The Astrology Podcast

Transcript of Episode 203, titled:

Astrology Forecast for May 2019: Mercury Cazimi in Gemini

With Chris Brennan and guests Austin Coppock and Kelly Surtees

Episode originally released on April 30, 2019

Original episode URL:

theastrologypodcast.com/2019/04/30/astrology-forecast-for-may-2019-mercury-cazimi-in-gemini/

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Note: This is a transcript of a spoken word podcast. If possible, we encourage you to listen to the audio or video version, since they include inflections that may not translate well when written out. Our transcripts are created by human transcribers, and the text may contain errors and differences from the spoken audio. If you find any errors then please send them to us by email: theastrologypodcast@gmail.com

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Transcribed by Andrea Johnson

Transcription released March 3rd, 2026

Copyright © 2026 TheAstrologyPodcast.com

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CHRIS BRENNAN: Hi, my name is Chris Brennan, and you’re listening to The Astrology Podcast. This is Episode 203, and we’re gonna be talking about the forecast for May of 2019. Let’s see, what is the date today? The date is April 29, 2019. Monday, April 29, 2019, starting at 1:25 PM. Joining me today is Austin Coppock and Kelly Surtees. Hey, guys.

AUSTIN COPPOCK: Hey.

KELLY SURTEES: Hello.

CB: All right. So let’s see, other things. Oh, yeah, for more information about how to subscribe to the podcast and help support the production of future episodes by becoming a patron, please visit TheAstrologyPodcast.com/Subscribe. All right, guys, let’s get into the forecast. Hey, it’s been a month since I talked to you last. How have you both been?

KS: Hectic.

CB: Hectic. Kelly, you’re getting ready to move to Europe and finalizing that.

KS: Yeah. I mean, I’d like to say that I was getting ready, but we’ve just been dealing with some home maintenance repairs going on. So I can’t even say that we’re ready for the move yet, but it’s in the background. And it does change everything when you know you’ve only got a couple of more months in this particular country, things like, are we gonna use all of those spices or that oil? Or, should we buy smaller containers? So even though we’re not necessarily doing major packing yet, there’s definitely been a head shift, for sure.

CB: Right. That makes sense. And Austin, you are just coming back from a pretty heavy trip.

AC: Yeah. Yeah, my grandma passed about a week-and-a-half ago. And so, yeah, I flew out to Virginia where my mom’s side of the family’s from and spent time with family. It was really service. It was the nicest possible version of that, right? Still heavy. It’s funerals and the dead and the family and all that, but really everything that you could ask for. It was good. I got to go visit my grandma’s family graveyard we have in the mountains for the first time, and I saw and touched my great-grandparents’ graves, my great-great, and my great-great-great.

KS: Oh, my goodness.

AC: Yeah, they’re all in just a little cemetery, maybe 150 plots, just way up in the hills and valley.

KS: Talk about connecting with your ancestral line.

AC: Yeah.

CB: Yeah. You have any transits going on for you with respect to all of that?

AC: Oh, yeah, I’ve worked it out extensively. The non-extensive version is that Saturn-South Node-Pluto in Capricorn is very near one of my angles. Uranus is squaring the ruler of my 4th, for family. Just one little piece of the technical dissection, I’ve been thinking a lot more about houses from houses.

KS: Oh, yeah.

AC: Yeah, if the 4th is mom, then the fourth from the 4th is your mom’s mom. And that’s where the Saturn-South Node-Pluto thing is for me.

CB: Interesting.

AC: Yeah, and there’s been a lot of stuff. Moving into a profection where the ruler is Mars in the 9th and needing to fly across the country because something malefic happened, right? Which doesn’t mean evil, right? Again, it was a beautiful passing, but that’s what a malefic does. It talks about, ‘oh, someone passes’ rather than ‘someone’s born’, right? So you have a malefic in the 9th and you fly for a funeral, right? And it’s configured to the ruler of the 8th as well in my chart. So it all makes sense. So yeah, and I also started my classes, and that’s been a lot of fun. I’m really excited about both my year one and year two students. I’m really excited that people committed to a whole year. I don’t know, we’ve done two sessions with each so far, and I’m super into it.

CB: Nice. That is good. And you also announced events you’re doing later this year.

AC: Yeah. The one and only Gordon White and I have been cooking this up for a couple of months, and we’ve finally announced our North American event, As Above, which will be in Portland on September 14, and it is the companion to our Melbourne event last year, which was So Below. And so, As Above is basically a dialogue and a discussion between Gordon and I. That’s the first couple of hours, and then the next couple of hours is dinner and drinks, and then we have the venue until about two in the morning. So it is sort of a combination. It’s a combination of highly refined thinking—and talking, hopefully—about astrology, magic, paradigms, etc., etc., and food truck-based delicacies and open bar and occult warehouse party. It’s sort of all of these things at the same time. It was announced publicly, I think, maybe nine days ago, and we’re over 85% sold out already. So don’t dawdle. You can find more information about it at asabove2019.com. And so, that’s pretty exciting. It’s fun to unleash a master plan that you’ve been fiendishly crafting for a while. And the reception has been really good.

CB: That sounds great.

AC: It’ll be a night to remember. I hope to see you there.

CB: Yeah, that sounds great. So people can find out more information at asabove2019.com. It’s 85% sold out. So by the time most people listen to this, it’ll be completely sold out. So get your tickets soon if you’re interested in signing up. Speaking of sold out events, NORWAC is coming up. And NORWAC is completely sold out for the first time ever in history. And I actually got an email from the organizer, Laura, saying thanks, because she thinks a lot of that’s due to podcast listeners that are gonna show up this year. So we are doing a podcast event, as a pre-conference event at NORWAC, the day before it opens, just after the first set of pre-conferences. And we only have like 200 seats. So that actually might get sold out as well, so we wanted to give everyone a heads up. They should try to get there early if they plan on attending that. Right, Kelly?

KS: Absolutely, yes. We don’t have an official doors-open time, do we? Shall we say 8:00?

CB: The event is starting at 8:30, promptly, basically as soon as the ascendant moves into Sagittarius. So we don’t know when the door opening is. It’s gonna be at least by 8:30, but probably by 7:30. But yeah, people should get there early in order to be sure they can get a seat. And it’s taking place, what is the date again? It’s Thursday.

KS: November—May 23, sorry.

CB: Okay. In Seattle, at the NORWAC conference in one of the big rooms. I’m sure you’ll be able to find it once you get there, cuz a lot of people will be going there. And it’s a free event, so just come and join us if you’re a fan of the podcast. We’re gonna be doing a live Q&A. And we’re actually soliciting questions now if you’d like to submit a question ahead of time for our Q&A. We’re not gonna be able to answer all of them, of course, but we’ll answer as many of the more interesting ones as we can. So you can submit your question to us through Twitter. If you want to email me your question, astrologue@gmail.com. Yeah, or send them to Austin or Kelly, and they’ll send them to us at some point as well.

KS: Yeah, you could probably send them any of us. And I guess we’ll just create a Google Doc or something, Chris, and we can review.

CB: Yeah.

KS: Yeah.

CB: So Q&A. I think one of you said that we’ve never done a Q&A, all three of us together, right?

KS: I don’t think we have. Like I know Austin was saying we took a few questions after our live event at UAC, but that was just a few questions at the end. So I’m actually really excited for the three of us to get into it. Cuz the Q&A’s—they’re always great for provoking really good discussions, not that we need a lot of help with that. But we’ll have a little bit more room to roam in a live event, so that’ll be fun.

CB: Yeah, definitely. So send us your questions about astrology in general. I mean, what other—should we set topics? We’ll cover a wide range of topics. But should we give people any pointers about what would make a good question?

AC: It shouldn’t be a question about just your chart.

CB: Right.

KS: Yes.

CB: Only a question that relates to your chart.

KS: Yes, a question about a technique. Or, a question about something that might relate to more than just you is a really good question.

CB: Definitely. All right, cool. So that’s gonna be fun. And we look forward to seeing a lot of people at NORWAC in general. Kelly, you’re doing a post-conference, and I’m doing a post-conference. What’s your post-conference on?

KS: My post-conference is on Places of Ease and Pathways of Frustration, and it’s about going deeper with natal aspects.

CB: Brilliant. And you still have space left there? It’s not sold out yet?

KS: I don’t think I am. So yeah, if anyone’s interested in that, I would love to have you join us. And that’s on Monday, the 27th of May. And what’s yours called, Chris?

CB: Mine is on synthesizing modern and ancient astrology and sort of providing a blueprint for starting to do that, now that we have the revival of all these ancient traditions that are intermixing with all of these modern ones in the present time. So yeah, that’s my post-conference.

KS: Do you still have some space in yours, or is it full?

CB: I have no idea. I assume it’s full. If they let you buy tickets, and you wanna buy tickets, then give it a shot. If they don’t, then next time. All right, so that’s NORWAC. Looking forward to seeing everyone at the end of the month. Other news and announcements in terms of conferences. Kelly, you said something came up about SOTA?

KS: Oh, yeah. So the SOTA Facebook page has made the official announcement that the 2019 SOTA conference is canceled due to the organizer, Donna Van Toen, passing away late last year.

AC: Oh, right.

KS: So that was kind of expected, but obviously we hadn’t had any official word. But just in the last couple of weeks, they did make it clear that there won’t be a SOTA conference this year. Plans for 2020 are still up in the air, so we don’t have confirmation on that as yet. But the family is still just dealing with the emotional side of everything that’s been going on. So they weren’t ready to commit to 2020 yet, but they did say that there won’t be one for 2019.

CB: Okay. And in terms of 2020, though, there is a big conference that’s being planned, that I just got some front-row-front-seat access to this week because the entire board of the International Society for Astrological Research flew out here over the past week for board meetings and for conference planning. And they’re planning to host a huge, international conference here in Denver in September of 2020. So that’s coming up. It’s gonna be really great. It looks like it’s gonna be a great conference with a ton of speakers flying in from all over the world. They just completed their first round of speaker selection for that in voting, and picked their first 30 speakers. And yeah, I think you and I got it, right, Kelly?

KS: Yeah, I was really excited and quite surprised that I got in on the first go. So I’m thrilled. I’m so excited for such a big conference next year. And Chris, you’re there as well.

CB: Yeah, I made it in on the traditional track. So thanks to everybody who voted for me. It kind of sucked, cuz the traditional track got packed with a ton of big speakers. It was like me, Demetra, Lee Lehman, Austin, Leisa, Michael Ofek, and like two other people. So it was like that was the highest competition one and only the top three could get in. So I think they’re still gonna do other rounds of things, other rounds of speaker selection that’s in the process of happening now. And I’m making arrangements with them, and they’re gonna give us a space to do a large, free podcast event at this conference, as a pre-conference thing. So the three of us are gonna be there for sure doing that.

KS: Excellent.

CB: If you’re up for it. Actually, I should have run that by you first.

KS: Oh, I love that, Chris, yeah. I don’t know, I will be. What about you, Austin?

AC: Well, my talk wasn’t selected. So I’m gonna have to get over my feelings, which may involve bringing terrible devastation to the lives of all those who voted against me. That’s where I’m at now. We’ll see.

CB: It wasn’t selected yet. Wait for that.

KS: I mean, there are still multiple rounds, I think.

AC: Well, if anybody would like there to be any astrological magic content at the conference, mine is the only talk that was proposed that’s actually on astrological magic.

CB: What was the title, again?

AC: Well, it’s called Calling the Planets, and it’s comparing the verbal component of calling the planets in the Hygromanteia, in the Picatrix, and in Agrippa’s four books of occult philosophy, or three books.

CB: You and your poetic titles. What if people just misinterpreted it as like literally trying to call the planets and that was the issue?

KS: Crickets.

AC: Maybe it’s not for them then.

CB: Right. That could be the issue.

AC: It’s pretty literal.

KS: But Chris, sorry, Austin, you would have been on the traditional track, too, then, right?

AC: Yes.

KS: Cuz that was a very hard track to select speakers from, I will say right out of the gate. I wanted all of them to speak. Not all of them, but most of them to speak.

CB: Yeah, and that was what happened. And Leisa didn’t make it in on that track, and Michael Ofek didn’t make it in, and like one or two other people didn’t, so don’t feel bad. But there’s still time, so we’ll see what happens.

AC: So I’ll be in good company when we have our loser party.

CB: Yeah, yeah. But it is gonna be a good conference. So it’s a long ways away right now, but I’m looking forward to it. And I’ve been doing interviews. I got to steal some of the ISAR board members—like Kenneth Miller and Sam Reynolds—to do an interview that came out already this month, on the outer planets. And then there’s another interview I did with David Railey, who’s the vice president of ISAR, about his work in bringing modern Western astrology to China. And that’s gonna be one of the first episodes I release in May, that’s being edited right now.

KS: Fantastic.

AC: Interesting.

KS: I have to say I’m a little nervous because I did swing for the fence with my talk topic for ISAR, in that I went for a talk on progressions. And I had a random thought, “Oh, I’m gonna email Aaron, who’s my publisher, and say, ‘Can we get the book out by then? Because then I can do a talk on it.’”

CB: You pretty much have to get the book out by then.

KS: And now we have to.

CB: Okay.

KS: That’s just really putting the pressure on.

CB: Good. I like that. And the theme of the conference is the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction. The great conjunction that’s happening next year in 2020. And that’s something you guys have been researching and talking about a lot recently as well, right?

KS: Totally.

AC: The year in reference to that has been part of my yearly for the last several years. Cuz it’s such an important framing device for looking at, “What’s 2016 like? What’s 2018 like? What’s 2021 like?” There’s the nature of the year inside itself, but then there’s context. And that’s, I would say, our best and clearest single system which gives us context. And I’m giving my delayed talk on the Jupiter-Saturn cycle this coming Sunday, May 5, Cinco de Mayo. It was originally scheduled for the previous Sunday, but I ended up having to fly out and do family and funeral. And this’ll be the second time I’ve given the talk, so hopefully better. I think I learned a few things during the first one. People can sign up for that on my website, which is AustinCoppock.com. And even if you can’t make it live, if you sign up, you will get a digital copy, with a PowerPoint and my questionable voice and all that.

CB: Awesome.

AC: You know, I don’t have too much going on in May other than what I’ve already committed to. Lots of teaching, lots of readings, giving that talk, selling out As Above. And then the Venus in Pisces series that I elected for Sphere + Sundry is due to launch on May 2, and so, there’s that as well. And I am a fan. I am the primary beta tester for all of that stuff. Pleasing, indeed.

CB: Awesome.

KS: Super exciting.

CB: Kelly, did you do a Jupiter-Saturn talk as well or something?

KS: I did at the Astrology University 2020 Summit, which was mid-April. I had talked a little bit about the Jupiter-Saturn cycle in my year ahead talk because I do think—like you, Austin—it gives really good context. It sort of puts the whole Saturn-South Node-Pluto thing—it gives a framework for why that’s absolutely relevant given the major change with Jupiter and Saturn. So yeah, that talk is now available as part of the Access All Areas parts from the astrology summit via Astrology University. But yeah, Austin, you totally have to come to the ISAR conference because it’s likely that it’ll be my book launch, and you’ve been such a good supporter (a.k.a., kicking me up the proverbial) to get that done. So it wouldn’t be a book launch party without you there.

AC: Yeah, I’m sure I’ll be there.

KS: You guys will be there.

AC: I’m dramatizing my reaction to not being selected in the first round.

KS: Well, also, because Sphere + Sundry, I’m sure, will have a presence there with their beautiful wares.

AC: Maybe.

KS: Maybe. Okay.

AC: There’s not a whole lot of vending with Sphere + Sundry.

KS: No, that’s true.

AC: Maybe.

CB: All right.

AC: That is up to the proprietress. Although Sphere + Sundry will be vending for the first and only time so far at As Above.

KS: Yes.

AC: So a little icing on an already delicious layer cake.

KS: Layer cake.

AC: One type of cake being me, the other Gordon. Kait being the icing, I don’t know. So the question is, what kind of cake am I?

KS: Well, there’d be some chili in there, for sure.

AC: All right.

KS: But also, some buttercream.

AC: Yeah, definitely.

KS: Yeah.

AC: You can’t do Cancer rising without a little buttercream.

KS: Oh, my God. Not at all, you cannot.

AC: And so, this is sounding like the awkward combination I am in reality: chili and buttercream.

KS: And buttercream. But that sums up you, Austin.

AC: Yeah, well, it’s my job to figure out how to make that flavor profile work, I suppose.

KS: You’re doing a great job. I think we’re getting some confirmation here that Sphere + Sundry will only be vending at As Above by special request, and that’s it.

CB: Awesome. All right, so I think that’s all the news and announcements. We were gonna do a few topics—cuz we’ve got kind of a short timeframe for today—before we get into the forecast. Which one did you guys wanna talk on first? One of them that I know, Kelly, you had mentioned being a topic of interest was the episode I did in Episode 201, where we talked about dating astrologers as being a funny thing, since all three of us have different variations of that in common.

KS: Yeah, I don’t know. I thought it was such a great topic. I think I’ve listened to about the first half of that episode now, and I really enjoyed the discussion. I thought everybody made some beautiful points. Some of the points that Eugenia was making, around how she uses astrology very therapeutically, and then at the end of the day, she kind of likes to shut down, but her partner has a different approach. I really related to that, too. Cuz I find with my own work, I go through periods where I have really intense client-consulting periods where at the end of the day, I almost can’t read anything more in astrology because I’m deep in that more, I don’t know, client-consulting mindset, and then other periods where I’m researching or teaching, where I’m reading all the books. But even though I did meet my partner at a conference in Denver 2008, he is no longer really super into astrology. So we do have a little bit of an imbalance where I obviously know a lot about astrology and he knows a little bit, but there is a bit of a gap between the two of us. So I thought some of the points that were made in that podcast around when there is an imbalance of who knows what, like how you really hold that, that’s something that we do have to be really careful of.

CB: Yeah, your partner, Peter’s primary thing is tarot, right?

KS: It is, yeah. Yeah, he’s great with the tarot. Probably like most super Scorpio charts.

CB: That’s something at least. So it’s not like he’s not open to metaphysical stuff at all. He just does a different thing as his primary interest.

KS: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the points that I think was made in the podcast was how important it was to have that shared worldview or shared sort of orientation.

CB: Right.

KS: And that’s one thing. I think for Peter and I, this is probably the first time that we’ve had that in our romantic relationship, and it makes a huge difference.

CB: Okay. So you had been in previous relationships with non-astrologers while you were pursuing astrology as a career, or at least as a major interest in your life.

KS: Yes.

CB: And was that tough, or what?

KS: It’s kind of weird, yeah, I mean, my first serious boyfriend—who was the one I was with when I first was studying astrology—he was in the finance industry and much more of a dry personality type. So I didn’t really get that sense of respect from him around the value of astrology. And, I mean, that relationship didn’t last. I’m sure that was part of it. And then, yeah, I had another partner in between who was very accepting of it, but not into it and wouldn’t participate, where Peter and I will often do things around wheel of the year festivals. You know, we have tarot card art, and we have astrological planetary stuff sort of all around the house, and some of it’s his and some of it’s mine. So even though the specifics are a little different, that interest and that sort of understanding from that esoteric perspective is definitely shared.

CB: Yeah, that really helps then. And then, Austin, your partner was already studying astrology before you guys met. Didn’t I meet Kaitlin before you did?

AC: You did.

CB: Okay.

AC: You met her before I did.

CB: She was studying at Kepler College. So was that your first relationship with another astrologer?

AC: No, no. I’d dated people before that were into astrology.

CB: Okay. Had you ever not?

AC: Before I was into astrology. You know, I went so hard into astrology and made it such a focal point of my life, so early—and it still is—that if you’re not really interested in astrology, I’m really boring to hang out with.

CB: Right.

AC: You know, it’s not that I won’t make an effort to have non-astrological conversation with people, but it’s been at the center of my life for not quite, but almost 20 years. And so, I think part of the way that worked is I wasn’t very interested if you didn’t think astrology was very interesting.

CB: Right. I mean, isn’t that ultimately the issue with an astrologer dating a non-astrologer, or in terms of tension? It’s not that the astrologer necessarily considers the non-astrologer uninteresting, it’s almost like the reverse. That you look tremendously uninteresting, or you’re not doing something worthwhile if you’re devoting all your time to astrology, if you didn’t have any interest in it or think it was a valid subject on some level.

AC: Yeah. Yeah, I think that it’s different when people have been together for a while and one of them gets bitten by the astrology bug and that’s a thing to adapt to, rather than just presented at the very beginning and part of the dynamic from the very beginning. You know, what I would say is that with Kait and I both being students of astrology, from before the beginning, it’s helped in countless conversations and moments. You know, the more one understands themselves, the better partner they are. The more you understand your partner, the better a partner you can be. And that’s natal, but it’s also transit. “I’m mad about this. Oh, yeah, the Moon is on my Mars by degree. Let me see how I feel in like three hours.” Or, “Let me come back to this and see if there’s a similar level of heat,” right? And knowing your partner’s transits, just simple Moon stuff, as well as the more sophisticated methods. I think people get into a mode where there’s one thing that they’re unhappy about, that’s happening at a particular time, or one thing that they absolutely love, and then they tend to imagine that that’s the whole relationship. “Well, I can’t possibly live with this if this is the way it’s gonna be.” Whereas astrology shows you that both you and your partner are in very specific phases at any given moment, and that they’re doing this part of their chart for this day, this month, this decade, and you’re doing this other part of your chart, you know.

KS: Yeah.

AC: The chart is big enough that it takes a whole life or more to unpack in its totality. And having a consistent reminder and timing tool for that keeps you from just focusing on this one thing and thinking that’s all there is, which people get stuck in.

KS: Yeah, definitely provides a really great context or framework for understanding, and it can help with a little bit of compassion. And as you said, Austin, it can dial down some of the reactiveness as well.

CB: Have you guys had drawbacks, though, or issues where you found astrology was not productive or was counter-productive in a relationship, or created unique problems, let’s say, that you wouldn’t have if you were two non-astrologers?

AC: I don’t think that’s happened.

CB: Kelly?

KS: Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing for us will be that sometimes there’ll be something going on, where we’re dealing with some drama or something together. Not necessarily between us, but something we might be just dealing with because that’s what we’re dealing with at the time. And I’ll sort of be like, “Oh, that’s because this thing is doing that thing in my husband’s chart,” or “That’s because this is happening to me.” And it’s like, “Oh, okay, we’ve just gotta get through it.” But I sometimes forget to tell him that, and he’ll be getting a lot more stressed out about it. I’m like, “Oh, I’ve gotta tell you that it’s just this thing. Let’s just give it a couple of days, and it’s not gonna be as rough as it seems right now.” And that’s just where each of us having a different connection to astrology comes in.

CB: Okay. Well, that sounds pretty mild. I mean, you guys then have not had the joys of being in a relationship where you guys have completely different approaches to, let’s say, house division or sign rulership, or one of you is a Vedic astrologer and the other’s like into Chinese astrology or something extreme like that.

KS: No.

CB: Those are some of the most hilarious relationship fights that you have ever experienced, and I feel a little bit bad if neither of you have ever had to experience that.

KS: Have you experienced that, Chris?

CB: Yeah, I was in a relationship once where I was using whole sign houses, and one of the things she said was she really just hated whole sign houses passionately. And we had different languages, but one of the things she said was whole sign houses ‘is the devil’, one of the things she said at one point in an argument. And this was not a healthy relationship. So I’m not gonna play this off as if it was a great thing to begin with. But astrologers having arguments about vastly differing approaches—like technical approaches—is not something that I’ve heard. That’s uncommon when it comes to astrologers sometimes dating. Cuz I’ve heard of a traditional astrologer dating a modern astrologer, or somebody that does Vedic and sidereal dating a tropical astrologer. Cuz normally you would think, if you’re both astrologers, you’re both coming at it from the same perspective, and you have some shared worldview that creates a connection between you, which is true to some extent. But in fact, if there’s major technical differences between you, then it’s like your actual worldviews and perceptions of yourself and each other sometimes come into conflict in hilarious ways that you wouldn’t anticipate until you’re actually in that situation.

KS: Yeah. I mean, I sort of can imagine, but I also can’t, cuz I haven’t been in it. But it would have been more difficult to be in a relationship with someone who was in astrology, but had a totally different technical basis to you than someone who just wasn’t in astrology at all.

CB: Right. And that’s actually a legitimate question. Cuz you can get to that point, given the relationship, depending on the relationship, and depending on the temperament of the people involved.

KS: Yeah. Super interesting.

CB: Anyway, good times. So that was one topic that we thought about touching on in the pre-show chat. Other topics—one of the things that came up is this article is being passed around about somebody in Portland who was renting out a room and rejected a candidate because they were a Capricorn or something like that, which is funny. And that’s the actual reaction that a lot of the astrologers have, just like that’s dumb and kind of funny. But actually it got picked up by The Guardian and a bunch of other news sites—like respectable news sites—as an instance of people using astrology to discriminate or basically for discriminatory purposes. And that actually made me really nervous, and I had a stronger negative reaction to it, of feeling like we needed to call that out publicly as not really being cool on some level. Because I think it feeds into a false narrative that has become much more common over the past decade in skeptic circles, where they’re trying to take this line of argumentation that astrology is inherently discriminatory. That it’s not just false, but it’s false and it’s discriminatory because it leads people to make prejudices or prejudgments against people before they’ve met them, and therefore, is evil in some way. And little things like this—even though it’s stupid and whatever, is kind of funny—may have a deeper, underlying societal issue if things like that start adding up, and people start actually thinking that astrology is used for prejudice.

KS: Yeah. I almost feel like when you hear these things, it just shows the lack of understanding about the complexity of astrology. And it reminds me of the question that sometimes I’ll get from students—sometimes even from clients who are newer to astrology—where they sort of wanna know like, “What sign should I be looking for to date from a relationship perspective?” And it’s sort of like I can understand where that question comes from, but the question itself is faulty because there’s so much more to it. Well, Capricorn’s pretty responsible. If you were just doing Sun sign astrology, they seem like a flat mate that would be relatively tidy and maybe pay the rent on time. So I’m not actually sure why you would reject them, but they’ve obviously got understanding or bias. Maybe they’ve dated a Capricorn they didn’t like, so they just think all Capricorns are bad. And that frustrates me so much when people make those blanket statements.

CB: Well, one thing that was a little weird is it may not have been just a purely Sun sign-oriented thing. Because the actual screenshot of the text message said something about this being, “a mutable household where we’re all mutable placements, and we want the free-flowing” whatever nature that they’re associating with that. And they didn’t want some stern Capricorn coming in, and they said, “dom-ming the house” or something like that. Yeah, so it might have actually been slightly more intermediate-something astrology behind it. And I don’t know if that actually makes it better or worse. Like saying that to a non-astrologer, it just comes off as kind of tasteless at the very least. I don’t know. Why did you guys both laugh at it when you heard about it? Like what’s your initial reaction when hearing this story? Austin? What is your response?

AC: My initial response was laughter. I can analyze why I thought it was funny. The analysis did not come before the reaction.

CB: Yeah, and I’m not attacking it or something. I’m just curious why every astrologers’ response to it is laughing, and if we could articulate why that is for somebody that doesn’t know.

KS: Can we put it into words?

AC: Why is that funny? I don’t know. I don’t have an explanation for that. A clear explanation for that, that would be sensible to all, does not come to mind.

CB: Okay. What do you think, Kelly?

KS: I think it’s a simplistic view. To my mind, it seems like somebody’s picked a random piece of information—like the Sun is in Capricorn—and made a blanket judgment based on that.

CB: Okay.

KS: And to my mind, when you’re looking for a flat mate, there’s a bunch of other criteria. But they’ve just projected stuff about Capricorns onto this person, and this person is probably so much more than just that and may have all sorts of other qualities that could make them a great flat mate. I think you laugh, but also, you feel a bit sad that people get blatantly rejected because of something that is important, but not the whole of who they are. And there’s some discrimination there, maybe.

CB: Sure. So then it leads to the broader question of, is astrology inherently discriminatory, or is that a misuse of astrology? And is that why it’s funny? Because then we’re just laughing at that’s kind of a dumb use of astrology, because it’s actually much more complicated than that. And just to reject somebody based on their Sun sign or something like that is so—

AC: Well, let me just say the over-simplicity of it is part of the humor. Just like picking a sign and being like, “Yeah, fuck Geminis,” right? I don’t know. There’s just something funny about that. It’s silly.

CB: Shakira in the chat says: “The person actually made a really long and thought-out response and apology about that, that was an interesting read.” I’d been wondering if those people understood what was happening. They must have seen all the media response to it, so I was curious if it was an actual astrologer or what. Could you share where that was? Cuz that’s kind of interesting. I’d be curious to read that.

AC: Well, so, to get to the central point, which is, ‘is astrology discriminatory’, if we take discrimination, not in the legal/illegal sense, but in the proper meaning of the term, does it allow a person to tell the difference between one thing and another, and then to choose between those things? Well, if it didn’t do that, then there would be no point in studying it. You know, the central supposition of electional astrology, for example, is that some times are more fortunate for some things. The central idea behind synastry, or the relationship between charts, is that some configurations between charts facilitate harmony and growth more effectively than others, right? And if we were to take this ‘no Capricorns need apply’ thing and develop it to the point of a full astrological technique, let’s say it was like, “Oh, okay, I don’t want somebody with a badly-afflicted 2nd and 4th house,” because that’s going to affect living situation and also may speak negatively to their ability to do their part in domestic labor, as well as come up with the rent money and their part of the internet bill. And if that can be seen in a chart, is that then discriminatory? I mean, it is discriminating. It’s choosing one person over another, but those are all astrological ways of addressing the criteria that would be immediately relevant to a living partner, right? So I think the better phrasing of the question, or another way to look at it, would it be okay to do that—if astrology’s full tools were brought to bear—in a way that was most likely quite accurate?

CB: Right. So what you’re bringing then—or not what you’re bringing up. But part of what I’m getting from what you’re saying—that brings something more to the crux of the underlying issue—is that astrology sometimes is used. And part of the purpose is partially to try to use it to infer what will happen in the future before an action has actually been taken, or to infer what kind of actions a person might take.

AC: Yeah, or what kind of patterns a person will tend to enact over time.

CB: Sure. But then the point still would be—or part of the issue would still be that if the person hasn’t done that action yet, you’re still making a sort of prejudgment ahead of time. And in some instances, you might be wrong, that the person might not end up taking that specific action, given a certain scenario. Or the things that you’re taking as indicators, as potentialities, may not end up manifesting in that precise way. In some ways, you can’t fully know until you’re in the actual scenario that you’re talking about, right? I mean, is every prediction that you’ve ever made or every assumption you’ve ever made about a person, based on their chart, always been correct?

AC: Well, no. So whenever a person is, say, choosing a roommate, the whole game is predicting the future as best you can, and pick it, right?

CB: Right.

AC: And so, the goal is to discriminate between, of the people who apply, who will be the best roommate based on the tools that I have for seeing into their past in a way that would predict the future, as well as intuition about a person, little cues, etc., etc. Everybody who’s interviewing roommates is already in that game. And so, if you have a good track record with astrology, you might not talk about it, but you probably would do that. Would you not look at the chart of a potential roommate?

KS: I mean, there’s a couple of points here. Like, Austin, what you’re offering—well, not necessarily what you’re offering. But what you’re sort of suggesting is a more nuanced and deep work of astrology. I think one of the reasons that I had sort of that funny reaction is just to make an assumption like that based off a Sun sign placement, you don’t even know what’s going on with the 2nd or the 4th or what have you. So it’s maybe an inaccurate or ineffective or a superficial use of astrology. I don’t know. It annoys me, but you do see it all the time. And then I think, absolutely, astrology’s a tool to help you choose, and of course you’re gonna wanna choose the best for you in a situation. You can’t always get a perfect solution, though. So sometimes you are gonna have to deal with a flat mate or a person that isn’t ideal, doesn’t have the best chart, and there can be some negotiation skills or some compromise skills. You know, there can be some sort of learning or growth that happens by being in a situation that isn’t as ideal as you might like it to be.

CB: Right. Yeah, I mean, I understand your general point. And that’s actually a good point, Austin, and it’s a point Leisa had made as well, which is astrology is one of many different heuristic devices that people use in order to make assessments about things, especially if you’re doing something like that, which is sort of like an interview about, “Do I wanna live with this person or have them in my home?” or what have you. I guess it’s just there’s some sort of balance there that’s not well-defined in the astrological community today, of like what’s an okay application of astrology versus when would things be going too far. I haven’t watched this yet, but a lot of people have been citing some television episode of some SyFy television show that apparently did something on this recently, where they had a show about a whole society that used astrology as part of creating different caste systems or different things like that, and this sort of extreme scenario of what if society fully embraced it and used it to categorize people in ways that were maybe overly-restrictive or not healthy. And I guess that’s part of the underlying question. At what point would it be a misapplication, which would verge on something that we might more closely associate with prejudice or racism in a negative sense versus what is the constructive, positive application of it? And I’m not saying there’s a good answer to that now.

AC: One very simple answer to that is there should never be legislation that privileges or disadvantages people based on their charts. On a very simple level that should absolutely never happen.

CB: So it should never be put into law. So then that raises the question then that was raised in The Guardian article, which is that, technically, something like this is not illegal right now. Like filtering somebody based on their birth chart is not something that’s covered by anti-discrimination laws. But then, should it be, or could it be at some point? Cuz then we get into the legal angle as well. Anyway, I’m not saying there’s any good answers to this, but mainly just raising the discussion since one of the feelings I have is this is not gonna be the last time we see headlines stating ‘astrology used for discriminatory purposes’, and some newspapers and things like, “Aha! This confirms that astrology is primarily just a form of prejudice and here’s an example of it,” because I’ve seen this argument. It’s a relatively new argument, but it’s one that skeptics have been getting more loud about, I’ve noticed, over the past decade or so. So I think that it’s gonna be one of the angles that they use in order to convince people, not just that astrology’s wrong, but also, that it’s somehow evil in some way. Which I don’t personally believe, but I’m interested in how astrologers would respond to, and if they can provide a sufficient, compelling response to accusations like that. All right, well, that’s all I’ve got on that topic. There’s a lot of stuff coming in on the chat. So were there any other topics that we meant to touch on, as pre-show stuff, before we get into the forecast?

AC: Let’s see. Do we have anything else? Well, I don’t think we have time for anything else anyway.

CB: I mean, we’re 45 minutes in.

KS: Yeah, I feel like we probably should get to the forecast itself. Just so we can take our time with that.

AC: Take a leisurely stroll through the Sun’s time in Taurus.

KS: Through the Taurus time.

AC: I mean, we’ll speed up at the end for Gemini.

KS: We will have to go much faster, starting May 21.

CB: All right, so let’s get into the forecast for the month of May then. Let me pull up the Solar Fire chart, so that we can see the actual astrology for the month. Here we go. Can you guys see that?

KS: We can now, loud and clear.

CB: Brilliant. So this is the chart set for May 1, 2019, sometime in the afternoon, here in Denver. It looks like we start out the month with Mars in Gemini, where it’s gonna spend a decent portion of the month before eventually moving into Cancer. The Sun is of course moving through Taurus most of the month of May. Saturn has recently stationed retrograde in Capricorn, as has Pluto. And Jupiter has not long ago stationed retrograde in Sagittarius. So what are the highlights? Do we wanna go chronologically or in terms of the highlights for the month?

KS: I’m easy. Do you have a preference, Austin?

AC: Let’s go chronologically.

KS: Okay. Keep us on track.

AC: Let’s stroll.

CB: Okay.

KS: Take it all in.

CB: So I see that Mercury starts off in Aries. But it’s moving very fast at this point, and it’s not gonna spend super long in that sign. And it looks like we have a New Moon that takes place just a few days into the month, in Taurus, right?

KS: Yes.

AC: On May 4.

KS: Saturday, May 4.

CB: May 4, okay. So New Moon in Taurus at 14° of Taurus. This is our first New Moon, I think, since Uranus has moved into Taurus. So that’s, yeah, nice. Any other comments about this New Moon?

KS: For sure. Do you wanna start, Austin?

AC: Sure. I mean, like any New Moon—which is the joining of the Sun and Moon in a particular sign and place—it re-centers things. You know, the New Moon is the time to do that pivot between letting go of what you’ve been doing and picking up what you need to be ready for in the next cycle. You know, it’s an adjustment period. It’s a transition period. It’s an end/beginning. And so, here we’re re-centering in Taurus, right? In the dead center of Taurus, which one might argue is the ‘Taurus-iest’ part of Taurus. Although Mercury and Venus are in Aries, Venus being the ruler of Taurus is of special importance. This gives just a little bit more fire, right, than a raw Taurus archetype. You know, there’s still a focus—when you’re dealing with Taurus—with pacing and making sure that your recovery is equal to your efforts, right? You know, Aries is sprinting, where you go as fast as you can and you worry about recovery later. But Taurus always comes after Aries, right? You can’t sprint through a whole season. And even though there’s still a little bit of speed put on this first part of May, with the planets in Aries and the Mars in Gemini, the New Moon in Taurus is certainly a reminder to check your pace and to make sure that, again, your leisure recovery has a thoughtful relationship to your exertion.

KS: Yeah, that’s really well-put, Austin. And I had focused in as well on the New Moon in Taurus, ruled by Venus in Aries. So there is some contrast or tension between the ‘go slow, take your time, breathe it out’ Taurus versus Venus in Aries, which is quite fast-paced. Although at the time of the New Moon, Venus is moving into a square with Saturn in Capricorn. So I thought that was a really nice combination around this New Moon prompting maybe fresh effort or renewed effort (Venus in Aries) towards a longer-term project or goal as represented by the Saturn in Capricorn. And it may be that this New Moon sort of marks the realization that an adjustment is required. Because I always find a square aspect tends to indicate where there’s some tension, where we can’t quite keep going as we are. We need to tweak things, or we need to just refine either what we’re doing or how we’re going about what we’re trying to achieve. And so, it’s not quite as simple, I think as you were saying, too, Austin. You know, you have the New Moon in Taurus with Venus in Pisces or Venus in Virgo and it’s gonna have a totally different tone. So there is still some activity, but I think that idea of measuring the effort, but also, thinking about it as more of a marathon rather than a sprint, which we get from the Taurus energy and Venus in aspect to Saturn.

AC: Yeah, I think the Venus-Saturn square is really an important point. You know, that Venus-Saturn square may indicate that there is a need to do another little push, another little sprint, but against the background of pacing, right? Like, yeah, I need to sprint. I need to push a little bit more here, but that’s not what I’m doing for the next several weeks. That’s something I need to do, right, to finish up a lot of last month’s stuff. Or finish up things that need just that little bit more to get across the finish line.

CB: One of the things that’s interesting about this—since this is the first New Moon in Taurus since Uranus went into this sign—is sometimes you have the question about, so Uranus has gone into a new, for example, whole sign house for everybody, in everybody’s chart. And for some people, you’ll start seeing changes in that house sooner, and for other people, it might be later, depending on if they have any fixed sign placements earlier in the sign or later in the sign that are gonna get hit by Uranus exactly at some point. But for some people with this New Moon taking place—or this being the first New Moon in the sign since Uranus’ ingress—I think we’re gonna start to see some new developments and some people, laying the seeds for some of the changes indicated by Uranus really starting to grow after this point compared to the past month or two that Uranus has been in that sign. So a new beginning, but specifically tied in with some of the disruptions and the detours indicated by Uranus now moving through that signs over the course of the next decade.

AC: Yeah, and that’s really double-downed on by what happens over the ensuing days. Because I believe it’s on Monday, the 6th, Mercury moves into Taurus and spends the next several days in conjunction with Uranus, right? And so, I think part of what you’re gonna see there is, one, just the standard disruptions and revelations coming in on a mercurial level. That’s new thinking. It’s also disruptive for communication, blah, blah, blah, all that standard stuff. But it’s also bringing the mind, or bringing the ‘intellective’ mind to thinking about the Uranus in Taurus stuff that’s already happened over the last month-and-a-half, which is going to help bring to fruition some of those mutations, which are planted but pending. And then the week afterwards, Venus will do the same and conjoin Uranus. So we have Mercury and Venus, in a sense, playing catch-up with the Sun and hitting Uranus after the Sun. And that’ll continue to develop whatever those Uranian events/signatures/significations/mutations were planted by the New Moon in Taurus.

CB: Right. Yeah, I love that. Cuz then eventually Venus ingresses and goes in there and conjoins Uranus as well, around the time of the Full Moon in Scorpio later in the month.

KS: Yeah.

CB: So it’s really interesting. Cuz we always get this once a year, where it’s like the Sun goes through Taurus and the Mercury goes through around the same time, and then Venus eventually catches up or goes through within a month or two of that as well, and it’s just sort of a regular, recurring thing. But we have this tonal shift now that’s happening for the first time in any of our lifetimes, where we have this other outer planet sitting in that sign, sort of disrupting the normal flow of that. Or at least causing a tonal shift in what it’s like for each of those planets to go through that sign in some sense.

AC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Taurus is different territory for the next while.

CB: And both of you are doing consultations frequently, still. Are you already seeing some of the shifts come up in clients’ charts, with Uranus going through Taurus?

AC: Yeah, I would say that that is number two. Uranus’ shift is the number two culprit for stuff worth talking about. The main thing is that South Node-Saturn-Pluto.

KS: Yeah.

AC: It’s just like maybe two-thirds of the consultations I’ve done this year, what the client wants to talk about is anchored to Saturn-South Node-Pluto. But number two, Uranus.

CB: Okay. What have you seen, Kelly?

KS: Yeah, definitely seen those two themes come through, for sure. And I’m just thinking—it’s sort of the individual nuances about what topics or what areas of life, but also, what internal landscape the individual is meeting those transits with, depending on some of their progressed placements and cycles. So they are the big themes, transit-wise, for the year, the South Node-Saturn-Pluto, Uranus into Taurus. I have had some clients this year who are dealing with the Neptune in Pisces piece. So for people who’ve got important chart factors and maybe—I don’t necessarily quite think about in a numbered way, as you have Austin, but they are definitely the themes. I mean, I was joking with a student last week. They were sort of asking, “How do you move through the ephemeris so quickly?” And I sort of was just saying, “Because I’m in it everyday. And then because of this Saturn station.” I’ve got the dates of Saturn at 20° Capricorn memorized because I’ve been repeating them in client sessions for the last six-to-nine months, to clients who have planets or angle points, chart factors around that 20° of any of the cardinal signs. It’s like, okay, we’re doing the Saturn dance, and these are the dates and this is the territory.

CB: Right. And you mentioned the ephemeris, which is funny, cuz that was the other story that we skipped over at least. Now that makes me realize that story must have been particularly triggering for you, Kelly, whether familiarity, let’s say, with an ephemeris is a necessary prerequisite to be an astrologer is the broader question.

KS: I mean, one thought I had once we started recording live, clearly, our ongoing discussions on the podcast about how important this book is, and why everyone should have one, we’re just not saying that often enough or loud enough. That’s what I’ve taken from this.

CB: That’s a good takeaway?

KS: I need to say that more.

CB: I like that, yeah, yeah. Or maybe not everyone listens to the podcast, I don’t know.

KS: I mean, that is a possibility.

CB: And I don’t wanna keep having to play devil’s advocate, but for the sake of playing devil’s advocate, I wanted to say that what if, over the past two decades, we’ve moved into a period where knowing how to calculate a chart by hand, for example, is not a necessary prerequisite to be or to call yourself an astrologer? Have we actually reached a point where even knowledge of an ephemeris—while useful and something that we love, clearly, and think is a very useful too—is not necessarily a prerequisite in this day and age, where everybody is just calculating charts on websites or with apps or what have you?

AC: So I think that’s a great question. And I think that what is important is that you should know what the planets are doing and what they plan on doing. And an ephemerides, or an ephemeris, is a way of knowing that. You should have knowledge, right? Like Planet Watcher gives a person knowledge of where the planets are. It’s a digital, visual ephemeris, but it’s an ephemeris. You know, I would prefer people know that word. But if I have to choose, I would definitely prefer they have the knowledge of what the planets are doing and what they’re going to do. And whatever particular tool they are using to obtain that knowledge is way less important to me than if they have that knowledge, cuz that’s what we need as astrologers.

CB: Right. I mean, cuz Solar Fire, for example, or astro.com, is an ephemeris. It’s based on the Swiss ephemeris. It shows planetary positions, and you can look up where they were in the past and where they will be in the future. So then are we at a stage then where that’s sufficient? Because you’re basically using a computerized ephemeris that shows it to you in segments or that you can animate versus just having in book form.

AC: I don’t think that a list is superior to an animatable, clickable visual display. A visual display—like Planet Watcher or like you can animate a chart in Solar Fire—lets you see everything at once, and lets you see rates of relative movement. I would say when possible, when you have that, that’s a tool that gives you more information. It’s a superior form of arranging the information. But you don’t always that handy. And so, having it in book form is super handy, too.

CB: Sure.

KS: Yeah, that’s a beautiful point, Austin. And I agree with you. I think as long as people understand the way the planet’s cycle works—that it can be at 1° today, and it can be back there again three months later or six months later—that’s really critical. And if you have access to software that is gonna animate that for you—and you’ve got the patience, and you take the time to go through it day by day or week by week, depending on which planet you’re looking at—you will get the same information, for sure.

CB: Do you wanna defend, though, the pro-ephemeris position, Kelly?

KS: I know that my preference for a book ephemeris is partly a personal thing, in that I’m a massive paper person, and I like to feel something in my hand. I like to use a pen on a piece of paper. And so, that’s how I like to learn. I do like a little bit of the hands-on manual. From a teaching perspective, I have found that students who take the time to work through the paper ephemeris, they can sort of plot or follow the planets partly in a way that there’s a clarity to it. But I also know that some learners are much more visual, and they would definitely prefer to see the diagram wheel, or even to see those transit map grid things. But, look, I mean, I think I’m on my third version of 21st century ephemeris right now. I completely acknowledge it’s my personal preference, but I do recommend it. I think there’s a lot you can get from it. You know, when I teach progressions, it’s a really great tool. And I encourage students—whether they buy the book—you don’t have to spend money on it because the Swiss ephemeris is available free online. You can just Google ‘Swiss ephemeris’ and the year that you need, whether it’s 2019, 2020, and you can just print off six sheets and have your ephemeris. So the information is definitely, definitely there. But yeah, I mean, I do favor the paper, but I acknowledge that that’s partly personal preference.

CB: Sure, sure. I mean, there’s something about being able to open a book and see a hundred years, at a glance, of planetary movements that’s kind of useful. Not a requirement, but it’s certainly a different perspective on the planetary movements and maybe gives you more insight into them than you might have otherwise.

AC: I’ll throw a point out for defending the paper ephemeris. If you’re going to bill yourself as a professional astrologer, the implication is that you are an expert. It’s not just that you know something about astrology. Many people know something. Then knowing what a printed ephemeris is, and being able to use it—if that is where the information is available and not other places—I would set that as a bare minimum requirement, that’s a very low bar.

CB: It is a low bar, that’s true. I guess when the story came up—and I don’t wanna get too much into the story itself—part of me felt a little defensive over the person because I wasn’t sure if we’d entered an era where maybe knowing what a table of houses is, is not a requirement for being an astrologer and knowing how to calculate a chart is not a requirement for being an astrologer at this point, or astronomically or literally knowing the astronomy underlying what you’re doing. Because astrology is primarily an interpretive art, our primary litmus test for an astrologer is ‘can they interpret a chart effectively’, I think we would all agree, maybe above anything else, right?

AC: Mm-hmm. I would agree with that. Kelly?

KS: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, when I’m teaching my students, I always say the process to get to a chart interpretation, you first have to gather some data. You have to gather what is in the birth chart—this planetary placement or this aspect or this planetary condition. Then you have to kind of synthesize or order the data. In the context of this chart, it’s a night chart. The stuff going on with the Moon is more important than maybe the stuff going on with the Sun. So you do have to do a little bit of data management before you get to the interpretive piece. The bulk of our work as astrologers is interpretation. That’s where we do the heavy lifting. We translate the language of the sky into something accessible for people who may not be studied in this form. So it is interpretive, but to do good interpretations you have to do good data wrangling beforehand, I guess.

CB: Sure. I guess the question is, just at this point, what’s the bare minimum in terms of data wrangling that you should be able to do? Cuz that was one of the debates I saw some of the older astrologers having over the past 20 years, especially like 20 years ago or 10 years ago. Like in Holden’s book, he has this offhand comment where he talks about how most astrologers have just become like advanced computer users at this point. Because all you need to know to calculate a chart is just how to enter the birth data and then it calculates it for you, and you don’t need to know the underlying astronomy behind the chart, but it just raises a really interesting issue. And that’s something that I think about that comes up in instances like this, just the broader debate, that’s like this eternal debate within the astrological community, which is, what are the criteria for being able to call yourself an astrologer? And because of the lack of standardized testing or certification in the field that’s been a debate for like decades at this point because there’s no clear answer to that question necessarily.

KS: Well, we can all give our own answers, but the thing is everyone defines that for themselves. I guess it’s a self-defined or self-regulated thing.

CB: Yeah, that’s a better way of putting it. Sorry, I didn’t mean to say there’s no answer, but many people have different answers and define that in different ways to themselves. Some people, for example, say you have to have certification from an organization or from a school, for example. Did any of you guys—did you get certification?

KS: Yeah, I ticked all the boxes.

CB: What did you get?

KS: I’m certified by the FAA in Australia.

CB: Okay.

KS: Even calculated charts by hand. But that’s also partly my age because I didn’t have a computer when I first started studying astrology. And partly that’s my age, but also the fact that I’m a tech idiot. I would not have been an early adopter. Computers existed, but I wouldn’t have had one. So yeah, I have the FAA practitioner level certification. It’s comparable—I mean, I don’t wanna compare it actually to the training centers offered in America. There are three very comprehensive essays, and then there is a mathematics calculation exam that you have to pass.

CB: Yeah. I mean, that’s probably comparable to the NCGR certification or something.

KS: Yeah. And do you guys have any certification? Or more like self-taught? I know many people are.

AC: You know, so I said ‘nope’. But then I guess I did get some certification through Freedom Cole’s class as far as that particular lineage and school, thought, as being officially a Jyotishi. So I guess I do have that. I didn’t really think about that. That was just sort of a nice side effect of me studying things in a more formal context. But no, I didn’t go through a certification program, it was self-study. And then Project Hindsight material had a huge impact on me, but I haven’t gone through a program. And I also think, if we’re talking about certification, everybody who teaches, if they’re not just doing classes, like, “Yeah, I’ll teach you how to do profections,” or “Yeah, I’ll teach you. Let’s talk about synodic cycles (or whatever it is).” If there’s a teaching program that offers a stamp of approval at the end, then there are always standards. Good lord, I hope there are always standards, right? So Kelly, if you are asked whether you would publicly rubber stamp or maybe signet-ring stamp—a cooler stamp—someone as ‘this person is ready to be a professional’, you would be like, “Okay, well, they definitely need to know this, this, this, this, and this.” I would feel the same. I’m sure Chris would feel the same. Certification is interesting because it ties into questions of lineage, right? Because a good lineage always has certification. And that’s why it’s useful to study with somebody who’s, let’s say, four generations down because you know there’s been a quality control, and it wasn’t just like four generations of people that kind of knew each other, right? You’re assuming that great-grandma in that tradition made sure that grandma knew her shit, and that grandma made sure mom knew her shit, and that mom made sure you knew your shit, you know. And so, there is the institutional certification issue and question, but then there’s also that within lineages. And could I have y’all’s permission to go on a two-minute rant. Here, I know I’ve been talking.

CB: Just keep in mind that we have 45 minutes left before we’re at two hours. We’re at 1-hour-and-15 right now.

AC: Okay.

KS: I’d love to hear your rant, Austin.

AC: Okay, it’s a relevant rant. It’s not about how I hated the tacos I got the other day. Although they were decidedly mediocre. So I’ve just been thinking a lot about lineage. I was doing a reading for a client the other day, and I’ll use my Hellenistic and my modern and my Vedic in reading. I use all my tools. Some conversations are all one, all the other. And I just mentioned something about, “In the tradition of Vedic that I’ve been studying (and I can’t speak for everything that’s happened on that subcontinent) we do this.” And he was just like, “Man, lineage sure is nice. Like being able to learn from people rather than having to start from scratch.” He was like, “I wish we had that with some of these Western traditions.” And I was like, “Yeah, that would be nice.” But one part of my Jupiterian reframe/reflex on that was that with volcanic eruption/recovery of all these core texts, the entire history of the astrology that went West from Alexandria, I feel like we’re in an era where people will look back and see a number of lineages beginning now. Like there are people who are teaching and studying now who will pass on, and their students will pass on, and in 150 years, people will look back at this time as when lineages began. And that’s both exciting and I think a more positive way to look at ‘we don’t have any of that, it sucks’. And so, that’s my point.

CB: Yeah, it’s a nexus where a bunch of the older lineages are being restarted again and then reconnected with a lot of the living, modern lineages. Cuz, actually, I mean, to be honest, though, the modern lineages exist.

AC: That’s fair.

CB: Any modern astrologer who’s alive and practicing today, they have both books, as well as often teachers that they learned from. And even if they didn’t take a lot from that person or that singular book, even if they didn’t emulate that system completely, they were still influenced by it in some way.

AC: Yeah. Well, and let me clarify. This conversation arose when we were talking about traditional Western and Hellenistic. And so, we don’t have like three generations of practitioners who’ve been zodiacal releasing for all of the 20th century. You know, we don’t have any grandparents to learn from with that. You know, that’s been, “Okay, so Valens says this. Let’s all experiment and compare findings.”

CB: Or another one that’s interesting is the horary lineage—the traditional horary lineage that was revived in the UK in the 1980s, because there was an original core group of that. Olivia Barclay pushes to get Lilly reprinted in the mid-1980s. It’s reprinted, and she starts teaching the Qualifying Horary Practitioners Course, or whatever it’s called. The QHP. And she has a number of students. And that first generation of students included John Frawley, Deborah Houlding, Lee Lehman, and one or two—actually several others. But those are just, let’s say, three examples. And then, for example, from those you have students. Like Lee taught, for example, what’s his name? Kevin Burk. So Kevin Burk would then represent another generation that came after, a third generation. And then Kevin Burk has gone on to having students. Or you have Deb Houlding, and she’s taught students like—or, no. Actually, backing up, Christopher Warnock was a student of Lee Lehman. He’s like a third generation, and he’s gone on to teach other students and so on and so forth. So even in the recent traditional revival—which is relatively sudden—we’re already seeing second- and third- and fourth-generation students coming out of that in terms of those specific lineages.

AC: Yeah. Again, it’s starting up again. But one thing I will say, though—and this is not an insult to any of the people mentioned or in parallel situations. But there has been—while this stuff has been passing—huge new material translated. The beginning wasn’t a full astrology, where there was like a full traditional natal, a full traditional horary, a full traditional electional, a full traditional magic, and there was a whole system and that was passed on. It was like extracting horary from Lilly and then passing that on. But then for a lot of the people you mentioned, they found or added something completely new, that wasn’t part of the lineage. And so, part of what makes something solid in its passing through the years is that it’s relatively complete. And that has not been possible until very recently.

CB: Yeah, that’s a good point.

AC: And so, that’s just a side point.

CB: Definitely. All right.

KS: These are wonderful side points. I can’t remember where we were in the month of May.

CB: I know. This is really tough, cuz I love you guys. I love our random astrological conversations.

KS: We’ve gotta hold it for late night chats at NORWAC.

AC: Here’s the transition. And Taurus is a fixed earth sign. And so, therefore always speaks to what endures over time. And it’s Venus-ruled. And so, we’re talking about what is of value, that’s passed down and maintained over time. And so, we were just giving you a very extended and detailed example of how Taurean dynamics work. Stuff’s in Taurus this month. Think about it.

CB: I love that.

KS: Nice segue.

CB: All right, New Moon in Taurus, we have covered that. Mercury goes into Taurus May 6. Not seeing anything else. The Moon keeps moving through. Mars opposes Jupiter at one point, around May 6, it looks like. So Jupiter’s getting that opposition, at 23 Sag, from Mars at 23 Gemini.

AC: Yeah, what do you guys think about that?

CB: I think Jupiter—it’s been so well-placed since it moved into Sagittarius. But now we’re starting to run into some problems and see whatever the drawbacks are of Jupiter in Sagittarius, now that it’s not only stationed retrograde but it’s getting that strong opposition from Mars at the same time. This is kind of like the, not worst-cast scenario for Jupiter, but certainly it’s not all like running through fields of roses at this point.

AC: Yeah, I think the Mars-Jupiter opposition—bad for Jupiter, good for Mars.

KS: Yeah.

CB: Right.

KS: Jupiter’s balloon gets a bit popped, but Mars gets amplified in some way or encouraged. When I see an opposition like this to Jupiter—with high-energy Mars and obviously over-the-top Jupiter—it makes me think of an elastic band, which is just getting stretched and stretched and stretched, and that idea of going over the top, doing too much, being pulled in different directions at the same time. There’s obviously some tension here because it is an opposition. So I think particularly if the mutable signs are strong in your chart—or those degrees 23 Gemini/23 Sag are strong in your chart—there is definitely a little bit of volatility here. I think it’s workable, not that it definitely has to have a positive outcome. Something has to cut or pop here. You know, the elastic kind of goes too far, I think, at this point.

AC: I think it’s totally workable. So here’s a good and a bad, from my perspective, for the Mars-Jupiter opposition, where it is. Good—you can have that martial fire backed by Jupiterian enthusiasm, right? Like just getting a lot done, keeping high spirits as you overcome little challenges, this and that. You know, the negative part, the negative side of the combination of Mars and Jupiter is the crusader, right? Adding the priestly authority to the martial destructiveness and getting up on your high horse, right? There’s definitely some high horse possibilities there with Sagittarius. The Twins riding the high horse, right?

KS: Good imagery.

AC: As a general rule with Mars, it’s always better if it’s not social. Direct Mars to accomplishing tasks, not accomplishing people.

KS: Yeah. I mean, as you were saying that, Austin, I’m like this would be really good for someone who had a big writing project or a big research project. Thinking specifically about a project for Mars in Gemini, something to do with words or ideas that were a little bit self-contained or solo.

AC: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And Jupiter can be used as an asset to Mars in this case and will help uplift Mars a little bit. For the purely Jupiterian peace and justice work, it’s a real impediment.

KS: There is a little bit of disagreement that comes out of this aspect, I think. Or a quality of disagreement or discord.

AC: Yeah. And it doesn’t help that Venus is tightly-squared Saturn while this aspect climaxes, which is also not good for social accord and for moods in general.

KS: Yeah.

CB: Yeah. Like what happens when the proselytizing of Jupiter in Sagittarius runs into heavy opposition from a disagreeing party, or a party that’s naturally running at cross-purposes to that.

AC: Yeah. Well, and just everybody’s in a bad mood, generally speaking, right, and you have that.

CB: And Brittany Ausland in the chat notes that the Moon crosses 26 Taurus pretty much almost the same time as the aspect.

AC: Yeah, so a little Caput Algol action. Don’t lose your head.

KS: Don’t lose your head. Yeah, I mean, I do find watching planets going over Algol—it’s just a good clue for when there’s a heightened energy about stress or anxiety or even inner mental anguish.

AC: You know, just on that note, one thing that I find really interesting about watching planets go over fixed stars—in contrast to planets aspecting each other—is when planets make tight and strong aspects to each other, it’s always there. Whereas one thing I find with fixed stars is if you go in the direction that that fixed star indicates—like if you go towards the ‘freaking out’ direction that Algol indicates—Algol will take you all the way home. But if you don’t take a step in that direction, I don’t see or feel a pull towards it. The fixed stars seem to be very on-and-off depending on whether you’re moving with them or not, whereas I see the planets’ aspects to the planets as having a much more consistent gravity.

CB: Definitely. All right, so let’s keep zooming through here. So that’s the Mars-Jupiter opposition. Oh, Kelly?

KS: Oh, I was just gonna say, yeah, I’m really excited to get to May 15, with the mid-month mood shift.

AC: And so, pretty much at the same time, as was mentioned, Venus has to square South Node-Saturn-Pluto, which is hard on the heart. You know, with Venus, you’re dealing with some of the relational consequences of whatever that South Node-Saturn-Pluto thing is doing. Generally not uplifting, but also, very temporary.

CB: Do you guys have a few keywords for Pluto that you come back to? Not to keep bringing us back to other far-afield topics, but the previous episode that I did before this one was Kenneth Miller talking about the history of Pluto and how astrologers didn’t seem to be on the same page about it for decades after its discovery and then suddenly were. But some issues surrounding that were that they seemed to be drawing in Scorpio and 8th house significations for Pluto, and the question of is our understanding and definition of Pluto as clear as it is for Uranus and Neptune, for example.

AC: So this is a big question.

CB: Right. I’m just throwing that out there.

KS: Yeah, I love that. This is very Pluto of you, Chris.

AC: Yeah, right? My keyword for Pluto is ‘Chris Brennan’. Let’s see. So I see Pluto as a modifier to the rest of the planets rather than as a planet in and of itself. It is the access point. You know, it is the one member of the Kuiper Belt and that whole layer of the solar system that crosses into our little system. And so, it’s that gateway or access point to the outer darkness in which the soul and other things dwell. I see a lot of gateways with Pluto, stumbling into a world you didn’t know existed, a secret world, which may be secret because it’s bad. Or it may be hidden for other reasons in the psyche; all of the layers that get kind of conflated into the subconscious or the unconscious. Pluto can also be accessing a criminal underworld. It can be the halls of power. It’s access. It’s things coming out of that secret world into your sunny realm, or traveling from your sunny realm into whatever little pocket dimension. Power and secrecy are certainly themes. I think the underworld symbolism is smack on the nose over and over and over again.

CB: All right, that was really good. But I do regret now already taking us on this digression.

AC: We can just stick with ‘Chris Brennan’ as the keyword.

KS: Yeah.

CB: Yeah. I wanna ask you if you have any keywords, Kelly, but we can either do that or we can move on. What do you want?

KS: I can be very brief. I mean, Austin, you made a beautiful point, yeah. I liked that you almost linked the underworld to ‘other world’, and I liked the idea of Pluto as a gateway. Because it does take you into a place—either internally or into a set of circumstances—that is going to be darker and more confronting and demand more from you. So very simple keywords—obsession, investigation, intense. There’s a depth. There is an introspective quality to Pluto. But I often see with clients triggers to do with extreme wealth or power or persuasiveness coming up with Pluto, but also, themes around trust and loyalty and betrayal. And I appreciate a lot of those words do crossover with maybe the Scorpio or the 8th house pattern, but they do seem relevant to Pluto, too.

AC: Yeah, I agree with every single one of those. That’s what I see when I look at Pluto stuff in a person’s chart by transit or natally.

KS: Yeah. There you go, Chris. We did it quickly.

CB: Thank you. That was really good. I always liked Alan White. He had this statement that Pluto takes small things and makes them really big, and it takes big things and makes them really small. Cuz, to me, as an archetype, that statement covers a lot of the things that you see when you get a Venus-Pluto aspect, and you see somebody getting really intensely obsessed with a relationship and taking something very small and blowing it out of all proportion. Or a Mercury-Pluto aspect and this sort of intensity with which they can do something mercurial and blow it into something very large.

KS: That’s a beautiful point.

CB: All right, let’s get back to the forecast. So you guys were saying, basically, that we have those few ingresses, and we have the New Moon at the beginning of the month. But then the big shifts don’t take place until about the middle of May, right?

AC: Well, Mercury’s ingress into Taurus is important.

CB: Yeah. I mean, we touched on that, right?

AC: So we’ve got that. Basically, that second week of the month is pretty stocked, right? We’ve got Mercury ingressing into Taurus, spending that time conjunct Uranus, while Jupiter and Saturn—excuse me, Jupiter and Mars make their opposition, and Venus squares the Saturn-Pluto-South Node ‘meat grinder’ component. And then we’re in the middle of the month.

CB: Okay. There we go, so mid-month. And Venus ingresses into Taurus on May 15. Right around the same time, we get Mars departing from Gemini and moving into Cancer by the 16th, right?

KS: Yes, depending on where you are. I mean, Eastern timezone, they both happen on the 15th. But 15th-16th, depending on where you are.

CB: Okay.

KS: Yeah, it just strikes me as a real change in tone going from Venus and Mars in a fire sign into an earth and water sign. So there’s slowing down or a deepening or a softening with Mars, but that’s not always a good thing with Mars. And it also makes me realize, too, that because we have no Mars retrograde this year, every six weeks, we get a different focus for Mars. And we are shifting in the middle of May for the first time since the end of February/early March. You know, we’ve now got a different Mars to guide us. And, I mean, Austin has given us a very poetic, now world famous name for what this six-week period is going to be. But it’s different. I mean, it will be less frantic in that scattered, excessive, mental quality of Mars in Gemini, but it will have its own challenges, for sure.

AC: Yeah, and Mars’ movement into Cancer puts it opposite by sign South Node-Saturn-Pluto in the same sign as the North Node. But that doesn’t really get exciting for a while. You know, there are 20 degrees between them on the 16th. And so, we really see the Mars firing all those dynamics up in June primarily. I think we’ll see some sizzle reels, some trailers, some emotively-packed trailers of what those dynamics might be, but that doesn’t really get moving until later. It’s not just on the ingress and it’s ‘go’ time.

CB: Yeah. I mean, certainly, though, the buildup starts at that point. Like this is the buildup for the summer fireworks and some of the clashes that we were anticipating with especially the Mars-Saturn and Mars-Pluto oppositions later in June.

AC: Or June-July parade.

CB: Right.

KS: Yeah. I mean, Mars in Cancer has much more of a moody quality. And I always find Mars in a water sign—maybe not every water sign, but maybe just Mars in Cancer. There is that idea of mood affecting motivation. So there is gonna be maybe more of a fluctuation around when you feel inspired and you get things done versus if you get a bit hurt or you feel a bit flat and then just being harder to motivate yourself with Mars in Cancer. And there’s a protective quality here with Mars in Cancer, too, that is less inclined to extend outwards, unless maybe it’s going on the attack, I guess. So there could be a little bit of an internal, sort of broody or reflective tone, I think. It’s just such a big change with Venus and Mars both going from hot, expressive signs to cool, dare I say, introspective signs. The second half of the month feels quite different, especially in this seven-day period before the Sun changes signs.

AC: Yeah, it’s definitely a shift.

CB: Cuz one of the contrasts is we’re going from a long period, like a month or two, where Mar—the primary thing it was running into was that opposition with Jupiter. But Jupiter’s not stopping anything Mars is trying to do. If anything, the problem with that opposition is Jupiter is just exacerbating what Mars wants to do in the first place and giving him free run to do whatever he wants and making him much bigger in doing whatever he wants. Whereas, here, once Mars goes into Cancer, it starts the buildup to that opposition with Saturn, and the sort of gridlock that you run into with a Mars-Saturn opposition, where you have opposing forces of fire and cold that are literally just running headlong into each other.

AC: Yeah. And that’s of course exacerbated by the nodes, right? The nodes complicate the territory. One of the simplest you could say is that the nodes make clarity difficult because the very reason we calculate nodes and what they show are when eclipses happen. And eclipses are events of shadow. And shadow means not being able to see something because it’s in the shadows. And so, the visibility around the nodes is always much trickier. And so, to a certain degree it’s like, oh, the last thing we need is a lack of clear visibility when we’re already trying to do a Mars-Saturn opposition well. But that Venus in Taurus is saving grace to a certain degree, especially once it clears Uranus. It’s interesting. The conjunction with Uranus is really interesting. It should pop off Uranian events more than any of the other previous conjunctions because Uranus in Taurus is in a Venus-ruled sign.

KS: Yeah.

AC: And so, it’s conjoining its ruler. Maximum amount of ability to just make stuff happen. But then after Uranus and Venus do their thing, and Venus is just in Taurus for another 20-something degrees, then we have the sort of classical Venus in Taurus as a stabilizing, luxury, enabling factor, which helps mellow down the ambient strife from whatever Mars early-in-and-coming-up-on opposition with Saturn creates.

CB: Right. And notice right after Venus starts separating from that conjunction with Uranus, we get the Full Moon in Scorpio on May 18, it looks like. So there’s like a culmination of events in Scorpio happening. And then just a few days after that, we get the nearly simultaneous ingress of the Sun and Mercury into Gemini, where they conjoin. And we have the Mercury cazimi at 0° of Gemini on May 21.

KS: Yes. I just remembered something on the Full Moon weekend. As you were saying that, Chris, I was like, “Yeah, that’s the big weekend in May. The May 18th-19th, which is the Scorpio Full Moon and the Venus conjunct Uranus aspect.”

CB: Right.

KS: I’ll actually be teaching in New York that weekend. I’m doing a progressions workshop for the NCGR community there, which I forgot to mention earlier. Cuz I keep thinking, “Oh, that’s right, The Scorpio Full Moon is in my 9th house, and I’m gonna be traveling to another country to teach.” Like no-brainer basic timing astrology. But then the energy shifts, yeah, once we get to the 21st, and the Sun and Mercury almost hold hands as they cross into Gemini. And that’s a totally different quality of influences. I mean, we go from the depths of Scorpio and then straight up to Gemini.

CB: Yeah, I really love that Sun-Mercury conjunction in Gemini. And that period, with Mercury in Gemini and then Venus in Taurus, actually opens up a great period. Leisa and I just recorded The Auspicious Elections episode for this coming month, yesterday, and saw that all of the great electional charts are taking place towards the end of May because you can really take advantage of Mercury being in Gemini and Venus being in her home sign of Taurus during the course of the latter part of the month.

AC: Yeah, I really wish Mercury wasn’t combust for as long as it is in Gemini. You know, it being in its own sign saves some of that, but it’s still not a visible Mercury. And that’s not saying that it can’t anchor some good elections. I found myself looking at elections for that period just wishing, “Get a few more degrees away from the Sun, buddy. Can we have that, too?”

KS: Oh, yeah, it’s always the picking and choosing, right?

AC: Yep. But yeah, I mean, those are the best things in the sky, absolutely. That’s what there is to build around.

KS: Yeah. Did you have an electional chart to share, Chris?

CB: Yeah, I might as well just throw it out now while we’re talking about it. So a few days later, actually, one of the charts that we highlighted as the best chart—one of the best charts for the month of May, for electional purposes—is on May 25, basically around six o’clock in the morning, just after sunrise. So make it so that in your city—whatever your city is—just make it so that the ascendant is in Gemini, probably around 8°, and you’ll end up with a chart on this date that has Mercury conjunct the ascendant at 8° of Gemini, the Sun also in Gemini, just a few degrees above the ascendant, making it a day chart. And then the Moon on this date is in Aquarius. And depending on your timezone, basically, in Denver and all timezones east of that, you’ll be able to get the Moon still applying to a sextile with Jupiter, with the Moon being at 21 Aquarius in the ninth whole sign house, applying to a sextile with Jupiter at 21 Sagittarius in the seventh whole sign house. If you’re west of Denver, you may not be able to get that. But if you back this election up a day and just do May 24, you can still get the Moon applying to Jupiter. So this is a great Mercury election because it basically has Mercury ruling the ascendant, in the 1st house, in its home sign in Gemini. It’s true that it is under the beams because of its proximity to the Sun, but because it’s in its own domicile that acts as a mitigating condition. Mars is no longer in Gemini, which is nice. It’s moved over into Cancer, so it’s no longer in the same sign as Mercury. Mercury has that opposition from Jupiter, which is helpful. And it’s not quite moved too close to the square with Neptune yet, even though that is still forming. Let’s see. It’s not a good chart for financial matters because it places Mars in the 2nd house in a day chart. But it is great for all other Mercury-related activities like writing, speaking, communications, and other things like that. So it’s also not a bad chart for 7th house matters with Jupiter in the 7th, in a day chart, in Sagittarius.

AC: The 10th house doesn’t look too bad either. You’ve got angular Jupiter in Sag ruling the 10th.

CB: Yeah, so it’s kind of not a bad chart for partnership-related things. In Denver, I think we picked this specific time so that we could make the midheaven kind of roughly configured to Venus within 3°, to kind of mitigate its 12th house position. Cuz it’s the only planet that otherwise we would like to be in better shape, but isn’t in the 12th there. But if you can just get the degree of an angle to be aspecting Venus within 3°, then you can kind of bring Venus out of its 12th house position a little bit. And this is actually taking place, I think, around the time of NORWAC, right?

KS: I was just thinking whoever’s up early on Saturday morning at NORWAC can use this chart, or if anyone still happens to be up from the night before.

CB: Yeah.

KS: That will not be me. I don’t think I’ll be either up early or still up. I’ll probably be asleep.

CB: Definitely. And I’ve used elections like this before to start writing projects, like for a paper or a book or even a blog post or something like that, cuz Mercury in Gemini is just really well-suited for something like that. All right, so that’s the election for this month. We’ve got three—actually five other elections that we found for May of 2019, which are in The Auspicious Elections Podcast, which is available to patrons who sign up for our page on Patreon, which you can find out more information about at TheAstrologyPodcast.com/Subscribe. All right, so that’s the election for the month. That brings us back. So we’re in the lighter part of Mercury, and we are in the later part of this episode. So what’s some of the stuff that’s happening in the last part of the month that we need to hit?

KS: We might as well just give people a heads up about the Moon in Capricorn period. I think every month we should be paying attention, or people may already be paying attention to the Moon in Capricorn being especially melancholy because of the Saturn-South Node-Pluto pileup.

CB: Okay. Yeah, I mean, with all of that having stationed recently.

AC: Sorry, go ahead.

CB: I was just saying, especially with all of that having stationed retrograde there recently.

KS: Yeah.

AC: Yeah. And so, even though we don’t get a climax of whatever the Mars-Saturn thing is for a while, Mars and Saturn are both cardinal now. And so, that means that whenever we’re looking at the Moon’s passes through cardinal signs, we’re gonna be making oppositions or hard aspects to all of the malefics at once. Which is kind of good for the benefics, right? If we’re looking at fixed signs, the only things to aspect are Uranus and Venus. If we’re looking at mutable signs, right, there’s nobody who’s particularly ornery. But it begins a challenging period for cardinal signs and the transiting cardinal Moon, most especially for Cancer and Capricorn.

KS: Yeah, I think that’s a beautiful point. Because really we will get the Moon opposite Mars here early in Capricorn, and then the Moon slides straight into the conjunction. That’s a really great point, Austin, I think. Just keeping your wits about you on these cardinal Moon sign days.

AC: Yeah. Well, and just to jump back to what you said about the melancholy of the Moon hitting Saturn-Pluto-South Node, I actually had a friend just email me or private message me a while ago and was like, “Wow, the melancholy from the Moon’s movement through Capricorn is real, huh?” And yeah, Saturn’s melancholic. So Saturn—on an emotional level, as far as emotional primary colors, in terms of negative emotions—Saturn is sadness or depression. And then Mars is anger, right? And so, that’s part of why it can be difficult when Mars and Saturn are together because it’s being both angry and sad. You know, it’s one thing to be angry, right? Like you can, okay, take deep breaths or whatever, or just be sad. But angry and sad at the same time is harder. You know, that’s like everybody’s least favorite mix-up or mash-up, as it were. I was trying to think in terms of frozen yogurt flavors being combined, but it didn’t come together. But that’s where my mind went.

KS: I don’t even know what a Saturn flavor would be.

AC: What?

KS: What would a Saturn flavor be?

AC: I don’t know. What frozen yogurt tastes like sadness?

CB: Charcoal.

KS: Charcoal. It would be so bland.

AC: Charcoal and gasoline. I don’t know.

KS: I don’t know. But, I mean, that’s hilarious.

AC: We don’t have to follow this frozen yogurt metaphor.

KS: I just got very curious. You know, Mars, you can pick chili or something with heat as a flavor. But I was genuinely like, “I don’t know what flavors would be Saturn.” We’re gonna have to have people write in and let us know their sadness flavors.

AC: Yeah, bitter, sometimes cold, not cool like yogurt cold. But astringent. Thank you, Jack March.

KS: Jack read my mind.

AC: I was looking for astringent.

KS: Yeah, astringent. Bitter. So you can’t really have ice cream, cuz you’d have to have it without the sugar.

AC: I don’t know. Could we do star anise and—no, I don’t know.

KS: Or coffee. Good call.

AC: If this serves me coffee, I will be delighted.

KS: Coffee. I mean, it’s an impact in that it energizes, a Mars thing, but the taste of coffee is quite bitter.

AC: And it’s drying.

KS: It is drying, so that works with Saturn.

AC: Actually that works with both. They both dry.

KS: Yeah. I mean, cuz I did notice the Moon in Capricorn period at the end of April more so than I normally do. And of course I was reminding myself that Saturn had just stationed retrograde. And so, I think that melancholy quality is further enhanced by the retrograde of Saturn. And then, as you said, Austin, we’re not just sad and flat, but we’re also gonna be angry since we have Mars in Cancer from the middle of May until early July.

AC: Yeah. And it’s important to notice that anger isn’t always full-blown rage, right? Like irritability, being irritated is basically just like level one anger.

KS: Yeah.

AC: You know, when you’re like, “Things aren’t going that well, and they did that,” and it’s super irritating, right, it’s that combination that makes those two challenging to deal with.

KS: Yeah, short tempered. Being short tempered and under pressure, vice versa.

AC: Yeah, yeah, that’s a great way to put it, too.

CB: So it might be a good idea to start paying attention to that sector of your chart—as we get the buildup as soon as Mars ingresses in the middle of the month into Cancer, and starts moving into that opposition very slowly with Saturn—for some of those themes to start coming up, and maybe start being a little more cautious in that area of your life.

KS: Yeah, and I think one of you mentioned this. The flip side of that is things get a little better for Jupiter as soon as Mars moves out of Gemini.

AC: Yeah.

KS: Because Jupiter is not dealing with the Saturn problems because it’s in a blind spot, and Jupiter no longer has that ‘thorn in its side’ kind of energy of Mars being in the sign opposite.

CB: Yeah. And that’s actually one of the last aspects I see of the month, Mercury opposing Jupiter around May 30th or 31st, from 20 Gemini to 20 Sagittarius.

KS: Yes.

CB: And that’s basically how we close off the month.

KS: Yeah, the only other aspect that I might throw in just to get you guys’ take on it—there is a trine from Venus to Saturn with a lot of dignity, because obviously Venus is in her home sign, Saturn is in his home sign. I don’t know. I kind of like that for a bit of stabilizing, grounded energy.

AC: I think so.

KS: Yeah, I wasn’t sure if you guys agreed or had a different take.

CB: Yeah, definitely. A trine between those two, almost quasi-earthy planets taking place in earth signs—that’s a very grounded and stabilizing trine. And it nicely helps to liven up and smooth out Saturn a little bit in a way that it’s otherwise not a lot of this time in Capricorn, as it’s retrograde conjunct Pluto and the South Node.

AC: Yeah, I would also look at it that way, primarily. That’s helped with the Saturn stuff.

KS: Absolutely. I mean, we didn’t harp on it a lot, but Venus in Taurus is one of the little blessings from the sky this month of May. And we have almost four weeks of her. I’m actually excited to have her go over Uranus because I’m interested to see how the Uranus stuff develops or emerges with the Venus-Uranus conjunction. I’m interested to see news headlines when that comes out, but also, the personal life developments. But yeah, that Venus trine Saturn, very end of the month. The Moon is actually in Taurus on the same day with Uranus. So that might take off. I don’t know whether we get more Uranus or more Taurus, but there’s a little bit of stability coming in there. It’s the week after NORWAC. So I sort of think I’ll be home in my garden, and I’ll be honoring Venus there.

AC: I know, it’s like the day after NORWAC. Yeah, I guess it’s a couple days. Yeah, I like that. When I talk about the ‘malefic party’, I’ve never said, “Oh, it begins in May, as soon as Mars moves into Taurus.”

KS: No, you never said that.

AC: I’m sorry, Mars moves into Cancer. You know, if we’re looking for where the trouble is, I would say wait until Venus moves out of Taurus. Cuz Venus in Taurus is just gonna be in the sky. It’s gonna rise once a day. It’s gonna culminate once a day. And so, we have this stabilizing, cohering power. And then when Venus moves into Gemini, we lose that, and we lose any configuration to the difficulty access here. And that’s where the ‘malefic party’ will get to shine all on its own.

KS: Yeah, so enjoy Venus in Taurus while we have her.

AC: Yeah, and stabilize things.

CB: Yeah, that’s an opportunity to stabilize things and to firm things up before some of the tumultuousness of the next month-and-a-half.

AC: Yep.

KS: Cool.

CB: Good advice. All right, nice. Well, I think that brings us pretty much to the end. Those are the last alignments of the month, and at that point, we’re getting into June and other stuff. Yeah, cuz Mercury changes signs really fast afterwards. Then the Moon goes in very early in June. And then we start getting the buildup to all of that.

AC: Yeah, there’s a very clear shift in that direction. One thing—two things really quick, just to hit again, that happen in May. One, the opposition between Mercury and Jupiter also has a partner in Neptune. Neptune is tightly-squared both of them while that occurs.

CB: Yeah.

AC: And so, there’s a note of confusion or lack of clarity, or just very big dreaming that can’t be ignored there. It might be possible to get excited about ideas that aren’t gonna happen then, or ideas that are gonna take a lot of energy to actually make happen. You know, Neptune gives you that biggest of all possible circles and possibilities, which don’t always work out. And then just one note on that Full Moon in Scorpio, with Venus conjunct Uranus. That could be a little crazy.

KS: Oh, it’s gonna be crazy.

AC: It’s gonna be a little crazy. We didn’t give that one the ‘crazy stamp’. It could be crazy good. That Venus-Uranus for some people is gonna pop out some crazy good stuff. It’s also gonna pop out some crazy bad stuff, and it’s also gonna just pop out some crazy stuff. But crazy, tending in many different directions Full Moon.

KS: Yeah, it’s a pretty dramatic weekend, for sure. So make sure people have that marked in their diary.

CB: And it’s right after that shift of Mars into Cancer as well. So that’s like an element of it that’s tinging things as well.

AC: Mm-hmm.

KS: Of course.

AC: Right? Cuz Mars rules Scorpio. And that’s actually a mutual reception, now that you point it out.

KS: Yeah.

CB: Right. Good times. All right, guys.

KS: And then we’ll see an Algol activation. So yeah, take care. Be safe. Don’t lose your head.

AC: Yeah, or maybe stow it somewhere safe. Put it somewhere where you’re gonna remember where you hid it, so you can recover it intact later.

CB: Right.

KS: Beautiful. And if you’re in New York, I hope to see you in person that weekend, and we can lose our heads in a good way together.

CB: What are the dates on that, again?

KS: It’s May 18. It’s just a full-day workshop on Saturday. I think it’s 10:00 till 4:30 or 5:00, through the NCGR. And if you Google ‘Kelly Surtees New York Astrology’, I think it comes right up, or if you put ‘NCGR’ in there. And I can get the link actually, if we want that in the show notes.

CB: Sure. Yeah, so just search for ‘New York NCGR chapter’ and then you’ll be able to find out more information about it. Okay, cool. So you’ll be there. We’re gonna all be at NORWAC. We’re gonna do that Q&A. Everybody be sure to send us questions. Send us good questions. Like think of the best question you could possibly ask us, that would make for a good discussion topic about astrology or something related to astrology, and we will answer some of the best ones we get. That’s gonna be a lot of fun. I’m actually looking forward to seeing both of you. I’ve been hanging out with friends here.

KS: You’re getting a tease, a taste.

CB: Yeah. Well, hanging out with Kenneth and Sam Reynolds this week reminded me of what it’s like to be at a conference. And having the new studio and being able to have conversations here in person has reminded me of what it’s actually like hanging out with astrologers in person and talking and getting into crazy conversations. So that’s gonna be a really fun week that I’m looking forward to.

KS: Yeah. So we’ll see each other in person probably before we talk online again. I’m not sure what we’re doing, scheduling with June, but we’ll see each other again.

AC: Yeah, in like three-and-a-half weeks.

CB: Yeah. All right, cool, guys. Well, I’m really excited. I’m looking forward to everything. Is there anything else we need to mention really quickly before we wrap up? Do you have anything, Austin?

AC: Yeah, just a quick reminder, a talk on the Jupiter-Saturn cycle online on May 5. Tickets for As Above 2019, Portland event, with me and Gordon White on September 14. 85% sold out. It’s only been up for a little over a week. If you’re gonna come, you gotta get in now. And the Sphere + Sundry Venus exaltation series that I elected goes live on May 2. And come see us at NORWAC. Actually no more tickets available. So we’ll see you all at NORWAC.

KS: You’ve already got yours.

CB: Yeah, so NORWAC is sold out. Laura, the organizer, did tell me that there is a waiting list. So if anybody’s really wanting to get into NORWAC, there’s some off chance that you might be able to get a ticket if you go to the NORWAC, Northwest Astrology Conference website, which I think is norwac.net or something like that. You can find Laura’s email address. And she said just to email her to be put on the waiting list in case some tickets free up. Because sometimes people cancel at the last minute and then there’s extra tickets floating around. Otherwise, we look forward to seeing everybody at NORWAC, here in a few weeks. And yeah, I guess that’s it for this episode.

KS: Yeah, we’ll see them at the live podcast episode we’re recording.

CB: Yeah, that’s gonna be so much fun. And Cam White—Cameron White’s gonna be there. He’s gonna help us set up. Last time we were there, we got lucky, and your husband was there, Kelly, and he saved us in setting up at the last minute.

KS: I think Tony helped out, too, yeah.

CB: Yeah.

KS: Cam is amazing. Don’t let him and I behind the bar because we will have everyone in a very merry mood.

CB: Yeah, that’s what I heard. And I think Cam is a DJ, and he’s gonna try to do the dance party at NORWAC. There’s gonna be so many new people that are having their first conferences. Do you guys have any advice for astrologers, at their first conference? I would say get into the bookstore early. Cuz there’s gonna be a huge, amazing bookstore with thousands of astrology books and lots of titles you’ve never seen. But sometimes if you hit the bookstore early, you can get some of the best ones right at the top before they sell out.

KS: Totally. I would say pace yourself. And sometimes there are great conversations that happen between the lectures in the hallway. So make a little bit of room for that, if you can. Sorry, Austin.

AC: Oh, I was just gonna say crew up. Having a few conference buddies is a lot of fun. You can go around and do stuff together and see lectures together. You know, squad or crew up, you’ll enjoy it.

KS: Yeah.

CB: Oh, yeah, and try to make the effort. Kelly, you and I met—actually everything that’s happened in our friendship over the past decade happened because you came up to me at NORWAC in New Orleans in 2012 and just started chatting me up.

KS: UAC, yeah.

CB: Yeah. So that’s actually my best piece of advice to anybody going to the conference. Make the effort to reach out to other people. Or if you see somebody that seems like they’re not connecting with other people, go up to them and introduce yourself. And that sort of networking is really important at conferences, and I hope everybody does that. Cuz that’s part of what helps to ensure that everybody has a good time, just meeting other astrologers. And it may be more or less difficult for different people, so try to make the effort. And sometimes if you, it can lead to crazy things, like Austin and Kelly and I doing this conference now—or doing this podcast now for years.

AC: Yeah. And as an addendum to my advice, if you’ve got a couple of people you’re hanging out with, and you see somebody lonely, like bring them along.

KS: Yeah.

CB: Yeah.

KS: Absolutely. And that’s a really good point. Everything that we do together now is because we met at a conference.

CB: Yeah. And, Austin, you and I met, cuz I invited you out to the first Project Hindsight conference, just having exchanged a few messages with you on MySpace back in the day.

AC: Yep.

CB: Yeah, so everybody try to do that. Try to make an effort. And hopefully, especially for the podcast listeners, we’re hoping that it can be a good event at the start of the conference to introduce other people that listen to the podcast, and right off the bat, you know that you have something that you share in common. So that’s why I’m looking forward to it. All right, guys, that’s it for this episode of The Astrology Podcast. Thanks everybody for listening. Thanks to our audience. We had like 30 or 40 people in here for the live recording of this. We appreciate all your comments. Sorry if we couldn’t get to all of them. I was trying to keep track as we go. But yeah, thanks for joining us for that. Thanks to all the patrons who support the podcast and who have supported us through 200 episodes. I did the 200th episode this month. I am now moved into the new studio, and we are starting to do in-person interviews. So there should be more of that in the future. All right, so thanks everyone for listening, and we will see you next time.

KS: Bye, everyone.