly. And he’s also known for being very political. And like, he’s doing a whole media blitz right now going on different podcasts to promote his latest special, and yeah, and in the special, he’s being very open about sometimes criticizing other comedians or other people for promoting negative political things and things like that. So his political openness is very open. 

LS: Right. Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. For sure. But I mainly wanted to point it out just as like, the connection with the planet being dignified and excelling or standing out in that area of comedy in this instance – like, standup comedy. And then also with Mercury ruling the 2nd house, like, becoming successful and being able to be successful as a comedian financially and have that support a person as opposed to let’s say some of the other artists we looked at earlier with the 2nd house who like, maybe did art and were good at it, but maybe struggled to have it support them or to make a living doing what they loved doing. 

LS: Right. Yeah. So in this case, Mercury in its own sign is really well supporting not only the 5th but also the 2nd house. 

CB: Yeah. Exactly. And doing it as standup but then also eventually like, talking and doing podcasts as well and being kind of a trailblazer in that sense. 

All right. I think that’s good for that set. Why don’t we move on to the 6th house? 

All right. So my first example in the 6th house and the connection with the 5th and 6th house is Maria Montessori, who’s famous at this point for nowadays we are familiar with that name of like, Montessori schools, which is like, a specific type of school for children that outlines an educational program that goes back to her. And she was born with Leo rising and Sagittarius is the 5th whole sign house, and it contains Saturn in a night chart, and Saturn is ruling the 6th house. And one of the things that’s interesting about her life story is that originally in developing some of her educational programs, she wanted to create a school program for children with learning disabilities or created her program after working with children with disabilities, and then starting to get a better sense of what she felt like would be a good educational program for children. 

LS: Yeah. That’s really interesting. I didn’t know that piece about her biography before you found that. 

CB: Yeah. That’s like, partially behind that and behind the creation of the school to some extent or played a contributing role in terms of having a connection where sometimes traditionally the 6th can be associated with traditionally illnesses or sometimes physical disabilities or other things like that. 

LS: For sure. And you also found that she had a child out of wedlock, which was like, a scandal at the time, right? 

CB: Yeah. So there’s a whole other part of her life that’s connected with the fact that Saturn is ruling not just the 6th house, but also the 7th house of relationships, and it’s placed in the 5th house of children. And she had a child who was born out of wedlock, which was considered really scandalous at the time. And the father was this fellow doctor who codirected this Orthophrenic School in Rome with her. But in order to avoid scandal and avoid social and professional repercussions, she basically kept her relationship secret as well as the birth of her son secret. So her child was sent to live with another family in the countryside near Rome, and Maria would visit him regularly, but additionally didn’t reveal that she was his mother. So later in life as the child grew older, he eventually learned the truth about his parentage and eventually went to live with his mother, with Maria, and then they actually ended up working closely together to promote the Montessori method of education later on in life, which was kind of like, a nice touching part to that. But you can see the interesting difficulties where it’s like, we’re looking at a night chart here with Saturn in the 5th house, so we would expect some of the greatest challenges would come up in the sphere of children. And then since it’s ruling the 7th house, it’s like, having this relationship that wasn’t a marriage and then having a child and then having to hide the child and everything else. 

LS: Right. For sure. I wonder if there’s something to the ruler of the 6th in the 5th with regard to like, something about the 6th signifying subordinates or people who are on like, a lower social station with regard to that being like, having an illegitimate child being a real taboo at the time and that being actually considered to make you, you know, lower socially if it were known. 

CB: Yeah. That could be. And also just like —

LS: And also she worked with him. 

CB: Yeah, that she worked with her child. Like — 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: — the ruler of the 6th in the 5th and like, one who works with their children at work, for example. 

LS: Yeah. That’s great. I like that. 

CB: Yeah. Because one of the later examples we’ll see is a connection between the 5th and the 6th, and it was like, somebody that started working for a sports company for like, Nike. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: So symbolically, I can see how both would make sense. 

Another one that we’ve talked about previously was King Louie XVI, and here is his chart with Virgo rising and Saturn in Capricorn in the 5th whole sign house ruling the 6th house of like, illness and physical issues. So we had talked about him previously, right?

LS: Yeah. So he was the one who was married to Marie Antoinette, and it seemed to be, from their biographies, that he had some sort of issue that was perhaps a medical condition although it wasn’t, you know, completely clear. But he had some sort of issue where he couldn’t – he either had trouble having sex or it was painful or something like that, and therefore they did not have children for much longer than average. Like, you know, over seven years later. And so he has the ruler of the — 

CB: Yeah. 

LS: — 6th house of illness and injury in the 5th house of children, sexuality, and reproduction. 

CB: Yeah. So I just thought that was really interesting, because it became a big like, scandal, and it was like, huge, especially for her and her identity and everything else. And we remember that she had Saturn in the 7th house. But for him, it’s like, Saturn in the 5th house ruling the 6th, and they don’t know for sure like, what the issue is, but it’s highly speculated that it may have been a medical issue that made it painful for him to have sex. So it’s an interesting manifestation of having the ruler of the 6th house of physical injury in the 6th house being this Saturn that’s like, retrograde, and making it physically painful to have sex. But then after seven years, they eventually figured something out and they were able to overcome it and start having children and start having sex. And that also speaks a little bit to not just Saturn sometimes indicating delays, but Saturn’s also retrograde, which itself can sometimes like, delay the significations of what the planet wants to signify until later in the life. 

LS: For sure. But it’s also interesting that this is a day chart, and so even though Saturn is retrograde and ruling the 6th, it is in its own sign in a day chart, and therefore it’s not something that was completely blocked for his whole lifetime but just delayed. 

CB: Yeah. So it became like, a surmountable difficulty of like, the delineation is like, you’ll have a surmountable difficulty in the sphere of physical issues and sex and sexuality. But you may be able to overcome it at some point through great striving or effort. And it’s also nice because it’s mitigated by that Venus in the 2nd house in Libra, which is overcoming Saturn through a superior square. 

LS: Right. 

CB: Yeah. So that is a good story and kind of like, a success story in terms of that. Yeah. So one of them was the birth chart of Monica Lewinsky, who was born with Libra rising and Jupiter ruling the 6th house of work, and it’s placed in the 5th house of sex and sexuality. Became famous in the 1990s for having an affair with Bill Clinton like, in the White House, and then it blew up into this big national media thing. But with that, I just thought it was interesting, because the 6th house is traditionally the house that’s associated with work and the workplace, and the 5th house with sex and sexuality, and there was just a very literal instance of that in her life and biography. 

LS: Absolutely. Yeah. And this, you know, in someone else’s life biography, you could perhaps see like, that they actually worked with a 5th house topic, you know, like some of the other people we had earlier with the 2nd house connection with the 5th might actually work in the field of sexuality. But in this case, it was just the workplace and sexuality connection. 

CB: Right. Yeah. So that’s pretty straightforward. And then the next one was one that you found, right? 

LS: So the next one’s the chart of Theodor Adorno. And he had Virgo rising and the 5th house is Capricorn; it’s ruled by Saturn in its own sign of Aquarius in the 6th house. So he has a very Saturnian 5th and 6th house connection going on. And it’s not actually totally clear whether this was a day or night chart, because the Ascendant and the Sun are somewhat close together. And so anyway, we don’t know for sure. But either way, it’s quite Saturnian. So he was a German philosopher and social theorist, and he was a fierce – this is the part that’s funny to me about the 5th house, because you know, if you look at philosophers’ charts, like, their own philosophies always speak their natal charts. And so he was a fierce critic of what he called “the culture industry,” which included movies, popular music, television, et cetera. Also jazz, weirdly. He was very anti-jazz. He seemed a little bit like a music snob. 

So Saturn as the ruler of the 5th in the 6th even describes the concept of the culture industry, right? It’s like, merging the topics of like, entertainment or fun with work or with yeah, like, a work-related topic rather than just fun. And I got a couple great quotes about this. Both quotes are from his work, The Culture Industry. The first one says, “Amusement under late capitalism is the prolongation of work. It is sought after as an escape from the mechanized work process, and to recruit strength in order to be able to cope with it again. But at the same time, mechanization has such power over a man’s leisure and happiness, and so profoundly determines the manufacturer of amusement goods that his experiences are inevitably after images of the work process itself.” 

And I thought that was an amazing quote, because it just so clearly speaks the combination of the 5th and the 6th and how he’s kind of not just like, writing about conceptions – like, theoretical conceptions of culture industry – but saying it’s not even separate from work. They’re like, connected. 

CB: Right. Yeah. For sure. That’s pretty brilliant. 

LS: And the second one was just about the topic of hobbies with the 5th house. You can look at this chart and imagine this person. Maybe he either doesn’t have strong hobbies or has like, serious hobbies with the Saturn. He wrote, “I have no hobby. As far as my activities beyond the bounds of my recognized profession are concerned, I take them all without exception very seriously. So much so that I should be horrified by the idea that they had anything to do with hobbies – preoccupations in which I had become mindlessly infatuated in order to kill the time – had I not become hardened by experience to such examples of this now widespread barbarous mentality.” He was like, pretty down on like, 5th house things! 

CB: Yeah. He does not sound like a fun guy to have a party with. 

LS: No. He was like, part of this group of philosophers in Germany, and I saw someone write that he was perhaps the most pessimistic of the entire group. 

CB: Oh wow. Okay. 

LS: But I just love that he was like, known for conceptualizing things about the culture industry, but he was also like, very – the 6th house piece is also that he thought that because movies and music and so forth, like in his lifetime I think became such a big business thing, that he thought that individual human beings – he was coming from like, partially a Marxist perspective – but individual human beings were diminished and subordinated via those things. That they thought they were having fun, but they were actually losing their own individual creativity and being subordinated to like, capitalism or the capitalist media machine, which is also very 6th house connected to the 5th. 

CB: Okay. Wow. 

LS: Yeah. Anyway! 

CB: That’s pretty good! 

LS: So. Yep! 

CB: Cool. All right. Good times with the 5th and just showing the full spectrum of 5th house things. 

All right. Let me see. So the next example was submitted by Camille Michelle Gray who found this one. So this is the birth chart for Sydney Biddle Barrows, and it says that she was an American businesswoman and socialite who became known as an escort agency owner under the name Sheila Devin. She later became known as the Mayflower Madam. 

So her chart for those listening to the audio versions, we’re looking at a chart with Scorpio rising and Pisces is the 5th whole sign house, and it contains the North Node. And the ruler of the 5th house traditionally is Jupiter, which is placed in Aries in the 6th whole sign house in the place of work and employees. And Jupiter is also ruling the 2nd house of finances where we find Venus in a night chart. 

So let’s see. The main part about this… She wrote a book about her experience of running a high-class prostitution business, but also two books about sexual etiquette is one of the points that Camille made. And when I was looking at this and reading up on the biography and like, Wikipedia and stuff, one of the things that struck me is that I think this is actually about her having employees and that she benefited financially, which is the 2nd house, from sex work, which is the 5th house, that was being done by her employees, which is the 6th house because the 6th house has always traditionally been like, people that work for you, which can sometimes mean like, contractors, but it can also mean your employees if you actually run a business. 

I mean, alternatively, it’s possible that it may just tie together literally like, the topic of sex, which is the 5th house, and work, which is the 6th. But there’s something going on there just in terms of those connections here. And what was interesting is I found that later in her career since the 1990s, she reinvented herself as a management consultant and author and public speaker, and that drawing on the business acumen she employed while she was running her other service, her consulting work now actually focuses on customer service and experience. And that’s like, literally – I think I took that from Wikipedia or something like that. So I thought it was amazing that this word of like, “customer service and experience” is coming up with Jupiter in the 6th house. And it’s literally about like, trying to make your customer experience positive. 

LS: Right. Yeah. It’s interesting. Yeah, I do usually find prominent placements in the 6th house where people who are focused on employees – like, H.R. Or something like that. But yeah, that’s like, a perfect ruler of the 5th in the 6th in terms of her employers were, you know, the ones doing the sexual work, and then she was making money from that. 

CB: Right. Yeah. So okay, so moving onto the next example. One of the ones I found when I was looking for like, ruler of the 5th in the 6th was this is the birth chart of the rapper Eazy-E, who was born with Aries rising and 5th house is Leo, and it’s ruled by the Sun, which is in Virgo in the 6th house of illness conjunct Pluto and Uranus and Mercury retrograde, which are all in that house. And they’re being opposed by Saturn in the 12th house in a night chart. 

So Eazy-E was, at the end of his life, famously he ended up contracting AIDS it is thought from sexual encounters, and he ended up passing away in the early 1990s of AIDS. But it was a really notable example of that early on because he was such a prominent and such a famous rapper to die of the disease, and I think it really woke up a lot of people about that, about the potential of it, as well as the need for like, safe sex and using protection and different things like that. And then later, his story was dramatized a few years ago when they made a documentary – or not a documentary. They made like, a Hollywood movie that was Straight Outta Compton that was like, the early rap group of like, Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg and Eazy-E and Ice Cube and everybody else, and like, him passing away of AIDS was kind of like, the emotional low point of the movie towards the end of the movie that became dramatized. 

LS: Yeah. That’s definitely like, a combination of the 5th and the 6th and not just that, but the ruler of the 5th being so closely conjunct Pluto in the 6th, I think, speaks to not only I’m sure the sizable musical entertainment impact he had, but also the taboo of that particular illness at the time and coming from the 5th house. 

CB: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Especially in that time period of like, the early — 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: — 1990s. 

LS: Right, yeah. That’s what I mean. 

CB: Other stuff. When I was looking for ruler of the 5th in the 7th, another example that came up in the databases was the birth chart of Maria Shriver, who was born with Taurus rising and Mercury in Virgo – or sorry, Virgo is the 5th whole sign house and the ruler is Mercury in the 6th house. And famously, her husband was Arnold Schwarzenegger, but towards the end of their marriage it was discovered that he had secretly fathered a child with the long-time maid who had worked for the couple for a long time. And then it came out, and it led to the dissolution of their marriage. And on the one hand, it’s like, obviously there’s a lot of stuff going on here, and a lot of this speaks more to like, the more tough part of her chart is actually the 7th house where we have the Sun and Saturn in a night chart in the 7th house of marriage and the partner. But then I did notice that it’s like, the ruler of the 7th house of marriage is like, in the 6th house, and then the ruler of the 5th house is in the 6th house. So there’s something that’s like, drawing us to the 6th house and like, those that work for you or employees as we talked about previously and like, importing that topic of relationships and sex and sexuality, and then just a very specific manifestation of that in her life with Mercury, Mars, and Neptune conjunct in the 6th house. 

LS: Right. Yeah. I mean, and yeah, the topic of a child or sexuality is like, in the 6th house of employees conjunct Neptune which can be secrets, but it’s also the ruler of the 12th in the 6th with those, which is sort of doubling up that meaning. Hiddenness. 

CB: Yeah. For sure. 

Okay. So that was it with that. And there was only one other example chart, but it was an anonymous one, and it was somebody that had the ruler of the 5th house of games in the 6th house of work. And they grew up and ended up working for a famous company, which is like, Nike, where they work for another company and they act as an employee for that company, but it’s a sports company. So I just thought that was a very literal manifestation of having the 5th house of sports in the 6th house of work, and then working for like, this big corporation that focuses on sports, essentially. 

LS: Yeah. That’s a great combo and a very constructive combination of the 5th and 6th. 

CB: Yeah. So and that’s a good one to end on, because it just – obviously, there’s a very wide variety of possible manifestations of different houses, especially when you start combining them, as well as a whole spectrum of you know, positive to really challenging ways that different placements can manifest, depending on the placement. 

LS: Right. 

CB: Yeah. All right, I think that’s good for the 6th house, so why don’t we take a little break? 

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All right, we’re back from break, and we are gonna resume by talking about the 7th house when it’s connected with the ruler of the 5th house in different ways. So the 7th house is like, relationships, partnership, and other people in general, especially direct one-on-one interactions and relationships. 

So our first example chart in the 7th house is one we talked about yesterday already in the previous episode, which is Jill Biden. So we talked about her previously having the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th house of children and being a lifelong educator and promoter of education. But then the ruler of the 5th house itself is in the 7th house of relationships. And she was the second wife of Joe Biden, because his first wife was killed in a car accident, and then they ended up getting together and so then she became a stepmother to his other children. And so that sometimes you see when – as we talked about – when there’s a connection between the 5th and the 7th, because otherwise that sounds abstract. Like, of course children would be connected with relationships. But sometimes it can mean the topic of relationships is imported into your life from somewhere else or from someone else. 

LS: Right. Definitely. Yeah. And it’s mostly coming from that ruler of the 5th in the 7th, for sure. Additional layers are the ruler of the 8th, which is the Moon, is also in the 7th, so that kind of combines the idea of one’s partner having a loss, and therefore her having sort of like, new stepchildren. 

CB: Yeah. So and in fact, a friend of ours – friend of the show – Patrick Watson has a similar placement where Patrick has Leo rising and Aquarius is the 7th house, and it’s ruled by Saturn, which is in the 5th house of children. So the ruler of the 7th house of marriage and relationships is in the 5th house of children, and when he met his future wife, she already had a child, and so Patrick ended up becoming a stepfather, and then they had more children together and have had a long and happy family. But it was like, again, just one of those instances where becoming a father to somebody else’s child, essentially, is part of the initial delineation. And that also ties back a little bit in this instance with Saturn as well, which we talked about yesterday where Valens gives one of those weird significations for Saturn of like, the fathers of other people’s children, which I always thought was very abstract. But sometimes it can be very literally true. 

LS: Yeah, definitely. And I remember talking with Patrick about that recently, and he was talking about the circumstances of them meeting, and that it was just much less gradual of a question of having children with a partner, but instead it was like, do you wanna have children right now? Do you wanna already have pre-existing children like, this moment if you get together with this person? And then, of course, they did have the other children. But yeah, so you can see how that’s a more specific and important connection between the 5th and the 7th than just your general, generic, like, you have people who have kids with their partner. 

CB: Yeah. For sure. All right, so moving on. We had already talked about Maria Montessori as a great example of like, the ruler of the 7th house in the 5th house and how she had a child with another man. But it was like, the early 20th century or the late 19th century, and it was born out of wedlock, so she ended up having to keep it secret and like, sent him away, and the child didn’t know for the longest time that she was his mother. And then later in life, they reconnected and worked together actually on her school involving children. So that’s a more extreme like, example of that, especially in her chart. But it’s another variation of how this crossover can happen between relationships and children. 

LS: For sure. 

CB: One of the examples we already talked about extensively yesterday was Steven Spielberg, but since we’re on this again, just to reiterate that, it’s like, Spielberg has the 5th house which has like, the ruler of his Ascendant, the Moon, plus Venus and Jupiter there. But then also Mars is the ruler of the 5th house, and it’s in the 7th house of relationships. And he – you and I just watched like, the movie he came out with a few years ago, The Fabelmans, where he like, dramatizes part of his early life story. And one of the things that he dramatized was a apparently like, foundational event in his life where he was like, making home movies with his family that was out camping one summer, and then he later went home and edited it, and he realized his mother was having an affair with a long-time family friend. And then that eventually ended up leading to the end of his parents’ marriage, and that’s kind of part of that signature there in terms of the 5th house and like, romance or relationships, but then ruled by Mars and a sort of severing or separating in terms of marriage of partnership and his early experience of that with his parents. 

LS: Right. And finding out about something that would sever the parents’ relationship via like, his burgeoning artistic pursuits. He also has —

CB: Yeah, we — 

LS: — the collaborators. 

CB: Okay, right, right. Yeah. So that was actually the main thing is like, he’s a director who really, really likes to collaborate – not just with the same actors where he would keep working with the same actors over and over again, like Tom Hanks, for example. Since it’s not just like, the ruler of his 5th house of creativity, but it’s also the ruler of his 10th house of career, but he also famously like, works with the same music composer over and over again, John Williams, who scores pretty much all of Spielberg’s movies. He works with like, the same producers, like Kathleen Kennedy, as well as a number of other people. 

LS: Right. And then the next example we have is pretty similar, right, in terms of those collaborations? 

CB: Yeah. So the other one was the Weeknd, who similarly is not a director but instead is like, a major musician and performer. And he has Cancer rising, Scorpio 5th house, and it’s ruled by Mars, which is in Capricorn in the 7th, and he also famously has collaborated with a number of other really famous musicians, and that’s one of the ways that he’s really expanded his career in significant ways is through his collaborations with other people. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Another 7th house example I found that was fascinating in a completely different area was Phil Ivey, the poker player. So this is the birth chart of Phil Ivey, who’s like, widely regarded as one of the best poker players today. And he has Scorpio rising and Venus is exalted in the 5th house of games and potentially gambling and chance and things like that. And it’s in a mutual reception with Jupiter, which is in the 7th house of other people and direct one-on-one relationships. I think that’s really fascinating, because I think it kind of speaks to that. It’s like, he’s playing this game against other people, and he’s playing and betting and having these like, one-on-one interactions, but he’s ultimately like, coming out on top and is like, excelling as a result of that. 

LS: Right. Definitely. Yeah. And I was talking about that in some previous section where you do sometimes see opponents in the 7th, but like, it can be like, friendly opponents, you know, like in games – especially with the 5th and 7th connected. 

CB: Right. Absolutely. 

Yeah. So that’s really amazing. And he wasn’t the only example. For some reason, I saw other poker players where there were connections between the 5th and 7th houses. So it seemed to be, in some instances, like a recurring theme. 

LS: Right. For sure. 

CB: So moving on. The next chart example is Christian Dior, who was born with Scorpio rising and the 7th house is Taurus with the Lot of Fortune there. And the ruler of the 7th house is Venus, which is exalted in Pisces in the 5th whole sign house. And one of the things I found really fascinating about this example when I found it the other day was that Dior, you know, created the fashion empire. Like, he was a French fashion designer and the founder of one of the world’s top fashion houses. And his entire business was based on his relationship with his clientele, which is like, the women he dressed. And I think that’s really what’s coming out here is the notion of like, Venus being exalted in the 5th house of creativity and the highest expression of creating works of art in clothing or beautiful clothing that people wear, but then specifically that it’s like, things that other people are wearing. He’s designing women’s clothing for other women to wear rather than for himself per se. 

LS: Well, and if it’s dressing like, individual women, you know, in like, a high couture kind of way, it’s literally clients, which is like, a core 7th house signification. 

CB: Right. Yeah. Exactly. So creating beauty and luxury as a fashion item is one of the things here, and I think that’s another interesting manifestation of Venus being in its exaltation there and sort of being raised up to the highest point possible. 

LS: Definitely. 

CB: And then another thing that may be related is that Dior started training his design assistant, who was Yves Saint Laurent, who then was supposed to succeed him at Dior, and then later ended up I think creating his own fashion house eventually as well so that it’s like, there may be this other one-on-one component as well. And then the final thing that I thought was fascinating was that Christian Dior died while playing a game of cards, and Venus also rules the 8th house. So it’s like, the other delineation as the —

LS: Mercury. Oh, you mean —

CB: I’m sorry? 

LS: — the 12th. You mean the 12th. 

CB: Sorry, yeah, the 12th house. That —

LS: Yeah. 

CB: — Venus isn’t just the ruler of the 7th house, but it’s also the ruler of the 12th house, and to pass away or to die as a result of like, playing – or not, well, during playing a card game. 

LS: Not as a result! 

CB: Not as a result. Well, statistically, like, that’s probably happened, but I don’t have any time charts for anyone that’s died from playing cards. 

LS: Yeah. Your heart rate gets really high in like, a really terrible hand. 

CB: Yeah. For sure. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Well, let’s keep moving. We’ll move onto the 8th house, which is everybody’s favorite house. 

LS: Sounds good. 

CB: Okay. So in the last episode, we had talked about the birth chart of Elon Musk and how he has the ruler of the 5th house in the 8th house. So Elon has Cancer rising, Jupiter’s in the 5th house of children, and it’s ruled by Mars, which is in the 8th house of death and mortality. And there’s like, three interesting things with that. One of them is that his first child I think died in infancy of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. So in that instance, it was a very literal manifestation of like, the loss of a child, the death of a child, with the ruler of the 5th house of children in the 8th house of death and mortality. And that probably had like, a huge impact on him in some way psychologically. 

The other thing we talked about was how he has Jupiter in the 5th house of children, and he has this personal philosophy where he thinks people should have as many children as possible because he’s concerned about like, population decline, and he thinks that the world will be destroyed if the population keeps declining. So he’s made it like, his personal mission to have as many children as possible with multiple different women, and he’s up to like, I think 13 or something like that known children, although there might be some… Because there were some that weren’t known. They were like, accidentally revealed at a later time. And he may have… We actually, I don’t know if we know the total number for sure, if it’s public at this point. But it’s interesting that, again, the symbolism is very literal of like, Jupiter in the 5th house and having lots of children. But the ruler being in the 8th, and he’s like, motivated by fears of the death of humanity or something like that. 

LS: Right. For sure. And then the third way that manifests, of course, we talked about in the other episode is one of his children is transgender, and he talks about her as though she’s died, because that’s how it is for him. He hasn’t accepted her, and so he just talks about her like she’s dead. And it’s interesting with the 2nd and the 3rd. You know, the first instance for him was a literal death of one of his children. But then the second and the third are more like, fears of death or sort of more abstract fears of death. And then just like, the sense that someone’s died even though they physically have not. But you know, he’s basically like, you know, she might as well be dead to him. 

So yeah, it’s interesting how some of these house topics can come up literally and sometimes more metaphorically or abstractly. 

CB: Yeah. And I think that’s important, because we’ve definitely been focusing more on literal manifestations, because I think most of the astrological tradition in the late 20th century and early 21st is more comfortable making psychological delineations. And so that’s one of the things I’ve been trying to do in this series is demonstrate how sometimes the symbolism can work out in very literal ways. But it also is important that sometimes the placements can manifest in a psychological way as well. 

LS: Right. For sure. 

CB: Yeah. So let’s see. There are – I had two other charts of two people I know who lost, like Elon, lost their first child in infancy due to Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. And both of them had the ruler of the 5th house of children in the 8th house of death, so that there was sort of indications in both parents’ charts, which was another like, literal example of that. 

LS: That’s really striking, because so often, you know, you have two different parents and they have different charts, and sometimes one of them more than the other of the charts will speak to like, the circumstances of whatever that’s shared. 

CB: Yeah. I mean, it can for sure be more clear, or that there would be something going on there that’s tricky or problematic, unless there’s major mitigations going on. Because in some instances —

LS: Yeah. 

CB: — you’ll see the chart have significant mitigations that offset that so that the worst case scenario doesn’t happen. 

LS: For sure. 

CB: Yeah. But for sure sometimes that can happen, and it can have a major impact in the life, and it’s important to be able to talk about that sometimes and be able to identify what that looks like in a chart, because sometimes that, you know, after it’s happened, people look for answers. So I feel like it’s — 

LS: Right. 

CB: — less of a predictive thing and more of just an understanding what a person’s chart indicates type thing that can sometimes be helpful and healing. 

LS: Yeah, absolutely. It can be very like, validating. And you know, if you’re someone who does have the ruler of the 5th in the 8th, it does not always mean like, a literal death of a child. Like, sometimes it can be more – like you said – mitigated, but also can point to other 8th house topics, even especially if the condition is better. Like, you know, your child is like, a banker or something. So I just wanna put that out there since we do have a number of ones where, you know, there was like, a literal child’s death that that’s not the way that that combination can work out. 

CB: Yeah. Absolutely. 

All right. So let’s see. The next example is one that I used I think in the 4th house episode, and it was the birth chart of Louie Pasteur. And he was born with Libra rising, and Aquarius is on the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler of the 5th house is Saturn, which is in Taurus in the 8th house. And he lost a child early on in life, and this is part of what motivated him to start researching and doing some of his medical research, which eventually led to some really important advancements in terms of medicine. 

LS: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that’s really interesting that he has the ruler of the 5th and the ruler of the 6th copresent in the 8th. I can see that motivation going from the 5th to the 6th, especially with Jupiter being the better placement of the two. 

CB: Yeah. Absolutely. So he’s a famous chemist and pharmacist and microbiologist, and through some of this loss, it pushed him to really develop some of his theories better, and he’s one of the fathers of like, the germ theory of disease. And this led to the ability to develop different ways to avoid people from getting sick and from dying from certain things unnecessarily, and it sort of changed things. So this is more of a constructive example of how sometimes like, let’s say, one of the worst tragedies, like the loss of a children, can sometimes push people to try to improve the lives of other people around them. 

LS: Definitely. 

CB: Let’s see. So the next one was a chart that I found the other day from a native known as Janet Chance from the UK who was born in the mid-19th century and had Sagittarius rising and Aries on the 5th whole sign house. And the 8th house is Cancer with Saturn there, and the ruler of the 8th house is the Moon, which is in Aries in the 5th whole sign house, right? 

LS: Yeah. And she was a prominent British feminist, writer, and social reformer, who dedicated her life to advocating for women’s reproductive rights and sexual freedom. And she was a key figure in the movements for sex education, birth control, and most notably abortion law reform. She actually cofounded in 1936 the Abortion Law Reform Association, which was instrumental in campaigning for the legalization of abortion in the UK, a cause that she championed until her own death. And that actual work, while it wasn’t legalized during her lifetime, it laid the groundwork for the eventual passage of the Abortion Act of 1967 in the UK. And the ruler of the 8th in the 5th here I think has to do with probably a couple things. One, you know, literally like, the termination of a pregnancy is part of what’s going on here, and that she cared about that. But also, you know, anyone who’s championing reproductive rights, part of the reason is because pregnancy can be life-threatening. And so, you know, by championing reproductive rights and safe things around that, and also safe abortions, it’s really about like, preventing death via pregnancy. 

CB: Right. Yeah. And especially in that period. Like, the much higher number of women that would die in childbirth. 

LS: Yeah. For sure. Although, you know, it still happens, and especially unfortunately is still in the news today here, because of, you know, the restrictions of reproductive rights lately mean that more women are actually dying in pregnancy. So there is a very clear connection between these two houses and why she had that connection in her chart and the work she did. 

CB: Yeah. Absolutely. 

Okay, so moving onto some other 8th house topics. One of the ones I noticed that came up was the birth chart of Queen Elizabeth II where she was born with Capricorn rising and the 8th house is Leo with the Moon and Neptune there, and it’s ruled by the Sun, which is in Taurus in the 5th house of children. And one of the things I thought was really fascinating was that when Queen Elizabeth died a few years ago, her son, Charles, immediately became king. And what was fascinating about that is like, Charles was really old by that point. And for like, a long time, at least a decade or two, people were kind of waiting because it was expected that she was towards the end of her life, and she would pass away at some point and hand over the reign to Charles. But then like, she turned out to be like, the longest reigning British monarch in history or like, one of the longest reigning monarchs in the world. And this reminded me that sometimes in Indian astrology, they talk about the 8th house not just in terms of death but also in terms of longevity. And this kind of made me think of that again in this context as well as just like, just think about that. That there’s a signature here for a tie-in between the topic of death and the topic of children. Or let’s say 8th house is also inheritance and children, and just that there was so much speculation and almost like, pressure for a long time of wondering when Charles would take over or if Charles would take over, because he started becoming like, an old man himself at a certain point. So there almost could have been a scenario where he could have ended up like, passing away before she did. 

LS: Right. For sure. Yeah, that’s a really good example. And it’s, you know, not the main point of this example, but it’s funny that she has Capricorn rising, Saturn so closely conjunct the Midheaven, and it’s just that notion of just like, hanging on and hanging on forever, you know? Which Saturn kind of can do things for the long haul and just how people were like, huh, when is he gonna become king? 

CB: Right. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. All right, so moving onto the next example. The next example I found was the birth chart of David Carradine, because one of the questions I was having when I was like, thinking about what symbolically could be a connection between the 8th house of death and the 5th house of not just children, but also sex and sexuality, was like, I was trying to look for some time charts of like, anybody who died during sex, which I have to imagine has happened like, a lot. But you’d be surprised at how few timed birth charts I was able to find, and there weren’t as many… Sometimes there was like, a lot of ambiguity about like, whether a person had died from that, or if it would be listed as other causes or something like that. 

So one of the charts that I did find that was a really memorable one – it’s like, a noon chart, so you don’t wanna trust that. But noon is actually listed as the birth time, and that does happen. So David Carradine was like, a famous actor, but then he like, died tragically in this freak incident that happened like, what was it, a decade or two ago where the cause of death was reportedly said to be autoerotic asphyxiation where he, you know, some people, they like to choke themselves or to be out of breath in connection with like, having an orgasm. And he must have been trying to do that, but then accidentally passed out – passed away – or passed out and died. 

So he was born with Pisces rising, and Cancer is the 5th whole sign house with Pluto, the only planet in that sign, and then the ruler of the 5th house of sex and sexuality is the Moon, which is in Libra in the 8th house of death and mortality conjunct Mars. So yeah, it’s like, just a very literal instance – at least in this instance – of like, the end of his life coming about in connection with sex and sexuality in this instance. 

LS: And it’s really further reinforced by the Moon, you know, after hitting two more planets. It is applying by square to that Pluto in the 5th house, and the Moon is ruling Pluto while applying to Pluto in the 5th house from the 8th. So I think it’s just like, strengthening that connection further. 

CB: Okay. Yeah. Definitely. So that’s a tough one, but that was one of the ones I found in terms of just ways that, again, sometimes the symbolism can be very, very literal. 

LS: Yeah. And we should note that this is also a day chart, so the Moon being copresent with Mars in the 8th is like, notable compared to like, otherwise. 

CB: Yeah. Just because then Mars is the most difficult planet. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: All right. So moving on, my next example that I found in the databases when I was looking for connections between the 5th and the 8th, this is the birth chart of Omar Mateen who is the Pulse nightclub shooter who several years ago went to a gay club in Florida and shot and killed a lot of people and who might have been motivated as a result of, you know, prejudices against homosexuality and things like that. Although there’s various like, speculations about what his motivation is, and there’s actually a lot of murkiness surrounding it. But it ended up becoming the largest incident of something like this in the US history up to that point. And he was born with Cancer rising and a stellium of four planets in Scorpio in the 5th house, which is Venus – which is retrograde – conjunct Pluto, and then Mercury, which is retrograde, and then the Sun, all in Scorpio, and they’re all ruled by this Mars which is in Aquarius in the 8th house. 

LS: Right. Yeah. And just to be clear, it was the deadliest known incident of violence against queer people in the US history. It says he killed 49 people and wounded 53 others just in that one mass shooting. 

CB: Right. So which is just insane, and like, gross and tragic. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: But yeah. In this instance, it was like, once again, that’s like, what this guy will forever be known for is like, the terrible person that killed a bunch of people at a gay club in Florida and then has this weird signature in his birth chart of a bunch of planets in the 5th ruled by a planet in the 8th. 

LS: Right. 

CB: All right. So let’s see, moving onto other ones that are less depressing that are the 8th house. I was looking for an uplifting one, especially one connected with other things that actually come up in the 8th house more commonly, because there are good significations that come up in the 8th house. And one of them is that the 8th house can have to do with other people’s money. You know, the 2nd house is like, your money, and the 8th house is sometimes other people’s money. And one of the charts that I found is for a person named Reed Erickson. And the chart has Scorpio rising, Pisces is on the 5th whole sign house, and it contains the IC. And then the ruler is Jupiter, which is in Gemini in the 8th whole sign house in a day chart. 

So one of the things about Reed Erickson is that… There’s a bunch of things about Reed Erickson. One of them is that Reed was a trans man and philanthropist who became one of the most significant financial benefactors of the LGBTQ movement in the 20th century from a very early point in time. So sort of it’s tied up in a bunch of different things, but in 1964, he launched the Erickson educational foundation, which a nonprofit philanthropic organization funded and controlled entirely by Erickson, and through that organization, Erickson contributed millions of dollars to the early development of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer movements between 1964 and 1984. And it ended up influencing like, a surprising amount of different things related to the LGBTQ movement where they were using their immense wealth and channeling it through that foundation in order to provide foundational funding that helped to legitimatize and advance the study of transgender identities, of early gay and lesbian rights organizations and things like that. 

LS: Yeah. And one of the things also in particular that was funded is he funded speaker bureaus that sent queer people to universities and community groups to share their life stories to help to like, demystify queer identities through personal contact for groups or communities that might not have had any personal connection before to anyone who was queer or at least any knowing connection to anyone who was openly queer and therefore trying to fund these like, sort of outreach programs to demystify this kind of sexuality. 

CB: Right. Yeah. So that’s really important. And he was born in 1917 and was like, doing this work in the 1960s and ‘70s and ‘80s. So just in terms of like, the timeline of things, that’s pretty early on. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: One of the things I found interesting is that with the IC there in the 5th whole sign house, he was actually born into a wealthy Philadelphia family and ended up inheriting a significant fortune derived from his father’s lead smelting business. So it’s like, interesting that with the IC there in the 5th house, that it was like, channeling some of that inherited wealth from the family and then distributing it to other people through the 8th house. 

LS: Yeah. For sure. Yeah, it’s interesting that he’s got the IC ruler in the 8th like that, that’s Jupiter, and then the ruler of the 4th is that Saturn in the 10th very closely sextile that Jupiter. So it’s like — 

CB: Right. 

LS: — part of his life’s work was, you know, tied into the family fortune. 

CB: Yeah. Exactly. And it’s like, Jupiter in a day chart and then also this is another one besides the previous chart we looked at of one of the cofounders of Amazon just where that idea of the 5th house and philanthropy comes up. And it’s partially coming up here in a concrete way through the 8th house, which is like, other people’s money. But it’s also partially a 5th house thing here, and that idea of like, good-doing. 

LS: Like, generosity? 

CB: Yeah. Exactly. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: All right. So that was one I found. And then I only have one more chart in this section for the 8th house, which was Doyle Brunson. 

LS: So Doyle Brunson is the ruler of the 8th house in the 5th, so he’s got Sagittarius rising. The 5th house is Aries with the Moon and Uranus in Aries. And then Cancer is the 8th house and the Moon is ruling the 8th and placed in the 5th. And he’s a poker player, and he basically won money from playing other people. So it’s essentially like, other people’s money are coming to him through a professional game. So he played professionally for over 60 years; he was a two-time World Series of Poker Main Event champion, a Poker Hall of Fame inductee, and the author of several books on power. And most notably for our example here, he was the first player to win one million dollars in poker tournaments. So you can clearly see the connection of the topic of other people’s money and games in his instance. 

CB: Yeah. So I found that when I was – because I was trying to do research when I was trying to research the 5th house things of people associating with like, games of chance and speculation and gambling and things like that. And this was one of the charts that came up that did show some sort of interesting connection with the 5th house. Although it’s like, tricky, because it’s like, the 5th house is clearly coming up in terms of games and potentially gambling, but in this instance, it’s like, channeling other people’s money from the 8th house into the 5th house of games and in this instance gambling. 

LS: Right.

CB: Yeah. So that is the last one to sort of round that out a little bit where sometimes it’s like, financial things are coming up when it comes to the 8th house, and it’s not always death or mortality or longevity or some of those other things. But oftentimes in the 8th house, you’ll see a lot of financial things happening. 

LS: Right. Yeah. For sure. Other people’s money, shared resources, et cetera. 

CB: Yeah. For sure. 

All right, so now we’re gonna transition into talking about the 9th house and what happens when the 9th house is interacting with the ruler of the 5th house in a birth chart. 

So the first chart I wanted to share is the birth chart of Gwen Stefani that I already talked about in a previous episode I think yesterday in part two. And it’s not a very involved example, but basically, she has the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th house of children adn the ruler of the 5th house of children is in the 9th house of foreign travel and foreign places. And she had three children with Gavin Rossdale, who was the lead singer of the band Bush, and she was the lead singer of No Doubt. And because Gavin Rossdale’s from the UK, her three children have dual US-UK citizenship. So that’s — 

LS: Nice. 

CB: — just like, a very basic way that things can work out, that somehow the topic of children is partially operating in a 9th house context for her, and that’s how it worked out in her life. 

LS: Good. 

CB: All right. And did you wanna talk about that example? 

LS: Yeah. So the next one is gonna be an anonymous example. You have the chart for it, yeah? Okay. Yeah, so the next chart we talked about abstractly I think previously, but it was someone who had the ruler of the 5th house of children in the 9th house of education, foreign places, religion and belief systems. And this person had three children, and as they grew up, one of them who had had a long-standing interest in other cultures and other countries eventually moved across the world to a very different country and culture and actually renounced their US citizenship eventually. And then the second child grew up not in a super religious family, but became very much more religious as an adult, to the extent that that was like, a primary motivating factor in their life decisions and where they lived and things like that. And then the third one, the third child became a teacher. And while higher education is more specifically associated with the 9th house, education more broadly can cross the 3rd and 9th houses. And so you see in that particular example, it’s another really simple one, but literally the ruler of the 5th house of children in the 9th house, each of three of the person’s children basically took up one of the 9th house major themes and like, it’s a major part of each of their lives. 

CB: Yeah. That’s really good. It shows you the range of how things can manifest in different ways in a person’s life using different significations of that house. 

LS: Exactly. 

CB: All right. So moving on. The next example of a 9th house one that I have is a famous YouTuber named Natalie Wynn who runs the YouTube channel Contrapoints. And I think it’s really interesting, because it’s about like, philosophy and about ethics and politics and things like that. But they have Scorpio rising and Cancer is on the 9th whole sign house, which is usually religion and philosophy and politics. And the ruler is in the 5th house in Pisces along with the North Node and with the Lot of Fortune. And even though it’s like, a philosophy and politics channel, they always do a very elaborate presentation and theatrical style and presentation of outlining these sort of like, video essays of whatever their topic is. And you can look like Contrapoints just to see what I’m talking about and to see the like, visual flair and theatrical style of it. But it was interesting to me that there was this strong connection between the 9th house of philosophy and the 5th house of creativity. 

LS: Definitely. Yeah, that’s a great one. 

CB: Yeah. All right. Moving on. Our next one is Judith Butler, and this is one you’ve looked into, right? 

LS: So Judith Butler’s an American feminist, philosopher, and gender studies scholar whose work has influenced political philosophy, ethics, and the fields of third-wave feminism, queer theory, and literary theory. And so her chart – or their chart – they go by both she and they – Aries rising with the 5th house being Leo. The Moon and Jupiter and Pluto are in the 5th house. And the 9th house is Sagittarius, and the ruler of the 9th then is Jupiter in the 5th house in Leo. And the thing that I love about this example is one of the notable theories that Judith Butler’s known for is that of gender performativity. So essentially that one’s gender identity is not like, a fixed and given thing, but it’s a performance that you enact through behaviors, clothing, actions, et cetera. And I thought what a perfect and literal, you know, connection between the 9th house of academic work and also philosophy and belief systems too – theorizing – put not only in the 5th house, but Jupiter in the 5th house in the sign of Leo. Like, arguably its most performative placement, right? It’s like, Leo and the 5th house. And just to take it one step further, with Aries rising, the Ascendant ruler is Mars in the 9th house in Sagittarius. And then that is ruled by that Jupiter. And so it really neatly connects the topics of personal identity, philosophy and theories, and performance. And it just is like, a such an elegant example. And I really love, you know, as with the Theodor Adorno example earlier, I really love just like, seeing people’s theorizing and how it matches up perfectly with their own charts. 

CB: Yeah. For sure. Definitely. Great example. 

LS: There’s just one more thing about that. So amusingly, I suddenly wondered with those 5th house placements had Judith Butler ever acted in a show? Any acting experience? So amusingly, in February 2020, she performed in an experimental stage show called Fragments, Lists, and Lacuna in which they played a character based on their own academic profession, a comparative literature professor. This is like, the one, major acting thing they did was like, as a 9th house figure. 

CB: Nice. Very good. 

LS: Yep. 

CB: So speaking of that, like, here’s the chart of Anita Bryant who was born with Leo rising and the Sun, the ruler of the Ascendant, in the 9th house of religion and philosophy. And it’s copresent with Jupiter, which is the ruler of the 5th house of sex and sexuality which is in the 9th house in Aries along with the South Node. And Anita Bryant was famous for a lot of activism, basically, against gay people in the 19 – she was like, an anti-gay crusader in the, what, like, 1960s and 1970s? 

LS: ‘70s. And particularly in the 1970s, most famously, she was in Florida; she was connected with helping to pass and publicize a law prohibiting – like, striking down protections against gay people in the workplace. And she was the leader of a group called Save Our Children. So it was… Sorry, I need a moment. 

CB: Yeah. She was involved in that, and there was a law – because we had talked about this earlier this year in the episode about Venus retrograde in Aries because a lot of it started with her in 1977, which was one of the Venus retrogrades in Aries which is so important as turning points in queer history. And that sometimes there’s these major setbacks or periods of like, fierce opposition and attempts basically to like, discriminate against or revoke the rights of gay and queer people like the Venus retrograde we were experiencing that happened in Aries earlier this year, or that was a repetition of 1977 when she was starting some of her campaigns to do some of that. 

LS: Right. For sure. Yeah. So and interestingly, because she’s got a day chart, it’s like, the ruler of the 5th in the 9th is like, she’s both crusading against protections for queer people legally – which is a 9th house topic – and based on her belief systems. But it’s a day chart, so that in turn is ruled by Mars in the 10th. And apparently she got a lot of public backlash for it. So even though she helped win – you know, get this temporary win – against protections for queer people, her professional life took a hit. 

CB: Right. Yeah. And some of it was being done. So on the one hand, we’re talking about like, the ruler of the 5th house of sex and sexuality in the 9th house of religion, and she’s basically discriminating against gay people and queer people due to her religious beliefs, and it’s kind of simple as a delineation like that. There’s other elements as well where she was using children as a pretext for it and trying to argue that gay people were preying on children or something dumb like that. So you can kind of see multiple ways in which the symbolism is working out. But the take-home lesson is just that sometimes when there’s a connection between the 5th and the 9th, it can connect the person’s religion or philosophy with topics of sex and sexuality or topics of children for some reason in the life. 

LS: Right. Yeah. And we’ll see another one of those in a few charts. 

CB: Yeah. All right. So moving on. I don’t wanna focus on this too much, but I did find a really interesting one with Siskel and Ebert, the two media critics who famously for years would rate movies and came up with like, a thumbs-up or thumbs-down system – a two thumbs up or two thumbs down system. Both of them have the ruler of the 5th in the 9th, and having it connected with Saturn or something closely parallel that. So this is the chart of Roger Ebert with Libra rising, Aquarius on the 5th house, and Saturn in the 9th house. And I thought that was really interesting that connection, just because with Saturn, there’s – the 5th house is like, creativity and Saturn can be very critical of things. And they were almost like, approaching it in this quasi-academic context in addition to writing newspaper articles and hosting a show about it. But they became like, the authorities or like, the figures that people would go to for their sort of like, wisdom on whether or not you should go see a movie because of their critical analysis of it, which is very much a 9th house type thing. And I was just fascinated how that symbolism ended up working out for both of them. 

LS: Yeah, that’s a really unique example. 

CB: So with Siskel, we’ll look at his chart again later, but it’s like, Mars-Saturn conjunction in the 5th and it’s ruled by the Moon, which is in Scorpio in the 9th. And I thought that Saturn and Mars connection was really interesting just because critics can be sometimes tearing apart – you think about the process – they’re like, tearing apart somebody else’s artistic creation, and like, judging it or criticizing it. And you have – at least in his instance – the two malefics there. 

LS: Right, yeah. That’s a really interesting like, metaphorical way that’s playing out. 

CB: Right. Let’s move on. So the next one is Robert Mapplethorpe.

LS: Yeah. So he had Scorpio rising with Jupiter-Sun-Mars in Scorpio in the first, and then Cancer was the 9th house – the Lot of Fortune’s there – it’s ruled by the Moon, which is in Pisces in the 5th house. So it’s the ruler of the 9th in the 5th. He was an American photographer best known for his black and white photographs, often of nudes. And his most controversial works documented and examined the gay male BDSM subculture of New York City in the late 1960s and early 1970s. And in 1990, the Contemporary Arts Center in Cincinnati and its director were legally charged with obscenity for a retrospective exhibit of his work, for putting his work up. And it was eventually ruled not guilty by a jury, but at the time, at least for a little while, it sparked a national debate over the constitutional limits of free speech and the definition of obscenity. So it was really interesting and clear connection in his case, at least at one point in time, connecting legal issues related to the arts with the ruler of the 9th house of legal system in the 5th house of creativity. 

CB: Nice. Yeah. That’s a good one. With laws in the 9th house, we’ll often see – or the government. 

All right. So moving on to the next example. 

LS: Yeah. So the next one’s gonna be Andrea Dworkin. And she was – got her chart – Aquarius rising. The 9th house is Libra with the Sun, Neptune, Mercury, and the Moon there in Libra in the 9th. And Mercury is ruling the 5th house – Gemini – placed in the 9th house in that stellium. And she was kind of a famous anti-pornography feminist. Like, she was one of a bunch of famous feminist figures at the same time, but she was like, known as the anti-porn one. And she was very hardcore about it. And we were looking at this example. She’s also got the Ascendant ruler, Saturn, in Leo in the 7th conjunct Pluto. And it seemed like her views about pornography were very much based on like, it’s all about domination and power and control and really unhealthy dynamics, and I think that was coming from the Saturn-Pluto ruling her Ascendant in the 7th house and some, you know, personal experiences in relationship as well. But this one, we were talking about this one when we were kind of like, brainstorming different chart possibilities. And this one seemed to be like, her belief system was very strongly linked to the topic of sex and sexuality. And that’s why she was known for that. 

CB: Right. I mean, it provides a similar counterpoint with like, the Anita Bryant chart where her negative views on sex and sexuality and homosexuality were being fueled by religious beliefs. And here we have again somebody that has a connection with the 5th house of sex and sexuality and their philosophy beliefs are strongly informing them or making them feel very strongly about certain things related to that. 

LS: And I meant to note that the Saturn-Pluto’s not just in the 7th, but it’s in an overcoming square to Venus as a general significator of like, love and relationships and desire. So there’s just something that is bound to feel very difficult for those person, but it’s also that this person has a strong belief around sex and sexuality that maybe the next person just wouldn’t feel as strongly about one way or the other. 

CB: Right. Yeah. All right. So moving forward. The next chart example is Etienne-Emile Baulieu, and they were known as a French biochemist and endocrinologist who was known for working in the field of steroid hormones and reproduction and aging. And he’s been nicknamed the father of the abortion pill, mainly as a result of his abortion-inducing drug, RU-486. So basically he was one of the researchers that helped to come up with one of the primary abortion pills that was used as opposed to – as a nonsurgical option as opposed to like, a surgical option, which is what was more available up to that point. So with his chart, he has Scorpio rising, and Cancer is the 9th house where we find Pluto and the North Node. And the ruler of the 9th house is the Moon, which is placed in the 5th house in Pisces with Uranus and the IC. And so the primary thing I just picked up on this one is just there’s like, this education and this research component with the 9th house, and it’s being directed towards something in the 5th house. In this instance, it ended up affecting pregnancy and other things related to that. And he became an advocate for that pill even when the company withdrew the product and it ended up propelling him into the limelight of the entire abortion debate in general. 

LS: Yeah. That’s a good one. 

CB: Yeah. All right. So moving on. The next one I found when I was researching 5th and 9th house examples was a journalist named Joseph Alsop who was like, a famous American journalist. And this chart has Virgo rising and Capricorn on the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler of the 5th house is Saturn, which is in Taurus in the 9th house in a night chart. And since this is a night chart, Saturn is the most challenging planet. So it’s creating some sort of connection between like, the 5th house of sex and sexuality and the 9th house of foreign places. And what happened is that Alsop was homosexual in like, the 1950s and kept it this really closely guarded secret all of his life. But then in 1957, the Russian KGB, the secret service essentially of Russia, photographed him in a hotel room in Moscow having sex with another man who was a Soviet agent. And then the Soviets basically attempted to blackmail him, going so far as in the 1970s, they sent photos of him – embarrassing photos – to several prominent American journalists. 

So Alsop struggled with this and considered making his homosexuality public in order to end like, these years of harassment but ultimately didn’t end up going through and doing that. And I just thought that was really fascinating that yeah, there was this connection where the ruler of the 5th house of sex and sexuality is in the 9th house of foreign places, and one of the great hardships was literally being blackmailed over one’s sexuality by a foreign country. 

LS: Yeah. That’s fascinating. Yeah. And terrible, of course. But sometimes you see Saturn in the 9th for different people, and it’s like, for some reason, some of the most challenging circumstances they have are either when they travel to a foreign country or something involving people at a great distance in another country. But here it’s showing like, the topic of why that was the case here. 

CB: Yeah. For sure. Okay, so moving on. We mentioned Lucille Ball yesterday and had a discussion about her with the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th and I Love Lucy and stuff. But she also had the ruler of the 5th house of like, love and romance in the 9th house of foreign places. And one of the things I don’t think we mentioned a connection with her major hit TV show was also her connection and her romance with Desi Arnaz who was famous as like, a Cuban – who was Cuban and had a heavy Cuban accent, and that played like, a major role as part of not just their interactions but also that television show. 

LS: Yeah. That’s a great additional example here of the 5th in the 9th. And then also as we talked about previously, the ruler of the 5th in the 9th here played out when Lucille Ball was younger and her mother tried to get her away from a romance she didn’t approve of by sending her off to school for performance. And so the ruler of the 5th in the 9th is like, with the malefics in the 5th, is like, you know, going away to school because of that. 

CB: Yeah. Because she was like, dating a much older guy that was like, up to no good or was a local ruffian, and the mother wanted to get Lucille away from him. So she appealed to Lucille’s desire to be in show business and sent her off to school for that basically. 

LS: Exactly. 

CB: Yeah. So a similar case is Robin Williams, who was born with Scorpio rising and Pisces. The ruler of the Ascendant is Mars, which is in Cancer in the 9th whole sign house along with Uranus and the Sun. And the ruler of the 9th house of education is in Pisces in the 5th house of creativity and, you know, expression and things like that. And one of the things I was reading about in his biography is that he initially was like, going to school for something else. After high school, he enrolled in Claremont Men’s College and started studying political science. But then he ended up actually dropping out to pursue acting and then got a scholarship to go to the Julliard School, which is a private performing arts conservatory in New York City. And even though he didn’t end up, like, finishing his schooling there, it seemed like this education and going there to start studying performance was a really important turning point for him in his life, and he surprised people because he didn’t just do comedy, but he also started demonstrating his dramatic acting abilities as well. 

LS: That’s great. And that’s so fascinating that he was first going for politics, because that’s also a 9th house thing. 

CB: Right. Yeah. Totally. 

And then finally, I found this other quote that – I think this was from Wikipedia – but it said, “During a television interview on Inside the Actors Studio in 2001, Williams credited his mother as an important early influence on his humor, and he tried to make her laugh to gain attention.” So I thought that was really interesting with like, the Moon in the 5th house and the Moon sometimes just literally representing the mother. And it’s in the 5th house, which we associate with like, laughter and comedy, and he was trying to make his mother laugh in order to get her attention. 

LS: That’s interesting. That’s an interesting parallel, too, with Steven Spielberg with the Moon in the 5th and that his mom – in a different way, but – his mom was like, a creative person, an artistic person. 

CB: Yeah, exactly. That sometimes when there’s a specific planet, especially like a luminary, in the 5th house, it will represent the person’s parent and something about that specific parent playing a pivotal role in informing what they end up doing with their life based on the house placement and something very specific like that. 

LS: Right. 

CB: All right. So I believe that’s the end of the 9th house. 

LS: It is. 

CB: Okay. So let’s transition into talking about the 10th house and what happens when it’s connected with the 5th house in astrology. And this house is tricky, because we had like, a lot of charts, and we had to cut a bunch of them out. But when you’re talking about the ruler of the 10th house of career and connecting with the 5th house, you end up finding a lot of people that, as part of their career or their public reputation, end up being involved in either work with children or the arts and creativity and other 5th house topics like that. So it’s almost could be as long as the list of like, the Ascendant ruler in the 5th house, because like the Ascendant ruler, sometimes when the ruler of the 10th is in the 5th, it can direct something about the person’s overall career and life direction towards 5th house topics. 

LS: Right. Like, these are the people who are known for having creative careers. So you find a lot of those. 

CB: Yeah, exactly. 

So my first example of that is Beverly Cleary, who’s a famous children’s book author. So Beverly Cleary was born with Libra rising and Aquarius on the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler is Saturn, which is placed in Cancer in the 10th whole sign house. And she was a famous – one of the most famous – children’s book authors. 

LS: Yeah. So she was one of America’s most successful authors, too. 91 million copies of her books have been sold worldwide since her first book was published in 1950. And some of her best-known characters are – some of the books are named for them, too – Ramona Quimby, Beezus Quimby, Henry Huggins and his dog Ribsy, and Ralph S. Mouse. So yeah, and she was historically known for attention to the daily minutiae – the daily details of childhood – specifically the experience of children growing up in middle class families. And so yeah, it wasn’t just that her creative output is there, of course, with the 5th house ruler in the 10th. But it was also about childhood, and it was books for children and about childhood. 

CB: Yeah. One of the things I thought was funny is that Saturn is also ruling the 4th house of home and living situation, and her Wikipedia biography says that “the majority of her books are set in the Grand Park neighborhood of northeast Portland, Oregon, where she was raised.” So it’s like, she’s incorporating this element into a lot of children’s books of where she’s from and where her origins are, her living situation. So it’s like, the ruler of the 4th house of home and living situation, the 5th house of children in the 10th house of career. 

LS: Absolutely. Yeah. And interestingly, she started out before that as a children’s librarian. So still like, connecting career and children and books. 

CB: Nice. So moving onto the next one. This one I had already mentioned, but just to reiterate, this is the chart of Billie Jean King who has the ruler of the 5th house of games and sports in the 10th house of career, and she was the number one tennis player in the world at one point in time.

All right. Other example – I don’t know if we mentioned her, but we mentioned Steven Spielberg recently and how he has like, the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th, and he often featured different child actors in his movies. And this was like, probably the most prominent example which is this is the birth chart of Drew Barrymore who was one of the child actors featured in Steven Spielberg’s movie E.T. And how she became super famous very early in life as a child actor as a result of that and other roles. And she was born with Gemini rising, and Libra on the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler is Venus, which is exalted in Pisces conjunct Jupiter in the 10th whole sign house in a day chart. 

LS: Yeah. I love that double signification bringing to the 10th house both just the creative work in general as well as her being known specifically as a child actor for a while. 

CB: Yeah. Absolutely. So obviously she has gone on to do a number of other things as an actress, a producer, a director, and especially more recently like, a talk show host. But it’s just interesting that she first rose to prominence basically at the age of 11 for her role in that Steven Spielberg film E.T. And then actually, Spielberg became her godfather as a result of that I think. 

LS: She was 11? 

CB: Yeah. 

LS: Did you already say the timing? Because —

CB: No.

LS: — I’m noticing the timing of that. That’s a 12th house profection year which activates that Venus also ruling the 5th. And so sometimes, yeah, two houses ruled by the same planet, you know, even if it’s a 12th house profection, it’s activating the 5th house and the 10th. 

CB: Right. Yeah. 

All right. So moving on. The next one I found is the famous painter Henri Matisse was born with Leo rising, Sagittarius is the 5th house, and the ruler is Jupiter, which is up in Taurus in the 10th whole sign house conjunct the Midheaven and Pluto. And Henri Matisse became one of the most famous painters of the 20th century. 

LS: Yeah. That’s really good. Yeah, especially yeah. It’s interesting, though, the Moon-Saturn. I think you noted something about later in life? 

CB: Yeah, just that I was reading some of the biography, and it said when he was in ill health in his final years, it actually prevented him from painting. So there was like, a blockage of doing his favorite thing. So he ended up switching to and created a whole important body of work in the medium of cut paper collages, and that became like, this whole other era in terms of his creative output of just still wanting to create despite the inability to do, you know, one of his more primary things. 

LS: Right. Yeah. That’s interesting. Yeah, he was a really well-known painter, although he did other print-making and sculpting. Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. All right, moving on. The next one is Lin-Manuel Miranda, right? 

LS: Yeah. So I think a lot of people know who he is at this point, but if not, he’s an American songwriter, actor, singer, and filmmaker. He most famously created the popular Broadway musicals Hamilton and In the Heights, and then also did soundtracks for the animated films Moana, Vivo, and Encanto. And he’s just won like, a slew of awards – basically all the awards you can get for these types of things, and he’s won 14 awards so far. And yeah, he’s just known as super successful with regard to doing these musicals. So ruler of the 5th, which is Leo – the Sun – in Capricorn in the 10th house along with the Moon and Mercury in Capricorn. 

CB: Yeah. I like that because it’s like, in an era in which plays are not as big as they were back in like, the 1800s or something like that before film and before movies, it was like, this huge hit play and musical – Hamilton – that came out in 2015. And one of the things that’s interesting about that that I noticed later in retrospect that Venus went retrograde that summer in Leo. So the summer that it was hitting its height and it was the talk of the town, Venus was actually going retrograde in his 5th whole sign house. 

LS: I love that. 

CB: Yeah. So I thought that was cool, and that was also the summer actually of not just Venus retrograde, but also Venus retrograde conjoining Jupiter in his 5th house. So pretty — 

LS: That’s right. 

CB: — pretty cool timing. 

LS: Yeah.

CB: So moving on. Our next example that I found is Debbie Reynolds. And Debbie Reynolds had Libra rising, and Cancer is the 10th house and it’s ruled by the Moon, which is in Aquarius in the 5th house copresent with Saturn. And Debbie Reynolds was a famous Hollywood actress, and then interestingly, ended up having a child who would go on to become a famous Hollywood actress as well —

LS: Carrie Fisher. 

CB: — later on in life, which was Carrie Fisher who famously played Princess Leia in Star Wars and became like, mega well known for that as well as later for other roles and doing scriptwriting and other things like that. So it was just an interesting instance of somebody who was a very prominent actress and singer whose career spanned almost 70 years in both television and film but then would go on to then have a child who also like, followed in the same profession. 

LS: Yeah. I just love these charts where it’s expressing the combination of houses is expressing more than one notable thing. 

CB: Right. Yeah. And that’s what’s important is like, sometimes at one part of your life, it could be expressing one version of that placement and then at another part in your life it could express a completely different version of that placement.

LS: Absolutely. 

CB: Yeah. All right. So moving on. Another one I found when I was looking for examples was Leonardo DiCaprio who was born with Libra rising, Aquarius is the 5th house, and the ruler is Saturn, which is placed in Cancer in the 10th house. And Leonardo DiCaprio was famously a child actor early on, and then has grown up and become, you know, one of the leading actors of his generation. 

LS: Right. 

CB: So very prominent example of an actor with the ruler of the 5th in the 10th. One of the things I was thinking of, though, when I was researching this is I always struggled for a long time – because I’ve used his chart as an example since like, the early 2010s – and there was this period for a while where it was like, he had tried to – and he’d been a standout actor for years, but he hadn’t won an Oscar. And he kept – it kept just like, not happening. And there was this period of time in his career where it was like, he hadn’t won an Oscar and it seemed like he was never going to or that he was having bad luck of just being against people that were edging him out every single year. And that was kind of the Saturn in the 10th house in a night chart placement that otherwise didn’t make sense, because he was very successful in terms of his career. But I could see that it was mitigated by that very close degree-based trine with Venus at 19 Scorpio trining Saturn at 18 degrees of Cancer. But then it was like, he won an Oscar finally for – I think it was for the movie The Revenant. And then that issue sort of disappeared. But one I was thinking about recently is the only sort of blemish on his career at this point is he’s become kind of notorious for dating younger women who are under the age of like, 26 or something like that. And so it’s almost become like a running joke at this point that he gets a new girlfriend once they hit a certain age or something like that. And I don’t know all the details obviously behind that, but it was striking to me that with the ruler of the 5th house in the 10th house in a night chart that that could be part of that symbolism in terms of some issues in terms of his reputation just in terms of his love life or his dating life and things like that. 

LS: Yeah. I bet that’s the case. I mean, I know the phenomenon of the running joke at this point. I mean, it’s interesting that the ruler of the 10th is that Moon in Libra in the first house, and so career is very front and center in his life. But it’s like, the ruler of the 5th is making an overcoming square to that even though there’s reception. So yeah, I think you’re definitely onto something with that manifestation. 

CB: Yeah. So I don’t know. We’ll see how it goes and we’ll see if that changes in the future. But it’s just a current, you know, perhaps like the other thing, it was a current thing for a period of time and then it changed. But we’ll see what happens. 

Okay, so moving on. The next chart I found was this is the birth chart of Johnny Sins, who is like, a famous male porn actor at this point in time. And he has Taurus rising and he has Aquarius on the 10th whole sign house, and the ruler of the 10th house of career is Saturn in Virgo in the 5th whole sign house. And that’s his thing; he’s just like, a famous contemporary male porn actor who’s done hundreds of movies and other things like that. 

LS: Do you happen to know if that’s his given name or if he changed it as a stage name? 

CB: I don’t know, but I’m pretty sure that’s a stage name. 

LS: It’s pretty funny. 

CB: Yeah. I think you pick a stage name. 

All right, so let’s see. So moving on. The next one is Tee Corrine. I had found her because she was like, a famous photographer and author and editor, but she’s really notable for her portrayals of sexuality in her artwork. And according to – there’s a book titled Completely Queer: The Gay and Lesbian Encyclopedia – it says that Corinne is “one of the most visible and accessible lesbian artists in the world,” where she often focuses on creating these really beautiful images that are focused on lesbian sexuality. 

So her chart is Scorpio rising; Pisces is the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler is Jupiter, which is up there in Leo in the 10th house copresent with the Midheaven, the North Node, and Pluto. 

LS: Yeah. That’s impressive. Not just the connection between the 5th and the 10th of both artistic creation, but also sexuality, but that it has Jupiter in Leo in a day chart in the 10th house as long as the time is exact. It’s like, and then the ruler of the 10th is that Sun in Scorpio right on the Ascendant. Really prominent connections between artistic creativity and sexuality and career in her chart.

CB: Right. Yeah. Exactly. 

All right, so moving on. The next one is Dorothy Dandridge, who I think we might have talked about a little bit in the last episode. But she was a famous actress who was born with Leo rising, Taurus is on the 10th whole sign house, and the ruler is Venus, which is in Sagittarius retrograde in the 5th whole sign house, the place of children, in a night chart.

So Dorothy Dandridge was famous because she was the first African-American film star to be nominated for the Academy Award for Best Actress for her role in the movie Carmen Jones. So on the one hand, that’s striking and important in and of itself. But then there’s this other component to it that’s kind of tricky with the retrograde and also the fact that the ruler of the 5th house itself is Jupiter, which is in Scorpio in the 4th under the beams, which is that in that role, she actually ended up having an affair with the director who was married at the time, and then she became pregnant during the course of the production. But then she was forced by the studio to have an abortion in order to avoid a scandal and in order to protect her career. And this took place partially during the making of Carmen Jones in 1954, although I’ve seen some conflicting accounts sometimes saying 1955. But nonetheless, it’s wild that on the one hand, it’s like, having that landmark role with the ruler of the 10th in the 5th, but then it also being partially tied up in this other thing that was happening privately at the time in terms of personal life. 

LS: Right. Yeah. We’re mostly focusing on like, the connection between two houses, but you know, occasionally commenting on the other ones because there’s always more interconnections telling the full story between different houses. 

CB: Yeah. Exactly. We’re trying to like, simplify things as much as possible to focus on our primary thing. But things are often multiple houses are relevant or there’s multiple things involved. 

LS: Right. Yeah. 

CB: All right. So the next one I found in my research was Bugsy Siegel. And this was interesting, because it has some overlap with some of the gambling stuff that we were talking about previously with the 5th and 9th house. But Bugsy Siegel was a mobster who was involved a lot in gambling and prostitution and womanizing and most notably for setting up one of the early casinos in Vegas that was like, a casino hotel that was really high class and it ended up starting the whole trend of having these huge mega hotel casinos in Vegas, which eventually led to the whole Vegas strip and everything else. And he was involved in that. What I found fascinating about his chart was just it has Scorpio rising, and it has this whole stellium of planets in the 5th house, including Mercury and Venus and the Sun and Saturn. And then the ruler of the 5th house is Jupiter, which is placed in Taurus in the 7th house. But part of it is just that, right, that Leo’s on the 10th house of career, and the ruler is the Sun, which is in the 5th house which we’ve already talked about in connection potentially with games and gambling and things like that. But it’s interesting that on the one hand, it’s like, Venus is there in a night chart, so he’s benefiting from that greatly. But then on the other hand, Saturn is there and it’s like, there’s this underworldly component because it’s like, the mob, and he’s doing it partially in the context of sometimes like, extorting people or other things like that. And then eventually, due to some of his mishandling of the casino in Vegas, the mob ordered a hit on him and had him shot basically. 

LS: Oh wow. 

CB: Yeah. 

LS: Yeah. So any time you find like, the benefic of sect and the malefic contrary to sect in the same house, you’ll at some point in life experience both of those. They don’t negate each other. And that is a great example of that. I’m glad you found such a core like, gambling, Las Vegas example, because that really does go in the 5th house. But you know, we just had like, a few of them. But that’s a really good one. 

CB: Yeah. Exactly. 

All right. And the last one that we found is Shelley Thornton, who was actually the baby that was involved in the Roe versus Wade case that we were talking about earlier. And this was fascinating, because her birth time came out at some point like, a few years ago and data collectors found it I think when a birth certificate was released or something. But she has Gemini rising, and the… You know, interesting as we were talking about earlier, the ruler of the Ascendant is in the 12th house, and that whole notion of like, what happens prior to birth. But the most fascinating thing is that Pisces is the 10th whole sign house, and it’s ruled by Jupiter, which is placed in the 5th house of children. And you know, long story short was that her mother tried to have an abortion but then was in Texas and was stopped, so she still ended up having the child. And this is the birth chart of the child, basically. And then because of that entire court case, though, it ended up for a time it ended up legalizing abortion in the Untied States through the Supreme Court decision. And it’s just wild that this is like, the birth chart of the person who that court case was based on. 

LS: Right. Yeah. And so her having the ruler of the 10th in the 5th, even if it’s something she wasn’t trying to choose, something very publicly about her very existence was directed towards 5th house topics of like, reproduction. 

CB: Right. Yeah. Exactly. 

So that kind of rounds out that entire topic and everything in terms of that and in terms of a bunch of our 10th house examples. 

LS: Yeah. Can I mention a timing thing? 

CB: With her? 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Sure. 

LS: I noticed when we were looking her up – because I had found the chart earlier of the woman who was the plaintiff for Roe v. Wade, and you were like, “Wait, let me see if we have the other chart.” And so I was looking up timing, and the day that Roe v. Wade was overturned – June 24th, 2022 – transiting Uranus was exactly conjunct Shelley Thornton’s Ascendant ruler, Mercury, at 17 Taurus in the 12th house. And I just thought that was fascinating, because again, it’s not something she chose as part of her life. But her Ascendant ruler being, you know, one of the most primary placements about her existence and who she is, that that was like, a major transit – like, you know, a changing transit – to her Ascendant ruler. And the case was in part about her; it was about her biological mom and it was about her. 

CB: Wow. That’s really wild. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. Well, that’s a good example that sometimes the chart is representing the impact that a person’s life and existence has had on the world in general in some broader sense. And sometimes that’s why it continues to like, respond to important transits, even if they aren’t like, directly affecting you and in some instances like, even after you’ve died. Like, people’s charts, if their memory comes up or something about them becomes prominent again in the future, the chart will sometimes still be reacting to that. 

LS: Exactly. Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. All right, let’s transition to talking about the 11th house and its connection with the ruler of the 5th. So my first example that I found of this is Sally Struthers, who is a famous actress, but what’s actually most interesting about her is that she’s done a lot of work with childs charities that she is like, very well-known for.

So she was born with Libra rising, and Aquarius is on the 5th whole sign house, and only the Lot of Fortune is there. And the ruler is Saturn, which is in Leo in the 11th whole sign house conjunct Pluto and the Sun. And so what’s really interesting about her as a figure is that she did a lot of work advocating for impoverished children. And according to Wikipedia, for example, there’s a paragraph that says, “Struthers was a spokesperson for Christian Children’s Fund, later renamed the Child Fund, advocating on behalf of impoverished children in developing countries.” And for decades, they would run these commercials so that she became like, the most recognizable face of this organization which is now Child Fund International and essentially acted as their spokesperson. So beginning in the 1970s, she appeared in a series of these really like, powerful and widely broadcast television commercials and infomercials where they typically featured her going to developed countries and often sitting in a barren landscape or a modest dwelling place and then holding or interacting with a child who was living in extreme poverty. And she would make a really emotional and direct appeal to the camera asking viewers to sponsor a child for a small amount of money per day, often famously using the phrase, “For the price of a cup of a coffee,” and then saying you could sponsor a child, you know, to survive and to be able to eat. 

So the commercials and her advocacy was incredibly successful, and it raised hundreds of millions of dollars over the years where she was like, using her celebrity as an actress and combining it with these heartfelt appeals to motivate tons of Americans to become child sponsors. And I thought that was like, a really amazing example of having the ruler of the 5th house of children in the 11th house of groups and organizations and alliances and things like that and becoming the figurehead of this childs charity, essentially. 

LS: You often see nonprofit organizations show up in the 11th house, partly because they’re a group, partly because nonprofits often have to work together in alliances, which is also an 11th house thing. But also the social activism, social change work can be an 11th house thing because it’s dealing with the larger social sphere. 

CB: Yeah, absolutely. So it ties in also some of those like, philanthropic sort of connotations of both the 5th house and the 11th house as well. 

LS: Yeah, it does, yeah. And also, you know, the Saturn ruling the 5th in the 11th and placed closely conjunct Pluto I think we were talking about speaks to the condition of children’s lives that she was trying to help. So it wasn’t necessarily that her own 11th house was completely messed up, but it was like, importing this difficulty, this challenge from the area of children into the social change work or nonprofit work. 

CB: Yeah. And it was like, really extreme cases of poverty or malnourishment and stuff like that with Saturn conjunct Pluto in terms of the — 

LS: Right. 

CB: — people she was trying to help. 

LS: Yeah. I mean, Saturn-Pluto together, especially so closely, can be literal like, you know, dire survival needs, which is what she was speaking about. 

CB: Yeah. For sure. All right, so that’s one example. The next example is Fred Rogers, who we’ve talked about previously in the series, but he had Taurus rising, Virgo is the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler of the 5th house is Mercury, which is up in the 11th house of friends and groups along with a whole stellium of planets in the 11th house, such as Venus, the Moon, and the Sun. And he was famously the head of this children’s show called Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood, where he especially emphasized themes of friendship and creating this personal relationship with the viewer, with his child audience of being their friend. 

LS: And there was this one notable instance in 1969 where he famously testified before Congress to secure funding for PBS – unfortunately, another relevant thing today. It is regarded as one of the most emotionally compelling congressional testimonies in US history. And he’s considered responsible for securing PBS funding for years to come because the Nixon administration had planned to cut funding by half. But then he secured more than like, what they already had. So and I know you were talking about this one with regard to, you know, the place of the ruler of the 5th of children in the 11th house, the place of advocacy or lifting up of causes. 

CB: Yeah. Absolutely. Especially just speaking to organizations and groups in this instance that are trying to help children or help educate children or other things like that. 

LS: Yeah, exactly. 

CB: Yeah. So this example was actually sent in by Lindsey, and Lindsey was the one that did the write-up — 

LS: Okay. 

CB: — on this. So I wanted to give — 

LS: Nice. 

CB: — a shoutout to her. And one of the things she pointed out that the show became just weeks before Fred Rogers’ 40th birthday, which then activates his 5th house according to annual profections.

LS: Nice. Yeah, that’s great. 

CB: Yeah. Isn’t that impressive? 

LS: It is! I love the timing. 

CB: All right. So that was a good one. The next one we found – I came across this one, Stevie Nicks, and I didn’t understand it at first, and then you actually explained the significance and how that made sense to me. And then I had to look it up and research more. But so this is the birth chart of Stevie Nicks, who is a famous musician who was born with Aries rising and Aquarius on the 11th whole sign house so that Saturn is ruling the 10th house of career as well as the 11th house of friends and groups. And it’s placed in the 5th house in Leo conjunct Pluto – in this instance, the 5th house of creativity, but also romance and sex and things like that. And you pointed out that she famously had an affair with one of the other people in her band, and that this created a bunch of tensions in the group amongst her friends and coworkers. 

LS: Right. They still had to play all these concerts together, sometimes playing like, pointed songs that were pointing to the issue. So her affair with Mick Fleetwood was a significant and tumultuous event in the history of their band. It contributed to a lot of internal drama. And the relationship occurred around 1977 during the band’s tour for the very successful album Rumours. So it was like, this band was just like, all these different ex-lovers who were still having to create and perform together. Just like, really great 5th house ruler in – or sorry, is it the 5th in the 11th? 

CB: It’s the ruler of the 11th — 

LS: It’s the 11th in the 5th. 

CB: — the 5th. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. 

LS: It’s the 11th in the 5th. And yeah, just that connection of like, it’s a musical group – so it’s a group making music, ruler of the 11th in the 5th – but it’s the Saturn-Pluto again! So it’s like, brings up kind of murky stuff. And there’s just a lot of funny references to how they were still playing songs that were like, about betrayal and deceit, but playing them together! 

CB: Right. Yeah. So she later ended up writing at least three songs about the affair, and some of them became really popular songs that they would then play as part of their rotation as part of the band. So it’s kind of interesting in terms of that and just the connection with the 11th house, ruler of the 11th house in the 5th. And then she also was just an example in and of itself of the ruler of the 10th house in the 5th as well because she’s such a prominent and successful musician both with the band she was in, which is the 11th house, but then also as a solo artist. And what I thought was amazing about that is that she was the first woman to have been inducted twice into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame where she was inducted first as a member of Fleetwood Mac in 1998, and then later in 2019 she was inducted as a solo artist in 2019. So it’s like, you get the ruler of the 11th house of friends and groups and her band in some sense in the 5th house and being inducted there first. But then also with the ruler of the 10th in the 5th, being inducted solo as well. 

LS: Nice. Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. So the only other thing I found in researching her biography is on Wikipedia, it has this little piece of children where it says, “Nicks has said that she consciously chose not to have children of her own due to her demanding career and desire to follow her art wherever it should take her.” And then it has a quote from her that says, “My mission maybe wasn’t to be a mom and a wife. Maybe my particular mission was to write songs and make moms and wives feel better.” And then elsewhere it says, “Of her niece, godchildren, former stepson, and extended family, she says, ‘I have lots of kids. It’s much more fun to be the crazy auntie than it is to be the mom anyway.’” And I just thought that was perfect because of, you know, we’re looking at a chart with like, Saturn in the 5th house in a night chart, and she chooses not to have children so that she can especially follow her career as a musician and as a creative person with Saturn ruling the 10th house. 

LS: Right. For sure. And she was born in the 1940s, so that’s much more of an outlier to deliberately choose not to have children than it is today. 

CB: Right. For sure. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. So I thought that was a good one. All right, so moving onto our next example is Martha Graham, right? 

LS: So Martha Graham was an American modern dancer, teacher, and choreographer whose style – the Graham technique – reshaped the dance world. And her chart, she has Gemini rising, and Libra is her 5th house, and Saturn is placed exalted in Libra in the 5th house, and that’s ruled by Venus in Aries in the 11th house. So we’ve got Saturn in the 5th and the ruler of the 5th in the 11th. And so one of the things she’s known for is the technique was widely regarded as the first codified modern dance technique, which is very like, Saturn in the 5th. And one of the really funny things about it is one of its main principles is a focus on contraction and release, which as soon as I read that, I was like, “That is very Saturn in the 5th!” But like, a very constructively dignified Saturn! Anyway, because one of the principles, of course, of Saturn is contraction. 

CB: Right. 

LS: But you know, the interesting thing to me about the 5th and 11th connection here is her dance company that she founded in 1926 is the oldest dance company in the United States, and it’s the oldest continually performing contemporary dance company in the world. And so she was really known for bringing this creativity and channeling it through a group. She also had a school with the ruler of the 9th in the 5th, which is the Saturn. But she’s also well-known for this company which is like, a dance group. And the other funny thing I thought about when I was reading her biography is the first group piece that she created was called “Heretic.” It was centered on the theme of rejection, one that would reoccur in other of her works down the line. And I thought that was both really illustrative or both Saturn as a basic principle and in the 5th house of like, rejection, but also of Venus in Aries, which is the group piece because that was her first group piece that she made. And Venus in Aries is in the sign opposite of its rulership, so it’s very literally in exile. 

CB: Yeah. Absolutely. That’s great. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Cool. All right. Let’s keep it moving. So the next example that I found of the ruler of the 5th in the 11th is Dr. Drew Pinsky who was born with Cancer rising and Scorpio is the 5th whole sign house, and it’s ruled by Mars, which is located in Taurus in the 11th house with the Moon. And what I found funny about this – Mars is actually also ruling the 10th house of career and the degree of the Midheaven – is Dr. Drew did a call-in show for – he was a doctor and a board-certified addiction medicine specialist, and he did a call-in show called Loveline where people would call in the 1990s in a radio show and ask about sex and love and relationship problems and all sorts of other 5th house things. And he was doing this initially as a small thing, but then he ended up being partnered up with Adam Carolla, and the two of them started working together and became friends and ended up developing a lifelong friendship. And it was when the two of them sort of got together and started acting together, especially since Adam had a background in comedy, that it became this phenomenon in the 1990s where their radio show became really popular and then eventually they got an MTV version of the show that they did on video and ended up becoming like, lifelong friends and stuff. But I was fascinated by that just because it was through that connection with this other guy that became his friend that Drew ended up finding his life’s work in some ways with the ruler of the 5th house of sex and sexuality in the 5th house of friends and groups, and that seeming to be —

LS: The 11th house. 

CB: In the 11th house of friends and groups. And that seeming to be like, part of what that placement’s about. 

LS: Yeah. That’s great. It’s a great example. And you know, to reinforce it further, his Ascendant ruler – did you already say this? His Ascendant ruler is in the 11th, and it’s applying to conjoin that ruler of the 5th in the 11th. 

CB: Right. Yeah. 

LS: So —

CB: And the Ascendant ruler’s exalted. 

LS: Yeah. So really great, yeah, 5th house expression through friends.

CB: Yeah. Exactly. Okay, so let’s see. So moving on. Another more recent example of like, a famous YouTuber that came up in my files – this is the birth chart of Colleen Ballinger, who was born with Capricorn rising and Taurus is on the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler is Venus, which is in the 11th house in Scorpio retrograde and conjunct Pluto, Mercury, and the Sun. And there was this like, she’s like, a famous YouTuber – because Venus is not just ruling the 5th house, but also the 10th house of career – where she did like, comedy especially for kids and for a younger audience. And that’s like, her primary thing. But then there was like, a controversy a few years ago where it was like, she’d become like, friends with some of these younger people who were fans of hers and who were in her audience. And then there ended up being some like, accusations of her being too open and talking too openly sometimes about edgy stuff or sometimes even about who people were dating or possibly about sex and sexuality and things like that that were like, pushing the boundaries of what was appropriate, especially with her being a woman in her 20s or 30s who was talking to younger kids or to teenagers and stuff like that. And she famously did an apology video with a ukulele singing it as a song, and it was a weird response to the entire controversy. And I don’t know all the details and didn’t go through all of the full details of everything, so I don’t really have a strong opinion about where it came out in the end. But I think the core of it that I was just fascinated by was just that it was clear that she was being – and I think even she acknowledged at one point that she was being overly friendly in treating some of her younger audience as friends even though there was a very large age disparity, and that at an early point in her career, she realized that she should have had better boundaries in terms of that. So regardless of whether there was like, worse stuff going on or not, it was interesting that that became at least the main source of difficulty that she acknowledged and that she would do differently later on or what have you. 

LS: Yeah. That’s very literal. 

CB: Yeah. All right. Moving on. The last one I wanted for the 11th house is Salvador Dali, who was a famous artist in the 20th century who was born with Cancer rising and Scorpio is the 5th whole sign house and it’s ruled by Mars, which is in Taurus in the 11th house along with Mercury, the Sun, and Venus. So it’s a whole stellium in the 11th house, but Mars is ruling the 5th house of creativity, the 10th house of career, and it’s in the 11th house of friends and groups. And Dali was famously part of this entire art scene where he was part of the Paris surreal group. And I meant to say that this example was actually submitted by Orla, so I wanted to give a shoutout to her for finding this one and pointing this out. And one of the things that was said was that the core collective of surrealist artists and intellectuals was based in Paris during the 1920s and ‘30s, and there’s an entire group of different people, but Dali was a key figure as part of this movement or this collective of different artists. 

LS: Yeah. That’s really great. Yeah, he became one of the movement’s leading exponents, developing iconic works such as The Persistence of Memory, and he collaborated with other surrealists, though eventually his eccentric behavior eventually led to his expulsion in 1942 from the group.

CB: Nice. So that kind of ties in with the 11th house component where we’re talking about like, Mars in a day chart and sometimes that can bring themes of severing and separating, and he literally was like, expelled from the group or severed from the group. 

LS: Right. Yeah. For sure.

CB: Yeah. 

LS: I had looked up, similarly, I had tried to look up members of the Algonquin Round Table, which was like, a creative group of artists and writers and literary critics in the 1920s. And if anyone can find timed charts for some of those, I bet they would be great 5th and 11th examples. But I just could not, which was very frustrating. It just seemed like a really interesting creative group; some of them eventually founded the New Yorker magazine. 

CB: Okay. Nice.

LS: It seems similar to that artist group, too. 

CB: Yeah, absolutely. Artists’ collectives and people that work together for a shared purpose or through shared ideals. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. All right. I think that’s good for the 11th house, so why don’t we transition into talking about the final house, which is the 12th house. 

LS: That sounds good.

CB: Let’s pull up our first example. All right, so our first example is the birth chart of Joe Biden. In his chart, he has Sagittarius rising and Aries is the 5th whole sign house. And it’s ruled by Mars, so Mars is the ruler of the 5th house of children, and it’s in the 12th house in Scorpio. And the 12th house can be associated with loss. So Mars is in Scorpio in a day chart, so it’s contrary to the sect and it’s copresent with Mercury and the Sun and Venus. And famously, he – in his late 20s, he became a politician. He got elected to office, but then a few weeks after he was elected to office before he was even sworn in, his wife and his children were involved in this terrible car accident. And his wife ended up dying in the car accident as well as one of his children died, and then another was seriously injured in the accident as well. 

LS: Yeah. And it’s something that is like, a significant public part of his life story at this point. 

CB: Right. Yeah. And then it’s like, sadly even, you know, when he got older, his son Beau Biden, who ended up having a long and successful career and was in the military, ended up getting cancer and he passed away of cancer later on as an adult. So then later, Biden experienced the loss of children through a chronic illness, through cancer. And then more recently and more famously, his other son has struggled with issues surrounding addiction and drug use and things like that. 

LS: Right. And this is really not just the ruler of the 5th in the 12th, but it’s Mars in a day chart being the ruler of the 5th in the 12th. And that’s why there’s, you know, such significant struggles. 

CB: Right. 

LS: And losses.

CB: Yeah. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah, exactly. So just some challenging stuff coming up in the context of children with the ruler of the 5th house in the 12th house. 

LS: Right. 

CB: All right. So speaking of that, the next chart example is the birth chart of Queen Catherine de Medici. So this is like, one of our oldest timed charts that I have from way back then, because one of the interesting things is about with royalty is like, they really did record the birth times of royals when they were born going pretty far back. And she was born in April of 1519, and she has Taurus rising, Virgo is the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler of the 5th house of children is Mercury, which is in Aries in the 12th whole sign house. 

LS: Yeah. And she experienced significant loss with her children. So out of 10 children, only seven survived to adulthood. And then additionally, three of her sons did become kings of France, but they all faced challenges and met tragic ends. So Francis II became king at 15 years old but died within a year due to an ear infection. Charles IX ascended the throne at age 10; heavily influenced by his mother, he died at 23 from tuberculosis. And then finally, Henry III became king at age 22, but struggled with political turmoil and was assassinated at age 37. So that’s quite a bit of loss there. 

CB: Yeah. A lot of loss and hardship, and she also lost several other children in infancy or early childhood. So a lot of these losses, the core thing that I was really understanding about this, because I was watching there was like, a TV series about her, and that was one of the reasons why I was really getting into her life story. But I can’t remember the name right now off-hand, but it was actually really good. I watched the first season, but I haven’t watched the second yet. But all of these losses caused her like, immense grief and ended up influencing some of her subsequent actions and decisions when she acted as queen and regent in terms of that. 

LS: Yeah. I mean, and again, I wanna point out – just like with the 5th and 8th house examples, you know, if you have the ruler of the 5th in the 12th, you’re not necessarily going to lose your children to untimely death. It’s interesting looking at that ruler of the 5th is Mercury in Aries, but then the ruler of that is Mars in a day chart, like, closely applying to oppose Saturn. So she really had some reinforcing things here making that difficult. 

CB: Yeah. I mean, it’s like, Mercury is ruled by that Mars, which is contrary to sect in a day chart. Saturn’s up there in Capricorn overcoming Mercury through a superior square, and even like, Pluto is making a degree-based square within less than half a degree to Mercury from seven Pluto to seven Aries. So there’s just a bunch of stuff going on there that’s tricky with that ruler of the 5th house. 

LS: Right. Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. All right. So moving on. A more recent example that was more positive, showing a more positive manifestation of the 12th house when it’s connected with children, is I found this example and this is the birth chart of Howie Mandel, who is a famous comedian. And he has Capricorn rising and the 5th house is Taurus with the IC there, and it’s ruled by Venus, which is in the 12th house. And one of the things that’s really fascinating about his recent biography is during the covid pandemic – so Howie Mandel is like, a comedian and moves in those circles and has done other things, including a television show earlier in his life. Like, he was known for when I was growing up like, Bobby’s World with Venus also ruling the 10th house of career. But one of the things I found fascinating with the ruler of the 5th house of children in the 12th house is when the covid lockdowns happened, he ended up starting a podcast with his daughter. So he has like, an adult daughter, and they started a podcast together, and they’re still doing it to this day. But it started within the context of the lockdowns and being stuck in isolation during the course of this like, deadly pandemic and disease that was going around that was killing so many people that they ended up doing that. So I thought it was actually really interesting in this instance more positive or constructive manifestation of the ruler of the 5th in the 12th of doing something positive despite the negative or challenging circumstances. 

LS: Yeah, definitely. And that’s nicely a benefic ruling the 5th in the 12th in this case, right? So that — 

CB: Yeah. 

LS: — makes a big difference. 

CB: Yeah. And overcoming it through a superior square. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Or actually technically, Venus is applying to an out-of-sign trine with that Jupiter, so it’s actually bonifying it and protecting it even more. 

LS: Yeah. It’s quite positive. Yeah, and there was something else where it said he created the podcast with his daughter as a way to connect and cope with their mental health struggles during that time. And mental health frequently falls in the 12th house as one of the topics. But in this case, it’s like, a positive thing, so it’s doing something to help improve that situation, right? 

CB: Right. 

LS: Yeah. And then I had looked him up a while ago after you had first mentioned him, and on Wikipedia it said that he first came to prominence acting in a famous hospital drama, which I thought was just a hilarious additional layer of the ruler of the 5th house of creative work and acting in the 12th house and hospitals like, definitely are assigned to the 12th house. 

CB: Right. That’s brilliant. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Nice, nice. 

LS: It’s really one of the best things about being a creative person, I think, and we’ll see this in another example where even if you have placements that should be in like, difficult houses or something, if you just embody that through an acting role, it can actually take the significance. It can take the manifestation. 

CB: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. We’ve seen a lot of that of actors and creatives using their creative output and then like, creating things that are dark or negative or what have you, and that being a way of – what’s the word – like, transmuting that energy into something positive. 

LS: Right. Or like, this is like, acting like you’re in a hospital instead of actually being sent to the hospital yourself. 

CB: Yeah. For sure. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: All right. So that is my positive example. So the next one is the birth chart of Jodie Foster, who was born with Sagittarius rising and Aries is the 5th whole sign house and the place of like, sex and sexuality, and she has Mars ruling the 5th house, and it’s also the ruler of the 12th house, and it’s placed in the 9th house. And I was like, looking at this when it came up when I was researching the houses, and I had like, no idea how that worked out. The only part that I did know was that she was famously very private about her sexual orientation, and it was speculated that she was gay for a number of years, but she didn’t confirm it for like, a very long time. 

But one of the things that came up for her, she actually finally came out publicly in 2013, but one of the things I was realizing about her with it in the 9th house is – I was like, why is it in the 9th house? And I realized later it was probably not just due to privacy, but it was probably partially due to issues with other people’s beliefs and concerns over what other people believed impacting her decision to be more private. But also, I realized at one point that one of the connections as well with Mars in the 9th whole sign house in a day chart is she became famous as like, a young actress, but she famously decided to stop her acting career even though it was like, on a roll, to go to college in order to go to college and get an education. But what sucked is that she started being stalked while she was at college by this crazy game named John Hinckley, Jr., and he started sending her notes at college and other things. And she ended up ignoring and rebuffing him. So then he decided to attempt to kill Reagan, basically, in order to impress her. And this incident ended up like, interfering with and impacting negatively her entire college career. And she almost left college completely, but then eventually decided to go back and complete it. But that’s part of the delineation, I think, of what’s going on here is it’s like, the ruler of what otherwise is romance, but it’s also the ruler of the 12th house of enemies, and it’s in the 9th house of education, and she had this really bad singular experience of essentially like, a stalker and somebody doing unwanted romantic advances while she was in college. 

LS: Wow. That’s very vivid, and a very unique example. Thankfully that doesn’t happen most of the time. 

CB: Yeah. Although, I mean, part of the reason I was able to recognize it where I hadn’t previously even though I’ve used her chart in the past is I was doing little readings on like, TikTok, and I had somebody who said that they had a notably negative college experience, and I saw that he had Saturn in the 9th house in a night chart. And he described this like, particularly bad series of unfortunate incidents that just happened to happen while he was in college. And that was one of the reasons why I realized later what was going on in Jodie Foster’s case. 

LS: Yeah. For sure. I’ve seen the malefic contrary to sect in or ruling the 9th as like, interruption of college, for sure.

CB: Yeah. The education and sometimes it’s like, cut off permanently so they don’t finish. But in her case, I’m pretty sure she went back and graduated. 

LS: Good. 

CB: Yeah. All right, moving on. 12th house example that we already talked about, but this is Frida Kahlo again just to mention in passing again briefly, who was born with Leo rising, Sagittarius 5th house ruled by Jupiter, which is exalted in the 12th house. And she famously dealt with some major health issues and injuries, but created a lot of beautiful art that has become very well-known around the world that often featured some of her struggles and pains and like, 12th house feelings of isolation and other things like that. 

LS: Yeah. Definitely. Sometimes – pretty often – when you have the benefic of sect in a difficult house like this exalted Jupiter in a day chart in the 12th house, I mean, sometimes you get the best manifestation of those house topics, and at other times, there are still those more challenging circumstances that happen. But then you are able to make something really positive come out of it, like in her case. 

CB: Right. Yeah. Absolutely. And you know, she also – with the ruler of the 5th in the 12th – some of art actually featured like, she channeled some of her profound grief over miscarriages and infertility into her art in a number of different paintings and works, and the paintings kind of depicted her physical and emotional pain, the loss of her unborn children and her inability to carry a pregnancy to term due to injuries she had from that bus accident and some of the subsequent surgeries later on. 

LS: In addition to just her struggles with her body feeling broken with her Ascendant ruler there applying to the ruler of the 5th. 

CB: Right. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. So and then of course with the ruler of the 12th in the 10th house as we talked about, she’s now like, one of the most famous artists in the world, but it was often through expressing that 12th house loss and challenges in many ways. 

LS: Right. Yeah, definitely. 

CB: All right. All right, so moving on. The next chart was Eleanor Roosevelt, who was born with Sagittarius rising, Aries is on the 5th whole sign house, and it’s ruled by Mars, which is in Scorpio in the 12th. And on the one hand, there were some issues with her husband who was President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and his infidelities which ended up impacting their marriage in a negative way with the ruler of the 5th in the 12th. But then also later on in life, she herself ended up pursuing other relationships on her own, including some same-sex relationships that had to be kept secret and had to be kept away from the public. 

LS: Yeah. Her most significant romantic relationship, aside from her husband, was her long-term affair with journalist Lorena Hickok. And yeah, it definitely had to be kept secret. But they were close for a while. I did their relationship – or Eleanor Rossevelt’s relationship timing in one of my relationship timing lectures that hopefully at some point will get back on my website, and yeah, she was with her for a while. And she also – it was pretty rumored, at least she had a very close relationship with her bodyguard Earl Miller. There’s sort of speculative things and sort of like, you know, mixed messages as far as how that went. But yeah, she certainly had some romantic liaisons that were not public. 

CB: Right. Yeah. So the 12th house, and I think I’ve understood more and more over the past few years why that is for the 12th house, and I think part of it is that in the 12th house, it’s like, when the Sun rises in the morning, the other stars and planets that you can see start to disappear into the sky when the sky shifts from night to day. And so there’s this element of things like, moving into obscurity or going behind the scenes that happens with the 12th house, which I think is part of the symbolism with that, although there’s probably a few other ways you could approach it as well. 

LS: Yeah. No, I think that makes a lot of sense. 

CB: Yeah. All right. So moving on, there’s a similar one with – this is the birth chart of Arnold Schwarzenegger, who we’ve talked about already earlier, where he has Cancer rising. He has Jupiter in Scorpio in the 5th whole sign house, and the ruler of the 5th house of children is in the 12th house, which is Mars in Gemini conjunct Uranus in Gemini as well as the North Node which is earlier in the sign. And like, the main thing with him was just that the scandal that happened that came out at one point after he left the governorship where it turned out that he had had an affair with a maid that worked for his family for a number of years, and then she ended up having a child so that he ended up having a secret love child for years that his family didn’t know about even though the child was like, kind of raised around them. And then later on, it came out at some point in time and became public knowledge to his family, which led to the divorce from his wife, Maria Shriver, and other things like that. 

LS: Right. Yeah. Especially when it first came out, it was like, a very notable ruler of the 5th in the 12th, because it wasn’t like, an infant or a toddler that had been discovered; it was like, you know, a child who was much older – a teenager, I think – at the time. 

CB: Right. 

LS: Also, interestingly, just as an aside, he also has the ruler of the 6th in the 5th house, which is an inversion of Maria Shriver’s ruler of the 5th in the 6th conjunct Neptune. So — 

CB: Right. 

LS: — there’s like, a connection here between employees and the 5th house. 

CB: Yeah. That’s a really good point. Yeah, good point. So again, though, just reiterating some of those themes sometimes of something being hidden or obscured when it’s in the 12th house. 

LS: Exactly. 

CB: All right. So the other along those lines was the last one. Last example I’ll do of that and we’ll move on was Tiger Woods, who we’ve talked about earlier who has Virgo rising and Capricorn is the 5th whole sign house, and it’s ruled by Saturn, which is in the 12th house. And he was like, the number one golf player in the world for a period of time, but then his wife – in the tabloids one day, it broke in the tabloids that his wife and him got in this huge fight. And then it turned out that he had a number of affairs, and it all came out all of a sudden. And for a period of time, it led to a lot of major disarray in terms of his life and his professional career that he kind of knocked off the top for a period of time on, and then he ended up having to like, rebuild from there. 

LS: Right. And it’s interesting that his Ascendant ruler in the 5th is applying out of sign, but you know, fairly closely to the opposition with that Saturn in the 12th. 

CB: Yeah, it’s got two things going on there, because on the one hand, it’s actually be bonified by Venus, which is at 28 degrees of Scorpio overcoming Mercury and helping to affirm its significations as the ruler of the Ascendant and ruler of the 10th, and he became just like, the number one golf player in the world for a period of time with the ruler of the Ascendant and ruler of 10th in the 5th house of sports and games. But then yeah, there was also some major challenges that he ran into as well. 

LS: Right. 

CB: Yeah. All right. So that’s good. The next example is one that I first found when I was researching the second house episode, which is the birth chart of King Farouk of Egypt who was born with Libra rising and I talked about him in the second house episode because he famously had these huge collections of lots of different things of like, possessions. And it was something about —

LS: Right. 

CB: — like, the Moon being in Scorpio in the 2nd house and just gathering tons and tons of things. But the important point with him is that he ends up functionally being like, the last king of Egypt because he ended up being deposed in a military coup. And what’s interesting is that in the military coup, they deposed Farouk as king, but then they installed his son as the king, but his son was just like, an infant at that point. So Farouk was born with Libra rising, and the Sun and Mercury in Aquarius in the 5th house. And one of the things that was famous about him is that he loved to party and he loved to do all these extravagant things, especially food and drink and eating and other things like that, but also just enjoying luxuries and all sorts of things. But ultimately, it was some of his partying and some of his extravagance that led to his downfall with Saturn ruling the 5th house as well as the 4th house and then being placed in the 12th house in a night chart as the most difficult planet. And he ended up being deposed in a military coup and then sent into exile. So I also used him for the ruler of the 4th house of home and living situation in the 12th, because he was literally sent into exile in a foreign country, and his son was made king. But his son was just an infant, and so this was really just a formality. But technically, his son became the last king of Egypt, but then after a few years, the military dictatorship, basically, just like, overthrew the son as well so that the son technically became the last king of Egypt. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: So that’s the ruler of the 5th in the 12th. 

LS: Right. And it’s interesting; you know, there were a few examples we had earlier of the ruler of the 5th in the 12th where there were like, losses of children through no fault of the person’s own. But then some of the last few, at least one component of them it seems like, has been illustrating the ruler of the 5th moving towards the 12th house signification of self-undoing. Like, they’re having some self-undoing things going on via the 5th house activities. 

CB: Right. Yeah. Sometimes when… Because that’s like, it goes back to what I was talking about in the last episode – that principle of counteraction – where you can have a planet that’s really well-placed in a chart, but according to some ancient authors like Antiochus of Athens from the first or second century, if you have a really well-placed planet but it’s ruled by a malefic that’s really poorly placed, then things will go well at first, but then later the rug will be pulled out from under you. And this is like, one of those instances. 

LS: Right. 

CB: Yeah. So I thought that was a good example. All right, so moving on to our next example is the birth chart of Bobby Fischer, who is a famous world chess champion for a period of time in the mid-20th century, and he was born with Leo rising and Sagittarius is the 5th whole sign house, the place of games, which we’ve seen prominent in the charts of other famous chess players and sports champions in the last episode, like… What was his name? I’m blanking out on the other chess champion from the 1980s and 1990s.

LS: Kasparov? 

CB: Yeah, Garry Kasparov who had the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th house. But what’s interesting about Fischer is he had the ruler of the 5th house in the 12th house — 

LS: Right. 

CB: — but it’s this exalted Jupiter in a day chart. And — 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: — what’s interesting is that the 12th house was traditionally the house of enemies. It’s where you find enemies and people that you don’t get along with in life. But he has the ruler of the 5th house of games exalted there, and what this made me think of and realize is that Bobby Fischer was playing chess in the mid-20th century during the height of the Cold War when the US and Russia were these arch mortal enemies basically, and there was this whole drama between the US and Russia that was playing out in international politics on a number of different levels during the height of the Cold War. But one of the areas where it played out in a really weird way was through chess and through chess competitions where even there, the two countries were sometimes putting a lot of money or a lot of emphasis into having the best chess player in the world and having their chess player beat the leading chess players from the other country. And this is part of what I think is going on here in Bobby Fischer’s chart, because he has the ruler of the 5th house of games and chess in the 12th house of enemies, but it’s exalted, and some of the delineations in like, Rhetorius of Egypt and some of the ancient astrologers about when a planet’s well-placed in the 12th is one who overcomes their enemies. And — 

LS: Right. 

CB: — Bobby Fischer for a period of time was the world chess champion who was sort of like, unbeatable or who was beating a lot of the people he was playing against. 

LS: Right, for sure. Yeah, that’s definitely how this is playing out. It’s kind of like, the best case scenario for a house ruler in the 12th house, this Jupiter situation. It’s not just exalted; it’s a day chart; it’s stationary. And it’s even square by degree the Midheaven, you know, within three degrees. It’s like, about less than a degree off. So all of those things are super mitigating factors, and so yeah, the topic of enemies comes up, but he’s victorious over them and it’s like, a positive situation overall. It’s interesting, also, you were talking about the sort of national enemy piece. And Mars is the malefic contrary to sect; it’s ruling the 9th house of foreign places, and it’s actually placed right on the Descendant. So it’s an interesting interplay there with Jupiter, you know, making a square to the Midheaven, but that ruler of the 9th being on the Descendant of like, open opponents, you know? It’s like, both of those — 

CB: Yeah. 

LS: — are actually like, you know, you have the opponents in the 7th house and the enemies in the 12th. But he has just like, a really best case scenario placement, so he’s being very successful in that environment. 

CB: Right. Yeah. And there was something later in life where he wasn’t like, officially exiled, but he went into this period of self-imposed exile for decades after 1975 and was later effectively exiled by the US government after he violated a UN sanction by playing a rematch in Yugoslavia in 1992 against like, an opponent that he wasn’t supposed to. And I forgot about that; I’m just now remembering some of that in terms of it was to play a rematch against Boris Spassky, who was one of his rivals, basically. And he violated some rules about international travel and sanctions and things like that in order to go play this match. 

LS: Okay. There was — 

CB: Yeah. 

LS: There was one incident I found as well where he – maybe that was the same match. He played some match from another country.

CB: Okay. 

LS: But like, he didn’t actually travel there; there was some issue with him traveling there. And I just thought it was such a funny like, ruler of the 5th in the 12th where he’s like, “No, I’ll still play!” And then they just like, played from a great, great distance. Like —

CB: Okay. 

LS: — essentially in isolation from each other. 

CB: Yeah. That’s amazing. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Nice. All right. Okay, so just a few more examples. So one of them I found – I was gonna put it in another section, but I decided to put it here because it’s primarily a 12th house example. But this is the chart of Pamela Anderson, and she was coming up in the news again recently for acting – like, two major acting roles that she did over the past year. But it reminded me that there was like, this major incident in her life that’s in her biography really prominently where she was born with Gemini rising and Mars is in Libra in the 5th whole sign house. And the 5th house is ruled by Venus, which is also ruling the 12th house of enemies. And it’s placed in Leo in the 3rd house conjunct the IC. And one of the things that happened, famously, in the 1990s, is that she got married to this famous rockstar, and they got married and went off and had a honeymoon. But somebody broke into their home and stole these sex tapes that they had made, and then sold it to somebody, and then it became widely sold on the internet back in the 1990s. And it was like, one of the first celebrity sex tapes. But it was like, this very private and intimate moment that was stolen by somebody, like an intruder broke into her house and then put out there. And it’s something about that combination, I’m realizing, of the 5th house of sex and sexuality, the 9th house of enemies as well as secrets — 

LS: You mean the 12th house? 

CB: The 12th house. And then Venus being conjunct the degree of the IC, and her home and living situation being kind of like, broken into or violated. 

LS: Definitely. Yeah, and I’m trying to remember what you said about like, the aftermath of what was the result for her of that getting leaked. 

CB: I mean, she was not stoked about it at all. 

LS: For sure. 

CB: And she was gonna sue the company that was selling it on the internet, but she was pregnant at the time, so she didn’t pursue it further out of fear of it causing an issue with her pregnancy. So that was part of it. And there was like, a whole separate thing we had talked about, for example, or a parallel with Hugh Hefner because we had talked about how Hugh Hefner had the ruler of the 5th house of sex and sexuality in the 3rd house of communication and became famous through Playboy. And she has a similar placement where she has Venus ruling the 5th house, and it’s in the 3rd house of communication, and she originally kind of rose to prominence after being selected in the February 1990 issue of Playboy as the Playboy playmate of the month. And then she went on to obtain the record for the most Playboy cover appearances after that point. So there’s an interesting like, parallel there with Hugh Hefner’s chart. 

LS: Yeah, that’s the part I was trying to remember, because I knew there was, you know, Venus is her benefic of sect ruling the 5th and in the 3rd. So yeah, that’s where it came out in her story. 

CB: Yeah.

LS: Yeah. But you can see – you know, sometimes when you get the ruler of the 12th in another house like it is in this instance, even if it’s a benefic of the sect and you still have a lot of good experiences with that planet, like, it does import those 12th house things, at least at a certain point in life. 

CB: Yeah. That sometimes there can be something tricky that comes up. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. All right. Moving onto… 

LS: Laverne Cox, I think. 

CB: Yeah. So this is one of your examples. Here’s the chart. 

LS: Yeah. So Laverne Cox has Leo rising; Sagittarius is the 5th house. The Moon is in Sagittarius in the 5th, and it’s ruling the 12th house. And Venus and Mars are also in the 12th house. 

So Laverne Cox is an actress who became more well-known with her role as Sophia Burset on the Netflix series Orange is the New Black, becoming the first transgender person to be nominated for a Primetime Emmy Award in an acting category. But you know, and this is just really pulling out like, one piece of her career and biography, but that show is famously set in a prison. And it was like, a very successful show for a while. And again, like I was talking about earlier, I love that actors can embody the roles that take some of the significance from a placement that could otherwise indicate something more difficult. That’s not to say that there wasn’t difficulty in her life in a 5th house manner in other ways, but I just love that that was like, a success story from her playing someone in prison, which is a 12th house thing. 

CB: Yeah. And prison is – or traditionally, the 12th house is associated with prisons as one of the very literal manifestations of it. 

LS: Yes. Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. So that’s really good with the ruler of the 12th house in the 5th, and the ruler of the 10th house in the 12th. 

LS: Yeah. So there’s like, something positive that’s coming through an acting role that involves a 12th house literal topic of prisons. 

CB: Right. Yeah. That was a huge show at the time. It was like, a sensation, especially the first few seasons. 

LS: Yeah. 

CB: All right. Let’s move on. So one of our last examples, the birth time was actually just released in the past few weeks when the birth certificate was published, but this is evidently what we think is the timed birth chart for Jeffrey Epstein. And he was born with Capricorn rising and the 12th house is Sagittarius, and it’s ruled by Jupiter, which is placed in the 5th house of sex and sexuality but also of children and younger people. And Jeffrey Epstein was famously arrested and went to jail in 2019 for sex trafficking minors and then ended up dying in prison. So there’s like, a connection here where on the broadest sense, it’s like, he went to jail for sex-related crimes with the ruler of the 12th house of prison in the 5th house of sex and sexuality, but then there’s also this other element with the 5th house and the fact that it was also specifically tied in with minors in general. 

LS: Yeah, definitely. And this is Jupiter in a night chart, so it’s more of the excess signification rather than the greater positivity in day charts. And then it’s also ruling the 12th house, which in addition to prisons can be things that, you know, you do that lead to your self-undoing. 

CB: Right. Yeah. So there’s other things about the chart and other things going on there, but I think that’s sufficient for now. Well, actually, one of the things about that is like, he was arrested much earlier, but then he was released and given this sweetheart deal by earlier people. And then it was like, he was arrested later a second time, and that’s when he like, went to prison for it and then died in prison under mysterious circumstances. So —

LS: Right. 

CB: — that’s also a little bit like the Jupiter going on there is like, he was almost lucky in not going to prison earlier than he did. 

LS: Right. Yeah, that’s a good point.

CB: Yeah. All right. So that brings us to the last example. To not end on a super-depressing note, I wanna go back to one of the examples from earlier, which is the birth chart of Gene Siskel. And I was really fascinated by this chart when I found it, because like I said, he was born with Pisces rising and this Mars-Saturn conjunction. I originally found it because I was looking for planetary pairs in the 5th house, and I was searching everybody that had Mars-Saturn conjunctions, and he had it in the 5th house of creativity, and I just thought that was such an amazing placement for a movie critic because like, one of the things they’re doing sometimes could be very brutally ripping apart somebody else’s art. And that’s one of the common sometimes criticisms of critics sometimes from the part of artists is like, artists are creating something and sometimes critics are just tearing something down instead of, you know, creating something themselves. Or at least that’s like, a counterpoint that somebody who’s not like, super happy about a bad film review might make. But one of the things that’s interesting about his chart is that Saturn is ruling both the 11th house of friends as well as the 12th house of enemies and people that you don’t get along with, and it’s in the 5th house of creativity. And what I realized at a certain point in looking into his biography and his work with Roger Ebert, who he became known for as part of the duo of the movie rating duo of Siskel and Ebert for a number of years, they became kind of effectively the leading movie reviewers in the country, is they had this like, interesting and complex relationship where sometimes they really did not get along, and they did not like each other. And they had this component at some point where they were basically kind of like, enemies that were forced to work together, and then they sort of became friends as well eventually, and they sort of alternated between sort of like, friends and enemies. And I think it’s fascinating how that worked out there with the same planet ruling the 11th house of friends as well as the 12th house of enemies and being placed there in the 5th house of creativity, and then expressing that through having this sort of love-hate relationship with somebody he was working with for most of the rest of his life as a movie reviewer.

LS: Yeah. I was thinking of that term as well – the love-hate – with Saturn ruling both the 11th house of good spirit and the 12th house of bad spirit. And you know, as we’ve shown in a bunch of other charts, a planet ruling two houses sometimes bringing those topics together. And you do sometimes see like, a connection between the 11th and 12th with people who kind of alternate being friends and then falling out of favor with friends at different points. So I’m glad in this case that it went back. You know, it wasn’t just like, in one direction, but it was more of an alternating thing. 

CB: Yeah, exactly. So it’s like, earlier – it’s like, when they were first paired together in 1975, they were from rival newspapers. And by their own admission, they initially disliked each other. And Roger Ebert wrote at one point that for the first five years they knew each other, they “hardly spoke,” and their on-air arguments and sharp disagreements were not an act. They like, genuinely were very competitive and had a professional rivalry and just didn’t like each other. But over the course of 24 years of working together, that dynamic slowly transformed, and their constant debate and their shared passion for film eventually forged this really unique and really profound connection where they became intensely aware of each other and knew what the other was thinking, and sometimes eventually developed a shared sense of humor. And that became part of the point that I think is important – the point of resolution that ties in with the 5th house as well – is like, having the same sort of wry sense of humor to a certain extent. 

LS: Yeah. That’s funny. 

CB: So when Siskel died, Ebert wrote this heartfelt tribute to him in 1999 where he explained the sort of depth of their friendship at this point, and he dismissed the public perception of a love-hate relationship and tried to clarify and he said, “Maybe the problem was that no one else could possibly understand how meaningless was the hate or how deep was the love.” And he also recalled a pitch for a sitcom about their relationship called Best Enemies, which captured the essence of their dynamic. 

LS: Wow. That’s perfect. 

CB: Yeah. So that’s it. It’s just the relationship was built on an immense mutual respect, and later while their onscreen clashes were legendary – because watching some of the reviews where they didn’t agree, like, they would get really tense. But offscreen they became united, especially against common critics. And Ebert said that if they were fighting, you should get out of the room, but if they were teamed up against a common target, then they were fatal together. So that, I thought, was a beautiful last one to end with where you have, you know, both going on – both the 12th house of enemies and the 11th house of friends, and just thinking about while the 12th is sometimes enemies in a very literal sense, sometimes it’s just like, people you don’t get along with in your life or people that you don’t vibe with. But sometimes in this instance where there’s a strong shared connection there, that can change over time. 

LS: Right. And I was just definitely thinking of that piece in particular about “over time,” right, with those two houses being ruled by Saturn in the 5th. So it’s like, over time with their shared film criticism, their relationship became more complex and multifaceted. 

CB: Yeah. And their shared passion for judging and for critiquing creative works and for art and films and having a shared appreciation for that as well as both of them having the ruler of the 5th house of creativity in the 9th house of like, philosophy and things like that, and both of them having this sort of like, philosophical disposition to judging artwork and films. 

LS: Definitely. Yeah. That’s great. 

CB: Yeah. So that is surprisingly my last example to round out this series on the ruler of the 5th house in astrology, as well as to bring our own three-part series to a close here. 

LS: Yeah. It’s pretty exciting. We’ve done this as a whirlwind recording session. I don’t think we’ve ever done these types of long ones so close together before. We did the first one on Thursday, and then we did the second one yesterday, and the third one today. 

CB: Yeah. So we recorded the first one on Thursday, September 11th, and then skipped a day and then recorded the next one on September 13th, and then today’s final episode on September 14th. So we’re recording this in the middle of eclipse season this year —

LS: Yeah! 

CB: — where there was a Pisces eclipse that happened when? On like, the 8th or something? 

LS: Yeah, some time between the 6th and the 8th. It was both the Pisces eclipse and the Uranus station; they were just like, grouped right together. 

CB: Yeah. But we’d spent like, the past few weeks just intensely researching the 5th house, and I had done a large chunk of the research late last year in November or December after putting out the 4th house episode. And a lot of the research contributions from Camille Michelle Gray and Lindsey Turner and Orla were done back then. But then I got sidetracked by doing the year ahead forecast, and then life intervened and all sorts of crazy world events started happening in the early part of 2025. And it wasn’t until now that I felt ready to start coming back to it. So we researched this intensely, and we knew it was gonna be tough recording during eclipse season. But we didn’t know that our place was gonna flood this week shortly after that eclipse, and there would be all sorts of weird tumultuousness around it. But I think we got through it and we recorded everything that we meant to say in these episodes. 

LS: Yeah! Definitely. Yeah, I’m happy with the array of charts that are here. I hope people find a lot of good learning from them, and yeah. Like we were saying before, definitely write in the YouTube comments if you know these people’s biographies and know additional reasons the significations make sense. We would love to hear those. 

CB: Yeah. So if you notice something additional that you’d like to point out, then post it in the YouTube comment, or if you have a good example of the 5th house or the ruler of the Ascendant in the 5th house or, you know, in this video especially, if you have a good example of the ruler of the 5th house in one of the 12 houses, definitely let us know and post it in the comments below this video on YouTube because that’s the best place to pool all of the comments. And then maybe if we get enough really good ones, we could do a follow-up episode or something like that for more research and more 5th house goodness. You ready to record a follow-up episode maybe tomorrow? 

LS: Maybe just lay low for a little bit! It’s been a lot of things in a row lately! 

CB: All right. 

LS: But you know, speaking of additional charts, you were also thinking of doing a Secret Astrology Podcast potentially? 

CB: Yeah. So you know, this episode has been released for early access to patrons because they’ve been supporting and funding this research, and I’m gonna probably record a bonus episode as part of The Secret Astrology Podcast, which is a series that’s available to some patrons of The Astrology Podcast through my page on Patreon. And while we integrated actually a lot of the charts in the end, we didn’t keep a lot out, there were some that we didn’t end up including just because there was like, too much. 

And also I had done some research in particular on specific planetary combinations like that Mars-Saturn conjunction with Gene Siskel’s chart, and I found a bunch of other ones like that that I thought was kind of useful and informative, so I think I may record a follow-up as part of The Secret Astrology Podcast to talk about some of those other 5th house examples. 

LS: Sounds good. And there was a potential planets in house thing that you were asking during the last video whether people were interested in. 

CB: What was that? 

LS: Just like, particular planetary placements in the 5th house. It was the part that was cut after the first three houses. 

CB: Okay.

LS: Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. I don’t know. I’m spacing out right now, so I can’t remember. 

LS: Yeah, we have some in there. It’s just a matter of whether it turns into something or not.

CB: Right. That there was some examples cut from the rulers of the houses. So yeah. I’ll take some of those and throw them in another episode for patrons. So you can sign up through our page on Patreon if you want access to that. And then also I’ll move on before too long to starting to work on the 6th house research. And eventually once I record that episode, I’ll release it for early access to patrons a while before it’s released to the public like these three episodes. I already released one of them for early access, and all of these will be released probably a week – in some instances, maybe two weeks – in advance. So if people would like access to that, then you can sign up through our page on Patreon. 

Once again, I wanted to shout out and thank the researchers that helped us, including Orla, Camille Michelle Gray, and Lindsey Turner. And then especially thank you, Leisa, for doing this with me, because you put a ton of research into this as well, and we found a lot of different charts together. We watched a bunch of movies during the course of this to help us understand and get a different perspective on some of the biographies. And then, yeah, we’ve been recording this intensely together. So I’m super happy to have done this with you, and I’m super happy especially that you’re recovering after being really seriously struggling with illness over the past few months. 

LS: Yeah. It’s been fun doing this little research spurt and recording with you. I think we learned a lot of good things. And yeah, I am doing this like, about a month out, a little under a month out from cancer surgery, so! But thankfully after about two-and-a-half weeks, my energy came back a lot. So if anyone’s surprised to see me in these intensive episodes already, that’s what happened there. I was like, oh! I feel better now. I haven’t started my new medication that’s part two of the treatment, but so far so good. I’m doing pretty well. 

CB: Good. Yeah. Well, I’m glad that you’re recovering. And it’s one of the greatest pleasures of my life to collaborate with you, so I’m really glad that we got a chance to. 

LS: Yeah. I’m glad we got to, too. It’s funny given all of the emergencies that have happened before this time with all of my parent emergencies in particular that it’s taken like, coming out for cancer surgery to be like, okay, we have a little window! We can do research and creative things together! 

CB: Yeah, for sure. All right, so we’re gonna release this. I’m also gonna release the written notes, which is like, an extensive, probably over a hundred page document with a lot of our research notes for this episode. One of the things we’ll include in there is our movie list, because we watched a lot of movies connected with some of the biographies, so I’ll include that in there. And otherwise I think that’s it, yeah? 

LS: I think that’s it! I think we have reached the end of our 5th house marathon. 

CB: Brilliant! All right! Well, I hope everyone’s learned a lot of stuff. I hope this research helps to influence and give people a good idea about what the 5th house means in astrology and to ground it in some actual empirical research because I think that’s the most important part is we started outlining some of those significations based on their tradition or conceptually or in some instances we were already in the first episode summarizing some of the research that we had done and the conclusions we were able to make from all of the chart research. But then it was really important to us to show the example charts and to actually show the empirical process of looking at people that have important placements with the 5th house, and then letting the biographies speak to us. So I hope people have learned a lot from that, not just about the 5th house but also the process of doing astrological research and how you can come to your own conclusions about some of these things. 

LS: Definitely. Yeah. 

CB: Yeah. All right. Well, thanks everyone for watching or listening to this episode of The Astrology Podcast, and we’ll see you again next time! 

[END CREDITS]

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