Deborah Houlding and Whole Sign House Denialism

• 2 years ago

In episode 386 Chris Brennan addresses a controversial lecture that was recently given by Deborah Holding where she denied the historical existence of the whole sign house system in ancient astrology.

Holding claims that whole sign houses did not exist in ancient astrology, and that the concept was only invented in the 1990s by Robert Hand and Robert Schmidt of Project Hindsight.

Chris sets out to present evidence that contradicts Holding’s claims, demonstrating that there is ample evidence for the existence of whole sign houses in ancient astrology, and to provide a commentary on the distortions and misrepresentations made in her lecture.

During the course of the commentary Chris emphasizes the importance of separating the historical debate from the current practice of astrology, and criticizes Holding for denying the historical existence of whole sign houses based on personal preferences rather than objective evidence.

Chris also discusses the concept of whole sign house denialism, which is the attempt to deny the existence of whole sign houses in ancient astrology and dismiss or suppress any historical evidence that it existed, as well why it is important to address false claims in order to set the historical record straight.

This is a recording of a livestream that was broadcast on February 9, 2023.

It is best to watch the video version on YouTube, because there are lots of visual elements, although most of the information is contained in the audio.

This episode is available in both audio and video versions below.

Timestamps

• 00:00:00 Introduction
• 00:01:37 Deborah Houlding’s lecture
• 00:01:37 The central false claim Houlding makes
• 00:05:14 Whole sign house denialism
• 00:08:45 Separating history from current practice
• 00:11:35 An extreme view
• 00:13:26 The need to address this
• 00:16:28 Not eager for this debate
• 00:19:42 Responses to her lecture
• 00:21:33 Different scholars saying DH is wrong
• 00:27:01 Fair use in this commentary video
• 00:28:59 My main treatment of house division in ancient astrology
• 00:33:35 Sneak diss
• 00:38:00 Commentary on DH’s lecture begins
• 00:40:42 Quoting Co-Star instead of the source she’s debating
• 00:44:42 Ignoring the Indian tradition
• 00:45:15 Claiming whole sign houses “didn’t exist” prior to 1990s
• 00:53:00 Downplaying the equal house system as well as WSH
• 00:55:44 Intermission
• 00:58:07 Intermission ends
• 00:58:47 Rhetorical tactic: make false claim then say responses are “emotional”
• 01:01:30 She “doesn’t like to talk about personalities” then proceeds to do so
• 01:02:38 Blaming Project Hindsight
• 01:03:32 Houlding claims not “a single historical astrologer” mentions WSH
• 01:05:35 Downplaying the work of historian James Holden
• 01:09:20 Holden’s 1982 paper on WSH
• 01:13:44 Sextus Empiricus defines WSH in 2nd century
• 01:20:45 Isaac Argyrus defines WSH
• 01:22:45 Ancient charts that use WSH
• 01:24:41 Prevalence of WSH in ancient horoscopes
• 01:25:36 Vettius Valens WSH example
• 01:27:14 Dorotheus of Sidon WSH charts
• 01:29:44 Rob Hand coining the phrase “whole sign houses”
• 01:30:48 Claims WSH only used abstractly
• 01:35:48 Earlier discoveries of WSH before Project Hindsight
• 01:45:00 French book on WSH from 1961
• 01:50:42 Intermission
• 01:55:40 HD trying to suppress WSH
• 01:57:26 Ali A Olomi on Arabic texts using WSH
• 02:00:31 Masha’allah using WSH in horary
• 02:02:13 Possible Morinus example of WSH?
• 02:05:05 DH falsely claims “most” of Valens translated before Hindsight
• 02:07:00 Revival of 17th century Lilly tradition in 1980s
• 02:09:38 DH only studied traditional for few years before Hindsight
• 02:10:40 Tensions between the Hellenistic and Renaissance traditions
• 02:17:03 DH displaced from center of traditional movement
• 02:20:18 Robert Hand and attempt to undermine his credibility
• 02:24:45 Robert Schmidt’s background
• 02:30:29 Misleading statement about Zoller’s time at Hindsight
• 02:35:28 Claims Hindsight “didn’t ask questions”
• 02:40:10 Animosity between Schmidt and Houlding
• 02:42:47 Claims that nothing was up for discussion
• 02:44:15 Falsely claims Hindsight said there were no quadrant houses
• 02:46:37 Projection
• 02:47:32 Modern astrologers becoming traditional
• 02:49:18 Falsely claims Demetra very quickly became Hellenistic
• 02:52:42 Intermission
• 02:55:20 False claims about Demetra continued
• 02:57:06 Hypocrisy when comparing traditional movements
• 02:58:48 False modesty
• 03:00:02 Attempts to portray WSH as American phenomenon
• 03:05:34 Falsely claims Hindsight “didn’t care what was in the Arabic texts”
• 03:07:57 Falsely claims Hindsight “didn’t care about the Babylonian texts”
• 03:12:12 Hindsight interest in the Hebrew and Vedic traditions
• 03:13:50 Schmidt’s early versus later thinking
• 03:16:10 Falsely claims no comparisons with Abu Ma’shar
• 03:18:50 Misleading graphic showing Chris’ Wikipedia edit history
• 03:23:04 DH slide claims “zero” evidence for WSH in ancient texts
• 03:23:31 CB on the title and content of his 2015 WSH talk
• 03:33:09 CB on DH’s aggressive behavior, mischaracterizations, and sneak disses
• 03:36:15 DH on the historical existence of whole sign houses
• 03:37:00 CB on the historical existence of whole sign houses
• 03:46:07 (Slide 7) The Co-Star Astrology App
• 03:46:57 DH on why the discussion of house division matters
• 03:47:47 CB on “lazy houses” and tables of houses
• 03:48:59 DH on the history of Co-Star
• 03:50:04 CB on the history of Co-Star
• 03:52:32 DH on the futility of her lecture and the dominance of whole-sign houses
• 03:53:03 CB on Houlding’s emotional moment of hate for WSH
• 03:55:09 (Slide 8) Arguments for Using Whole Sign Houses
• 03:56:06 DH on Hindsight translation and houses in Valens
• 03:56:34 CB on Hindsight translation and houses in Valens
• 03:57:54 DH on the quality of Hindsight’s translation of Valens
• 03:58:33 CB on the quality of Hindsight’s translation of Valens
• 04:00:09 DH on Hindsight and book 2 of Valens
• 04:00:40 CB on Hindsight and book 2 of Valens
• 04:01:50 (Slide 9) Additional Arguments for Using WSH
• 04:02:06 CB on existence of tables of houses in Hellenistic era
• 04:02:57 DH on lack of MC degrees in surviving charts
• 04:03:20 CB on the lack of ASC degrees in surviving charts
• 04:11:17 (Slide 10) Book 9 of Valens
• 04:14:25 CB on example charts in Valens
• 04:16:56 DH on the notion of using WSH for topics and quadrant strength
• 04:17:12 CB on the notion of using WSH for topics and quadrant strength
• 04:23:06 DH on Schmidt and Book 9 of Valens
• 04:23:16 CB on Schmidt and Book 9 of Valens
• 04:25:38 DH on Book 9 of Valens
• 04:26:56 CB on equal houses in Book 9 of Valens
• 04:37:00 DH on whether Valens used WSH
• 04:37:08 CB on DH assuming information from a single quote
• 04:37:51 DH on Valens’s house cusps quote
• 04:39:20 CB on Valens’s house cusps quote
• 04:43:44 DH on Schmidt’s views on WSH
• 04:46:06 CB on Schmidt’s views on WSH
• 05:00:28 DH on Robert Hand proposing WSH
• 05:01:03 CB on Robert Hand proposing WSH
• 05:03:43 (PDF) Houlding’s Annotated Version of Valens
• 05:04:09 CB on DH’s approach to annotating Valens
• 05:05:04 DH on Valens’s approach to calculating the ASC & MC
• 05:06:25 CB on Valens’s approach to calculating the ASC & MC
• 05:11:03 CB on DH’s annotations and the conflation of different books
• 05:19:24 (Slide 11) Chart Examples in Ancient Astrology
• 05:20:47 CB on visual chart examples in translations
• 05:26:05 (Slide 12) Example Page from “Greek Horoscopes”
• 05:26:34 CB on DH assuming Valens’s intentions
• 05:27:22 DH on Alcabitius in Ptolemy
• 05:29:05 CB on Rhetorius using WSH and quadrant houses
• 05:34:36 (Slide 13/14) The Usage and Symbolism of WSH
• 05:34:54 CB on DH’s argument against WSH as the oldest house system
• 05:36:58 DH on her book on houses and the twelve-letter alphabet
• 05:37:39 CB on the conflation of the twelve-letter alphabet with WSH
• 05:40:15 DH on the “controversy” surrounding her book
• 05:40:51 CB on the “controversy” surrounding DH’s book
• 05:42:27 DH on separating topics and angular strength between house systems
• 05:42:49 CB on Houlding’s personal conceptualization of the houses
• 05:45:00 DH on aspects between houses and importance local space
• 05:46:44 CB on DH’s personal conceptualization of the houses (cont.)
• 05:47:13 DH on the significance of local space
• 05:53:58 (Slide 15) Fundamentals of Quadrant House Division
• 05:55:04 CB praising DH’s personal conceptualization of the houses (cont.)
• 05:56:33 DH on the rationale for the meanings of the houses
• 05:57:11 CB on the rationale for the meanings of the houses
• 05:57:41 DH on the local space framework and WSH
• 05:58:33 CB on the local space framework and WSH
• 05:59:20 DH on calculating the houses at extreme latitudes
• 06:00:34 CB on calculating the houses at extreme latitudes
• 06:01:24 DH on calculating the houses at extreme latitudes (cont.)
• 06:02:06 (Slide 16) Planetary Motion
• 06:02:40 CB on the main point of Houlding’s lecture
• 06:04:18 DH on primary motion and WSH
• 06:05:17 CB on primary motion in WSH
• 06:06:37 DH saying WSH is not a “real” house system
• 06:07:52 CB on the main point of Houlding’s lecture (cont.)
• 06:09:51 CB on Houlding’s claim that WSH is “lazy”
• 06:11:11 (Slide 17/18) Chart Examples Across Traditional Astrology
• 06:15:45 DH on WSH in Vedic astrology
• 06:16:44 CB on WSH in Vedic astrology
• 06:20:26 DH on the nonagesimal point in delineation
• 06:20:52 CB on the nonagesimal point in delineation
• 06:26:48 Conclusion
• 06:27:15 Whole sign house denialism, historical debates, academics, etc.
• 06:31:05 Robert Hand’s 2007 article on WSH
• 06:33:28 Concluding notes
• 06:39:51 Relevant astrological correspondences with the WSH denialism issue
• 06:42:38 Ending

Watch the Video Version of This Episode

The video recording of this livestream is available on YouTube:

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Transcript

A full transcript of this episode is available: Episode 386 transcript

Listen to the Audio Version of This Episode

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